the bible...fairytales? Options

[cori-catastrophe]

earlier today, i was debating with another cber about the bible. she seemed to believe that jesus walked the earth, but she doesn't believe in god, nor any of the historical stories in the bible, such as the flood that god sent to rid the world of all evil.
i believe in god, as well as the stories in the bible.
i just think that over the many years people have made the stories into fairytales. perhaps they overdid it on the describing details by using dramatic hyperboles. people are the ones that leave us wondering about our faith, not god.
i believe that they all happened the original way that god planned them, but there isn't very much proof anymore because of people. although, god could also be testing our faithfulnes toward him being in control. what do you think?

[Simba]

There's definitely at least some truth in the Bible. How accurate and reliable it is? I can't quite say.

[cori-catastrophe]

there's obviously some truth in it, but which parts?

[Simba]

there's obviously some truth in it, but which parts?

Some of the "essentials" of Christianity. Say, God being the Supreme Being, Jesus being God incarnated, and so on.

Details and events such as the flood and all that aren't exactly necessary, however.

How are we supposed to know for sure?

One thing when it comes to the Bible.

[cori-catastrophe]

Some of the "essentials" of Christianity. Say, God being the Supreme Being, Jesus being God incarnated, and so on.

Details and events such as the flood and all that aren't exactly necessary, however.
One thing when it comes to the Bible.

but you see, i'm lost behind her reasoning. she said that she believed that jesus walked the earth. but she doesn't believe in god or the stories in the bible. i'm lost as to how that can be. i thought that jesus was god in human form. so how could she believe that jesus was real but god wasn't. isn't that trinity? i asked her about her reasoning but at that point it just seemed that she wanted to tell me that all christians were alike. from then on, she proceeded to tell me how closed-minded i was because i told her that her belifs was warped because she couldn't back up her ridiculous argument and she kept saying the same comment over and over and trying to change the subject. that is, after she told me that my reasoning for actually beliving in god and having a religion at all was "f**ked up". gah. i dislike trends.

[Simba]

Sounds like denial if she's not backing her reasoning up.

Anyhow, some people believe that Jesus was an actual person, sure, but wasn't at all an incarnate of God (though some say, maybe a prophet, or maybe no one special at all).

[bitesnkisses]

THere are truths in the bible, like that Jesus was the son of God and that he rose from the dead, but not all of it is true. After all the bible was written by man, not God or Jesus himself.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

There's some factual truths involving historical characters and events, but we're talking about general knowledge such as recognizing the existence of King Solomon, or the division of the Jewish tribes. Most probably due to the time in which the texts the bible is based upon were written.

The rest is cannon fodder for moderate skepticism and positive science.

[Sabastian]

Some of the prophecies made in the Bible have actually happend and have been proved that they have happend. I dont exactly remember, but there was a prophecy of a wall falling (back in biblical times) and it has been proven that the prophecy was actually made before the wall actually coming down. Because that prophecy was written in the dead sea scrolls and then some scientists used science to find out when the scrolls have been written; which turned out to be before the falling of this "wall". If anybody would like to go and actually research anything about this, correct me if i'm wrong. I'm just remembering things that I learned from church.

But think about it.. Most people that dont believe in a God or a Supreme being, if you listen to what they have to say most of it sounds more like excuses than explanations.

ALSO.. in the book of Revelations alot of the stuff happening now adds up to what It predicts. Like it saying that when the anti-christ actually comes to power there will be a way for him to massly produce his teachings. What better time than now? I mean with the internet and televisions, satelite radio o.o.

Just keep your faith in God. I think satan purposely gets those kinds of people to manipulate Christians into thinking that God isnt real.

[cori-catastrophe]

THere are truths in the bible, like that Jesus was the son of God and that he rose from the dead, but not all of it is true. After all the bible was written by man, not God or Jesus himself.

the bible was written by man, but god lead them and told themwhat to actually put in it. if the facts that the authors wrote weren't true, wouldn't he have had someone else do it?

[*mishyerr*]

I know many people who believe that Jesus lived. Isn't that a fact? But they also believe that Jesus' existence doesn't prove anything he claimed to be. Sure, the Bible has historical events, but to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible is faith.

[viugiufgjhfhjfhg...]

Just keep your faith in God. I think satan purposely gets those kinds of people to manipulate Christians into thinking that God isnt real.

Wowee Zowee. Glad to be on Satan's side (not that I was aware I had picked one until you posted anyway).

[cori-catastrophe]

I know many people who believe that Jesus lived. Isn't that a fact? But they also believe that Jesus' existence doesn't prove anything he claimed to be. Sure, the Bible has historical events, but to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible is faith.

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

[*mishyerr*]

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Um, I'm not sure. I don't know much about Judaism. I meant that some people that are athiest, agnostic, etc, believe that Jesus was, in fact, a man on earth, just like George Washington, who existed.

[Mulder]

Jewish people believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. The foundation of Judiasm is "the lord our god is one," so really, how could he be in the eyes of Jews? Many Jews (non-Orthodox) believe that the stories in the bible are supposed to be valued for their message, and not to be taken as fact. They're just stories that teach lessons.

[kimmytree]

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Yeah, they just believe in the Old Testament. They believe a messiah will eventually come, but they don't believe it was Jesus, mostly because he changed old Jewish law with the writtings in the New Testament. They dont believe God's law EVER changes.

And aside from that, they believe worshiping Jesus is Paganism (the belief/worship in more than one God). As far as I know, whenever the messiah does actually come, they dont believe he should be worshiped and placed as high as God (which in a sense is what Christianity does).

Not all Jews believe that about him - there's some who believe he never even existed. It just varies within the different "denominations", or sects.

[misoshiru]

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

[Simba]

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

I haven't read the article, but I know there's a fine line between scientists finding no evidence that something ever happened and finding evidence against something proving that something could have never happened.

[misoshiru]

^ Actually, I found it on the International Herald Tribune. But here's the link if you want to read it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/afr...b-0403moses.php

[cori-catastrophe]

Um, I'm not sure. I don't know much about Judaism. I meant that some people that are athiest, agnostic, etc, believe that Jesus was, in fact, a man on earth, just like George Washington, who existed.

i know. i really question some athiest and agnostic people's beliefs though because they believe that jesus isn't real but they believe people like george washington are. however, they back up their arguments by saying how are they supposed to believe in someone they've never met. if i'm not mistaken, i don't think any of them have met george washington either. so aren't they contradicting themselves a bit in saying that?

Jewish people believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. The foundation of Judiasm is "the lord our god is one," so really, how could he be in the eyes of Jews? Many Jews (non-Orthodox) believe that the stories in the bible are supposed to be valued for their message, and not to be taken as fact. They're just stories that teach lessons.

so if secular jews believe that what do orthodox jews believe?
like mish, i'm not educated on judaism very much.
in christian's eyes, secular jews are halfway correct. the stories in the bible do, in fact, teach lessons. they were written to teach lessons, but they were also written to tell his about history and miracles that jesus performed in the past so that christians wouldn't has to solely believe with only faith.

QUOTE(hazardous @ Apr 17 2007, 8:54 PM)

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Yeah, they just believe in the Old Testament. They believe a messiah will eventually come, but they don't believe it was Jesus, mostly because he changed old Jewish law with the writtings in the New Testament. They dont believe God's law EVER changes.

And aside from that, they believe worshiping Jesus is Paganism (the belief/worship in more than one God). As far as I know, whenever the messiah does actually come, they dont believe he should be worshiped and placed as high as God (which in a sense is what Christianity does).

Not all Jews believe that about him - there's some who believe he never even existed. It just varies within the different "denominations", or sects.

i actually think that judaism is alot like christianity in some ways. in fact, it seems very reasonable.
so jews don't believe in trinity?
and as far as the new testament goes, jesus didn't change it, he updated it.

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

i shall read the link you posted and comment later.
edit:i read the article link that you posted. the archaeologist didn't have very many facts to back up his findings, just his opinions.

[kimmytree]

^ Just look Judaism up on Wikipedia.

A person CANT believe in the Trinity unless they at least believe in Jesus. Jews dont believe in him, so how can they believe in the Trinity? lol.

In a sense he kinda did change it. Before, in the Old Testament, Jews were promised eternal life just for being Jewish. But then with the New Testament, it says you have to believe in Jesus (and do other things, depending on the denomination). So now, instead of a Jew automatically being saved, they have to do all this other crap that they dont believe in to begin with. And if they dont, they're damned. So yeah, God's law/promise changed for them.

[Mulder]

so if secular jews believe that what do orthodox jews believe?
like mish, i'm not educated on judaism very much.
in christian's eyes, secular jews are halfway correct. the stories in the bible do, in fact, teach lessons. they were written to teach lessons, but they were also written to tell his about history and miracles that jesus performed in the past so that christians wouldn't has to solely believe with only faith.

now you're including the New Testament. Jews don't believe in the New Testament at all, so if you're going to make a comment about Judiasm and the Bible, you should be referring strictly to the Old Testament.
Non-orthodox jews are not Secular. There are many sects of Judiasm, but the main ones are: Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic. Reform and Conservative Jews are less observant than Orthodox Jews. The religion doesn't change.

so jews don't believe in trinity?
and as far as the new testament goes, jesus didn't change it, he updated it.

Of course not.
And Jesus had nothing to do with the New Testament. Saul, who later changed his name to Paul, decided to tell the "history" of Jesus.

[misoshiru]

i know. i really question some athiest and agnostic people's beliefs though because they believe that jesus isn't real but they believe people like george washington are. however, they back up their arguments by saying how are they supposed to believe in someone they've never met. if i'm not mistaken, i don't think any of them have met george washington either. so aren't they contradicting themselves a bit in saying that?

Other than the Bible, where else has Jesus appeared in, in terms of proof of his existence?

[cori-catastrophe]

^ Just look Judaism up on Wikipedia.

A person CANT believe in the Trinity unless they at least believe in Jesus. Jews dont believe in him, so how can they believe in the Trinity? lol.

In a sense he kinda did change it. Before, in the Old Testament, Jews were promised eternal life just for being Jewish. But then with the New Testament, it says you have to believe in Jesus (and do other things, depending on the denomination). So now, instead of a Jew automatically being saved, they have to do all this other crap that they dont believe in to begin with. And if they dont, they're damned. So yeah, God's law/promise changed for them.

so in the old testament, jews were automatically saved and promised eternal life? that doesn't make much sence. jesus was jewish though, correct?
so they didn't believe that he was the messiah so he didn't have the power to change the law?

now you're including the New Testament. Jews don't believe in the New Testament at all, so if you're going to make a comment about Judiasm and the Bible, you should be referring strictly to the Old Testament.
Non-orthodox jews are not Secular. There are many sects of Judiasm, but the main ones are: Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic. Reform and Conservative Jews are less observant than Orthodox Jews. The religion doesn't change.

there are no jews who believe in the new testament, even just believing them to be stories?
secular jews aren't included in the old testament? i didn't know that.

Other than the Bible, where else has Jesus appeared in, in terms of proof of his existence?

he is all through history, as well as all the historical figures that people believe in.

[Mulder]

there are no jews who believe in the new testament, even just believing them to be stories?

No. The Old Testament is the Jew's covenant with God. The New Testament came after Christianity, and has nothing to do with Judiasm, except that it spawned from Judiasm.

secular jews aren't included in the old testament? i didn't know that.

I have no idea what you mean.
The sects I listed are recent. They formally started in the 20th century. The Old Testament was written thousands of years before jesus was even born, so I really don't understand what you mean.

[timeflies51]

I kind of skimmed through the posts, so sorry if someone said this already:

I think what she means that she believes Jesus was a real person, just not the son of God. I'd have to see what she said exactly, but she could be saying that he was just a good person and that he inspired a lot of people to do good things, plus that he was still crucified by the Roman and Pilate and stuff like that.

Quite a few Jews believe this. You could either believe in God or not believe in God and still take this view.

To the post above:

Funny, we just recently talked about this in Confirmation class (I'm Jewish).

Back during biblical times, there was only one form of Judaism, what today we call "Orthodox." Except, back then, they didn't call it that because, well, they didn't need to since there weren't any other sects yet. In the 20th Century, a group of Jews decided to reform the Jewish ideas and laws (hence "Reform Judaism") in order to apply Judaism to the modernisms of today. Then followed Conservative Judaism, which agreed that there needed to be some changes, yet still some preservation of the old ways. So the Jews who decided to not change and felt that they needed to keep the traditional ways were called "Orthodox."

So "secular Jews" and the different sects weren't even around until the 20th Century.

[misoshiru]

he is all through history, as well as all the historical figures that people believe in.

Oh, you mean historical Christian figures?
I don't doubt that he wasn't a real person. I just don't believe the whole "son of God" business, nor do I believe in a Christian God.

[Mulder]

So "secular Jews" and the different sects weren't even around until the 20th Century.

The sects I listed are recent. They formally started in the 20th century.

???

[cori-catastrophe]

No. The Old Testament is the Jew's covenant with God. The New Testament came after Christianity, and has nothing to do with Judiasm, except that it spawned from Judiasm.
I have no idea what you mean.
The sects I listed are recent. They formally started in the 20th century. The Old Testament was written thousands of years before jesus was even born, so I really don't understand what you mean.

eh. you answered my question.

I kind of skimmed through the posts, so sorry if someone said this already:

I think what she means that she believes Jesus was a real person, just not the son of God. I'd have to see what she said exactly, but she could be saying that he was just a good person and that he inspired a lot of people to do good things, plus that he was still crucified by the Roman and Pilate and stuff like that.

Quite a few Jews believe this. You could either believe in God or not believe in God and still take this view.

To the post above:

Funny, we just recently talked about this in Confirmation class (I'm Jewish).

Back during biblical times, there was only one form of Judaism, what today we call "Orthodox." Except, back then, they didn't call it that because, well, they didn't need to since there weren't any other sects yet. In the 20th Century, a group of Jews decided to reform the Jewish ideas and laws (hence "Reform Judaism") in order to apply Judaism to the modernisms of today. Then followed Conservative Judaism, which agreed that there needed to be some changes, yet still some preservation of the old ways. So the Jews who decided to not change and felt that they needed to keep the traditional ways were called "Orthodox."

So "secular Jews" and the different sects weren't even around until the 20th Century

well, i was starting to think she was jewish after hearing her arguments, but she said that she didn't have a religion. maybe she was just going for that whole "i'm an atheist emo kid" fad.

Oh, you mean historical Christian figures?
I don't doubt that he wasn't a real person. I just don't believe the whole "son of God" business, nor do I believe in a Christian God.

no, i mean all historical figures throughout history.
and i'm in no way trying to be rude, but when did this board come about your sole belifs?

[kimmytree]

so in the old testament, jews were automatically saved and promised eternal life? that doesn't make much sence. jesus was jewish though, correct?
so they didn't believe that he was the messiah so he didn't have the power to change the law?

Well, God established a covenant with them.

God's coventants are found in the Torah (Jewish Old Testament), and say that the Israelites are His chosen people. Jews are Israelites. I'm pretty sure not all Jews believe they are automatically saved, but some do. It just depends on the denomination.

[*kryogenix*]

This topic is incredibly offensive and I think we shouldn't be dealing with this controversy.

[misoshiru]

no, i mean all historical figures throughout history.
and i'm in no way trying to be rude, but when did this board come about your sole belifs?

Just because I'm putting out my beliefs doesn't mean that this thread is solely about them. Like James (kyrogenix) has said, this topic is offensive, and I find it so. I feel that you're trying to convert all of us to Christianity. I used to be Christian and went to a Christian school for 8 years. I know what the Bible teaches so don't try to pull shit on me. Just because some of us here don't believe in God doesn't mean that you have to go all Bible-thumping on us and try to prove whatever argument we have wrong.

[Mulder]

This topic is incredibly offensive and I think we shouldn't be dealing with this controversy.

please, keep this to one of your many threads.


and please, let's remember that we all have different opinions. What the bible teaches is different for each of us, and if you find someone else's opinion offensive, then don't post in this topic.

[misoshiru]

and please, let's remember that we all have different opinions. What the bible teaches is different for each of us, and if you find someone else's opinion offensive, then don't post in this topic.

Well, she was the one who attacked me for posting on this thread that I don't believe in a Christian God. How am I not supposed to feel offended by that?

[*kryogenix*]

please, keep this to one of your many threads.
and please, let's remember that we all have different opinions. What the bible teaches is different for each of us, and if you find someone else's opinion offensive, then don't post in this topic.

Alright then, I'll keep this in mind for later.

[cori-catastrophe]

Just because I'm putting out my beliefs doesn't mean that this thread is solely about them. Like James (kyrogenix) has said, this topic is offensive, and I find it so. I feel that you're trying to convert all of us to Christianity. I used to be Christian and went to a Christian school for 8 years. I know what the Bible teaches so don't try to pull shit on me. Just because some of us here don't believe in God doesn't mean that you have to go all Bible-thumping on us and try to prove whatever argument we have wrong.

you only find it offensive because i don't agree with you.
i'm not trying to force my belifs on you. it's called a debate. look it up.
and i wasn't attacking you. i don't understand your reasoning. when did i say anything about "posting on this thread that I don't believe in a Christian God"? i was just pointing out that the entire point of the board wasn't about your beliefs as an individual, yet you were trying to make it out as so. seriously. some people get "offended" too easily when people don't agree with them.

[misoshiru]

I don't care if you're a Christian. I was only offended because you tried to make it seem like I was saying that this whole thread had to do with me. Just because I point my beliefs out doesn't mean that. It's like me telling you that you're making this thread all about you because you're Christian. Big f**king deal.

[timeflies51]

???

What exactly are you confused about?




As for the "atheist emo kid fad" comment, I really hope that people are not becoming atheist to be cool. I happen to be an atheist as well, so that just makes me frown.

[NoSex]

i'm not trying to force my belifs on you. it's called a debate. look it up.

Debate! Where!?

Good luck with trying to prove a man came back from the dead 2,000 years ago. Come on, don't shift the burden of proof on us; nothing impressive about it.

[misoshiru]

i was just pointing out that the entire point of the board wasn't about your beliefs as an individual, yet you were trying to make it out as so.

oh, and so stating my beliefs makes me direct the entire thread so that it was about me is it? So all the opinions I have posted on this thread have also directed the whole thread so that it revolves around me? Posting a news link to the International Herald Tribune also makes it about me. Seriously wtf. You're the one here who wants everyone to give evidence to the stories in the Bible as being "fairytales". And then, instead of actually debating, you just try to revoke every argument by Bible-thumping. I feel that this thread is more of you just trying to convert us to Christianity.

[cori-catastrophe]

I don't care if you're a Christian. I was only offended because you tried to make it seem like I was saying that this whole thread had to do with me. Just because I point my beliefs out doesn't mean that. It's like me telling you that you're making this thread all about you because you're Christian. Big f**king deal.

if i wanting to make a thread all about being a christian, i would. no need to worry about that.

As for the "atheist emo kid fad" comment, I really hope that people are not becoming atheist to be cool. I happen to be an atheist as well, so that just makes me frown.

i believe some are. i do respect you for standing up for your belifs to be your own person, rather than trying to fit in.[/size=1]

Debate! Where!?

Good luck with trying to prove a man came back from the dead 2,000 years ago. Come on, don't shift the burden of proof on us; nothing impressive about it.

[size=1]and how exactally are you adding to this board?
i'm not trying to prove anything, just debating.
also, when did i say i was trying to impress anyone?

oh, and so stating my beliefs makes me direct the entire thread so that it was about me is it? So all the opinions I have posted on this thread have also directed the whole thread so that it revolves around me? Posting a news link to the International Herald Tribune also makes it about me. Seriously wtf. You're the one here who wants everyone to give evidence to the stories in the Bible as being "fairytales". And then, instead of actually debating, you just try to revoke every argument by Bible-thumping. I feel that this thread is more of you just trying to convert us to Christianity.

if you feel that, oh well.
i'm not trying to get people to post evidence for the bible being fairytales. i'm trying to see if people can give proof of their belifs.

[kimmytree]

^ Misoshiru is right though... you are attacking her.

and how exactally are you adding to this board?

She's contributing just as much as you are.

Seriously, wtf.

[cori-catastrophe]

^ Misoshiru is right though... you are attacking her.

She's contributing just as much as you are.

Seriously, wtf.

just as much as she is attacking me.
but everyone bashes christians nowa'days so i understand.

[misoshiru]

Oh, did it strike you that maybe you were attacking me first? Maybe that's why I retaliated.

Well if you didn't want people to post evidence about the Bible being a "fairytale", maybe you shouldn't have made that as the topic title.

[cori-catastrophe]

again, this is called a debate. in a debate, you state your opinions. that's what i'm asking on this board. i just wanted to see if people agreed with her or not and their reasoning so that i could dig into it more.
and honestly, i wasn't trying to be rude when i first said that statement, i just didn't know how to word it. i didn't mean it exactally as it came.

[callous]

Religion is my most favorite subject to discuss.

Heres what I say.Its ridiculous to believe everything in the bible REALLY happened.Take for instance, noahs ark.Its been scientifically proven that there was no such thing as a global flood.It is, however, possible to be a local flood which couldve been mistaken for a global flood.

Every story in the bible has a realistic problem.The resolutions teach us important life lessons.The characters, setting, stories are fiction.Just like any other bedtime story.

The definition of a fairytale is "a folk story about real-life problems, usually with imaginary characters and magical events".That pretty much sums up the bible for me.

[cori-catastrophe]

Religion is my most favorite subject to discuss.

Heres what I say.Its ridiculous to believe everything in the bible REALLY happened.Take for instance, noahs ark.Its been scientifically proven that there was no such thing as a global flood.It is, however, possible to be a local flood which couldve been mistaken for a global flood.

Every story in the bible has a realistic problem.The resolutions teach us important life lessons.The characters, setting, stories are fiction.Just like any other bedtime story.

The definition of a fairytale is "a folk story about real-life problems, usually with imaginary characters and magical events".That pretty much sums up the bible for me.

well, obviously some of them are pretty ridiculous to believe. but they do teach lessons on faith. so they do have a meaning.

[kimmytree]

well, obviously some of them are pretty ridiculous to believe. but they do teach lessons on faith. so they do have a meaning.

So some of them are fairytales, then?
That's basically what you just said.

[cori-catastrophe]

So some of them are fairytales, then?
That's basically what you just said.

some of them make not have been written to be literal is what i'm saying.
if someone believs that everything in the bible is to be taken literal and not over-exagerating, they're crazy. some of them are symbolic.
for example.
in revelations,

1:20 the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.

this isn't to be taken literal. do you actually think that god was holding seven stars? he wasn't.
no one knows fully what it means, but i'm pretty sure it represnts the seven continents.

[kimmytree]

some of them make not have been written to be literal is what i'm saying.
if someone believs that everything in the bible is to be taken literal and not over-exagerating, they're crazy. some of them are symbolic.
for example.
in revelations,

this isn't to be taken literal. do you actually think that god was holding seven stars? he wasn't.
no one knows fully what it means, but i'm pretty sure it represnts the seven continents.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

So we can come to the agreement that at least some of the stories in the bible arent to be taken literally. But then who's to say what stories can and cannot be taken literally? If one story is flawed, then that makes the whole book questionable.

Maybe God was over-exaggerating when he said that those who are blasphemous are damned, and that those who dont choose to believe in him are damned too? Hey, it's possible. Personally, I dont believe that anything in the Bible is the word of God, so it doesnt matter to me either way.

I really hope you dont think I'm trying to attack you or anything, because I'm honestly not trying to.

[cori-catastrophe]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

So we can come to the agreement that at least some of the stories in the bible arent to be taken literally. But then who's to say what stories can and cannot be taken literally? If one story is flawed, then that makes the whole book questionable.

Maybe God was over-exaggerating when he said that those who are blasphemous are damned, and that those who dont choose to believe in him are damned too? Hey, it's possible. Personally, I dont believe that anything in the Bible is the word of God, so it doesnt matter to me either way.

I really hope you dont think I'm trying to attack you or anything, because I'm honestly not trying to.

no, no offence taken.
yes, we agree on that. and i see your resoning. but it plainly states that if you have one or more god before you that you are destined for hell. it's the only unforgivable sin.

Verse 11
And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
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blasphemed
15,16; Exodus 20:7; 2 Samuel 12:14; 1 Kings 21:10,13; 2 Kings 18:30,35,37; 2 Kings 19:1-3,6,10,22; 2 Chronicles 32:14-17; Psalms 74:18,22; Matthew 26:65; Acts 6:11-13; Romans 2:24; 1 Timothy 1:13; Revelation 16:11,21
the name
Houbigant and others think that the name which this man blasphemed was the name of the god of his native land. But that hashshem THE NAME, denotes Jehovah, appears from its being used in the latter part of verse 16, as equivalent to "the name of Jehovah," in the former part. The Jews also frequently use hashshem for Jehovah.
cursed
Job 1:5,11,22; 2:5,9,10; Isaiah 8:21
brought him
Exodus 18:22,26; Numbers 15:33-35

Home > Commentaries > Treasury of Scripture Knowledge >
Leviticus > Chapter 24

The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Chapter Overview
1 The oil for the lamps.
5 The shew-bread.
10 Shelomith's son blasphemeth.
13 The law of blasphemy.
17 Of murder.
18 Of damage.
23 The blasphemer is stoned.


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Chapter 24

Verse 2
Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.


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that they
Exodus 27:20,21; 39:37; 40:24; Numbers 8:2-4; 1 Samuel 3:3,4
the lamps
2 Chronicles 13:11; Psalms 119:105,130; Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20; 11:2; Matthew 4:16; 5:16; Matthew 25:1-8; Luke 1:79; 12:35; John 1:4,9; 5:35; 8:12; Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Ephesians 1:17,18; 5:8-14; Philippians 2:15,16
burn continually
Heb. ascend.

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Verse 4
He shall order the lamps upon the pure candlestick before the LORD continually.
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the pure
Exodus 25:31-39; 31:8; 37:17-24; 39:37; Numbers 3:31; 4:9; 1 Kings 7:49; 1 Chronicles 28:15; Jeremiah 52:19; Zechariah 4:2,3,11-14; Hebrews 9:2; Revelation 1:20; 2:1,5; Revelation 11:4

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Verse 5
And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.
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Exodus 25:30; 40:23; 1 Kings 18:31; 1 Samuel 21:4,5; Matthew 12:4; Acts 26:7; James 1:1

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Verse 6
And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD.
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in two rows
1 Corinthians 14:40
pure
Exodus 25:23,24; 37:10-16; 39:36; 40:22,23; 1 Kings 7:48; 2 Chronicles 4:19; 13:11; Hebrews 9:2

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Verse 7
And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
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pure
2:2; Ephesians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25; Revelation 8:3,4
the bread
John 6:35,51
a memorial
Genesis 9:16; Exodus 12:14; 13:9; 17:14; Acts 10:4,31; 1 Corinthians 11:23-25

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Verse 8
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
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Numbers 4:7; 1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29; 2 Chronicles 2:4; Nehemiah 10:33; Matthew 12:3-5

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Verse 9
And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.
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Aaron's
8:31; 1 Samuel 21:6; Malachi 1:12; Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4
they shall
6:16; 8:3,31; 10:17; 21:22; Exodus 29:32,33

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Verse 10
And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;
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Exodus 12:38; Numbers 11:4

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Verse 11
And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
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blasphemed
15,16; Exodus 20:7; 2 Samuel 12:14; 1 Kings 21:10,13; 2 Kings 18:30,35,37; 2 Kings 19:1-3,6,10,22; 2 Chronicles 32:14-17; Psalms 74:18,22; Matthew 26:65; Acts 6:11-13; Romans 2:24; 1 Timothy 1:13; Revelation 16:11,21
the name
Houbigant and others think that the name which this man blasphemed was the name of the god of his native land. But that hashshem THE NAME, denotes Jehovah, appears from its being used in the latter part of verse 16, as equivalent to "the name of Jehovah," in the former part. The Jews also frequently use hashshem for Jehovah.
cursed
Job 1:5,11,22; 2:5,9,10; Isaiah 8:21
brought him
Exodus 18:22,26; Numbers 15:33-35

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Verse 12
And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
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that the mind of the Lord might be shewed them
Heb. to expound unto them according to the mouth of the Lord.
Exodus 18:15,16,23; Numbers 27:5; 36:5,6

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Verse 14
Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
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without
13:46; Numbers 5:2-4; 15:35
all that
Deuteronomy 13:9; 17:7
let all the
20:2,27; Numbers 15:35,36; Deuteronomy 13:10; 21:21; 22:21; Joshua 7:25; John 8:59; John 10:31-33; Acts 7:58,59

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Verse 15
And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
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bear his sin
5:1; 20:16,17; Numbers 9:13

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Verse 16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
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blasphemeth
As the word nakav not only signifies to curse, or blaspheme, but also to express, or distinguish by name, (Nu 1:17. 1 Ch 12:31. Isa 62:2,) hence the Jews, at a very early period, understood this law as prohibiting them from uttering the name Jehovah, on any other than sacred occasions. The Septuagint, which was made at least 250 years before Christ, renders it [Onomazon de to onoma Kyriou, thanato thanatoustho] "Whosoever nameth the name of the Lord, let him die;" from which we see that the Jews at this time were accustomed to pronounce adonay, or Lord, instead of Jehovah; for in place of it the Septuagint always put [Lo Kyrios.]
Exodus 20:7; 1 Kings 21:10-13; Psalms 74:10,18; 139:20; Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:28,29; John 8:58,59; 10:33-36; Acts 26:11; 1 Timothy 1:13; James 2:7

Home > Commentaries > Treasury of Scripture Knowledge >
Matthew > Chapter 12


The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Chapter Overview
1 Christ reproves the blindness of the Pharisees concerning the breach of the sabbath,
3 by scripture,
9 by reason,
13 and by a miracle.
22 He heals a man possessed that was blind and dumb;
24 and confuting the absurd charge of casting out devils by Beelzebub, he shows that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall never be forgiven.
36 Account shall be made of idle words.
38 He rebukes the unfaithful, who seek after a sign,
46 and shows who is his brother, sister, and mother.


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Chapter 12

Verse 1
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.


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went
Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5
to pluck
Deuteronomy 23:25

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Verse 2
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
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Behold
10; Exodus 20:9-11; 23:12; 31:15-17; 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36; Isaiah 58:13; Mark 3:2-5; Luke 6:6-11; 13:10-17; 23:56; John 5:9-11,16,17; 7:21-24; John 9:14-16

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Verse 3
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
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Have
5; 19:4; 21:16; 22:31; Mark 12:10,26; Luke 6:3; 10:26
what
1 Samuel 21:3-6; Mark 2:25,26

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Verse 4
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
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the shew-bread
Exodus 25:30; Leviticus 24:5-9
but
Exodus 29:32,33; Leviticus 8:31; 24:9

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Verse 5
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
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on
Numbers 28:9,10; John 7:22,23
profane
Nehemiah 13:17; Ezekiel 24:21

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Verse 6
But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
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41,42; 23:17-21; 2 Chronicles 6:18; Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1; John 2:19-21; Ephesians 2:20-22; Colossians 2:9; 1 Peter 2:4,5

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Verse 7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
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if
9:13; 22:29; Acts 13:27
I will
That is, I desire, or require mercy, or acts of humanity, rather than sacrifice.
Isaiah 1:11-17; Hosea 6:6; Micah 6:6-8
condemned
Job 32:3; Psalms 94:21; 109:31; Proverbs 17:15; James 5:6

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Verse 8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
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9:6; Mark 2:28; 9:4-7; Luke 6:5; John 5:17-23; 1 Corinthians 9:21; 16:2; Revelation 1:10

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Verse 9
And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
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he went
Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:6-11

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Verse 10
And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
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which
1 Kings 13:4-6; Zechariah 11:17; John 5:3
Is it
19:3; 22:17,18; Luke 13:14; 14:3-6; 20:22; John 5:10; 9:16
that
Isaiah 32:6; 59:4,13; Luke 6:6,7; 11:54; 23:2,14; John 8:6

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Verse 11
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
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what
This was an argumentum ad hominem. The Jews held that such things were lawful on the sabbath day, and our Saviour very properly appealed to their canons in vindication of his intention to heal the distressed man.
Luke 13:15-17; 14:5
and if
Exodus 23:4,5; Deuteronomy 22:4

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Verse 12
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
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is a
6:26; Luke 12:24
it is
Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9

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Verse 13
Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
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and it
Luke 13:13; Acts 3:7,8

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Verse 14
Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
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went
27:1; Mark 3:6; Luke 6:11; John 5:18; 10:39; 11:53,57
held a council
or, took counsel.

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Verse 15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
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he withdrew
10:23; Luke 6:12; John 7:1; 10:40-42; 11:54
great
4:24,25; 19:2; Mark 3:7-12; 6:56; Luke 6:17-19; John 9:4; Galatians 6:9; 1 Peter 2:21

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Verse 16
And charged them that they should not make him known:
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9:30; 17:9; Mark 7:36; Luke 5:14,15

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Verse 17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
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it
8:17; 13:35; 21:4; Isaiah 41:22,23; 42:9; 44:26; Luke 21:22; 24:44; John 10:35; 12:38; 19:28; Acts 13:27
saying
Isaiah 42:1-4

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Verse 18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
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Behold
This prophecy is expressly referred to the Messiah by the Targumist, who renders, "Behold my servant the Messiah," etc., ha avdi mesheecha; and it was amply fulfilled in the gentle, lowly, condescending and beneficent nature of Christ's miracles and personal ministry, his perseverance in the midst of opposition, without engaging in contentious disputation, and his kind and tender dealing with weak and tempted believers.
my servant
Isaiah 49:5,6; 52:13; 53:11; Zechariah 3:8; Philippians 2:6,7
whom I
Psalms 89:19; Isaiah 49:1-3; Luke 23:35; 1 Peter 2:4
my beloved
3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 9:35; Ephesians 1:6; Colossians 1:1,13; *marg:; 2 Peter 1:17
I will
3:16; Isaiah 11:2; 59:20,21; 61:1-3; Luke 3:22; 4:18; John 1:32-34; 3:34; Acts 10:38
and he
Isaiah 32:15,16; 49:6; 60:2,3; 62:2; Jeremiah 16:19; Luke 2:31,32; Acts 11:18; Acts 13:46-48; 14:27; 26:17,18; Romans 15:9-12; Ephesians 2:11-13; 3:5-8

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Verse 19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
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11:29; Zechariah 9:9; Luke 17:20; John 18:36-38; 2 Corinthians 10:1; 2 Timothy 2:24,25

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Verse 20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
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bruised
11:28; 2 Kings 18:21; Psalms 51:17; 147:3; Isaiah 40:11; 57:15; 61:1-3; Lamentations 3:31-34; Ezekiel 34:16; Luke 4:18; 2 Corinthians 2:7; Hebrews 12:12,13
till
Psalms 98:1-3; Isaiah 42:3,4; Romans 15:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:14; 10:3-5; Revelation 6:2; Revelation 19:11-21

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Verse 21
And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
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Isaiah 11:10; Romans 15:12,13; Ephesians 1:12,13; Colossians 1:27

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Verse 22
Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
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was
9:32; Mark 3:11; Luke 11:14
he healed
Mark 7:35-37; 9:17-26
blind
Psalms 51:15; Isaiah 29:18; 32:3,4; 35:5,6; Acts 26:18

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Verse 23
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
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the people
9:33; 15:30,31
Is not
9:27; 15:22; 21:9; 22:42,43; John 4:29; 7:40-42

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Verse 24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
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when
9:34; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15
Beelzebub
Gr. Beelzebul, and so.

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Verse 25
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
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Jesus
9:4; Psalms 139:2; Jeremiah 17:10; Amos 4:13; Mark 2:8; John 2:24,25; 21:17; 1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 2:23
Every kingdom
Isaiah 9:21; 19:2,3; Mark 3:23-26; Luke 11:17,18; Galatians 5:15; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 17:16,17

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Verse 26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
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his
John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:13; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 9:11; Revelation 12:9; 16:10; 20:2,3

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Verse 27
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
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Beelzebub
by whom
Mark 9:38,39; Luke 9:49,50; 11:19; Acts 19:13-16
they
12:41,42; Luke 19:22; Romans 3:19

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Verse 28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
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I cast
18; Mark 16:17; Luke 11:20; Acts 10:38
then
6:33; 21:31,43; Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 2:44; 7:14; Mark 1:15; 11:10; Luke 1:32,33; 9:2; 10:11; 11:20; 16:16; 17:20,21; Romans 14:17; Colossians 1:13; Hebrews 12:28

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Verse 29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
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Isaiah 49:24; 53:12; Mark 3:27; Luke 11:21,22; 1 John 3:8; 4:4; Revelation 12:7-10; Revelation 20:1-3,7-9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verse 30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
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that is
6:24; Joshua 5:13; 24:15; 1 Chronicles 12:17,18; Mark 9:40; Luke 9:50; 11:23; 2 Corinthians 6:15,16; 1 John 2:19; Revelation 3:15,16
gathereth
Genesis 49:10; Hosea 1:11; John 11:52

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Verse 31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All
Isaiah 1:18; 55:7; Ezekiel 33:11; 1 Timothy 1:13-15; Hebrews 6:4; *etc:; Hebrews 10:26,29; 1 John 1:9; 2:1,2
blasphemy
Blasphemy, [blasphemia (blasfhmiða)] either from [ ()] to hurt, or blast the reputation, or from [ ()] to smite with words, or reports, when applied to men denotes injurious speaking, or calumny, and when used in reference to God signifies speaking impiously of his nature, attributes, and works.
but
Mark 3:28-30; Luke 12:10; Acts 7:51; 1 John 5:16

Verse 32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whosoever
11:19; 13:55; Luke 7:34; 23:34; John 7:12,52; Acts 3:14,15,19; Acts 26:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:13,15
but
John 7:39; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-29
it shall not
Job 36:13; Mark 3:29; Luke 16:23-26

[kimmytree]

no, no offence taken.
yes, we agree on that. and i see your resoning. but it plainly states that if you have one or more god before you that you are destined for hell. it's the only unforgivable sin.

Yes, I'm aware the Bible clearly states that. But who's to say that's not something meant to be taken literally? You cant pick and choose dear.

You mean paganism? Do you know what book of the Bible mentions that? I think it's somewhere in the Old Testament. In that case (hahah it's almost like I'm siding w/ the Jews on this one), Christianity is almost like paganism. Even though Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and God are one, they are still in a sense three different things that are worshiped; God being the Father, and Jesus being the Son / Messiah. Even though in some places the Bible says that the Father and Son are one, there are other verses that make you think the exact opposite.

Gahhhh that's alot of info you copy and pasted. I honestly dont think anyone is going to take the time to read all of that.

[cori-catastrophe]

Yes, I'm aware the Bible clearly states that. But who's to say that's not something meant to be taken literally? You cant pick and choose dear.

You mean paganism? Do you know what book of the Bible mentions that? I think it's somewhere in the Old Testament. In that case (hahah it's almost like I'm siding w/ the Jews on this one), Christianity is almost like paganism. Even though Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and God are one, they are still in a sense three different things that are worshiped; God being the Father, and Jesus being the Son / Messiah. Even though in some places the Bible says that the Father and Son are one, there are other verses that make you think the exact opposite.

Gahhhh that's alot of info you copy and pasted. I honestly dont think anyone is going to take the time to read all of that.

it's a thing called faith.
i'm not picking and choosing.
the father, son, and holy ghost are all god, only in different forms. you worship god in christianity, and if they're all god, you worship all of them.
could you please post the verses that say otherwise?
yes, i did. everyone likes historical facts.
but maybe people are just lazy. i read all of it.

[NoSex]

it's a thing called faith.

Faith is not permissible in meaningful debate, dummy.

[cori-catastrophe]

Faith is not permissible in meaningful debate, dummy.

i don't see why not. it's a debate about the chirstian religion, which faith is a majority of, dummy.

[kimmytree]

i don't see why not. it's a debate about the chirstian religion, which faith is a majority of, dummy.

Well, a debate is usually more of a logical discussion... soooo.

Anyone can have faith in anything. Heck, I could have faith that Scientology is THE religion. But without factual proof, I would have no way of proving myself. See? Faith isnt enough to prove or debate something.

[kimmytree]

it's a thing called faith.
i'm not picking and choosing.
the father, son, and holy ghost are all god, only in different forms. you worship god in christianity, and if they're all god, you worship all of them.
could you please post the verses that say otherwise?
yes, i did. everyone likes historical facts.
but maybe people are just lazy. i read all of it.

I'll edit this in a few minutes with the verses - I'm supposed to be studying right now.

Well, sometimes in the Bible it says that the Father and the Son are the same person, and then other times it gives the impression that they arent the same person at all. If Jesus really was God in human form, then why would he pray to God? If he really was God, then he was just talking to himself. And why would he do things because his father told him to do so? That doesnt make much sense, now does it?

[sorry about the double post]

[Simba]

Did somebody say faith?

[misoshiru]

[size=1]it's a thing called faith.

Anyone could have faith in anything. You need to have evidence in debate.
For example, it's like me saying that I have faith that the Bible is made up of fairytales. And obviously, this is not a valid point.

[*Podomaht*]

GOD HATES FAGS

[cori-catastrophe]

Well, a debate is usually more of a logical discussion... soooo.

Anyone can have faith in anything. Heck, I could have faith that Scientology is THE religion. But without factual proof, I would have no way of proving myself. See? Faith isnt enough to prove or debate something.

ayy, but you can use faith to back yourself up. i see. that's logical.

I'll edit this in a few minutes with the verses - I'm supposed to be studying right now.

Well, sometimes in the Bible it says that the Father and the Son are the same person, and then other times it gives the impression that they arent the same person at all. If Jesus really was God in human form, then why would he pray to God? If he really was God, then he was just talking to himself. And why would he do things because his father told him to do so? That doesnt make much sense, now does it?

[sorry about the double post]

where's the verses?

Did somebody say faith?

woooow. someone has too much time on their hands.

GOD HATES FAGS

ahh. i see your copying the most hated family in america. how original.

[Simba]

woooow. someone has too much time on their hands.

Actually, the FSM argument against the teaching of intelligent design wasn't half bad. Look into it. There's a reason why it's become so popular among atheists and agnostics.

[cori-catastrophe]

Actually, the FSM argument against the teaching of intelligent design wasn't half bad. Look into it. There's a reason why it's become so popular among atheists and agnostics.

because they'd rather believe in non-sense instead of god.
i really love how some atheists use excuses and try to change the subject rather than backing themselves up with facts and proof. notice i said some.
they say they don't believe in god because there's no proof because they've never met him. have they met a spaghetti monster?
i'm so confused now.

[Simba]

FSM is a satirical parody of God.

They're not at all claiming to have met a flying spaghetti monster. In fact, they're even say he's invisible. The "non-sense" in the logic of FSM is actually, for the most part, parodying God.

The central belief is that there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, which created the entire universe "after drinking heavily." All evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians' faith; a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster "is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage."

[kimmytree]

because they'd rather believe in non-sense instead of god.
i really love how some atheists use excuses and try to change the subject rather than backing themselves up with facts and proof. notice i said some.
they say they don't believe in god because there's no proof because they've never met him. have they met a spaghetti monster?
i'm so confused now.

Have you ever met God? Unless you actually have, you can neither prove or disprove he exists. In that sense, Athiesm is no more ridiculous than Christianity.

But that's why I'm Agnostic. I dont think we as humans will EVER be able to prove or disprove the existance of a God. Besides, who cares? There's so much more to life.

[cori-catastrophe]

Have you ever met God? Unless you actually have, you can neither prove or disprove he exists. In that sense, Athiesm is no more ridiculous than Christianity.

But that's why I'm Agnostic. I dont think we as humans will EVER be able to prove or disprove the existance of a God. Besides, who cares? There's so much more to life.

no one has exept the people that have died and risen.

christians have proof rather than excuses.
if we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. the bible says, "in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth"[genesis 1 :1].
most atheists maintain that there was no beginning. the idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy. and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

if there was no god, how did we get here?
if there was no god, how would everything in the earth be perfect?
if there was no god, how could the earth be the exact distance from the sun to be safe but still non-freezing. the perfect temperature? yes.
if there was no god, how could there be an abundent ammount of hydrogen, which is needed for everday life?
if there was no god, what would our purpose in life be?
is all this a coincidence?

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm

[kimmytree]

^ Those are all valid points. I'm not trying to disprove the existance of God though. I'm 99% sure there IS one. But still, we can never be absolutely certain.

no one has exept the people that have died and risen.

Exactly. Have any of us died and risen? No. So how does that validate anything?

christians have proof rather than excuses.

What proof? Faith? That doesnt prove anything dear.
Btw, how is anything that's against Christianity an excuse? What, do you think all non-Christians are blind, and just being rebellious or something?

if there was no god, how did we get here? How did God get here? See, it goes both ways.

if there was no god, how would everything in the earth be perfect? How can you be so certain that the world we live in is perfect? We dont know any different. If God's creation is perfect, then he is perfect. That's what the Bible says anyways, that he indeed is perfect. Well, how did a perfect God get here? You cant answer that, no one can. But its the same argument with evolution - how we got here.

if there was no god, how could the earth be the exact distance from the sun to be safe but still non-freezing. the perfect temperature? yes. By chance. Look at how HUGE our solar system is. Scientists believe we're just a little spec. Same thing with our own Galaxy, we're just a tiny little spec compared to everything else that is out there. There's no telling how many planets are out there. Our planet just has everything needed to sustain life. Do you really think that we're the only form of life? Or, that Earth's the only planet capible of sustaining life? o_O

if there was no god, how could there be an abundent ammount of hydrogen, which is needed for everday life? See answer above.

if there was no god, what would our purpose in life be? Who knows? Ever think that Christianity, or any other religion was created by man to give a sense of purpose to life? You never know. What's the purpose in life for Christians? To worship and satisfy already perfect God?

Not to be rude or anything, but you're a Christian... and you dont even capitalize the most important part of your religion? You believe he's the perfect creator, and sent his son to die for your sins, and you cant take the time to capitalize his name? Show some respect... it's God, not god.

[misoshiru]

no one has exept the people that have died and risen.

christians have proof rather than excuses.
if we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. the bible says, "in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth"[genesis 1 :1].
most atheists maintain that there was no beginning. the idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy. and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been. that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

if there was no god, how did we get here?
if there was no god, how would everything in the earth be perfect?
if there was no god, how could the earth be the exact distance from the sun to be safe but still non-freezing. the perfect temperature? yes.
if there was no god, how could there be an abundent ammount of hydrogen, which is needed for everday life?
if there was no god, what would our purpose in life be?
is all this a coincidence?

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm

How do you disprove evolution?

[kimmytree]

How do you disprove evolution?

Through faith, silly!

[misoshiru]

Through faith, silly!

how could I have not known?! le gasp!

[cori-catastrophe]

^ Those are all valid points. I'm not trying to disprove the existance of God though. I'm 99% sure there IS one. But still, we can never be absolutely certain.
[/size]
Exactly. Have any of us died and risen? No. So how does that validate anything?
[/size]
What proof? Faith? That doesnt prove anything dear.
Btw, how is anything that's against Christianity an excuse? What, do you think all non-Christians are blind, and just being rebellious or something?

if there was no god, how did we get here? [/size]

[size=1]if there was no god, how would everything in the earth be perfect? How can you be so certain that the world we live in is perfect? We dont know any different. If God's creation is perfect, then he is perfect. That's what the Bible says anyways, that he indeed is perfect. Well, how did a perfect God get here? You cant answer that, no one can. But its the same argument with evolution - how we got here.

if there was no god, how could the earth be the exact distance from the sun to be safe but still non-freezing. the perfect temperature? yes. By chance. Look at how HUGE our solar system is. Scientists believe we're just a little spec. Same thing with our own Galaxy, we're just a tiny little spec compared to everything else that is out there. There's no telling how many planets are out there. Our planet just has everything needed to sustain life. Do you really think that we're the only form of life? Or, that Earth's the only planet capible of sustaining life? o_O

if there was no god, how could there be an abundent ammount of hydrogen, which is needed for everday life? See answer above.

if there was no god, what would our purpose in life be? Who knows? Ever think that Christianity, or any other religion was created by man to give a sense of purpose to life? You never know. What's the purpose in life for Christians? To worship and satisfy already perfect God?

Not to be rude or anything, but you're a Christian... and you dont even capitalize the most important part of your religion? You believe he's the perfect creator, and sent his son to die for your sins, and you cant take the time to capitalize his name? Show some respect... it's God, not god.

i love sarcasm.
to start, i don't capitalize his name because my caps lock button is broken and i don't feel like going out and buying another laptop, nor do i have the money to get it fixed.
what's it matter to you? you're agnostic. you don't worship him.
let's see here.
you're right. none of us have died and risen, so what was the point of asking that question in the first place if you were actually looking for an answer?
i didn't say that everyone was making exuses, did i? it's just that lots of times, people want to change the subject or make excuses when it comes to subjects like this. or when someone actually proves them wrong and they don't want to believe the facts taht are right in front of their noses.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/WhoC...CreatedGod.html
that explains who created god and how he got there, not here. a mistake on your part.
everything in the world is perfect. if the earth was in a different location, we'd all die within seconds. and you tell me that's just a chance of coincidence? how gullible are you?
the purpose of everyone's life, not just christians, is to worship and praise the almighty god. and to spread his news.
seriously though, if we didn't have a purpose, why would we exist? why would we be here? there would be no need for us to. it'd just be a waste.
i believe there is a god. i believe he's not silent. he speaks loud and clear to those who believe. that's the price of admission: faith. it doesn't have to be a robust, mature faith at the start, but a sincere willingness to believe is usually rewarded with increasing confidence.

[kimmytree]

i love sarcasm.
to start, i don't capitalize his name because my caps lock button is broken and i don't feel like going out and buying another laptop, nor do i have the money to get it fixed.
what's it matter to you? you're agnostic. you don't worship him.
let's see here.
you're right. none of us have died and risen, so what was the point of asking that question in the first place if you were actually looking for an answer?
i didn't say that everyone was making exuses, did i? it's just that lots of times, people want to change the subject or make excuses when it comes to subjects like this. or when someone actually proves them wrong and they don't want to believe the facts taht are right in front of their noses.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/WhoC...CreatedGod.html
that explains who created god and how he got there, not here. a mistake on your part.
everything in the world is perfect. if the earth was in a different location, we'd all die within seconds. and you tell me that's just a chance of coincidence? how gullible are you?
the purpose of everyone's life, not just christians, is to worship and praise the almighty god. and to spread his news.
seriously though, if we didn't have a purpose, why would we exist? why would we be here? there would be no need for us to. it'd just be a waste.
i believe there is a god. i believe he's not silent. he speaks loud and clear to those who believe. that's the price of admission: faith. it doesn't have to be a robust, mature faith at the start, but a sincere willingness to believe is usually rewarded with increasing confidence.

Eh, well sorry about your keyboard then.

Just because I consider myself to be agnostic, doesnt mean that I dont worship him. And it depends on what you mean by "worship". Agnostic isnt the same thing as being an Athiest. I believe in God, and try to live my life the best I can. Who are you to judge me?

Well, then why did you answer it? I stated that we can never be completely sure if he exists or not, since no one has actually "seen" him. Then you respond saying that only those who have died and gone to Heaven know. I wasnt even asking you a question. I already knew the answer.

No, but you said that Christians dont give excuses... that gives me the impression that you meant everyone else does. And, believe what facts? All you're throwing out are your personal beliefs, which are based on faith.

As far as the world being perfect by our distance from the sun and our location... I completely agree with you. That is perfect. I meant everything else around us. We only understand and know what is around us. So how can we even begin to comprehend what could have happened differently?

Okay. Then kindly answer this for me. What was God's purpose of creating us to begin with? Because he was lonely...? If he really did create the earth and mankind out of loneliness, then he cannot be perfect.

Hey, me too. Whoop de doo. I was a believer for 3 - 4 years, and he never clearly showed himself to me. Never. How does he speak loud and clear? Mind giving me some examples? lol. Because I've never heard of God actually doing that. I mean, I've heard people "claim" that God told them to do something, but that's it. And most of the people that I know who have claimed things like that appear to be total fruitcakes. Not because of their faith, but from other things.

[Simba]

to start, i don't capitalize his name because my caps lock button is broken and i don't feel like going out and buying another laptop, nor do i have the money to get it fixed.

Shift button?

[misoshiru]

Shift button?

Haha, that was what I was thinking.

I don't feel that the link you gave: http://www.doesgodexist.org isn't a valid argument. Why? Because that argument is made by Christians. If you can show me evidence brought up by a non-believer, then maybe I might re-think my beliefs. Like Kim said, of how she used to be Christian, I was a Christian for 8 years, and never once in those 8 years did anything happen that gave me any sort of proof for the existence of any god.

[cori-catastrophe]

Eh, well sorry about your keyboard then.

Just because I consider myself to be agnostic, doesnt mean that I dont worship him. And it depends on what you mean by "worship". Agnostic isnt the same thing as being an Athiest. I believe in God, and try to live my life the best I can. Who are you to judge me?

Well, then why did you answer it? I stated that we can never be completely sure if he exists or not, since no one has actually "seen" him. Then you respond saying that only those who have died and gone to Heaven know. I wasnt even asking you a question. I already knew the answer.

No, but you said that Christians dont give excuses... that gives me the impression that you meant everyone else does. And, believe what facts? All you're throwing out are your personal beliefs, which are based on faith.

As far as the world being perfect by our distance from the sun and our location... I completely agree with you. That is perfect. I meant everything else around us. We only understand and know what is around us. So how can we even begin to comprehend what could have happened differently?

Okay. Then kindly answer this for me. What was God's purpose of creating us to begin with? Because he was lonely...? If he really did create the earth and mankind out of loneliness, then he cannot be perfect.

Hey, me too. Whoop de doo. I was a believer for 3 - 4 years, and he never clearly showed himself to me. Never. How does he speak loud and clear? Mind giving me some examples? lol. Because I've never heard of God actually doing that. I mean, I've heard people "claim" that God told them to do something, but that's it. And most of the people that I know who have claimed things like that appear to be total fruitcakes. Not because of their faith, but from other things.

i read arjuna's post. i forgot about the shift button.
you said that you stated that.
"Have you ever met God?"
as far as i know, statements aren't ended with a question mark, nor do they start with a who, what, when, where, why, or how.
you're throwing out your personal belifs as well. you've thrown out no facts either but you expect me to go along with it?
you are correct. we can't understand what could've gone differently...without God. the world's attitude and behaviour is very far from perfect. but that's not because of God, it's because of the wreckless people in the world who sin withou thinking anything about it.
everyone sins. possibly, christians more than others. it's human nature for people to try to be rebellious and to sin.
when did i say he created us out of lonliness? actually, he created us to spread his glory.
the short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” revelation 4:11 says, “Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.” colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by Him and for Him.”
being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God—and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. as God, He needs nothing. in all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. if we had never existed, God would still be God—the Unchanging One (Malachi 3:6).
the I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. when He made the universe, He did what pleased Him, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).



also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. logically, He could not do so. if God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. the thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.
recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and “crown him with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5), and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15).



The I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Him, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).



Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.

God speaks to me everyday. it's called prayer. look into it.
and maybe he never spoke to you because you were atually afraid to let him in. it's your choice. he doesn't force anything apon anyone.

Haha, that was what I was thinking.

I don't feel that the link you gave: http://www.doesgodexist.org isn't a valid argument. Why? Because that argument is made by Christians. If you can show me evidence brought up by a non-believer, then maybe I might re-think my beliefs. Like Kim said, of how she used to be Christian, I was a Christian for 8 years, and never once in those 8 years did anything happen that gave me any sort of proof for the existence of any god.

if you were thinking that, why didn't you post it?
the person who made that website was a non-believer.
do you reliaze you've already said that?
refer to my post above.

[misoshiru]

if you were thinking that, why didn't you post it?
the person who made that website was a non-believer.
do you reliaze you've already said that?
refer to my post above.

The first part of my reply "that was what I was thinking" was directed to Arjuna's comment about the shift button, not to you.

so wtf are you talking about? Let me ask you, how can you explain the concept of God creating the earth in 6 days? And as I asked you before, how do you explain evolution?

[cori-catastrophe]

The first part of my reply "that was what I was thinking" was directed to Arjuna's comment about the shift button, not to you.

so wtf are you talking about? Let me ask you, how can you explain the concept of God creating the earth in 6 days? And as I asked you before, how do you explain evolution?

his post was directed toward me, and you were agreeing.
god can do anything. this is where you keep making a mistake. god isn't like humans. he is a spirit, not a human being.
God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. logically, He could not do so. if God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. the thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.
recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and “crown him with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5), and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15).
^^'twas taken from my post before, which you obviously didn't read.
and why would i "explain" evolution when i don't believe it?

[kimmytree]

i read arjuna's post. i forgot about the shift button.
you said that you stated that.
"Have you ever met God?"
as far as i know, statements aren't ended with a question mark, nor do they start with a who, what, when, where, why, or how.
you're throwing out your personal belifs as well. you've thrown out no facts either but you expect me to go along with it?
you are correct. we can't understand what could've gone differently...without God. the world's attitude and behaviour is very far from perfect. but that's not because of God, it's because of the wreckless people in the world who sin withou thinking anything about it.
everyone sins. possibly, christians more than others. it's human nature for people to try to be rebellious and to sin.
when did i say he created us out of lonliness? actually, he created us to spread his glory.
the short answer to the question "why did God create us?" is "for His pleasure." revelation 4:11 says, "Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created." colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: "All things were created by Him and for Him."
being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God—and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. as God, He needs nothing. in all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a "friend." He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. if we had never existed, God would still be God—the Unchanging One (Malachi 3:6).
the I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. when He made the universe, He did what pleased Him, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. "It was very good" (Genesis 1:31).


also, God did not create "peers" or beings equal to Himself. logically, He could not do so. if God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. "The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him" (Deuteronomy 4:35). anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. the thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.
recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and "crown him with glory and honor" (Psalm 8:5), and that He would condescend to call us "friends" (John 15:14-15).

The I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Him, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. "It was very good" (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create "peers" or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. "The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him" (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.

God speaks to me everyday. it's called prayer. look into it.
and maybe he never spoke to you because you were atually afraid to let him in. it's your choice. he doesn't force anything apon anyone.

So you mean you've always used the caps button, just to capitalize a letter? That's what the shift button's for.

Why on earth would God need to prove his glory. (haha note the period instead of the question mark ). Why would a perfect God need to fulfill his pleasures? Obviously, if he really was perfect, there would be no need for that. If he really did create us to fulfill his pleasures, then prior to him doing so, a piece of him was missing... so therefore he couldnt be perfect. And someone who's perfect would have no reason to please himself.

Well, then what the hell do you call Satan then? If he has the power to lure God's children from supposedly being in heaven with him, then why doesnt God stop that? If God was more powerful than him, then he could easily just snap his fingers, and do away with him... right? Well, Christians still run around claiming that the Devil tries to fight us... so God obviously hasnt done anything about him. So either (1) God could care less about what he's doing to his "children" or (2) God is incapable of doing anything about it, because he isnt powerful enough. Honestly, I think its neither, considering I dont believe in the Bible to begin with.

Oh really? So God talks back to you when you pray? What does he say?

Wtf, you're telling me to look into it? Omfg. You're kidding, right? Typically, when a person prays, they're telling God what's on their heart. I've never heard of God responding back. I've heard people say that God supposedly answers their prayers, by making something happen that they prayed for. That could be legitimate, or coincidence... which is what it probably is.

Who are you to judge? You dont know me. Oh believe me, I was more than ready to "let him in". I've been going to a Christian school for the past six years, so everyday I hear nothing but God and how Jesus loves me. Every single teacher starts class with prayer. I'm also stuck attending a chapel service twice a week. Like I said before... I was a Christian at one point, and actually honestly believed the crap that I was brainwashed into believing. So trust me, I was freaking WAITING for God to answer my prayers. I wasnt selfish like most Christians are.... I didnt pray that I'd get a good grade on a test, or that I would win a soccer game. I prayed for my mother, who then and still is having major health problems, for my grandmother who at the time was dying of cancer (she suffered at the very end, and has since passed), and for a bunch of other relatives who were in similar situations. Lets just say the things I constantly pleaded for never came true. I did everything the "perfect" Christian should do, but God still didnt answer my prayers. And you're trying to say that I've never given him the chance... HAH. How ignorant can you possibly be.

[Simba]

God still didnt answer my prayers.

You must've have been doing it wrong.

[misoshiru]

his post was directed toward me, and you were agreeing.
god can do anything. this is where you keep making a mistake. god isn't like humans. he is a spirit, not a human being.
God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. logically, He could not do so. if God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. the thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.
recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and “crown him with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5), and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15).
^^'twas taken from my post before, which you obviously didn't read.
and why would i "explain" evolution when i don't believe it?

I was talking about the f**king shift button.

If your proof comes only with the bible, and there isn't any proof to support the bible, how am I supposed to believe it? So, with all the evidence of evolution in the world, how do you explain that? What, did God decide to plant bones down in a random area?

[*Podomaht*]

I was talking about the f**king shift button.

If your proof comes only with the bible, and there isn't any proof to support the bible, how am I supposed to believe it? So, with all the evidence of evolution in the world, how do you explain that? What, did God decide to plant bones down in a random area?

WTF are you talking about proof to support to Bible?

So you mean you've always used the caps button, just to capitalize a letter? That's what the shift button's for.

Why on earth would God need to prove his glory. (haha note the period instead of the question mark ). Why would a perfect God need to fulfill his pleasures? Obviously, if he really was perfect, there would be no need for that. If he really did create us to fulfill his pleasures, then prior to him doing so, a piece of him was missing... so therefore he couldnt be perfect. And someone who's perfect would have no reason to please himself.

Well, then what the hell do you call Satan then? If he has the power to lure God's children from supposedly being in heaven with him, then why doesnt God stop that? If God was more powerful than him, then he could easily just snap his fingers, and do away with him... right? Well, Christians still run around claiming that the Devil tries to fight us... so God obviously hasnt done anything about him. So either (1) God could care less about what he's doing to his "children" or (2) God is incapable of doing anything about it, because he isnt powerful enough. Honestly, I think its neither, considering I dont believe in the Bible to begin with.

Oh really? So God talks back to you when you pray? What does he say?

Wtf, you're telling me to look into it? Omfg. You're kidding, right? Typically, when a person prays, they're telling God what's on their heart. I've never heard of God responding back. I've heard people say that God supposedly answers their prayers, by making something happen that they prayed for. That could be legitimate, or coincidence... which is what it probably is.

Who are you to judge? You dont know me. Oh believe me, I was more than ready to "let him in". I've been going to a Christian school for the past six years, so everyday I hear nothing but God and how Jesus loves me. Every single teacher starts class with prayer. I'm also stuck attending a chapel service twice a week. Like I said before... I was a Christian at one point, and actually honestly believed the crap that I was brainwashed into believing. So trust me, I was freaking WAITING for God to answer my prayers. I wasnt selfish like most Christians are.... I didnt pray that I'd get a good grade on a test, or that I would win a soccer game. I prayed for my mother, who then and still is having major health problems, for my grandmother who at the time was dying of cancer (she suffered at the very end, and has since passed), and for a bunch of other relatives who were in similar situations. Lets just say the things I constantly pleaded for never came true. I did everything the "perfect" Christian should do, but God still didnt answer my prayers. And you're trying to say that I've never given him the chance... HAH. How ignorant can you possibly be.

Your point is pretty much...pointless.

Christianity teaches that God lets Satan tempt us because, not that he doesn't care, nor that he simply isn't powerful enough. It's because if God wanted us to have the CHOICE. The choice to have surprise butt secks, and the CHOICE to believe in him. Otherwise, there would've been no point in having Adam and Eve sin.

The Garden of Eden was set to show how life could've been like if we hadn't f**ked up. It's to show how great life will be in Heaven, only better.

Also, God doesn't simply speak to you and go " DUMB BITCH, I HAVE ANSWERED THY PRAYERS. "

Incidents happen, cancer attacks, and AIDS inflicts. Just 'cause you pray about it doesn't mean God is going to heal everyone. Otherwise, noone would pray to God constantly. It'd be just simply whenever we need help. When people pass away, it's to make us stronger and to remind us that God can give and take. He can kill your mother or he could let her live. He's got the power.

Also. The " PERFECT " Christian wouldn't have given up when God seemed like he wasn't listening. He was. You just weren't listening.

Also, final thing. It sounds like you were too young to be actually a Christian. You yourself have to be able to accept Jesus into your heart. You were probably way too young anyways.

[kimmytree]

Your point is pretty much...pointless.

Christianity teaches that God lets Satan tempt us because, not that he doesn't care, nor that he simply isn't powerful enough. It's because if God wanted us to have the CHOICE. The choice to have surprise butt secks, and the CHOICE to believe in him. Otherwise, there would've been no point in having Adam and Eve sin.

The Garden of Eden was set to show how life could've been like if we hadn't f**ked up. It's to show how great life will be in Heaven, only better.

Also, God doesn't simply speak to you and go " DUMB BITCH, I HAVE ANSWERED THY PRAYERS. "

Incidents happen, cancer attacks, and AIDS inflicts. Just 'cause you pray about it doesn't mean God is going to heal everyone. Otherwise, noone would pray to God constantly. It'd be just simply whenever we need help. When people pass away, it's to make us stronger and to remind us that God can give and take. He can kill your mother or he could let her live. He's got the power.

Also. The " PERFECT " Christian wouldn't have given up when God seemed like he wasn't listening. He was. You just weren't listening.

Also, final thing. It sounds like you were too young to be actually a Christian. You yourself have to be able to accept Jesus into your heart. You were probably way too young anyways.

But Christians claim that God already knows what choices we are going to make in life. So wouldnt God know if a person is going to die and go to hell? If he's all knowing like he claims to be, then he'd have to know. And I dont think a kind and loving God would let his children burn in hell like that... he would make something occur in their life to make sure they were going to be with him.

Well obviously.

So is that your excuse for God not answering certain prayers?

Uh excuse me. I was 12 - 16 when I was a Christian. I think a sixteen year old is more than capable of accepting him. What a lame excuse.

[cori-catastrophe]

So you mean you've always used the caps button, just to capitalize a letter? That's what the shift button's for.

Why on earth would God need to prove his glory. (haha note the period instead of the question mark ). Why would a perfect God need to fulfill his pleasures? Obviously, if he really was perfect, there would be no need for that. If he really did create us to fulfill his pleasures, then prior to him doing so, a piece of him was missing... so therefore he couldnt be perfect. And someone who's perfect would have no reason to please himself.

Well, then what the hell do you call Satan then? If he has the power to lure God's children from supposedly being in heaven with him, then why doesnt God stop that? If God was more powerful than him, then he could easily just snap his fingers, and do away with him... right? Well, Christians still run around claiming that the Devil tries to fight us... so God obviously hasnt done anything about him. So either (1) God could care less about what he's doing to his "children" or (2) God is incapable of doing anything about it, because he isnt powerful enough. Honestly, I think its neither, considering I dont believe in the Bible to begin with.

Oh really? So God talks back to you when you pray? What does he say?

Wtf, you're telling me to look into it? Omfg. You're kidding, right? Typically, when a person prays, they're telling God what's on their heart. I've never heard of God responding back. I've heard people say that God supposedly answers their prayers, by making something happen that they prayed for. That could be legitimate, or coincidence... which is what it probably is.

Who are you to judge? You dont know me. Oh believe me, I was more than ready to "let him in". I've been going to a Christian school for the past six years, so everyday I hear nothing but God and how Jesus loves me. Every single teacher starts class with prayer. I'm also stuck attending a chapel service twice a week. Like I said before... I was a Christian at one point, and actually honestly believed the crap that I was brainwashed into believing. So trust me, I was freaking WAITING for God to answer my prayers. I wasnt selfish like most Christians are.... I didnt pray that I'd get a good grade on a test, or that I would win a soccer game. I prayed for my mother, who then and still is having major health problems, for my grandmother who at the time was dying of cancer (she suffered at the very end, and has since passed), and for a bunch of other relatives who were in similar situations. Lets just say the things I constantly pleaded for never came true. I did everything the "perfect" Christian should do, but God still didnt answer my prayers. And you're trying to say that I've never given him the chance... HAH. How ignorant can you possibly be.

yes, i have.
jesus wanted to spread his glory. he's not perfect, he's sinless.
again, god gives us free-will. it's us that screwed up, not him. bet yet, people like you go around blaming it on him for not making you mindless zombies. it's amazing to me.
if God's "children" cared anything about him, they would go against his will, like you are doing with your blaphemous comments.
actually, he does talk back to me. and why would i tell you what he says when it's personal to me. i'll tell you this though; he gives me strength.
i'm not judging you;you're juding me if anything.
it sounds to me like you are holding a grudge though. god doesn't answer prayers like that. he oculd make them live, but he doesn't because it's a test of strength.
he is giving you the power to decide.
and christians aren't selfish.
like podomaht said, if you were the
"perfect" christian, you wouldn't have turned against him. not to mention, there's not such thing as a "perfect" chistian in the first place.

I was talking about the f**king shift button.

If your proof comes only with the bible, and there isn't any proof to support the bible, how am I supposed to believe it? So, with all the evidence of evolution in the world, how do you explain that? What, did God decide to plant bones down in a random area?

where does your proof come from?
it's funny to me. you believe all the historical "edidence" you see around you, but you don't believe in god. he's around you. everywhere....all the time. there is historical evidence of him existing.

[cori-catastrophe]

So, only things from the New Testament should be noted while the rest of the Bible can be disregarded?

no, just in making decisions in the world now-a-days. there is a reason that jesus changed/updated it.

[Simba]

no, just in making decisions in the world now-a-days. there is a reason that jesus changed/updated it.

Because he had previously made an error?

[*Podomaht*]

But Christians claim that God already knows what choices we are going to make in life. So wouldnt God know if a person is going to die and go to hell? If he's all knowing like he claims to be, then he'd have to know. And I dont think a kind and loving God would let his children burn in hell like that... he would make something occur in their life to make sure they were going to be with him.

Well obviously.

So is that your excuse for God not answering certain prayers?

Uh excuse me. I was 12 - 16 when I was a Christian. I think a sixteen year old is more than capable of accepting him. What a lame excuse.

Dude, I just answered the 2nd question about unanswered prayers in my f**king response. It's called reading. You do that much or do you try to just skip that?

God knows everything. He is also two dimensional. One dimension is that he is a loving God. But he also is, a god who judges. Since God is perfect, he cannot be affiliated with those who sin, much less be in the presence of it. That is why Jesus came down to Earth.


Here's a theology lesson for you. Before Jesus came to Earth, ANYONE who believed in the LORD ( Yahweh ) went straight to hell. Why? Because God could not be in the presence of sin. They did go to hell, but they went into a place called " Abraham's Bosom. " ( Or Abram. Whichever. Same name. ) It was basically Heaven, without God's literal presence.

Now, when Jesus had died, he went straight to hell, to pay for the sins of OUR lives; and while doing so, he brought up all those who had patiently waited in Abraham's Bosom and brought them up to heaven as well.

And God does try to make things occur to change a non-believer's life. Like now. I'm debating with you and trying to explain the Bible is flawless. It just takes some time and removing all ignorance of the Bible to understand most of it.

Now, onto what you were saying about unanswered prayers.

God doesn't speak with Man anymore, not after circa Jesus' time, because the Bible was near completion. The Bible IS God's word. Now on prayers, God won't speak with you. He listen, and while he may not literally throw down lightning bolts saying "HERE IS THE CURE TO CANCER"

He speaks through feeling.


And I'm not going to argue about the last point, but 12-16 is still way too immature. I'm still young, ( Way older than you ) and I don't even know one^219382482309482340238402-13821983721983217391274916th of what God has in store for me.

Try patience.

[cori-catastrophe]

Because he had previously made an error?

no. because the laws changed over time. the old testament was suitable for it's time period.
for example, in the old testament, the sabath day was on saturday. it is no more.

[Simba]

Ok, just checking.

[cori-catastrophe]

Ok, just checking.

i just edited my post.

[kimmytree]

correct, but as far as the Bible goes, i'd say only scriptures in the new testament would be worth listing. in the old testament, everything was different.

So... you're saying that anything sexist in the Old Testament isnt worth listing? If you're going to ignore it, then I wont waste my time. But it's obviously there.

yes, i have.
jesus wanted to spread his glory. he's not perfect, he's sinless.
again, god gives us free-will. it's us that screwed up, not him. bet yet, people like you go around blaming it on him for not making you mindless zombies. it's amazing to me.
if God's "children" cared anything about him, they would go against his will, like you are doing with your blaphemous comments.
actually, he does talk back to me. and why would i tell you what he says when it's personal to me. i'll tell you this though; he gives me strength.
i'm not judging you;you're juding me if anything.
it sounds to me like you are holding a grudge though. god doesn't answer prayers like that. he oculd make them live, but he doesn't because it's a test of strength.
he is giving you the power to decide.
and christians aren't selfish.
like podomaht said, if you were the
"perfect" christian, you wouldn't have turned against him. not to mention, there's not such thing as a "perfect" chistian in the first place.

So since he's not perfect, then he's flawed in one way or another...? Wouldnt he have known that we would screw things up then? After all, he's supposedly all knowing.

I'm not trying to go against him at all. I believe in God. How many times do I have to repeat that? Okay... let me get this straight. Since I dont believe the exact way you do, I'm being blasphemous towards God? Ahhhh hahah. I could just as easily say that you're being blasphemous.

Oh really? I dont really care what he's been telling you, but how does he tell you? In what means does he communicate?

So God let my grandmother SUFFER for two freaking years, just to test me? Even before she got sick, I was a Christian. And I was even a Christian for two years after she died. I didnt blame God then. So how was I holding a grudge, especially back then? How the hell do you suggest someone pray then?

Uhhh, I'm aware of that. NO ONE is perfect. That's why I used the quotations around "perfect". I was living the way a Christian should live. Just because I later lost my faith, doesnt mean that I didnt have it at one point.

Dude, I just answered the 2nd question about unanswered prayers in my f**king response. It's called reading. You do that much or do you try to just skip that?

God knows everything. He is also two dimensional. One dimension is that he is a loving God. But he also is, a god who judges. Since God is perfect, he cannot be affiliated with those who sin, much less be in the presence of it. That is why Jesus came down to Earth.

Here's a theology lesson for you. Before Jesus came to Earth, ANYONE who believed in the LORD ( Yahweh ) went straight to hell. Why? Because God could not be in the presence of sin. They did go to hell, but they went into a place called " Abraham's Bosom. " ( Or Abram. Whichever. Same name. ) It was basically Heaven, without God's literal presence.

Now, when Jesus had died, he went straight to hell, to pay for the sins of OUR lives; and while doing so, he brought up all those who had patiently waited in Abraham's Bosom and brought them up to heaven as well.

And God does try to make things occur to change a non-believer's life. Like now. I'm debating with you and trying to explain the Bible is flawless. It just takes some time and removing all ignorance of the Bible to understand most of it.

Now, onto what you were saying about unanswered prayers.

God doesn't speak with Man anymore, not after circa Jesus' time, because the Bible was near completion. The Bible IS God's word. Now on prayers, God won't speak with you. He listen, and while he may not literally throw down lightning bolts saying "HERE IS THE CURE TO CANCER"

He speaks through feeling.


And I'm not going to argue about the last point, but 12-16 is still way too immature. I'm still young, ( Way older than you ) and I don't even know one^219382482309482340238402-13821983721983217391274916th of what God has in store for me.

Try patience.

Okay, so God knew we were going to sin in the first place, correct? Why the hell didnt he stop the serpent from tempting Adam and Eve? He easily could have. Or better yet, why the heck did he create the serpent?

Well, thanks for the lesson, but I was already aware of most of that. So in todays time, all those who dont believe in Jesus, are suposedly damned. So ninety something percent of the world is going to burn in a eternal hell? Thats sick if you actually believe that.

So God's lying when he says "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:8)??? He obviously is... considering he doesnt answer most prayers, even prayers made by his most faithful followers.

If what you say is correct, then Hazardous must be hearing things.

[cori-catastrophe]

So... you're saying that anything sexist in the Old Testament isnt worth listing? If you're going to ignore it, then I wont waste my time. But it's obviously there.

So since he's not perfect, then he's flawed in one way or another...? Wouldnt he have known that we would screw things up then? After all, he's supposedly all knowing.

I'm not trying to go against him at all. I believe in God. How many times do I have to repeat that? Okay... let me get this straight. Since I dont believe the exact way you do, I'm being blasphemous towards God? Ahhhh hahah. I could just as easily say that you're being blasphemous.

Oh really? I dont really care what he's been telling you, but how does he tell you? In what means does he communicate?

So God let my grandmother SUFFER for two freaking years, just to test me? Even before she got sick, I was a Christian. And I was even a Christian for two years after she died. I didnt blame God then. So how was I holding a grudge, especially back then? How the hell do you suggest someone pray then?

Uhhh, I'm aware of that. NO ONE is perfect. That's why I used the quotations around "perfect". I was living the way a Christian should live. Just because I later lost my faith, doesnt mean that I didnt have it at one point.


Okay, so God knew we were going to sin in the first place, correct? Why the hell didnt he stop the serpent from tempting Adam and Eve? He easily could have. Or better yet, why the heck did he create the serpent?

Well, thanks for the lesson, but I was already aware of most of that. So in todays time, all those who dont believe in Jesus, are suposedly damned. So ninety something percent of the world is going to burn in a eternal hell? Thats sick if you actually believe that.

So God's lying when he says "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:8)??? He obviously is... considering he doesnt answer most prayers, even prayers made by his most faithful followers.

If what you say is correct, then Hazardous must be hearing things.

of course he knew. what an ignorant question to ask.

Thus, we saw that God, in keeping with His perfect plan, placed a simple test before the man whom He had created. In the middle of the garden, God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then commanded the man, saying, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for [in the day that] you eat of it you will surely die." (Gen. 2:16)

Why did God test Adam in this way? God wanted to show the condition of Adam's heart. God did not test Adam to cause him to sin, but to bless and strengthen him. The man whom God created had no faults and was without sin, but that does not mean he possessed a perfect love or a mature character. God placed a test before Adam, to test his love. If Adam stood the test and obeyed God, he would prove that he loved God in his heart. Also, if Adam stood the test and refused to sin, that test would strengthen him, because the Scriptures say that "patience in times of trial produces character." (Rom. 5:4)

ta-da.
he comminicates through feelings. seriously. do you read at all or do you just to skip over the parts that you don't want to hear?
god answers all prayers with "no", "yes", or "wait".
he obviously answered yours as "no" for reasons that only he knows at the moment. you question his authority.

[misoshiru]

where does your proof come from?
it's funny to me. you believe all the historical "edidence" you see around you, but you don't believe in god. he's around you. everywhere....all the time. there is historical evidence of him existing.

It's spelled evidence.
What evidence? Hello, evolution? And how do you prove that the Buddha is not the real god, or Mohammed? And so you really believe that Methusaleh or however his name is spelled lived for 900 or so years?

[Simba]

And how do you prove that the Buddha is not the real god, or Mohammed? And so you really believe that Methusaleh or however his name is spelled lived for 900 or so years?

And Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, and The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[misoshiru]

^ Don't forget the easter bunny!

[cori-catastrophe]

It's spelled evidence.
What evidence? Hello, evolution? And how do you prove that the Buddha is not the real god, or Mohammed? And so you really believe that Methusaleh or however his name is spelled lived for 900 or so years?

oh. i see. we're into pointing out typos. how fun to waste our time on because we have no real life.
maybe it's just me, but i don't find the statement "Hello, evolution?" to be very much proof of anything at all.
read archie's other topic. they might all be related.
it's spelled Methuselah and yes, i do because Genesis 5:27 states, "And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died".
the bible said it, and i believe everything in the bible.

[*Podomaht*]

It's spelled evidence.
What evidence? Hello, evolution? And how do you prove that the Buddha is not the real god, or Mohammed? And so you really believe that Methusaleh or however his name is spelled lived for 900 or so years?

A while ago the human race was GENETICALLY PURE. Most scientists agree with this anyways. When you're genetically pure, you're likely to live longer and become stronger.

So... you're saying that anything sexist in the Old Testament isnt worth listing? If you're going to ignore it, then I wont waste my time. But it's obviously there.

So since he's not perfect, then he's flawed in one way or another...? Wouldnt he have known that we would screw things up then? After all, he's supposedly all knowing.

I'm not trying to go against him at all. I believe in God. How many times do I have to repeat that? Okay... let me get this straight. Since I dont believe the exact way you do, I'm being blasphemous towards God? Ahhhh hahah. I could just as easily say that you're being blasphemous.

Oh really? I dont really care what he's been telling you, but how does he tell you? In what means does he communicate?

So God let my grandmother SUFFER for two freaking years, just to test me? Even before she got sick, I was a Christian. And I was even a Christian for two years after she died. I didnt blame God then. So how was I holding a grudge, especially back then? How the hell do you suggest someone pray then?

Uhhh, I'm aware of that. NO ONE is perfect. That's why I used the quotations around "perfect". I was living the way a Christian should live. Just because I later lost my faith, doesnt mean that I didnt have it at one point.


Okay, so God knew we were going to sin in the first place, correct? Why the hell didnt he stop the serpent from tempting Adam and Eve? He easily could have. Or better yet, why the heck did he create the serpent?

Well, thanks for the lesson, but I was already aware of most of that. So in todays time, all those who dont believe in Jesus, are suposedly damned. So ninety something percent of the world is going to burn in a eternal hell? Thats sick if you actually believe that.

So God's lying when he says "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:8)??? He obviously is... considering he doesnt answer most prayers, even prayers made by his most faithful followers.

If what you say is correct, then Hazardous must be hearing things.

Dude, you aren't reading what I'm typing. I just said, like in my post earlier; that God gives us the freedom to sin or not. That's why he let everything happen.

I HOPE YOU READ THE BOLD PART.

And...are you kidding me? 90% of the world believes in aethiesm or some other religion?

You do realize that a 1/4th or so of the world believes in God or some form of Christianity. Meaning...it's not 1/10 of the world's population. God's plan is in action, and everyone knows about Jesus Christ and his love for the world. Likewise, again; in my last post. Read.

GOD WILL NOT CURE CANCER JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD. Then EVERYONE will pray for a cure for their mother's weak heart...their dad's new job, and hell. How about that new Nintendo Wii?

Tough crap happens so we are allowed to build character. Actually read and take into consideration in what I say.

[kimmytree]

Dude, you aren't reading what I'm typing. I just said, like in my post earlier; that God gives us the freedom to sin or not. That's why he let everything happen.

I HOPE YOU READ THE BOLD PART.

And...are you kidding me? 90% of the world believes in aethiesm or some other religion?

You do realize that a 1/4th or so of the world believes in God or some form of Christianity. Meaning...it's not 1/10 of the world's population. God's plan is in action, and everyone knows about Jesus Christ and his love for the world. Likewise, again; in my last post. Read.

GOD WILL NOT CURE CANCER JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD. Then EVERYONE will pray for a cure for their mother's weak heart...their dad's new job, and hell. How about that new Nintendo Wii?

Tough crap happens so we are allowed to build character. Actually read and take into consideration in what I say.

Yeah, I AM reading what you're typing.

And Yeah, you're right, 1/4 of the world probably believes in God, but I highly doubt 1/4 believes in Jesus. Afterall, you supposedly have to be a Christian to avoid hell.

When I said 90%, I meant that at least 90% doesnt believe in Jesus. Even those who believe in God would still go into the damned category, according to what you seem to believe.

I wasnt asking for a cure to cancer; I was asking for the type of chemo my grandmother was using to actually work. She ended up trying over a dozen different variations of it... I just prayed that one of them would work. Hell, I wasnt the only one praying for her. She constantly prayed for herself... so was God testing her too? Pfffft. She was the most religious, faithful Christian I've ever met. So she obviously had a strong relationship with God, but her prayers were still left unanswered.

I could really care less what your views on prayer are. Your opinions arent automatically truth. This thread isnt about converting me or anyone else.

Dang. Seriously, how old are you.... 13? 14?

It sure seems like it after reading some of your other "mature" posts elsewhere.

[Mulder]

When I said 90%, I meant that at least 90% doesnt believe in Jesus. Even those who believe in God would still go into the damned category, according to what you seem to believe

err... you're wrong. sorry. Most of the world's population is christian. Jesus-worshipping christians. If they didn't, they'd just be jews

GOD WILL NOT CURE CANCER JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOD. Then EVERYONE will pray for a cure for their mother's weak heart...their dad's new job, and hell. How about that new Nintendo Wii?

so why pray, when you know its futile?

I hope you realize the weaknesses in your arguments.

[misoshiru]

oh yes. because humans can for over 900 years.

[*Podomaht*]

Wow. Just. Wow. No one here has actually read and understood.