god, part 2 Options

[*CEP*]

So yeah...the debate continues.. have fun.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[abberdabber]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

you tell me.



***What of people who do not believe in God? The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in them, does that mean they're immoral then? I'm confused.
Wow. So everything is black and white, no shades of gray in between? No exceptions? And you said that someone else was closed minded?
Does God believe in exceptions, I wonder? All the good that non-believers do is in vain, and yet non-believers will continue to do good. I wonder why? What strives non-believers, do you know?
There isn't a Holy Spirit in them to guide non-believers to the right decisions, so that means GOOD non-believers are virtuous people in essence. Will God turn away virtuous people even though they do not believe? ***

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..."

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

***You mean David and Goliath (a simple example) isn't a story? My Christian friend gave me copies of some things to read when I was in junior high. I found them highly entertaining and that it teaches lessons of virtues, which is a good thing. But like I said, it's not anything I don't already know.***

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

***And what of those who do not read the Bible? Are you saying that they do not have their lives mapped out? Or maybe that they're lost? It doesn't seem like that's the case with me or any other agnostics I know in real life.
But I understand that not everyone think the same way. ***

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.



***Yes, there are many great proverbs and teachings from the Bible, I will not argue against that. But other religions teaches those same lessons as well. There's nothing from the Bible that I can't get from other religions, or from learning the lesson myself in real life. ***

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us.

Matthew 17: 22
"... When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.'... "

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions..

Revelation 7:15-17

"... 'They are before the throne of GOD and serve him night and day in His temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shephard, he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.' .. "


gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

[ryfitaDF]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass.  So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

  you tell me.

that's like asking a cowboy's fan who's gunna win the superbowl. quoting the bible to defend god. don't make sense. convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.

[iheartsimba]

this goes out to FAE.. so here ya go.

**Is God all powerful in the sense of giving miracles?**

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

you tell me.



***What of people who do not believe in God? The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in them, does that mean they're immoral then? I'm confused.
Wow. So everything is black and white, no shades of gray in between? No exceptions? And you said that someone else was closed minded?
Does God believe in exceptions, I wonder? All the good that non-believers do is in vain, and yet non-believers will continue to do good. I wonder why? What strives non-believers, do you know?
There isn't a Holy Spirit in them to guide non-believers to the right decisions, so that means GOOD non-believers are virtuous people in essence. Will God turn away virtuous people even though they do not believe? ***

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..."

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

***You mean David and Goliath (a simple example) isn't a story? My Christian friend gave me copies of some things to read when I was in junior high. I found them highly entertaining and that it teaches lessons of virtues, which is a good thing. But like I said, it's not anything I don't already know.***

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

***And what of those who do not read the Bible? Are you saying that they do not have their lives mapped out? Or maybe that they're lost? It doesn't seem like that's the case with me or any other agnostics I know in real life.
But I understand that not everyone think the same way. ***

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.



***Yes, there are many great proverbs and teachings from the Bible, I will not argue against that. But other religions teaches those same lessons as well. There's nothing from the Bible that I can't get from other religions, or from learning the lesson myself in real life. ***

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us.

Matthew 17: 22
"... When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.'... "

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions..

Revelation 7:15-17

"... 'They are before the throne of GOD and serve him night and day in His temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shephard, he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.' .. "


gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

hm. so you are trying to convince poeple to beleive in god...by using the bible? that makes no sense

[abberdabber]

LoL .. Well you guys obviously didnt read back to the previous posts did you ? didnt think so If you're going to quote someone at least know whats goin on..

**convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.**

Well maybe if I was trying to convince anyone of anything, I would be worried about making sense to all of you.. but im not.. the decision is all on you

[*CEP*]

LoL .. Well you guys obviously didnt read back to the previous posts did you ? didnt think so If you're going to quote someone at least know whats goin on..

**convincing somone with what they believe is a lie already. good job.**

Well maybe if I was trying to convince anyone of anything, I would be worried about making sense to all of you.. but im not.. the decision is all on you

Then exactly WHAT are you trying to do then?

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[abberdabber]

* this will be the last entry submitted *

fae wanted to know those snippets of questions, "where do un-believers go if they've been good?, Does God create miracles?, are un-believers that dont read the word immoral people?, ect*
and i simply told her the viewpoint in which i hold on such questions.

[queen]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

[princess2113]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

not everything in that book matches the Bible so u mite wanna check the Bible to see.....

oh and NONE of the Christians here want to convince anyone of anything we r trying to tell u abt Him...if u had read ANY of the other pages u'd prolly see that b/c its like the 100th time ive said it

[queen]

not everything in that book matches the Bible so u mite wanna check the Bible to see.....

oh and NONE of the Christians here want to convince anyone of anything we r trying to tell u abt Him...if u had read ANY of the other pages u'd prolly see that b/c its like the 100th time ive said it

what's with the attitude? lol. i was just introducing a different & neutral point here. and of course not everything in that book matches the bible.. er?! did you read my post at all?! haha.. it's not supposed to match ANYTHING haha.. you're way confusing ;o. the bible is symbolic.. whatever's written in there may or may not be true, so YOU might wanna check REALITY.

and did i say any of the christians here are trying to convince anyone of anything? lol. i spent a whole damn hour on that last thread.. so YES, i've been keeping up with what's going on. i have no idea wtheck your point is. i'm just getting frustrated vibes from you lol.

the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" may have come into being... which is why i'm asking if any of you have ever read the book to see what your response to it was. apparently all i'm getting from you is "it's not in the bible so it's not true"... talk about closed mindedness.

[princess2113]

what's with the attitude? lol. i was just introducing a different & neutral point here. and of course not everything in that book matches the bible.. er?! did you read it at all?! haha.. it's not supposed to match ANYTHING haha.. you're way confusing ;o. the bible is symbolic.. whatever's written in there may or may not be true, so YOU might wanna check REALITY.

and did i say any of the christians here are trying to convince anyone of anything? lol. i spent a whole damn hour on that last thread.. so YES, i've been keeping up with what's going on. i have no idea wtheck your point is. i'm just getting frustrated vibes from you lol.

the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" even came into being... which is why i'm asking if any of you have ever read the book to see what your response to it was. apparently all i'm getting from you is "it's not in the bible so it's not true"... talk about closed mindedness.

i wasnt talking to u in that bottom part i was talking to the ppl that keep saying we r trying to convert them b/c its annoying

i read through abt half im not done yet

[*CEP*]

just wondering.. have any of you ever read the book "the da vinci code"? you'd learn quite a lot of christian history from it ;x i actually found a site that has a segment from the book. feel free to read about deconstructing christianity

Notice that the book is fiction.
It even says so in the first pages.
Said something about how the whole book is fiction, but the places aren't.

Now, what you're doing is getting a piece of literary fiction to combat another piece of fiction.

That's not gonna get you anywhere.
And before you bash me about how I've never read the book, I've read it twice. I own it. I own all four of Dan Brown's books. But I would never think that they would be real. Have you read Cracking Da Vinci's Code?

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

[IIO__oII]

u guys should read MERE CHRISTIANITY..
=]

PS...chinkieeyedpnoi..i love ure aviator. its cute

[GinaDaQueen]

I haven't really read the other topic but from the responses here, it feels like the non-Christians are kind of annoyed because it seems like the Christians are trying to force their religions down their throats. But, it shouldn't be like that. Christians are just there in order to enlighten you of their beliefs. It's not some sort of cult where our (yes, I'm a Christian) power comes from brainwashing members and forcing them to do things. Christians were created to share God's story, and let you guys decide for yourselves whether it's true or not. That's the beauty of it. God have us free will. He lets us choose to do whatever we want. And it's natural of us to quote the Bible and use our resources, sort of like a lawyer would try to gather evidence to prove his case. We're like the lawyers, we put the facts out there and you as judges/jury are supposed to sift through fact or fiction and dtermine who makes the better case.

Of course, some non-Christians think we're know-it-alls because we say our religion is the only right one, but it's the same with doctors. If you were really sick, and a doctor told you to take Medicine A and it's the only way to survive, would you not take it because you think that the doctor is just lying for his own sake? No. You have to have fatih that the medicine will work, or that God exists. We're telling you that our "medicine" works. Now whether you take it or not is up to you.

[easilyxamusedx]

nicely said.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

I honestly don't see how you can't believe in God. Look around you. The world couldn't have been an accident. The human body alone is so complicated that it couldn't have happened randomly. People think that you have science or you have God. Well, from the little I know of science it's made me think that God made science.

Evolution is pretty evident. I think it's safe to say that humans did evolve from organisms from the sea. Well, did you know that ice should sink? If ice sank we never would have evolved. There's no logical reason for it to float though. It's perfectly happy with floating. You tell me, is it a conicidence that ice floats? Because there is absolutly no reason for it to do so.

I just don't see why you can't believe in God. Open up a bit, He's there.

[CrimsonArchangel]

I haven't really read the other topic but from the responses here, it feels like the non-Christians are kind of annoyed because it seems like the Christians are trying to force their religions down their throats. But, it shouldn't be like that. Christians are just there in order to enlighten you of their beliefs. It's not some sort of cult where our (yes, I'm a Christian) power comes from brainwashing members and forcing them to do things. Christians were created to share God's story, and let you guys decide for yourselves whether it's true or not. That's the beauty of it. God have us free will. He lets us choose to do whatever we want. And it's natural of us to quote the Bible and use our resources, sort of like a lawyer would try to gather evidence to prove his case. We're like the lawyers, we put the facts out there and you as judges/jury are supposed to sift through fact or fiction and dtermine who makes the better case.

Of course, some non-Christians think we're know-it-alls because we say our religion is the only right one, but it's the same with doctors. If you were really sick, and a doctor told you to take Medicine A and it's the only way to survive, would you not take it because you think that the doctor is just lying for his own sake? No. You have to have fatih that the medicine will work, or that God exists. We're telling you that our "medicine" works. Now whether you take it or not is up to you.

Well said.
But, even as a christian myself, I will say that there are some people here that are trying to convince others by ramming their beliefs down their throats and by using the Bible and what not.
Yes, the Bible is a source of truth, and no, it is not fiction, Chinkie. And, no, I can't prove it to you. Its a thing of faith and watching the history channel (They have proved many of the stories from the bible)
But I can tell you something I found online that uses science to prove the bible. I will look for the link again (comp crashed, and I lost it) for those who want to read the whole thing.
NASA scientists were trying to figure out on what orbit to put new satellites to prevent planet crashes and all that. IN order to do that, they placed a lot of info (don't really remember what, sorry...) into computers to sort of predict where the planets would be in fifty to one hundred years. So they placed all the info into the computers and let them run. All was going well until the computers just stopped. Technically, all was in good order, but the computers kept on giving an error message. Then, after more research, the techs found out that the computers gave the error message because they said there was a day missing in the time frame. Of course, no one thought that was possible, but among the techs there was a christian man. He told them that in the Bible, there was the story of Joshua. He was in a battle that seemed to be going the wrong way for him, so he asked God to stop the sun so he could have more time to fight and perhaps win (To those who might be interested and have access to a Bible, the story starts in JOshua 10 verse 12). As I was saying, God granted Joshua's request and he stopped the sun for almost a hole day. The techs were skeptic at first, but gave it a try. They placed that new info into the computers and alas, 23 hours and 20 minutes came back into the time frame. But of course, there were still forty minutes missing. This is when the christian guy came back. There is another story in the bible where a king asked God to give him a sign that he (the king) was going to be well (he was very sick), and the sign God gave him was the retreat of the shadow on a sun dial. The shadow retreated 10 degrees, which were the forty minutes that were missing. (Where that story is found scapes my mind. I'll have to get back to you on that one...).
So the techs placed that new info into the computers and the error messages dissapeared. The missing day was found.
Now, after that long-ass entry, haha, I didn't write this to try to prove anything, or try to shove anything down people's throats. I wrote it to show that perhaps with a little research, you can find many things that do explain events in history using both science and God. Science is *not* a bad thing! God created it for us to become enlightened and learn more. Some scientists just take it to a whole new level. Thats all.
*Whew...* I'm done, haha.

[queen]

it wasn't a question whether the book was true or false, just as the bible may have been true or false. i said "christian history", which i should have quoted in the first place, simply because the da vinci code provides a different view of history as the one provided in the bible. it may be fiction vs. fiction, but that's the point. the book was supposed to be "based on research", just as the bible was based on "true accounts" - although most of the things said in the conversations were, shall i say "exaggerated"? lol. again, the reason i brought it up is because i kept on seeing posts about jesus and divinity. the specific segment i showed talks about how jesus's "divinity" may have come into being, just as in the bible he may have performed miracles. there are people out there who actually believe in this book, just as there are people who believe in aliens & ghosts. the existence or non existence of god is just one of those things. i simply wanted a reaction.

i have not read cracking da vinci's code, but i've read a few chapters from the da vinci hoax, which my friend owns haha. i have not finished it, so my thoughts on it might still be blurred. anyway, here is a passage (specifically in response to the excerpt from the da vinci code:

The Council of Nicaea did not define that Jesus, the Son of God, was divine (since that was accepted by all Christians) but addressed the issue of the exact relationship between the Son and the Father: Are they equal? One in substance? Two Persons? The Council specifically addressed and condemned the popular heresy of that time, called Arianism, which insisted that the Son was a lesser god, created by the Father at some point in time and not eternally existent.

...basically leading to the holy trinity, in which the son, the father, and the holy spirit are one god. it established one god. i'm just trying to make others see it from a different standpoint: how do you just 'accept' christ's divinity without question? i guess the question i should have asked in the first place is "what made you believe in god" rather than "why do you believe in god". yes, it's two different questions. i'm looking for how you started believing in him in the first place. if you were raised in a different city/country by different parents, would it have affected your faith?

and to princess2113: i read the post, sorry for the misunderstandin' ;]

[Spirited Away]

gosh dangit, i messed up the whole quote thing. oh well the *** are what she said.

Yes, it was kind of complicated to read all that.

Just so you know, biblical quote do not impress me. I'm a person who likes answers from people's hearts, not from what they learned from others how things should be.

Anyway, let us continue:

Mark 6:38-44

"How many loaves do you have?" he asked "Go and see" When they found out, they said, "Five loaves and two fish."
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass.  So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, He gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then He gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.. "

I'm sure the same generosity and power would have been much appreciated by the Jews during the Holocaust.

If you tell me that it is because that the Jews are Jews and not Christains that God did not help them, then I would think that God discriminates.

Mark 7:20-23

".. What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, jewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. All these eveils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'..." 

If that comes from all men, EVERYONE sins, if everyone sins, then no matter how 'Virtuous' you are, without forgiveness, you will go to hell.

Are you saying that if I only think of deceiving someone, but never act the deed, then I'm still 'uncleaned'? That's pretty strange to me. If a hungry, starving child is thinking about stealing food for his sick mother, but then he didn't do it because his mother told him stealing was bad and he doesn't do the deed. Is he still uncleaned to you?

I would call that child a very virtuous child, and he would deserve to go to Heaven more than anyone of us.

When in that whole paragraph did I say that the bible DOESNT have stories in it? I said that the Bible isnt simply a storybook. The Bible is, however, a book made for instruction.

When did I say that that you said the Bibles doesn't have stories? I was merely asking you a question. Instructions of morality I already know but would read for entertainment, but if you're refering to instructions about how to serve God, then that I do not need.

Thats the difference between the followers and the NON-believers, Everyone in this world lives their life as if they have to achieve personal satisfaction.. its a ME world, everyone trying to succeed. Whereas in the christian perspective, you give your life over to Christ. You let God lead your way, and let Him use you to glorify His name. Yes the people that try to lead their own lives are walkin in the dark, its basically luck of the draw. They don't know if what they're getting themselves into will end up good or bad, whereas with Christ, you're always in safe hands.

Why would God create us and give us free will knowing that we will sin and then ridding Himself of sinners? Interesting. Are you saying those things about non-believers from experience? Because I can tell you now, that I know I'm more 'in the light' than most people. Maybe it's just my pride.

I don't know what will happen in life, but I'm sure as heck not going to cower in fear of the future, as there is no need to be. You trust your life in God's hands, while I trust my life in my hands. I try do so virtuously, not comitting evils. If your God will condem me for that, than I have nothing more to say.

Hehe, I will die as a martyr to non-believers. Let it be a lesson that no matter what good you do in life, God will forsaken you if you do not believe in Him.

You still haven't really answered me. What do you think strive non-believers to do good deeds? For their self-esteme? Surely you have faith in God's children more than that.

The difference between Our religion and all of the others is that our GOD is living. Jesus Christ Rose from the dead, and will come back to save us. 

If He rose from the dead, then why does He needs to "come back"?

You mock us as christians now, but when the wrath of Heaven rains down, It's not going to be us you have to face. You will have to look GOD in the eyes and explain your actions.. 

Know that I do not mock you for being a Christian. Sometimes, I feel like you guys are mocking yourselves.

But like I said, I do not fear Heaven's wrath, I will die happy knowing that I've done good.

So now you say that I will face God. Earlier in the debate, someone told me that I'll never have a chance to face God because he cannot abide sinners to be near Him. But I'm not ashamed to meet your God because I'm sure I can explain myself. (EDIT:: I so feel like I'm going to get flamed for that statement... but it's okay, me=future martyr remember?)

[machinoman]

I just saw Saved! and it was great.

"Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks your an a-hole."

[abberdabber]

[QUOTE=uninspiredfae,Jun 12 2004, 7:16 PM]

Just so you know, biblical quote do not impress me. I'm a person who likes answers from people's hearts, not from what they learned from others how things should be.

Well, biblical quotes are from my heart, and from what you told me before you yourself were taught by your parents, just because you dont consider God my Father doesnt mean He hasnt been my teacher. It shouldnt matter where or how I attained my education, just that I have one, and though you dont consider the word of God a so-called 'answer' to your questions, you of all people should know that I am going to use my resources. I thought we were taught to put our knowledge to use in different situations from day to day?


I'm sure the same generosity and power would have been much appreciated by the Jews during the Holocaust.  If you tell me that it is because that the Jews are Jews and not Christains that God did not help them, then I would think that God discriminates.


As I said before, out of men come evil, that is obvious, when people are not  obediant in God's word, then it's evident that evil will arise. It's in our nature. But who are we to tell God how to punish or stop it from happening. I can't answer for all of the horrible things that have happened in this world, How or why bad things happen to good people, but I do know that it's not our place. We have to have faith that God's judement will rein through evil.
as it says in Isaiah 14:3

"... On the day the Lord gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
  How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! The lord has broken the rod of the wicked..."

and all of the people that have been hurt and wronged, God will right it all when the day comes



Are you saying that if I only think of deceiving someone, but never act the deed, then I'm still 'uncleaned'? That's pretty strange to me. If a hungry, starving child is thinking about stealing food for his sick mother, but then he didn't do it because his mother told him stealing was bad and he doesn't do the deed. Is he still uncleaned to you?
I would call that child a very virtuous child, and he would deserve to go to Heaven more than anyone of us.

Isaiah 53:6
"...6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all..."
We all sin, as I have said numerous times, the boy would not be 'unclean' because he had thoughts of doing wrong.
as it says in mattew 18:3-6

"...I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes on of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea..."

You see? God looks at children as innocent, they do not have the same so-called responsibilites .. therefore are looked at entirely different than an adult.


When did I say that that you said the Bibles doesn't have stories? I was merely asking you a question. Instructions of morality I already know but would read for entertainment, but if you're refering to instructions about how to serve God, then that I do not need.

Well, you've made that clear, as a non-believer, of course you won't feel the sudden urge to read your word. As a christian, the Bible is my life. And a book in which I place my complete faith.



Why would God create us and give us free will knowing that we will sin and then ridding Himself of sinners? Interesting. Are you saying those things about non-believers from experience? Because I can tell you now, that I know I'm more 'in the light' than most people. Maybe it's just my pride.

God created us to worship Him, and to glorify Him.. but to truly love him, we had to have free will. It wouldnt be true love if He made us so that we required or programmed, to do such things automatically and without choice, we would be worshipping out of obligation rather than true love as God desires. he rids Himself of 'sinners' because they arent obedient as He would have hoped they would become on their own.

I don't know what will happen in life, but I'm sure as heck not going to cower in fear of the future, as there is no need to be. You trust your life in God's hands, while I trust my life in my hands. I try do so virtuously, not comitting evils. If your God will condem me for that, than I have nothing more to say.

God doesnt condemn anyone for living life. He does, however, condemn the disobediant, to get into heaven you have to believe .. you have to partake in God's plan for your life, otherwise you're just another person in this world. You have to live your life by faith, giving it all to God, knowing that no matter what, He'll pull you through. No matter how hard you try to 'not commit any evils' .. we all sin. like ive said a bazillion times, its our nature to be evil. And without repentance, we will go to hell.

Hehe, I will die as a martyr to non-believers. Let it be a lesson that no matter what good you do in life, God will forsaken you if you do not believe in Him.

No, God will 'foresaken' you for sinning. Pride is a sin, and no matter how good you think you've been, you need forgiveness.

Proverbs 6:17-19
"...There are six things the LORD hates, seven that He finds detestable:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers..."

any of these things will send you to hell, many things go on inside of the heart of men..

You still haven't really answered me. What do you think strive non-believers to do good deeds? For their self-esteme? Surely you have faith in God's children more than that.

You know, I really dont believe that people (non believers) know what they are missing out on.. some dont even know anything about the glory of God. They strive to be 'good people' because growing up .. we are taught to be 'good' at least some of us are. I think that people dont want to be 'bad' they just get lost in lust and sin.. and don't realize that they dont have to go through pain, or sorrow, or even confusion.. they dont understand what it's like to be able to put your hands in the air and shout "I GIVE UP!" and give all of their worries to the LORD.

If He rose from the dead, then why does He needs to "come back"?

First of all, understand that Jesus was crucified, not only to wash us in His blood, but as a sign, to all of us, that all of the prophets that had prophesied about Jesus Christ, were true. You see, without miraculous things happening, people dont believe. People need proof, and God was giving it to us. The fact that Jesus had performed so many miracles wasnt enough .. He had to have something amazing happen. He had told His disciples that He would be crucified, then rise on the third day. Along with raising others from the dead, Jesus was a man of the 'impossible'
God has to wait, until He has an army of unbudge-able people. as it says in

matthew 13:29

"... 'No,' He answered, 'because while you are pullin the wees, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time i will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it in to my barn'... " 

I'm sure you realize that this is a parable that Jesus was giving His disciples regarding the world. He is trying to say that satan is going to have a hold on people that let him, that no matter how hard God tries to rid the earth of the 'weeds' .. with free will, there will always be people that rebel.


But like I said, I do not fear Heaven's wrath, I will die happy knowing that I've done good.

How? how have you done good? I'm not asking these things to seem like a 'smart-alek'.. but do you ever wonder what it would be like to have eternal peace? To never have to wonder about your future, or where you're going? Knowing that no matter the circumstance, God will be right there by your side. That these things arent in your hands anymore..that God is in complete control? I just cant imagine being happy sitting in a mud puddle when there's an ocean just waiting for you to jump into..

[Spirited Away]

[quote=abberdabber,Jun 13 2004, 3:47 AM] Well, biblical quotes are from my heart, and from what you told me before you yourself were taught by your parents, just because you dont consider God my Father doesnt mean He hasnt been my teacher.


[/quote]
So things that you speak from the heart comes from a Book. I suppose that's understandable...

[quote]It shouldnt matter where or how I attained my education, just that I have one, and though you dont consider the word of God a so-called 'answer' to your questions, you of all people should know that I am going to use my resources. I thought we were taught to put our knowledge to use in different situations from day to day? [/quote]

Sure, learning and applying knowledge is one thing, but I thought it's funny how all most Christians do is give quotes from the 'Big Book' to answer everyone's questions. It's like memorizing lines from a play or copying someone word for word, nothing to be impressed about because any child can do just that. It's almost like, plagiarism.

[quote]As I said before, out of men come evil, that is obvious, when people are not  obediant in God's word, then it's evident that evil will arise. [/quote]
You're confusing me yet again. Are you saying that Man is born evil?

[quote]It's in our nature. But who are we to tell God how to punish or stop it from happening. I can't answer for all of the horrible things that have happened in this world, How or why bad things happen to good people, but I do know that it's not our place. We have to have faith that God's judement will rein through evil. [/quote]

It's not our place to judge those things, but it is in our place to do something about it instead of crying to God. As you can see, no matter how much they (Jews) were suffering, God seemed to have closed His eyes to it all. Was it because of who they are? Are Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions any less of a human than Christians?


[quote]and all of the people that have been hurt and wronged, God will right it all when the day comes[/quote]

You mean God will right the wrongs done to Christians. He will still forsake GOOD non-believers because of who they are and who they chose to be.

[quote]You see? God looks at children as innocent, they do not have the same so-called responsibilites .. therefore are looked at entirely different than an adult. [/quote]

I see, so children, no matter how virtuous or corrupted will still be considered as innocents? While good adults, still 'children' in God's eyes (His children), will suffer the full blown punishments. In that, I see that God discriminates people in different age groups.

[quote]Well, you've made that clear, as a non-believer, of course you won't feel the sudden urge to read your word. As a christian, the Bible is my life. And a book in which I place my complete faith. [/quote]

When was that? I would like to see how you cam to that conclusion. Perhaps I need to further explain myself. I understand the importance of the Bible to Christians, but it was the Bible that the Church waved in front of people to discredit Galileo and his disagreement with a 'flat earth'.

[quote]God created us to worship Him, and to glorify Him.. but to truly love him, we had to have free will. It wouldnt be true love if He made us so that we required or programmed, to do such things automatically and without choice, we would be worshipping out of obligation rather than true love as God desires. he rids Himself of 'sinners' because they arent obedient as He would have hoped they would become on their own. [/quote]

I still don't understand. He gave us free will to love Him? Can you not hear the hypocrisy in it? If He expects us to love him in the first place, then why give us free will? You have free will to love or not to love Him, but if you choose the latter, you will suffer for eternity. Those are not very good choices to choose from: I would have to force myself to love Him or else I would be condemed.

[quote]God doesnt condemn anyone for living life. He does, however, condemn the disobediant, to get into heaven you have to believe .. you have to partake in God's plan for your life, otherwise you're just another person in this world. You have to live your life by faith, giving it all to God, knowing that no matter what, He'll pull you through. No matter how hard you try to 'not commit any evils' .. we all sin. like ive said a bazillion times, its our nature to be evil. And without repentance, we will go to hell. [/quote]

He condems those who uses the true meaning of 'free will' and free will, in essence, means disobidence.

There are different levels of sins, however, God will make all sins tantamount to each other. I do not think that's fair. Even in the court system, there are different levels of punishment for different crimes, depending on how severe. We mortals perceive the different levels of punishments, and yet God will see all sins as sins.

[quote]No, God will 'foresaken' you for sinning. Pride is a sin, and no matter how good you think you've been, you need forgiveness. [/quote]

I only seek forgiveness in myself. Even if God will forgive me for accidentally killing someone, I will not be able to forgive myself for their loss.

It's so easy for people to kill someone and then be forgiven by God. Remember the Crusades? The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself. Of course, God will forgive you because you believe in Him. I understand.

[quote]You know, I really dont believe that people (non believers) know what they are missing out on.. some dont even know anything about the glory of God. [/quote]

That's an opinion.

[quote]They strive to be 'good people' because growing up .. we are taught to be 'good' at least some of us are. I think that people dont want to be 'bad' they just get lost in lust and sin.. and don't realize that they dont have to go through pain, or sorrow, or even confusion.. they dont understand what it's like to be able to put your hands in the air and shout "I GIVE UP!" and give all of their worries to the LORD.[/quote]

A person will only fail when he/she gives up.

That's true, I was taught to be good. However, being bad can bring satisfaction just as well. I can be good to my family and friends and then cheat strangers, and I will still have the love that I need and gain profits at the same time. But even I know that doing so will destroy my conscience. I don't think of God when I do things to benefit other people, I to have a peaceful life. It's a selfish thing to do, and probably is a sin, but this sin will benefit other people.

[quote]Christ, were true. You see, without miraculous things happening, people dont believe. People need proof, and God was giving it to us. The fact that Jesus had performed so many miracles wasnt enough .. He had to have something amazing happen. He had told His disciples that He would be crucified, then rise on the third day. Along with raising others from the dead, Jesus was a man of the 'impossible'
God has to wait, until He has an army of unbudge-able people. as it says in [/quote]

People need proof today, more than ever. The evils of the world is escalating day by day... we need miracles now and not until it's too late.

[quote]I'm sure you realize that this is a parable that Jesus was giving His disciples regarding the world. He is trying to say that satan is going to have a hold on people that let him, that no matter how hard God tries to rid the earth of the 'weeds' .. with free will, there will always be people that rebel. [/quote]

Do you consider me as someone who has let Satan control my actions? Or perhaps a rebel? There are non-Christians who waver in life, confused between good and evil, but there are some who will be true to themselves until the very end. I do not rebel against God because He hasn't given me reason to. To me, if His believers do good for society, I have no qualms about it.

With the world plunging into decadence, there is need for something 'good'. If that good be God, then let it be.

[quote]How? how have you done good? I'm not asking these things to seem like a 'smart-alek'.. but do you ever wonder what it would be like to have eternal peace? [/quote]

I've done good because I'm a person of morals, though I will be off course at times it is in human nature to do so. Eternal peace will mean nothing without peace of mind. To me doing bad things will not give me peace, therefore I strive to do good things. Once more I would like to point out that it is a selfish motive, but one that would benefit others.

[quote]To never have to wonder about your future, or where you're going? Knowing that no matter the circumstance, God will be right there by your side. That these things arent in your hands anymore..that God is in complete control? I just cant imagine being happy sitting in a mud puddle when there's an ocean just waiting for you to jump into..[/quote]

It is an opinion.

I don't feel as if I'm sitting in a mud puddle, but rather I feel free because I am doing things that will bring me peace of mind.

[princess2113]

[QUOTE]So things that you speak from the heart comes from a Book. I suppose that's understandable...[/QUOTE]
alrite u want us to give u OUR knowledge, but we first must learn...we learn from the Bible...we believe it and it is a part of us. its part of our heart

[QUOTE]Sure, learning and applying knowledge is one thing, but I thought it's funny how all most Christians do is give quotes from the 'Big Book' to answer everyone's questions. It's like memorizing lines from a play or copying someone word for word, nothing to be impressed about because any child can do just that. It's almost like, plagiarism. [QUOTE]
plagiarism?! hahahahahahaha i dont think they mind...God ask us too share and teach His Word(Much of His Word can be found in the Bible) He doesn't mind

[/QUOTE]You're confusing me yet again. Are you saying that Man is born evil? [QUOTE]
born sinners

[QUOTE]It's not our place to judge those things, but it is in our place to do something about it instead of crying to God. As you can see, no matter how much they (Jews) were suffering, God seemed to have closed His eyes to it all. Was it because of who they are? Are Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions any less of a human than Christians?[/QUOTE]

yes, only God should judge, other's judgements don't matter anyway...crying to God? we place everything in His hands...He tells us not to worry in anything, but to bring everything to Him in prayer...hum Jesus was a Jew...God didnt close His eyes on them...He sent His only Son to die for them(wow im sure thats closing His eyes....i mean He sent His Son to DIE...just so we can screw up all the time and still be with Him...yeah sure seems like He was turning away from them...uh no!
less human..no...Jesus was a Jew as i said before b/c Christian means follower of Christ and b/c God had not yet sent Jesus there were no Christians. Jesus was part of God, as He still is...the people had been promised a Savior....they just didnt know the Savior would come as form of a human and be crucified....Islam teaches many of the same principles of Christianity. its is a lot like Judiusm...u c Jews believe in the Old Testament(the Torah)...when Jesus came the New Testament came into place, about His earthly life here...Jews dont believe that He is God's Son so they dont believe the Savior has come yet, which is why they still do things like the sacrament once a year for all their sins...in Christianity we have the Ultimant Sacrament, Jesus Christ...we dunt have to do that once a year, b/c Jesus has done it forever....the Jews, like Muslims believe He is a great prophet, but not the Son of God...which brings me back to the point i brought up a while back...they say that prophets are to do what God tells them. surely prophets would not lie abt what God has told them to say or who they are. it is SCIENTIFICALLY proven that a man named Jesus was crucifed for claiming He was the Son of God....so the Jews are saying that He lied, which thye say prophets can lie. CONTRADICTION NUMBER ONE!! theey also (esp. Muslims) believe in mnay prophets....many of which wrote the Bible...(James, John, etc.) scientist have found the letters and notes of these prophets, who were sent to tell of God's word BY GOD...the Bible is merly their teachings and notes in a written, published form...however the Jews dont believe in the New Testament...so they are saying that these prophets are lieing, scientist have FOUND the letters that are now in Bibles....Muslims dont believe in the Bible, so they are saying that those prophets are lieing abt the things in there...but wait, they also say prophets cant lie...CONTRADICTION NUMBER 2!! less human, no! wrong? yes!

i gtg so sume1 else can answer the rest

[sadolakced acid]

i have a question for all you christians out there. well, a few.

1. why does creation exclude evolution. can't god do whatever he wants? so can't he create the earth and then use evolution to do the rest? (my theory)

2. why do people use jesus instead of god? aren't they the same? using jesus just seems (to me) like those people are worshiping a person. (my observation)

3. if you belive in the bible, will you belive this? (my watching TV[history channel, discovery channel] )

A.. the bible has been show as historically correct in many areas. however, the translation has been botched in places. for example, when moses parted the red sea, it is suppost to be just the red body of water. i.e. the red marsh. or the reed sea.

B.. in the bible angels come from the sky. they don't have wings. they're taller than humans. big eyes. sometimes with craft?? a craft apparently lead moses out of egypt.

(i have not actually read the bible, so i don't really know. this is all info i got from TV programs. )


well, please don't flame. i don't really know that much about christianity and pardon me if i'm wrong.

[abberdabber]

alright i jacked it up again, i answered at two different times.. dont flame.. i tried to fix it but it wont let me combine the two answers.

1.  why does creation exclude evolution.  can't god do whatever he wants?  so can't he create the earth and then use evolution to do the rest?  (my theory)

Alright, I know that in school, on TV.. Just about anywhere you look you can find the teaching of the theory of evolution. Now, I dont really know much about that, I mean, it's not my place to question it. I know that God created the earth.. and Us. But I also think that there's a connection somewhere between 'evolution' and the creation of man. It doesnt matter, because it will all be revealed.

2.  why do people use jesus instead of god?  aren't they the same?  using jesus just seems (to me)  like those people are worshiping a person.  (my observation)

OK. God is our GOD.. but he sent His son to die for our sins. There had to be a sacrafice pure enough for all of our sins. The world had gotten so corrupt, that there had to be a completely pure and innocent sacrafice. (Thats where the blood of the lamb came into play) And nothing about Jesus was corrupt. He was perfect and blameless. Jesus and God were separate, in a way.. but Jesus was the 'human' version of God, not only because he was sent by God, but because He used the poswer of God to it's full extent. He followed the Bible word for word.. and was constantly led by God. But most of all, We are grateful to our merciful LORD and saviour. He died for all of us. He went through ALL of that, and never told any non-believer what was going on. He was silent before the rulers. He could have easily called upon the angels to take Him away.. but yet, He stayed and endoured. But most importantly, after He had died, He rose again. That is the proof that the Jews are confused. There is no way that a prophet would rise again. There had to be some power from God involved in that.. but thats something you'll just have to read about for yourself. If you want to read about it at all, you should read Matthew Mark Luke and John. . in the new testament. They're really good cause it tells about all the miracles Jesus worked, Getting his disciples, Being crucified, everything.

A..  the bible has been show as historically correct in many areas.  however, the translation has been botched in places.    for example, when moses parted the red sea, it is suppost to be just the red body of water.  i.e.  the red marsh.  or the reed sea.

Luke 17:6
"... He (Jesus) replied, 'If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted, and planted in the sea!' and it will obey you.'... "
It doesnt matter how Large or Small the body of water that Moses parted, just that he had faith enough to do it.

B.. in the bible angels come from the sky.  they don't have wings.  they're taller than humans.  big eyes.  sometimes with craft??  a craft apparently lead moses out of egypt.

I dont understand what you're asking here.

So, I hope I helped.

[abberdabber]

.

You mean God will right the wrongs done to Christians. He will still forsake GOOD non-believers because of who they are and who they chose to be.

Mark 10:18
"... 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good- except for God alone'..."

No matter how good you think you are being.. once again, everyone sins. Things that will tempt us into sin will come. God's children are the ones that suffered a life of persecution for their beliefs.. the people that gave their lives up to serve His name.

Luke 9:24
".. 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it'.."

And no, it doesnt mean die.. as in keel over dead. I'm sure you realize He is speaking of giving up all things in our life that mean anything to us so that we can serve the Lord.

I see, so children, no matter how virtuous or corrupted will still be considered as innocents? While good adults, still 'children' in God's eyes (His children), will suffer the full blown punishments. In that, I see that God discriminates people in different age groups.

No, all sins are equal in the aspect of forgiveness. They arent however considered equally as evil. In the Bible, as they speak of different sins, it is obvious that God is outraged more by some than by others, as in the scripture I gave you yesterday, about the six things the Lord hates, but the seven he finds detestable. He doesnt see all equally.

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1


God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I still don't understand. He gave us free will to love Him? Can you not hear the hypocrisy in it? If He expects us to love him in the first place, then why give us free will? You have free will to love or not to love Him, but if you choose the latter, you will suffer for eternity. Those are not very good choices to choose from: I would have to force myself to love Him or else I would be condemed.

Once again, No, you will not be condemned for 'not obeying' but for venturing off, and taking your life into your own hands, thinking that you are more capable than our creator.

There are different levels of sins,  however, God will make all sins tantamount to each other. I do not think that's fair. Even in the court system, there are different levels of punishment for different crimes, depending on how severe. We mortals perceive the different levels of punishments, and yet God will see all sins as sins.

How did you come to that conclusion? As I explained above, When it comes to sinning, God sees the sin for what it is. He doesnt however, extend the activities or whatever you want to call it, that we have to do to repent.

The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself.

First of all, dont generalize. I, in no way, am like any of those people. Just because I am a follower of Christ, and they claimed to be followers of Christ, doesnt mean that we are alike in our beliefs.

It's so easy for people to kill someone and then be forgiven by God. Remember the Crusades? The slaughtering of 'heathens' were justified by Christians' belief in God's forgiveness. They killed in His name. I suppose that's due to 'evils', but you see, they were Christians, much like yourself. Of course, God will forgive you because you believe in Him. I understand.

God can see what's in your heart. He knows the circumstances in which you committed the sin. If you are thinking, as you kill someone, "hmm, this is alright because as soon as I get done with this, I can ask for forgivness.. " He's not going to let it slide like that. And secondly, Just because you've been forgiven, doesnt mean that you dont have to bare the consequences of your actions. If a woman has premarital sex, gets pregnant, then repents.. and God forgives her, it doesnt mean that she still isnt going to carry that consequence with her for the rest of her life. God forgiving you isnt a "get out of jail free pass" its a "Get into Heaven by the blood of Christ pass" there's a difference.

That's true, I was taught to be good. However, being bad can bring satisfaction just as well. I can be good to my family and friends and then cheat strangers, and I will still have the love that I need and gain profits at the same time. But even I know that doing so will destroy my conscience. I don't think of God when I do things to benefit other people, I to have a peaceful life. It's a selfish thing to do, and probably is a sin, but this sin will benefit other people.

Luke 6:46-49

"...'Why do you call me, 'LORD LORD?,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hars my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on a rock. When a flood came, the torrent sturck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into ppreactice is like a man who built a house on the gournd without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.' .."

Without God, no matter how hard you try to live a 'good', (which as I quoted a few minutes ago, is impossible because only God is good) life, you wont be prepared for disaster, and when it does come, things will come crashing down around you.

People need proof today, more than ever. The evils of the world is escalating day by day... we need miracles now and not until it's too late.

Mark 8:12

".. 'Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it.' .."

Matthew 16:2-4

"...'When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.'.. "

I don't feel as if I'm sitting in a mud puddle, but rather I feel free because I am doing things that will bring me peace of mind.

It just makes me sad because you dont think you're being used by satan, and I dont mean to "destroy God's plans" but .. just in the little things, I'm sure if you evaluate your actions, you would find some similarities in the things that God despises, and the things you find yourself doing from time to time, we all would. Because as you said before, you can get just as much pleasure out of cheating people for self-gain. This is a very corrupt generation and we are tricked into believing that we are doing 'good'. As long as society recognizes us as 'good' people, then we're alright. We are called to do great and wonderous things in the name of God. You'll know you're doing something right when society is against you. Being accepted into this world as 'normal' is the last of my concerns.

[IIO__oII]

YAY fresh and new!
no more scrolling thru 50+ pages....
;]

[abberdabber]

yea i know, its a whole lot better than before!
It's kinda ridiculous to scroll through more than 20 pages
lol

[princess2113]

wait to answer that other persons ??....Creation does not automatically exclude evolution...we know that God created it, but His ways we are not positive. He says it was created in seven days. However, the 24 hour day may not have been the same to God...out 1 year could equal a day to God, or 24 hours could equal a day to God...He could have created the earth through evolution, i just know He created it....

Jesus is God's Son...God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the Three in One..the Trinity (hard concept).....

TV? the TV doesnt look like God....some of it mite be true, but not all of it...

[Spirited Away]

alrite u want us to give u OUR knowledge, but we first must learn...we learn from the Bible...we believe it and it is a part of us. its part of our heart

I'm not interested in second hand knowledge.

yes, only God should judge, other's judgements don't matter anyway

That's your own personal opinion and does not apply to me. I only care about being able to forgive myself for doing bad things.

...crying to God? we place everything in His hands...He tells us not to worry in anything, but to bring everything to Him in prayer...

... that doesn't answer my statement at all.

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hum Jesus was a Jew...God didnt close His eyes on them...He sent His only Son to die for them(wow im sure thats closing His eyes....i mean He sent His Son to [u][i][b]DIE[/b][/i][/u]...just so we can screw up all the time and still be with
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Please re-read, I specially talked about the Jews of the Holocaust. God did closed His eyes to them.

Him...yeah sure seems like He was turning away from them...uh no!

Then why did He not spare the millions lives that suffered? Women, children burnt to ashes... I suppose that's their punishment for not believing in Him.

less human..no...Jesus was a Jew as i said before b/c Christian means follower of Christ and b/c God had not yet sent Jesus there were no Christians. Jesus was part of God, as He still is...the people had been promised a Savior....they just didnt know the Savior would come as form of a human and be crucified...

I don't think we're understanding each other. I'm not talking about that.. I'm talking a whole different timeline and the more recent evils. Not WAY back when things don't really matter.

CONTRADICTION NUMBER 2!! less human, no! wrong? yes!

Being 'wrong' is also an opinion. A very baised one.

[Spirited Away]

First of all, sorry for double posting.

[quote]
Mark 10:18
"... 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good- except for God alone'..." [/quote]

That's another opinion, but one I could agree with, to a certain level.

[quote]No matter how good you think you are being.. once again, everyone sins. Things that will tempt us into sin will come. God's children are the ones that suffered a life of persecution for their beliefs.. the people that gave their lives up to serve His name. [/quote]

Well, I never once said that I'm completely virtuous have I? I remember writing that I tend to go off course sometimes too, because it's human nature to do so.

How have you suffered persecution for your beliefs? You persecute EACH OTHER and persecute people of other faiths. You divide amongst yourself to different denominations, each claiming to be the 'right' one.

Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, WE ARE the ones who are labled as HEATHENS and BARBARIANS. We're "LOST" "REBELS" in your eyes. We sit near a puddle of mud while you are swimming in the ocean. WE're the ones who are being persecuted for our free will. You all just get off easy being forgiven and all and getting to go to Heaven while we have to be BURNED for eternity in HELL.

Remember the Salem Wictch trials? Women were burned because a few 'good' Christians believe that they were working for the Devil... ooooh.

I don't see how YOU could come to the conclusion that Christians suffer more. That makes me wanna laugh.

[quote]
No, all sins are equal in the aspect of forgiveness. They arent however considered equally as evil. In the Bible, as they speak of different sins, it is obvious that God is outraged more by some than by others, as in the scripture I gave you yesterday, about the six things the Lord hates, but the seven he finds detestable. He doesnt see all equally. [/quote]

Uh, what I meant is that no matter what the sin is, and no matter how much God destest one over the other, a sin is STILL a sin. God will not forgive sinners who are non-Christian, and that's discrimination. Of course God might not see it that way because His rules are the 'ultimate' ones.

[quote]18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [/quote]

If He has made it "plain" then there would be no such thing as a non-believer. It is because God had made things TOO complicated and too DOUBTFUL that people like me exists.

[quote]
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. [/quote]
False. If everything has been clearly seen and clearly understood, then we would not be having this debate about His existence. Because things are UNCLEAR and nothing of such miracles has been truly seen that there are non-believers.

[quote]21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [/quote]

False, there are those who are raised without ever knowing God. Children in poorer countries who lived only knowing how to find food and water, children who grew into men and only know of their own gods DO NOT know of YOUR God at all.

People like me know about God, but we do not 'know' Him. Do not assume that we do because we've never met Him, we've never felt Him...etc.

[quote] 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. [/quote]

Fools we may be, we are only mortals after all. To say that Christians are not foolish is to say that Christians are smarter than non-believers, and that's PRIDE. Isn't that a SIN? It's kind of 'foolish' to say that with so much pride.

[quote]24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. [/quote]

"The truth of God" is an opinion. There is no truth in religion. Your truth might not correspond with a Jew or Muslim's truth. It's only that I am neither Jew nor Muslim that I cannot argue with you... I think I will do a poor job in their behalf, so I can only defend them as best I could.


[quote] 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. [/quote]

I should be offended by these claims, but I'm not, I'm only quite amused.

[Sarcasm]Here me my Non-believer friends! Since we're all going to Hell anyway, lets live life to the fullest, and BE wicked, evil, greedy and envious! Let us murder and commit malice to those near us. Lets gossip and slander Christians for they are flying to Heaven while we burn in Hell.

Let us be insolent, senseless, faithless for we are condemed for doing them anyway even if we do not.

For you see, even if we do not, God will turn a blind eye to our good deeds.

When we do good, He will not see. When we do bad He will count it against us. [Sarcasm]

[quote]Once again, No, you will not be condemned for 'not obeying' but for venturing off, and taking your life into your own hands, thinking that you are more capable than our creator. [/quote]

Disobeying and venturing off are the SAME thing. I disobey when I venture off and when I venture off, I disobey. Where do you see a difference?

I've been more capable of taking care of myself and my family since I was 10.

[quote]First of all, dont generalize. I, in no way, am like any of those people. Just because I am a follower of Christ, and they claimed to be followers of Christ, doesnt mean that we are alike in our beliefs. [/quote]

Okay, this is where things gets heated. So you're saying that you're a better Christian? I doubt that. People in the past were very devoted to the faith, so much, that they were wiling to die for it. Just because YOU serve God in a different way than them DOES NOT mean that they were not true followers of Christ. You're too prideful for your own good.

The knights of the Crusades fought against what they Church claims were 'heathens'. THE CHURCH declared that heathens must be killed! They were only following orders!!! How could you say that they are nothing like you? They would do anything for God. Man that is soooo wrong of you to say that.

I REFUSE TO CONTINUE this with you. It's obvious that you think that YOU ARE the ONLY true follower of God and everyone else who has done differently was wrong... that's just wrong... And they are people of your own faith...

Anyway, I'm not even going to bother answering the rest because I've been to greatly offended by you for people who have lost their lives in the name of God.

[princess2113]

second-hand knowledge????

u trust ur history book...they got it frum other resources...u trust ur math teacher...she learned in a course...everything u know, u learn from someone or something else, unless it is instinct....we arent just born and BAM we know all abt God...there is still sooooooooo much i dunno....soooooo much i wont know until i go to Heaven...and sooooooooooo much i want to learn....i wasnt just born with it all there

God doesnt close His eyes on anyone

[Spirited Away]

u trust ur history book...they got it frum other resources...u trust ur math teacher...she learned in a course...everything u know, u learn from someone or something else, unless it is instinct....we arent just born and BAM we know all abt God...there is still sooooooooo much i dunno....soooooo much i wont know until i go to Heaven...and sooooooooooo much i want to learn....i wasnt just born with it all there

God doesnt close His eyes on anyone

WRONG.

I learn from several sources missy. Ever since I learned about the Vietnam war from the Vietnamese perspective instead of out of a book, I've learn that one source is not always so realiable.

There are several sources to learn from, while you only have one book and then the words of those who read the same book.

God will close His eyes when non-believers choose to be non-believers to the very end. How else can you explain people going to Hell? God has obviously forsaken them.

[abberdabber]

Fae, are you sure thats the reason you continue to go on with this? Of all of the comments ive laid out on the table, you have been offended by this one? first of because you are assuming things. second, are you sure it's not because its getting harder to defend what you know as right? as you said, i am also not going to answer, not because you've offended me in anyway. .. although you've made some rash statements in the last few nights. I respect your view and how you defend it. I hope everything is alright with you.

sincerely yours.

abbe

[Spirited Away]

Fae, are you sure thats the reason you continue to go on with this? Of all of the comments ive laid out on the table, you have been offended by this one? first of because you are assuming things. second, are you sure it's not because its getting harder to defend what you know as right? as you said, i am also not going to answer, not because you've offended me in anyway. .. although you've made some rash statements in the last few nights. I respect your view and how you defend it. I hope everything is alright with you.

sincerely yours.

abbe

HAH!

So now I've been accused of lying, by a self-righteous Christian none the less. It must be true! I'm lying! *Gasp*, I'm so sinful it's scary. But I guess you can get away with your pride because even though you're Christian, God will be nice to you.

Trust me when I say that I'm confident about what I'm talking about. Take notice that I've never once say that there is no God. I've only question His existence, and there is a GREAT difference. AND I've liken your God and the gods from other religion to my Creator. It is you and some others who have said that other gods do not exist.

I do not know who is more at fault: me respecting your God and wanting to understand what it is that make you all so devoted, or you and others saying that other gods do not exist.

It is you who are assume too much about your God and closing your mind to others. I don't blame you though, it is as it should be; that's how religions are.

It's never too hard to defend what I say because I never say things for certain. "The road to certainty is the road to insanity", so I do not strive to 'know' things for certain.

Like Socrates have taught, it is better to say 'I don't know' than to say 'I know all'.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

You guys are so nit-picky and technical. The important thing is that God is up there, and he loves you. As long as you follow those lovely commandments and have faith you have nothing to worry about. God wouldn't make it impossible for us to join Him in His Kingdom. He want's us there, and He'd never try to stop us from getting there. So, why can't we all be friends and rejoyce in Him. Ay?

Just because you can't see Him doesn't mean He isn't there.

[Spirited Away]

You guys are so nit-picky and technical. The important thing is that God is up there, and he loves you. As long as you follow those lovely commandments and have faith you have nothing to worry about. God wouldn't make it impossible for us to join Him in His Kingdom. He want's us there, and He'd never try to stop us from getting there. So, why can't we all be friends and rejoyce in Him. Ay?

Just because you can't see Him doesn't mean He isn't there.

Why believe in something I cannot see, when I can believe in something I can see? (Not to say that I believe in anything only visible to the eyes. That was only to contrast what you say.)

I suppose the nit-picky people you're reffering to are the non-believers? I suppse we are, but I can easily accuse Christians of being the same way.

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

I can be friends with anyone so long as they're nice.

[princess2113]

WRONG.

I learn from several sources missy. Ever since I learned about the Vietnam war from the Vietnamese perspective instead of out of a book, I've learn that one source is not always so realiable.

There are several sources to learn from, while you only have one book and then the words of those who read the same book.

God will close His eyes when non-believers choose to be non-believers to the very end. How else can you explain people going to Hell? God has obviously forsaken them.

"WRONG" is an opionion...u have no scientfically proof, only ur faith

ur "sources" hve learned from others...my Source comes from the top=)
i dont ONLY learn frum the Bible..also pastors, friends, experiences, prayer, camps, etc.

He doesnt turn His back...c u dunno Him so stop telling me(who DOES know Him what He does and doesnt do....u have no clue) He cant be with evil. by not believing in Him, u allow the devil to be a major part of ur life, and dont want the devil out...back to my orginl point...Heaven IS NOT for those who wish to be there to escape hell...it is a gift...a gift to those who love Jeus Christ as their Lord and Savior...now its not my place to judge if u do or not, but from what u say...u dont at this point....so why would u wanna live forever with Jesus...i mean if u dunt love Him..u sure like the devils ways...wuldnt u rather spend eternity with the devil...i men since u just love the devil....i wanna be with Jesus forever b/c i love Him...He died for me and i know it...i dunt wanna be there so i dunt have to go to hell...i mean its a great plus but not my reason

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

LOL i have like 3 Christian friends

[Spirited Away]

"WRONG" is an opionion...u have no scientfically proof, only ur faith


He doesnt turn His back...c u dunno Him so stop telling me(who DOES know Him what He does and doesnt do....u have no clue) He cant be with evil. by not believing in Him, u allow the devil to be a major part of ur life, and dont want the devil out...back to my orginl point...Heaven IS NOT for those who wish to be there to escape hell...it is a gift...a gift to those who love Jeus Christ as their Lord and Savior...now its not my place to judge if u do or not, but from what u say...u dont at this point....so why would u wanna live forever with Jesus...i mean if u dunt love Him..u sure like the devils ways...wuldnt u rather spend eternity with the devil...i men since u just love the devil....i wanna be with Jesus forever b/c i love Him...He died for me and i know it...i dunt wanna be there so i dunt have to go to hell...i mean its a great plus but not my reason

Um, I don't have a faith, you dummy.

ur "sources" hve learned from others...my Source comes from the top=)
i dont ONLY learn frum the Bible..also pastors, friends, experiences, prayer, camps, etc.

Okay, your friends and pastors read from the same book. but that's fine with me. If you want to limit your scope to only one source instead of gaining knowledge from everything around you, that's your own deal.

Great, so now because I'm non-believer, I work for the Devil. Fine, I'll play by your rules. I am now a devil's advocate. RUN you fool, I will slaughter you.

And I'm going to ignore the rest of what you say because I'm a person who do not like having too many repititions in her own arguements as well as repitition in others as well.

And please, before you accuse me of 'not being able to defend my arguement', please think of something newer for me to argue, instead of the same old thing, and I will endeavor to entertain you with my time.

[abberdabber]

How have you suffered persecution for your beliefs? You persecute EACH OTHER and persecute people of other faiths. You divide amongst yourself to different denominations, each claiming to be the 'right' one.

Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, WE ARE the ones who are labled as HEATHENS and BARBARIANS. We're "LOST" "REBELS" in your eyes. We sit near a puddle of mud while you are swimming in the ocean. WE're the ones who are being persecuted for our free will. You all just get off easy being forgiven and all and getting to go to Heaven while we have to be BURNED for eternity in HELL. Remember the Salem Wictch trials? Women were burned because a few 'good' Christians believe that they were working for the Devil... ooooh.
I don't see how YOU could come to the conclusion that Christians suffer more. That makes me wanna laugh

Fae, once again, you are generalizing, do you mean 'you' as christians or 'you' as in me? because personally, i dont believe that what those 'Christians' did was right, but why should I, personally be held accountable for their actions? And you say that you have to be burned fo enternity in hell.. hmm.. you dont have to be, im sure you realize that by now. You have no idea what christians.. yes i am generalizing now, go through day from day for their beliefs. You dont have any idea what its like to walk through the hallway everday knowing that your every move is being scrutinized.

If He has made it "plain" then there would be no such thing as a non-believer. It is because God had made things TOO complicated and too DOUBTFUL that people like me exists.
False. If everything has been clearly seen and clearly understood, then we would not be having this debate about His existence. Because things are UNCLEAR and nothing of such miracles has been truly seen that there are non-believers.
False, there are those who are raised without ever knowing God. Children in poorer countries who lived only knowing how to find food and water, children who grew into men and only know of their own gods DO NOT know of YOUR God at all.
People like me know about God, but we do not 'know' Him. Do not assume that we do because we've never met Him, we've never felt Him...etc.Fools we may be, we are only mortals after all. To say that Christians are not foolish is to say that Christians are smarter than non-believers, and that's PRIDE. Isn't that a SIN? It's kind of 'foolish' to say that with so much pride. "The truth of God" is an opinion. There is no truth in religion. Your truth might not correspond with a Jew or Muslim's truth. It's only that I am neither Jew nor Muslim that I cannot argue with you... I think I will do a poor job in their behalf, so I can only defend them as best I could. I should be offended by these claims, but I'm not, I'm only quite amused.

God has made it plain, in everything, God is all around us, you just have to elvaluate your perspective. If you dont want to think He's here, then of course you're not going to see Him. As for the people in other countries, God wasnt speaking of that at all, because there are going to be people who can honestly stand before God and say that they didnt know. In that scripture that you were quoting the entire time, It was Paul speaking throughout the entire scripture about people that hear the word of God yet ignore it.

Okay, this is where things gets heated. So you're saying that you're a better Christian? I doubt that. People in the past were very devoted to the faith, so much, that they were wiling to die for it. Just because YOU serve God in a different way than them DOES NOT mean that they were not true followers of Christ. You're too prideful for your own good.The knights of the Crusades fought against what they Church claims were 'heathens'. THE CHURCH declared that heathens must be killed! They were only following orders!!! How could you say that they are nothing like you? They would do anything for God. Man that is soooo wrong of you to say that. 

I did not say that I am a better christian. I simply said that for that CHURCH to commit such sin, and then to right it by saying that they would be forgiven, they were corrupt. The church is much different than being just a believer. I go to church, as a believer, to learn more about Christ. But in the Bible it says that the churches have grown corrupt and greedy. Do not assume that because there is a church that claims to be Christian, I am a part of it. MANY MANY MANY people today call themselves Christians, it isnt fair to assume that because they give themselves the title, and expect to be recognized as one, that we act, or believe in the same things.

I do, however, owe you an apology. I shouldnt have debated anything with you, I knew you would take these things with a hardened heart and not recieve the true love in the scriptures and whatnot. I made it a point to show you that your ways were "wrong" which in turn, was wrong of me. I know that no matter what so called facts I give you, that you will combat everything I say with some sarcastic remark. It was wrong of me to go on with this.

[Spirited Away]

Fae, once again, you are generalizing, do you mean 'you' as christians or 'you' as in me? because personally, i dont believe that what those 'Christians' did was right, but why should I, personally be held accountable for their actions? And you say that you have to be burned fo enternity in hell.. hmm.. you dont have to be, im sure you realize that by now. You have no idea what christians.. yes i am generalizing now, go through day from day for their beliefs. You dont have any idea what its like to walk through the hallway everday knowing that your every move is being scrutinized.

I said you and I meant Christians, because they (the knights) were called themselves Christians, and I'm taking their words for it. I am sincerely sorry if you are offended by it, but then you should blame them for their actions, and not me for my interpretation of it.

Having your every move scrutinize is nothing compared to having to fight for your life because you're considered a heathen. Now days, religion is no longer so harsh in their wake, but it is still very strict. You are promised forgiveness no matter what you do, why must you be fearful? In that, I am truly confused.

You don't think I'm fearful of going to purgatory? In truth, I am, but I since I do not have a choice in it, I will not fight it. By having no choice, I mean that I do not believe in God and I would be forced to believe in Him in order to be forgiven.

God has made it plain, in everything, God is all around us, you just have to elvaluate your perspective. If you dont want to think He's not here, then of course you're not going to see Him. As for the people in other countries, God wasnt speaking of that at all, because there are going to be people who can honestly stand before God and say that they didnt know. In that scripture that you were quoting the entire time, It was Paul speaking throughout the entire scripture about people that hear the word of God yet ignore it.

Science has made it plain, in everything, science is all around us, you just have to evaluate your perspective. If you don't want to think science is not here, then of course you're not going to see it.

I ignore things that cannot see (spiritually speaking).

I did not say that I am a better christian. I simply said that for that CHURCH to commit such sin, and then to right it by saying that they would be forgiven, they were corrupt. The church is much different than being just a believer. I go to church, as a believer, to learn more about Christ. But in the Bible it says that the churches have grown corrupt and greedy. Do not assume that because there is a church that claims to be Christian, I am a part of it. MANY MANY MANY people today call themselves Christians, it isnt fair to assume that because they give themselves the title, and expect to be recognized as one, that we act, or believe in the same things.

So you are a bit different than most Christians. Most Christians swears that the Church is the house of God, and therefore cannot be corrupted as God is its master.

It isn't fair for me to say that, no, but it isn't fair for you (or the person) who said that non-believers are senseless, wicked, faithless, heartless, ruthless... etc. That wasn't only unfair, but incredibly outdated and ignorant.

I do, however, owe you an apology. I shouldnt have debated anything with you, I knew you would take these things with a hardened heart and not recieve the true love in the scriptures and whatnot. I made it a point to show you that your ways were "wrong" which in turn, was wrong of me. I know that no matter what so called facts I give you, that you will combat everything I say with some sarcastic remark. It was wrong of me to go on with this.

I will admit being in the wrong myself, but only for that I was sarcastic in my reply. I usually don't unless I am offended by something.

[sadolakced acid]

sure, christians shouldn't be persecuted for what the crusaders did...

but on the other side, should the jews be persecuted for "killing jesus" ?

sure, i'm 'anti-christ' although i prefer the term 'anti-christian-convertism' or 'anti-evangical'

i just hate it when some christian comes to me and starts 'doing god's work'

i have a question.

why can't the christians leave the other religions alone instead of 'converting the infedel' to save them? if my religion is wrong, so be it. let me burn. but if mine is right, christians do not burn.

i am not bad because i am not christian. i am not bad at all. but i am not christian. will i still burn just because i refused to acknoledge christ?
and , will the mass murderer that 'truly repented' go to heaven?

is this, what's that word, justice?


no one has ever died and come back and told us what happens. (jesus didn't tell us, did he? ) no one knows what religion is right. so can't people just respect other religions? why does the infidel need to be saved?

i don't have a problem with people going to church or with what they belive. i just have a problem with people who try to make me belive what they do.

[ryfitaDF]

sure, christians shouldn't be persecuted for what the crusaders did...

but on the other side, should the jews be persecuted for "killing jesus" ?

sure, i'm 'anti-christ' although i prefer the term 'anti-christian-convertism' or 'anti-evangical'

i just hate it when some christian comes to me and starts 'doing god's work'

i have a question.

why can't the christians leave the other religions alone instead of 'converting the infedel' to save them? if my religion is wrong, so be it. let me burn. but if mine is right, christians do not burn.

i am not bad because i am not christian. i am not bad at all. but i am not christian. will i still burn just because i refused to acknoledge christ?
and , will the mass murderer that 'truly repented' go to heaven?

is this, what's that word, justice?


no one has ever died and come back and told us what happens. (jesus didn't tell us, did he? ) no one knows what religion is right. so can't people just respect other religions? why does the infidel need to be saved?

i don't have a problem with people going to church or with what they belive. i just have a problem with people who try to make me belive what they do.

tru dat. tru dat.

i'm wif ya, man.

down with bogitry.

[abberdabber]

Fae, ive been reading through the last few posts of our debate the last couple of nights, i mean it was kind of fun.. was it not? I looked forward to what you had to say about the points I had made, as I'm sure you did as well. I just wanted to point out that I, in absolutely no way, meant any harm in our conversations, as I know at some points I was rather rude. You seem like an awesome person, and I've never met anyone so strong-willed and determined to let their opinion stand. I dont really know why I'm writing this to you, except to say that I'm sorry that I came across as I did, .. prideful? as you said? I dont really know, but I just wanted to try and clear it up. alright well for once in my life, I've run out of things to say.

So you are a bit different than most Christians. Most Christians swears that the Church is the house of God, and therefore cannot be corrupted as God is its master.

I am a lot different than a lot of Christians you will meet today, I mean, at least I hope so. . Did you know that over 6 million people in the world today claim to be so called christians? That's why I got so upset when you generalized, because I am not .. hmm.. well like most of them. I believe with everything inside of me that there is a God, and thats where I jacked all of this up. I was so focused on telling you that you were 'wrong' that I lost all perspective and the point of our discussions. You see, I'm nondenominational, thats why I'm so used to the idea that chuches are like man, they can get corrupt and lose sight of the whole reason for them being there. Church, for a lot of people decieves them into the mindset of.. "Well, It's sunday, I've prayed and given my tithe.. I'm good to go for the next week.." It just aggrivates me, I'm sure you can tell. People see God as a church building and a bible. When He is so much more. A lot of people dont realize that church is for guidance.. for learning more about Christ.. but CHRIST himself is supposed to be your foundation. I read my word and go by that, not by what some self-appointed preacher tells me to do. I guess thats what makes me different. I refuse to just sit down and have people tell me how I need to serve GOD. I have to see it for myself. He's going to guide me.. not some crazy church. And the same thing goes for religion.. thats why I dont really have one. I mean I am a christian, but it stops there, I go to church on wednesdays and on sundays occasionally, saturday nights are the best.. but i like it better when I can praise and worship at home, on my own, in my own way..
I think thats why I got so upset when you were generalizing me as a christian, with every other christian out there.. Just because I believe in Christ, doesnt automatically make me some brainwashed bible thumper. As it was wrong of me to judge you, just because you arent a follower of my faith, doesnt make you some GOD-awful sinner, not that I had thought that of you in the first place. I just mean that I'm sure you got the feeling that I was putting you down or patronizing you, as an Un-believer. I dont think I did, but .. I very well could have.

ah well, I hope you catch the sincerity in my tone throughout this post.

[queen]

i find it interesting that when we say "god" everyone automatically assumes it's the "christian" god and automatically discuss the "christian" beliefs. it's as if we were discussing something TANGIBLE.

i believe god is who you want god to be. s/he is in your heart, mind, and soul. s/he represents faith in yourself and life. how do you live believing in nothing? well, i guess there are many who are able to, but those who can't turn to the divine entities. you're all discussing the guidelines for believing in a god, when there shouldn't even BE one. if you truly believe in a god, then s/he speaks through your heart, and that's all you need.

the god of the christians is not the only one that exists, but i do believe all faiths lead to the same celestial being. my god IS your god IS his god IS her god IS their god. god appears to us in different forms, but s/he is inside every one of us - including the nonbelievers. everytime you ask yourself a question, everytime you look toward yourself for strength, everytime you have HOPE, it's god. if god truly did give us free will, it's the free will to be able to choose your own path - to be jewish, christian, catholic, muslim, atheist, or agnostic. god is our inner existence.

[DisneyPrincessKa...]

Why believe in something I cannot see, when I can believe in something I can see? (Not to say that I believe in anything only visible to the eyes. That was only to contrast what you say.)

I suppose the nit-picky people you're reffering to are the non-believers? I suppse we are, but I can easily accuse Christians of being the same way.

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

I can be friends with anyone so long as they're nice.

(eep! this is longer than intended)

This might be a dumb example, but think about it-

When people are trying to decide what to wear they generally check out the weather. It's not very fun to be wearing long pants and a sweater during 90 degree weather. So they check it out, and trust the meterologists.
Well, when I wanted to know if God was really there, and if He really did love me I looked into some stuff. I found so much proof of Him. He's all around us. God is loving and warm, when I look at my cat I can see God. Because my cat is always there for me and can lift my spirits. When I look at my best friends, I see God, because they'd never abandon me. Look deeper at things and I'me sure you'll see Him.

And I'm not just referring to the non-believers. Not at all. Just about everyone posting on this thread is going into detail that won't be listened to and taken to heart by the opposing side. If you were feeding a five year old would you present them with some fancy meal that they probably won't like? Of course not! You'd whip out a peanut butter and jelly. They'll eat it. So, when presenting your point are you going to whip out a long complicated explanation of the Darwin Theory? You can, but to be honest, I've avoided the longer ones. And I know a lot of the non-believes don't like the bible quotes. So why not make it simple and from the heart?

And of course I'd be friends with a non-believer! Did I sound like I wouldn't in my last post? My bad homie. I didn't mean to if I did. If I refused to be friends with a non-believer that would actually make me a bad Christian. As a Christian I should at least try to love everyone. I don't judge people on their faith. I think that's dumb.

[Spirited Away]

Fae, ive been reading through the last few posts of our debate the last couple of nights, i mean it was kind of fun.. was it not? I looked forward to what you had to say about the points I had made, as I'm sure you did as well. I just wanted to point out that I, in absolutely no way, meant any harm in our conversations, as I know at some points I was rather rude. You seem like an awesome person, and I've never met anyone so strong-willed and determined to let their opinion stand. I dont really know why I'm writing this to you, except to say that I'm sorry that I came across as I did, .. prideful? as you said? I dont really know, but I just wanted to try and clear it up. alright well for once in my life, I've run out of things to say.

Strong-willed and my kind of keen determination has gotten me into a lot of trouble. But I was just as rude as you thought you were, though, I usually say that being rude is okay and is expected in a debate. And I'm just as guilty of being prideful as you are.

I am a lot different than a lot of Christians you will meet today, I mean, at least I hope so. .

In an earlier arguement with Princess, I have said that I believed the Church and the Bible to be middlemen. As in, they stand in the way of building a relationship with God, if He exists. The Church is a definate middleman, but I know that you disagree with the Bible being as such. To me, because Man wrote the Bible, there's a chance that they were as corrupted as the Clergy could. How can anyone be certain that the Bible contains words of God, when it was Man who created it?

I believe with everything inside of me that there is a God, and thats where  I jacked all of this up.

My Christian friend says the same thing. Hehe, she strongly believes in God, but she rarely goes to Church even though her parents forces her to go. In her own words, she says the Churches she has been to all turned gradually into a business, a market of people who want to buy their way to Heaven. They wave the Bible as a tool and speak like an auctioneer would...

Those sorts of things are really what instill doubt wariness in people like me, who has nothing against God, but more like we come to dislike what He stands for because of these people who wants to sell religion.

"Well, It's sunday, I've prayed and given my tithe.. I'm good to go for the next week.." It just aggrivates me, I'm sure you can tell.

Believe me when I say that it aggravates me as well to hear people say that all I need to do is ask God for forgiveness for my sins. When they say that, it makes me think they act so high and mighty when in reality, they sin as much as I and perhaps even more so.

People see God as a church building and a bible. When He is so much more. A lot of people dont realize that church is for guidance.. for learning more about Christ..

I will try not to generalize all Churches, but from what I hear from my friends and from what I've seen for myself, some Churches offer guidance for a price. God has been turned into a symbol of such because there are men of Christ who intended things to be that way. Not all pastors have your best interest in learning about God in mind.

patronizing you, as an Un-believer. I dont think I did, but .. I very well could have.

Oh, I didn't realized that I was being patronized, except for that one part about non-Christians being selfish, heartless, and ruthless part. And in truth, I was too frustrated by the different answers I was given by different people, not knowing which was the one that actually has some truth to it. Perhaps all of them were truths, perhaps they were all made up, I don't know.

That's the hardest part of being a non-believer: you don't know what the truth is because everyone claims to be 'right', so many of us make up our own truths in hope that we are right as well.

It's not that we do not fear the possibility of Hell, because I assure you that if Hell exists, we would be petrified.

However, to be sent to Hell because of this confusion created by fellow Man, is not at all fair. That is why I am constant in arguing that if there is a God, He would be fair and kind and wouldn't blame us agnostics or atheists for our doubt.

But since everyone has been saying that God will forsaken non-believers, I will not fight it. If that is our fate, no matter how unfair, let it be.

I do not speak for other agnostics or atheists, but I understand their disbelief for what it is and what strives them to think that way.

[Spirited Away]

i find it interesting that when we say "god" everyone automatically assumes it's the "christian" god and automatically discuss the "christian" beliefs. it's as if we were discussing something TANGIBLE.

Sorry for double posting.

We've also discussed, not so detailed, about some other faiths as well and have made some comparisions in the other "god" topic. This is only a continuation of that and we have narrowed it down to the Christian God because there are only Christians in here who are arguing for God.

I would welcome any other religions to argue...

And I agree only 5o% of the rest of what you say, especially: "but i do believe all faiths lead to the same celestial being".

[queen]

But since everyone has been saying that God will forsaken non-believers, I will not fight it. If that is our fate, no matter how unfair, let it be.

I do not speak for other agnostics or atheists, but I understand their disbelief for what it is and what strives them to think that way.

you may not believe in the christian god, but there is a god inside you. when you feel emotional pain, who do go to for help when no one else is there? when you feel remorse for something you've done, don't you turn towards yourself for forgiveness? you can say that it's not a god, just an inner sense of morality. but if you don't believe in god, why do you worry about the "unfairness" of your "fate"? i DO understand why agnostics and atheists believe what they believe, or in this case DON'T believe haha.. but i believe they have an inner concept of god. everyone has faith in SOMETHING, and that takes the place of a god for them.

[Spirited Away]

you may not believe in the christian god, but there is a god inside you.  when you feel emotional pain, who do go to for help when no one else is there? when you feel remorse for something you've done, don't you turn towards yourself for forgiveness? you can say that it's not a god, just an inner sense of morality.  but if you don't believe in god, why do you worry about the "unfairness" of your "fate"?  i DO understand why agnostics and atheists believe what they believe, or in this case DON'T believe haha.. but i believe they have an inner concept of god.  everyone has faith in SOMETHING, and that takes the place of a god for them.

That's a nice concept, too, to believe that there's a god in oneself. It could be possible.

It's not that I do not believe in a Higher Being, because I have said that I do in earlier posts, but it's more like Man has made this Being into something marketable.

[queen]

It's not that I do not believe in a Higher Being, because I have said that I do in earlier posts, but it's more like Man has made this Being into something marketable.

there you go.. haha. i've been tryna come up with a way to explain that for the past hour ;o

oh and when i said "you" earlier, i was speaking generally, not you specifically.. i should probably edit that post and put "one" instead of "you" haha

[IIO__oII]

Why believe in something I cannot see, when I can believe in something I can see? (Not to say that I believe in anything only visible to the eyes. That was only to contrast what you say.)

I suppose the nit-picky people you're reffering to are the non-believers? I suppse we are, but I can easily accuse Christians of being the same way.

But would you still willing to be friends with someone who doesn't believe in Him?

I can be friends with anyone so long as they're nice.

i would stay friends!

[ryfitaDF]

i'm cool with anyone, believer or not.

[CrimsonArchangel]

Great, so now because I'm non-believer, I work for the Devil. Fine, I'll play by your rules. I am now a devil's advocate. RUN you fool, I will slaughter you.

Fae, you're great. HaHa.
I didn't mean to insult anyone, I just found that little statement rather amusing.
It seems to me that we are debating the same thing over and over and over and over and... have I made my point? Why don't we let someone put out their beliefs *only*. We argue those, then we go onto the next person. Only a suggestion.

[CrimsonArchangel]

How can anyone be certain that the Bible contains words of God, when it was Man who created it?

I know many don't like quotings of the Bible, so I won't try to.
Yes, Man wrote the Bible, but they were inspired by God to write the things they did.
Fae, if you believe in a Creator, then you must believe (at least in some point) in creation. If creation was the beginning of life and what not, how could have Man written about it hundreds of years after it happened (not having been there, of course), if it wasn't God/the Creator the one who who inspired Man to write about it and told him what to write?
Again... I feel that didn't make sense, so, if it didn't, I'll try to explain better.

[IIO__oII]

I know many don't like quotings of the Bible, so I won't try to.
Yes, Man wrote the Bible, but they were inspired by God to write the things they did.
Fae, if you believe in a Creator, then you must believe (at least in some point) in creation. If creation was the beginning of life and what not, how could have Man written about it hundreds of years after it happened (not having been there, of course), if it wasn't God/the Creator the one who who inspired Man to write about it and told him what to write?
Again... I feel that didn't make sense, so, if it didn't, I'll try to explain better.

yesyes.. the Bible contains only God's words... none of ours.

[ryfitaDF]

what about all the revisions of the bible? you may not know, but it has been re-written about 7 times, i think. the one everyone knows is the king james version. who knows if king james threw in a few of his own ideas in it?

[CrimsonArchangel]

what about all the revisions of the bible? you may not know, but it has been re-written about 7 times, i think. the one everyone knows is the king james version. who knows if king james threw in a few of his own ideas in it?

Oh, agree, agree, agree.
Though the bible has been revised several times, still the jist of it is still the same.

[Retrogressive]

i used to be a very strong christian, i even had a whole website based on "the end" according to the bible. my best defence against someone asking "how do you know that god is real? you can't see him" i would say "you can't see the wind... but you can feel the effects of the wind."

but now even though i go to a christian school i have so many doubs. i don't want to believe in a god who doesn't want people to be gay, even though people are born that way. the bible seems almost like a cult document sometimes. and besides if there is a god (which most evidance points to there being some kind of god.) i believe that god would be a female. because females are the symbol of life and loving. i don't think god would be a male.

most christians force their beliefs on you and think their way IS THE ONLY way. i don't believe that and i think that is so stupid.

[Yemmerz]

what about all the revisions of the bible? you may not know, but it has been re-written about 7 times, i think. the one everyone knows is the king james version. who knows if king james threw in a few of his own ideas in it?

It does, it was edited so the bible would be acceptable under Jame's religion rules.

[JlIaTMK]

im christian and i personally dont believe so much in the bible however i do believe in god and i believe in the scientific theory of life

but hey thats just my oponion i dont think anyone should be forced to believe something by someone else against their will

[shawty_redd]

It does, it was edited so the bible would be acceptable under Jame's religion rules.

so then other stuff written in the bible was left out??

[ryfitaDF]

so then other stuff written in the bible was left out??

yes. i dont' know all of them but there were actually 2 women in genesis: eve and lilith. eve was the weak housewife type woman and lilith was the strong feminist type. i'm guessing they edited lilith out to make men the dominant gender.

[CrimsonArchangel]

yes. i dont' know all of them but there were actually 2 women in genesis: eve and lilith. eve was the weak housewife type woman and lilith was the strong feminist type. i'm guessing they edited lilith out to make men the dominant gender.

Prove that. Eve was the first woman on earth. Who on earth was Lillith? Can you prove that?
And there are plenty more women in Genesis. Check it out.

[Spirited Away]

Prove that. Eve was the first woman on earth. Who on earth was Lillith? Can you prove that?
And there are plenty more women in Genesis. Check it out.

I think he is cross referencing between religions and an interpreting system called the midrash, however, it has been said that this same system influenced the Christian's interpretation of the Bible.

Anyway, this system was supposed to clear up inconsistencies in the story of Genesis, where God created Lilith at the time of Adam's creation. So according to it, the first woman was Lilith, who refused to be subordinate and left Adam. Only then did God created Eve.

There is a myth that continues on about how Lilith became jealous of Eve and kills human babies.. etc. So Eve represents the "paragon" of the perfect woman, while Lilith is known as the independent outcast.

Kind of sounds like a "moral" lesson for women to me. Be subordinate and brainless, men will love you, gain a mind of your own and earn their wrath. Please do correct me if any of the above info is wrong, I don't know much about religion and that info was the result of a 3 minute research.

[CrimsonArchangel]

I think he is cross referencing between religions and an interpreting system called the midrash, however, it has been said that this same system influenced the Christian's interpretation of the Bible.

Anyway, this system was supposed to clear up inconsistencies in the story of Genesis, where God created Lilith at the time of Adam's creation. So according to it, the first woman was Lilith, who refused to be subordinate and left Adam. Only then did God created Eve.

There is a myth that continues on about how Lilith became jealous of Eve and kills human babies.. etc. So Eve represents the "paragon" of the perfect woman, while Lilith is known as the independent outcast.

Kind of sounds like a "moral" lesson for women to me. Be subordinate and brainless, men will love you, gain a mind of your own and earn their wrath. Please do correct me if any of the above info is wrong, I don't know much about religion and that info was the result of a 3 minute research.

What exactly is the midrash again? *Pure curiosity* Never heard of it before. Is it some interpretation of the bible?
I still say that there were plenty of women in genesis, and I personally think and from what I have been taught and what I've learned, Lillith never existed....

[Spirited Away]

Here you go (<--about midrash).

[CrimsonArchangel]

Here you go (<--about midrash).

Thanks!

[ryfitaDF]

but now even though i go to a christian school i have so many doubs. i don't want to believe in a god who doesn't want people to be gay, even though people are born that way. the bible seems almost like a cult document sometimes. and besides if there is a god (which most evidance points to there being some kind of god.) i believe that god would be a female. because females are the symbol of life and loving. i don't think god would be a male.

if i believed in god i wouldn't think he hates gays. it keeps getting thrown back and forth between loving and wrathful. i'm much rather have a loving god who loves all people, believers and otherwise.

try that if you don't want to become a heretic.

[IIO__oII]

f i believed in god i wouldn't think he hates gays. it keeps getting thrown back and forth between loving and wrathful. i'm much rather have a loving god who loves all people, believers and otherwise.

try that if you don't want to become a heretic.

who said that God HATED gays? just said that it was wrong to be homosexual and into all those things.. like witchcraft... its just wrong.
he doesnt HATE ppl... hes not predujice.

[onenonly101]

i don't want to believe in a god who doesn't want people to be gay, even though people are born that way.

God doesn't want people to sin, therefore he doesn't want people to be gay.God created men and women to have for one another. Let me say here that God loves all homosexuals! However, He hates the deeds of homosexuality because they are sinful. God did not create any human being as a homosexual. They are not born that way, just as murderers are not born that way.People become homosexuals because they yield to abnorml acts or lust.

so then other stuff written in the bible was left out??

No, the bible is as it is. There is no proof saying that it was left out.

most christians force their beliefs on you and think their way IS THE ONLY way

I don't like the word most, because no one knows most of any kind of people. Yes some do force their beliefs on you just as some muslims, or jevoah wittness do. If you are going to believe i nsomething, you are going to believe that it is the only way. Esp with being a Christian, Jesus is the only way.

[Gypsy Eyes]

Personally, I dont believe in god. I honestly think that religion is just something that people use to fill up the space of the things that cannot be explained, or things that we dont know yet.

-The Bible: how do we know this is real? There is no physical proof proving that it is indeed factual. There are also many proven scientific facts contradicting many of the bibles "stories". Such as: Adam and Eve were supposedly created out of nowhere, and were the first man and women. Sciene proves that everything evolved from bacteria in the oceans, therefore going against the adam and eve story.

- Miracles: miracles are just a matter of opinion. anything these days can be considered a miracle, anything from someones shoe finally untying, to someone surviving cancer. Its just a matter of trying harder, and believing in yourself, not believing in some celestial being.

-Sins: its a matter of opinion, some thigns may be considered alright to some people, while those thigns might be considered a sin to other people.

if god is so forgiving, how come he made all the 10 commandments, if he would just forgive it anyway?

and lastly, if killing is against the ten commandments or gods rules, didnt he break them himself? with the whole great flood thing? Honestly, the whole idea of christianity is like a cult to me.

[ryfitaDF]

Personally, I dont believe in god. I honestly think that religion is just something that people use to fill up the space of the things that cannot be explained, or things that we dont know yet.

-The Bible: how do we know this is real? There is no physical proof proving that it is indeed factual. There are also many proven scientific facts contradicting many of the bibles "stories". Such as: Adam and Eve were supposedly created out of nowhere, and were the first man and women. Sciene proves that everything evolved from bacteria in the oceans, therefore going against the adam and eve story.

- Miracles: miracles are just a matter of opinion. anything these days can be considered a miracle, anything from someones shoe finally untying, to someone surviving cancer. Its just a matter of trying harder, and believing in yourself, not believing in some celestial being.

-Sins: its a matter of opinion, some thigns may be considered alright to some people, while those thigns might be considered a sin to other people.

if god is so forgiving, how come he made all the 10 commandments, if he would just forgive it anyway?

and lastly, if killing is against the ten commandments or gods rules, didnt he break them himself? with the whole great flood thing? Honestly, the whole idea of christianity is like a cult to me.

sing it!

i agree.

brainwash 100 people and call it a cult. brain wash 10,000,000 and call it christianity.

[*kryogenix*]

Personally, I dont believe in god. I honestly think that religion is just something that people use to fill up the space of the things that cannot be explained, or things that we dont know yet.

-The Bible: how do we know this is real? There is no physical proof proving that it is indeed factual. There are also many proven scientific facts contradicting many of the bibles "stories". Such as: Adam and Eve were supposedly created out of nowhere, and were the first man and women. Sciene proves that everything evolved from bacteria in the oceans, therefore going against the adam and eve story.

- Miracles: miracles are just a matter of opinion. anything these days can be considered a miracle, anything from someones shoe finally untying, to someone surviving cancer. Its just a matter of trying harder, and believing in yourself, not believing in some celestial being.

-Sins: its a matter of opinion, some thigns may be considered alright to some people, while those thigns might be considered a sin to other people.

if god is so forgiving, how come he made all the 10 commandments, if he would just forgive it anyway?

and lastly, if killing is against the ten commandments or gods rules, didnt he break them himself? with the whole great flood thing? Honestly, the whole idea of christianity is like a cult to me.

-Evolution is as much as a theory as the story of creation. Where did the bacteria come from if everything evolved from bacteria? Science also proved that spontaneous generation does not happen. But if a ominiscient, omnipotent being were present, he could create man from clay and a woman from man's rib. Now you'll ask, where did god come from? I will respond, God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. He has always existed. Physics says time exists when matter exists. God created matter. So he existed before time.

-For Catholics (I can't and won't speak for other religions), the rule of thumb is if it's against the 10 commandments, it is a sin.

-God is forgiving, but you have to ask for forgiveness first through the sacrament of penance and reconciliation. It's not like you can beak a commandment and assume you're forgiven.

-The great flood occured before the ten commandments were made. Noah came before Moses.


I have to eat breakfast right now, I'll be happy to clear up any questions about Catholicism. If you have anymore.

[ryfitaDF]

-Evolution is as much as a theory as the story of creation. Where did the bacteria come from if everything evolved from bacteria? Science also proved that spontaneous generation does not happen. But if a ominiscient, omnipotent being were present, he could create man from clay and a woman from man's rib. Now you'll ask, where did god come from? I will respond, God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. He has always existed. Physics says time exists when matter exists. God created matter. So he existed before time.

evolution is a little more believeible than religion, but it's still not 100% proven. i think she's just angry about people tellin her she's wrong for believing what she does, and i'm pretty sure everyone who has been in this debate knows how that feels.
also, before time? that seems peeeeeeeeeetty impossible.

-The great flood occured before the ten commandments were made. Noah came before Moses.

what about the crusades? that was god commanding death. eather that or the pope lied.

I have to eat breakfast right now, I'll be happy to clear up any questions about Catholicism. If you have anymore.

that's good. breakfast is the most imporatnd meal of the day. be sure to get enough folic acid and calcium. i can't stress that enough!

[onenonly101]

Personally, I dont believe in god. I honestly think that religion is just something that people use to fill up the space of the things that cannot be explained, or things that we dont know yet.

-The Bible: how do we know this is real? There is no physical proof proving that it is indeed factual. There are also many proven scientific facts contradicting many of the bibles "stories". Such as: Adam and Eve were supposedly created out of nowhere, and were the first man and women. Sciene proves that everything evolved from bacteria in the oceans, therefore going against the adam and eve story.

- Miracles: miracles are just a matter of opinion. anything these days can be considered a miracle, anything from someones shoe finally untying, to someone surviving cancer. Its just a matter of trying harder, and believing in yourself, not believing in some celestial being.

-Sins: its a matter of opinion, some thigns may be considered alright to some people, while those thigns might be considered a sin to other people.

if god is so forgiving, how come he made all the 10 commandments, if he would just forgive it anyway?

and lastly, if killing is against the ten commandments or gods rules, didnt he break them himself? with the whole great flood thing? Honestly, the whole idea of christianity is like a cult to me.

First there are not proven scientific facts contradicting the bible. That is why it is called the Evolution Theory, becuase it cannot be proven. The Bible is real, because God made it, plus there is no way that 66 books with 44 writers written over thousands of years have not contradicted each and speak the truth.

Miracles are things like surviving cancaer. It was a miracle for that doctor to understand the cancer and be able to treat it. It all comes back to God becaause he is the one who gave us the knowledge he is the one who made us. There is no such thing as just believing in yourself because you can accomplish nothing by yourself.

Sins are not a matter of opinion, if it were then there would be no laws, no government and we would all be dead. You have to have laws and limits in order to stay alive.

God made the ten commandents to give us something to follow, like a rubric your teacher gives you. That you should follow these things to get that grade. Wioth the ten commmandments it gives us basic things we should follow.

It is not thou shalt not kill. It is thou shalt not murder. Murder is the unlawfull killing of opeople. God made Noah make a boat for him and his children and his wivfe because he was the only upright person in the land. the flood killed those who were committing horrible crimes.

The idea of evolution is a cult thing to me because they can all believe that science that has not proven evolution and follow it basing all their decisions on it. You can't say Chrisitianity was a cult you would have to say religion was a cult and if that is so you are in a cult because being agonistic and atheist is a religion.

[ryfitaDF]

The idea of evolution is a cult thing to me because they can all believe that science that has not proven evolution and follow it basing all their decisions on it. You can't say Chrisitianity was a cult you would have to say religion was a cult and if that is so you are in a cult because being agonistic and atheist is a religion.

then what should i be called sicne i wish to not be in any religion? pagan? heathen? or just nonbeliever?

religion requies worship, and i don't worship anything.

[onenonly101]

but didn't you say you believe in your self? therefore you would worship yourself

[Spirited Away]

First there are not proven scientific facts contradicting the bible. That is why it is called the Evolution Theory, becuase it cannot be proven. The Bible is real, because God made it, plus there is no way that 66 books with 44 writers written over thousands of years have not contradicted each and speak the truth.

I think you meant that there are not any 'proven scientific facts' that can be accepted as truths to contradict the Bible.

Theories are experiments that have been tested and yield the same result most of the time and is accepted as universal 'truths'. Even Christians must admit that an atom is the smallest unit of an element or that the human body must consists of muscles and bones... etc. Such things are universal 'truths'.

However, in the case of the Bible, there are too many who would deny that the Bible is real. (Note that I did not mention God, only the Bible)

Miracles are things like surviving cancaer. It was a miracle for that doctor to understand the cancer and be able to treat it. It all comes back to God becaause he is the one who gave us the knowledge he is the one who made us. There is no such thing as just believing in yourself because you can accomplish nothing by yourself.

Science can cure cancer, so can a strong will to live (<--not so sure of the second one).

Sins are not a matter of opinion, if it were then there would be no laws, no government and we would all be dead. You have to have laws and limits in order to stay alive.

Some laws are meant to be altered, that's why there are amendments. Laws that are required to "stay alive" are laws that everyone must be able to agree with at some point. However, sins are a different story, I think (you would have to correct me if I'm wrong please). Lies are sins, but there are lies that will help people, 'white lies'. But I don't know if God would consider a white lie as grevious of a sin as a harmful lie.

God made the ten commandents to give us something to follow, like a rubric your teacher gives you. That you should follow these things to get that grade. Wioth the ten commmandments it gives us basic things we should follow.

I've never heard of the Ten Commandments until I was in high school. I never knew commandments before then and I was still a 'good' child. (Though I'm sure we'll have different definitions of what is good).
My morals kept me from doing bad things and my morals were learned from observing other non-believers.

The idea of evolution is a cult thing to me because they can all believe that science that has not proven evolution and follow it basing all their decisions on it. You can't say Chrisitianity was a cult you would have to say religion was a cult and if that is so you are in a cult because being agonistic and atheist is a religion. 

ryfitaDF made a very good point here. Agnostics and/or Atheists, do not worship as required in religion. Us heathens believe in concepts and the last time I checked concepts are not so hardcore as religions.

but didn't you say you believe in your self? therefore you would worship yourself

There is a difference between believing and worshipping. I believe that there will be rain, is the not the same as I will worship my belief that there will be rain.

[CrimsonArchangel]

then what should i be called sicne i wish to not be in any religion? pagan? heathen? or just nonbeliever?

religion requies worship, and i don't worship anything.

Just curious. You say you don't believe in God and what not, but why does your avatar say Lamb of God?

Sciene proves that everything evolved from bacteria in the oceans, therefore going against the adam and eve story.

Where did the bacteria and the ocean come from then? There had to be something that created them. And yes (If I sound rude here please forgive me), I know something had to creat that someone or something that created the bacteria and the ocean, but our limited knowledge is too, well... limited, to know that. You can ask even the most hardcore christian and they won't be able to tell you where he/that creator came from, but it's just pretty obvious that something's out there. Nothing comes out of nothing. Not even Adam and Eve. They didn't come out of nothing. If you knew the "story" (sorry again if I sound rude), you'd know that Adam came from dust and Eve from Adam's rib. (Yes, even that sounds rather far fetched, but..... you sort of have to go by faith and what you see around you. It is a scientific proof however, that men have one less rib on their rib cage than women. I'll look it up.

[Lena]

but didn't you say you believe in your self? therefore you would worship yourself

there's a huge level between believing and worshiping so don't make blatant accusations.

onenonly101...who ever said cults were a bad thing?

personally I am not a religion person...my family has religious backgrounds but I have personally chosen to ignore the concept of religion. the whole concept of religion was to explain the unexplained...but look at what scientist have uncovered...and with time we can only find more developments.

CrimsonArchangel...unless you want me to brief you on the heterotroph theory that I've memorized for the NYS Regents...basically we CAN break the bacteria down...and with a little research or consultation I can find out for you what caused the big bang that created the elements...the sugar chains...the amino acids that formed proteins that formed clumps...that engulfed substanced that developed into our one celled organisms. But we do have to take into consideration that it is a theory. There are serveral others...but I don't exactly want to do into the whole ecology unit of bio at this moment. Then I ask you...who created the so called creator.

The fault I find with religion is that if you were to follow everything in moderation the world would be a nice place...dumb but nice...but the fact of the matter just with Christianity there have been so many cases of corruption...and people taking it in so many different extremes I see problem with just the religion itself. I find it interesting because many of you are from a descent where your peoples wouldn't even been practicing religion if it were for imperialism and hardships press on people preexisting there from conquerors that were "acting in the name of god" I find that ironic.

You're all free to believe what you believe and dislike my thoughts...but I always find it troublesome when one says that god lead then through it all. well I guess you can look at it that way if you believe that the presense of god is an ambiance everywhere around you...but can't y'all be a little more egotistical...or be grateful for the people who helped you...i forgot...god sent them.

I can go on forever...but I will stop for tonight!

[CrimsonArchangel]

CrimsonArchangel...unless you want me to brief you on the heterotroph theory that I've memorized for the NYS Regents...basically we CAN break the bacteria down...and with a little research or consultation I can find out for you what caused the big bang that created the elements...the sugar chains...the amino acids that formed proteins that formed clumps...that engulfed substanced that developed into our one celled organisms. But we do have to take into consideration that it is a theory. There are serveral others...but I don't exactly want to do into the whole ecology unit of bio at this moment. Then I ask you...who created the so called creator.

No need to brief me on anything, , I had to learn it myself, don't worry.
And, sorry if I sound rude (yet again, haha), but I'd love to see what you can come up with about the big bang and stuff. I mean.... it all leads to the same thing, how did all those stars and gases and what not come to be?
And I said it before, I can't tell you who created the "Creator" because I don't know. Plain and simple. No one does. Like you said, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but for this I guess you go on faith (I have a feeling this will bring more debate, but I say bring it on, ). No one knows where the creator came from. That's something we'll have to ask him ourselves when we get to heaven.

[Spirited Away]

Then I ask you...who created the so called creator. 

That sounds like something I should try to answer because I was the one who originally brought up a concept of a Creator, who's not so much like God.

I will answer your question with a question of my own: if we're not creations, then what are we? What can we be called aside from creations?

[Gypsy Eyes]

Just curious. You say you don't believe in God and what not, but why does your avatar say Lamb of God?

Lamb of god is a band

[CrimsonArchangel]

Lamb of god is a band

I *know* that. But why mention something you don't believe in? Why like something that mentions something you don't believe in? If that made *any* sense....

[ryfitaDF]

I *know* that. But why mention something you don't believe in? Why like something that mentions something you don't believe in? If that made *any* sense....

why not? i'm not some kinda strict anti-christ who goes "oh, this has to do with god. i can't like it". i love their music and i'm not gunna let their name interfier with it.

they're not even christian. their first name was "burn the priest", so i'm guessing "lamb of god" is sarcasm.

[CrimsonArchangel]

why not? i'm not some kinda strict anti-christ who goes "oh, this has to do with god. i can't like it". i love their music and i'm not gunna let their name interfier with it.

they're not even christian. their first name was "burn the priest", so i'm guessing "lamb of god" is sarcasm.

No specific reason. I was just saying.

[onenonly101]

I've never heard of the Ten Commandments until I was in high school. I never knew commandments before then and I was still a 'good' child. (Though I'm sure we'll have different definitions of what is good).
My morals kept me from doing bad things and my morals were learned from observing other non-believers.

You might have never heard of The Ten Commandment exactly but the basic morals your p-arents or people surrounding you came from the Ten Commandment because they could've known them and realized they were basic moral ideas. Such as your parents tell you not to lie, don't make idols, rest on sunday. honor them, don't murder,don't commit adultry,don't steal, don't be jealous.
Ten Commandments: Do not worship any Gods before me, Do not make idols, Do not use the Lord's name in vain, Rest on the Sabbath and keep it holy, Honor your father and mother, Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not lie, and Do not covet anything your neighbor owns.

Oh and heathens,pagans and nonbelievers are not the same. Heathens don't go to church you can be a christian and not go to church. Pagans don't believe in God and will not go to church. Non believers aren't Christians, but that doesn't mean they don't want to believe in God.

find it interesting because many of you are from a descent where your peoples wouldn't even been practicing religion if it were for imperialism and hardships press on people preexisting there from conquerors that were "acting in the name of god"  I find that ironic.

ummm not me. I'm Nigerian American, from southwestern Nigeria where it is based on Christian and Catholic beliefs. Now if I was from north Nigeria that would be a different story.

there's a huge level between believing and worshiping  so don't make blatant accusations

not that huge. They weren't blatant accusations. I see it as, if you believe in only yourself and you accomplish something well you are going to praise yourself and the act of worship is praise, so ultimatly you are worshipping yourself.

What I believe is that everyone who says they don't believe there is God does too believe. The thing is they believe there is God, but they don't want to believe IN God. I don't know, what i get from ya'll is that is too easy. That you want to control your life, not God. The way I see it is that I would rather God control my life then have me control it and make bad decisions that will ultimatly question who am i and why do i get so much authority to ruin my life.

[Spirited Away]

You might have never heard of The Ten Commandment exactly but the basic morals your p-arents or people surrounding you came from the Ten Commandment because they could've known them and realized they were basic moral ideas. Such as your parents tell you not to lie, don't make idols, rest on sunday. honor them, don't murder,don't commit adultry,don't steal, don't be jealous.

So you're saying that before the Ten Commandments people were savages and babarians who killed for pleasure and they were people who lived in decadence and enjoyed every moment of it? Are you saying that people in Asia, Mid East were all savages because they didn't know of God's laws?

I don't see how you came to that deduction, but already I see it as an incredible offense.

My father is Buddhist, and as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), Buddhism came before the age of Christ. The teachings of the Buddha is older than the teachings of the Bible since Buddhism came to be first.

If anything, his morality branched off of the Buddha's teachings, not those of Christ or Man who claimed to speak for the Lord.

Oh and heathens,pagans and nonbelievers are not the same. Heathens don't go to church you can be a christian and not go to church. Pagans don't believe in God and will not go to church. Non believers aren't Christians, but that doesn't mean they don't want to believe in God.

And...? Did you wanted to clear something up?

not that huge. They weren't blatant accusations. I see it as, if you believe in only yourself and you accomplish something well you are going to praise yourself and the act of worship is praise, so ultimatly you are worshipping yourself.

There's a difference between believing in oneself and worshipping oneself. A person who believes in his/her own worth has confidence, while a person who worships him/herself is vain and conceited, psychotic even.
According to you, when parents praise their children for a job well done, parents are worshipping their kids? I don't think that makes much sense.
The act of worship is not so simple as praise or belief, it's beyond that. Do you mean to tell me that when you worship God, all you do is believe and praise Him? Do you not love Him, honor Him, and respect Him as well? Do you not entrust your life to Him?
There is a great difference.

What I believe is that everyone who says they don't believe there is God does too believe. The thing is they believe there is God, but they don't want to believe IN God. I don't know, what i get from ya'll is that is too easy. That you want to control your life, not God. The way I see it is that I would rather God control my life then have me control it and make bad decisions that will ultimatly question who am i and why do i get so much authority to ruin my life.

That's your own choosing to give God your control, many do not want that and you must respect their choice because they respect yours.
If I ruin my own life, then I have nothing more to say, but if my life is ruined and I believed in God, then God would be nothing more than a person who ruined my life.

[onenonly101]

So you're saying that before the Ten Commandments people were savages and babarians who killed for pleasure and they were people who lived in decadence and enjoyed every moment of it? Are you saying that people in Asia, Mid East were all savages because they didn't know of God's laws?

I don't see how you came to that deduction, but already I see it as an incredible offense.

I didn't say nor imply any of that.

And...? Did you wanted to clear something up?

then what should i be called sicne i wish to not be in any religion? pagan? heathen? or just nonbeliever?

That's your own choosing to give God your control, many do not want that and you must respect their choice because they respect yours.

I do respect that in my saying that i was meaning, i don't see why shouldn't you trust God if it would make your life better.

[Spirited Away]

I do respect that in my saying that i was meaning, i don't see why shouldn't you trust God if it would make your life better.

If trusting God makes my life easier were true, then all Christians would have an easy life.

I didn't say nor imply any of that.

But you did say that whatever morality my parents learn are branched off from the Ten Commandments. Which does imply that without the Ten Commandments, my parents would be bad people, and I see no logic in that.

[IIO__oII]

If trusting God makes my life easier were true, then all Christians would have an easy life.

maybe it makes OUR lives easier by us knowing that GOd is on our side, and that we knoe where we are going when we die.
its a great comfort to us.

[Spirited Away]

maybe it makes OUR lives easier by us knowing that GOd is on our side, and that we knoe where we are going when we die.
its a great comfort to us.

i don't get you.

first you say that Christians suffer more, now you say that Chrisitans have an easier life? Geez, make up your freaking mind.

[IIO__oII]

i don't get you.

first you say that Christians suffer more, now you say that Chrisitans have an easier life? Geez, make up your freaking mind.

err.. wut IM sayin is that now i KNOE WHERE i will END up when i DIE.. that ISNT the same thing as LIFE being easier....
and i said a MAYBE.. christians have different opinions...

[Spirited Away]

err.. wut IM sayin is that now i KNOE WHERE i will END up when i DIE.. that ISNT the same thing as LIFE being easier....
and i said a MAYBE.. christians have different opinions...

Having different opinions is not the same is contradicting yourself, by doing so you confused the heck out of me. Anyway, you agreed with Princess in an earlier post saying that Christians suffer more than non-believers.

I don't care to know where I will end up when I die, but I'm happy with that. You may be happy with knowing, but I can be just as satisfied with not knowing.

[ComradeRed]

How will you spend eternity? Smoking or non-smoking?

[ryfitaDF]

raise your fist in the air. DRUG FREE!

[stryker76]

Yeah i have to agree the christains do suffer more in this world.....i think its because of the fact that they believe that there is an all powerful god and yet when he doesnt come through for them they are disappointed and begin to think that maybe there was something else more they could have done at church. This truly is ignorance at its highest level...i mean come on we are told god gives miracles and then he doesnt...and for those that do happen they are always disproved by science. Religion is an endless circle of guilt....because you are always thinking you could do more...the church made it that way so that stupid people will fall into the trap and pay the church more money since they can force indulgence ne more.....YAY RELIGION ROCKS.......well if you into corruption and child molestation.......so i say screw religion.....poor chour boys.....

[onenonly101]

i don't know if this is what princess and iio_oii where saying but this is what i got from it.

Christians are persecuted more than anyone else, because we follow God. But we are persecuted by other humans. God makes our lives better because we know whenever we are in trouble or just need someone God will always be there.

Stryer they are not always disporved by science because if they were there would not be a God debate. Fall into what trap? If you didn't know tithing is a voluntary act. An act that helps support missionaries that have support our nonprofit organizations like feeding and housing the homless and various other things we do as a church

[BeyondElite]

oh my. People are crazy about this topic huh?