The Problem of Evil, Another Theological Problem Options

[Simba]

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.

1. God exists. (premise)
2. God is omnipotent. (premise - or true by definition of the word 'God')
3. God is all-benevolent. (premise - or true by definition)
4. All-benevolent beings are opposed to all evil. (premise - or true by definition)
5. All-benevolent beings who can eliminate evil will do so immediately when they become aware of it. (premise)
6. God is opposed to all evil. (conclusion from 3 and 4)
7. God can eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 2)

1. Whatever the end result of suffering is, God can bring it about by ways which do not include suffering. (conclusion from 2)
2. God has no reason not to eliminate evil. (conclusion from 7.1)
3. God has no reason not to act immediately. (conclusion from 5)

8. God will eliminate evil completely and immediately. (conclusion from 6, 7.2 and 7.3)
9. Evil exists, has existed, and probably will always exist. (premise)
10. Items 8 and 9 are contradictory; therefore, one or more of the premises is false: either God does not exist, or he is not both omnipotent and all-benevolent or there is a reason why He does not act immediately.

On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.

1. Free will requires the potential to so anything one chooses. (premise, or by definition)
2. Thus, free will requires the potential to do evil.
3. Thus, removing the potential to do evil would remove free will.

Discuss.

[sweetangel2128]

Funny. I was actually having this discussion with my boyfriend today on the Yin Yang theory. They believe that Yin & Yang are the balance of Good & Evil and my boyfriend came to the conclusion that without one or the other, the world would be chaotic.

I believe in God and yes he does exist but just because he's all powerful doesn't imply that there can't be Evil. There can be because of the Devil...evil is created by the Devil not God. And since he gives all free will, if he stopped things from happening, it would no longer be free will.

[Simba]

Funny. I was actually having this discussion with my boyfriend today on the Yin Yang theory. They believe that Yin & Yang are the balance of Good & Evil and my boyfriend came to the conclusion that without one or the other, the world would be chaotic.

Well, what do you personally think about the Yin & Yang theory?

I believe in God and yes he does exist but just because he's all powerful doesn't imply that there can't be Evil.

Right-o, but it's not his all powerful-ness that implies that there can't be evil, it's his omni-benevolence that implies that there can't be evil.

There can be because of the Devil...evil is created by the Devil not God. And since he gives all free will, if he stopped things from happening, it would no longer be free will.

The "Devil" is practically irrelevant here. If the "Devil" was affecting God's creations in a way that God does not approve, He should easily be able to rid of the Devil (due to his omnipotence).

However, there can still be free will without the "Devil".

[sweetangel2128]

Well, what do you personally think about the Yin & Yang theory?Right-o, but it's not his all powerful-ness that implies that there can't be evil, it's his omni-benevolence that implies that there can't be evil.The "Devil" is practically irrelevant here. If the "Devil" was affecting God's creations in a way that God does not approve, He should easily be able to rid of the Devil (due to his omnipotence).

However, there can still be free will without the "Devil".

Personally, I really don't know much about the Yin & Yang theory until I studied it today. It is basically believed as I said to be the balance between good and evil. Other then that I can't really say.

Explain to me what omni-benevolence is?

No, because if God were to rid of the Devil no one would have a choice in following God or the Devil because he wouldn't exist therefore free will wouldn't really exist, we'd all be taught to follow God but if the Devil was destroyed there would be no evil in our world because it's the devil who created evil in the first place so if he didn't exist, everything would be good and like I said before everyone would follow God but since he gave us free will, we can choose evil over good if we wanted to.

How come no one else is responding to this? LOL.

[NoSex]

How come no one else is responding to this? LOL.

Because everyone knew that you would ruin our fun.
Read a book.

[sweetangel2128]

Because everyone knew that you would ruin our fun.
Read a book.

Learn some respect

[Kontroll]

Because everyone knew that you would ruin our fun.
Read a book.

HAHAHAHAHA. That's what I told her.

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.
On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.
Discuss.

Well, I think it would be wise to give Augustine a little credit. He was a philosopher and theologian. Was he not? No, seriously. I could be wrong. I don't know much about him.

Evil: In religion and ethics, evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. Evil is sometimes defined as the absence of a good which could and should be present; the absence of which is a void in what should be.

Firstly, God exists out of time. He dwells in eternity. What is eternity? Anything not bound by time and space, really. So, we have a time line for example. Eternity can't be measure, but for the sake of our own sanity, I'll just put a timeline.

|ETERNITY--------------------------------------|TIME-AND-SPACE|-ETERNITY--------------|

When God is confronted with evil in the Bible, it cannot be present for long. The devil is evil, because he is prideful. He was the most beautiful angel in Heaven, and he thought he was as good as God. What does this tell us. Angels at least had free will. So, the presence of free will determines that evil must be present also.

[sweetangel2128]

HAHAHAHAHA. That's what I told her.

I read them all the time. You know I wasn't going to mention this before but now I think it's okay to say this because I believe this has gone far enough. All I've gotten from you is disrespect. You sit there and call yourself a Christian, you say you believe in the Bible yet you disrespect me and my friend. How can you call yourself a Christian, follow the Bible and think it's okay to disrespect another human being. Jesus asked us to love our neighbor which you are going against.

So learn some respect, read the Bible again and learn what it says and follow it's laws and what it says, don't claim you do and pretend to follow it and then don't...that is what you call a hypocrit.

[Kontroll]

I read them all the time. You know I wasn't going to mention this before but now I think it's okay to say this because I believe this has gone far enough. All I've gotten from you is disrespect. You sit there and call yourself a Christian, you say you believe in the Bible yet you disrespect me and my friend. How can you call yourself a Christian, follow the Bible and think it's okay to disrespect another human being. Jesus asked us to love our neighbor which you are going against.

So learn some respect, read the Bible again and learn what it says and follow it's laws and what it says, don't claim you do and pretend to follow it and then don't...that is what you call a hypocrit.

Hey, right now I don't even know if I do follow the Bible. I'm going off what I've been taught.

The Bible isn't real enough for me. Why should it be, it's a book. I've never seen God, never heard His voice, never had any shred of evidence come from His way, and I got people telling me they believe Creation and Evolution which only makes me think...Wow, what a corrupt religion. Look how the liberal media has gotten inside the church and in about fifty years will be eradicated from our nation.

So, you know what? What you say about disrespect means nothing to me. It would really mean nothing to me whoever said it, besides my few close friends and family.

I really have to respect no body except my elders. And when I say that I don't mean those who are a month, a year or two older than me. They have nothing more to share than I do. So, really, quit it with your disrespect bullshit, please.

[sweetangel2128]

I really have to respect no body except my elders. And when I say that I don't mean those who are a month, a year or two older than me. They have nothing more to share than I do. So, really, quit it with your disrespect bullshit, please.

Your in my prayers. Truly you are.

Ps: btw..being that you were born in 1988 by your profile info and I was born in 1982, I would say I'm a lot more than just 2 years old than you hun

[kimmytree]

^ I thought you were only in your early twenties?

I've probably already said this, but age doesnt necessarily bring wisdom. According to your other posts in a different thread, you've mentioned that you've never taken a Chemistry or Biology class. Assuming that he has, wouldnt that mean he has more experience / knowledge in the area? That doesnt mean that he's automatically any more intelligent, you probably have equal experience in other areas. Eeek just a thought.

[sweetangel2128]

^ I thought you were only in your early twenties?

I've probably already said this, but age doesnt necessarily bring wisdom. According to your other posts in a different thread, you've mentioned that you've never taken a Chemistry or Biology class. Assuming that he has, wouldnt that mean he has more experience / knowledge in the area? That doesnt mean that he's automatically any more intelligent, you probably have equal experience in other areas. Eeek just a thought.

No, I'm 24 turning 25 in September

As for biology or chemistry, like I stated before I never had the option to take it like other people have. And you can't base on what someone has taken in school as how experienced they are..just like your age factor.

[Simba]

Explain to me what omni-benevolence is?

Omni-benevolence is the property of being absolutely, and perfectly good.

Evil: In religion and ethics, evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. Evil is sometimes defined as the absence of a good which could and should be present; the absence of which is a void in what should be.

So, I guess "good" and "evil" will have to be defined here.

Well, I think it would be wise to give Augustine a little credit. He was a philosopher and theologian. Was he not? No, seriously. I could be wrong. I don't know much about him.

Yeah, Augustine was a philosopher and theologian, and mostly known as a saint.

Firstly, God exists out of time. He dwells in eternity. What is eternity? Anything not bound by time and space, really. So, we have a time line for example. Eternity can't be measure, but for the sake of our own sanity, I'll just put a timeline.

|ETERNITY--------------------------------------|TIME-AND-SPACE|-ETERNITY--------------|

When God is confronted with evil in the Bible, it cannot be present for long. The devil is evil, because he is prideful. He was the most beautiful angel in Heaven, and he thought he was as good as God. What does this tell us. Angels at least had free will. So, the presence of free will determines that evil must be present also.

No, because if God were to rid of the Devil no one would have a choice in following God or the Devil because he wouldn't exist therefore free will wouldn't really exist, we'd all be taught to follow God but if the Devil was destroyed there would be no evil in our world because it's the devil who created evil in the first place so if he didn't exist, everything would be good and like I said before everyone would follow God but since he gave us free will, we can choose evil over good if we wanted to.

So, I suppose you're saying God's choice of giving us free will would be the reason He does not act immediately in ridding evil? (Which would answer the logical problem of evil.)

[sweetangel2128]

So, I suppose you're saying God's choice of giving us free will would be the reason He does not act immediately in ridding evil? (Which would answer the logical problem of evil.)

Well, that's what I guess. I mean it makes total sense because afterall he is powerful and can do anything with snap of his fingers but he chooses not to. But like I said if the Devil didn't exist, evil wouldn't exist because the Devil is what created Evil from the beginning.

[Simba]

Well, that's what I guess. I mean it makes total sense because afterall he is powerful and can do anything with snap of his fingers but he chooses not to. But like I said if the Devil didn't exist, evil wouldn't exist because the Devil is what created Evil from the beginning.

There doesn't need to be a Devil in order for there to be evil. Evil (here, I'll go with the definition most regarded to by humans, which could be translated to suffering) pretty much comes with the free will bundle.

By the "Devil" I assume you would follow the story that Jake described, saying that the Devil was prideful and such?

[NoSex]

^ I thought you were only in your early twenties?

Jesus!

I thought she was ten!

[sweetangel2128]

There doesn't need to be a Devil in order for there to be evil. Evil (here, I'll go with the definition most regarded to by humans, which could be translated to suffering) pretty much comes with the free will bundle.

By the "Devil" I assume you would follow the story that Jake described, saying that the Devil was prideful and such?

I follow the story of the Bible and what it says about the Devil. The serpent tricked Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so by eating that she brought sin into our world but the Devil was the one who created evil like I said in the first place. If the Devil hadn't of existed they wouldn't of eaten from the tree, sin wouldn't exist and neither would evil.

[Simba]

I follow the story of the Bible and what it says about the Devil. The serpent tricked Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so by eating that she brought sin into our world but the Devil was the one who created evil like I said in the first place. If the Devil hadn't of existed they wouldn't of eaten from the tree, sin wouldn't exist and neither would evil.

You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not believe that...

The devil is evil, because he is prideful. He was the most beautiful angel in Heaven, and he thought he was as good as God. What does this tell us. Angels at least had free will. So, the presence of free will determines that evil must be present also.

What I'm trying to get at is that if you follow that the Devil was once the beautiful angel in Heaven and became prideful and thought of himself equivalent to God (showing that angels at least had free will), then "evil" would have originated from free will, not from the Devil.

[sweetangel2128]

You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not believe that...
What I'm trying to get at is that if you follow that the Devil was once the beautiful angel in Heaven and became prideful and thought of himself equivalent to God (showing that angels at least had free will), then "evil" would have originated from free will, not from the Devil.

Oh okay I get what your saying now but I honestly do not know how to answer that since I always believed it's the Devil that caused evil. Yes, he was a beautiful angel, he wanted God's power and tried to throw God off his own throne but was banished from Heaven and since that happend he's been the cause of evil. So in a sense yes we had free will but evil wasn't created until lucifer was casted out of Heaven.

Ps: other angels were banished also not just the devil but the devil is the one that is talked about the most because he's the one that thought he was higher than God and tried to take over.

[Simba]

Oh okay I get what your saying now but I honestly do not know how to answer that since I always believed it's the Devil that caused evil. Yes, he was a beautiful angel, he wanted God's power and tried to throw God off his own throne but was banished from Heaven and since that happend he's been the cause of evil.

Well. I guess it could go like this.

In a possible Christian view, the Devil didn't necessarily create "evil," but rather, brought it into God's created world.
In a possible non-Christian, but still theistic view, the "Devil" is strictly be symbolic.

My main point, however, is that "evil" (in a human's view, suffering) is not contingent on the "Devil's" existence.

[*Uronacid*]

Alright, I'm going to tell you what I think (keep in mind, I have skimmed over the current posts... I just want to say whatever I'm saying in my own words.):

The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.
On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.

Discuss.

Alright, this may be difficult to wrap your mind around.

Here's how I see it. First of all, you have to understand the concept of Love. Love is making the best choice, and the only way you can make the best choice in every situation every single time is if you have "infinite wisdom". Pure Love requires the best choices and is something that only God can do because He is the only Being ever to be able to make the best decision in every situation every single time.

The best decision is the perfect decision. Perfection is relative, and cannot be defined. The only Being who knows true perfection is God Himself, and the only reason He knows true perfection is because He is infinitely wise. You cannot make the "best" choices if the worst choices do not exist, and the only different between the perfect choice (if you know what it is) and the alternative is the worst choice. Meaning, any other alternative is just as bad as the worst choice if the best known alternative is purposely avoided even though it is the known best choice because the worst choice is also relative. The Greek philosopher Plato argued, "evil is merely ignorance." I agree, any decision aside from the best decision is a decision tainted by evil (A.K.A: "the ignorance of the best decision".)

Rick Bobby - Talladega Knights: "If you're not first, you're last."

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

For God to have the ability to love, He has to have the ability to do all things or in other words make all choices (including sin). Without the ability to sin He wouldn't need infinite wisdom, because without evil, imperfections wouldn't exist. The perfect choice wouldn't need infinite wisdom. If evil didn't exist then perfect choices would simply happen. It's not that God cannot sin, He just chooses not to and never will.

Interesting Observation: If you believe in God then, if God didn't have the ability to do something then it would not exist because he has the ability to accomplish all things (including contradictions).

When God placed the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" into the word He gave us the ability to love. When He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, He gave them the ability to make a choice. He gave them the ability to choose Love by obeying him (the best choice) or choose evil by taking the fruit of the tree (the alternative).

Eve chose to take the fruit out because she was selfish.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)

Often times, people tend to think that the tree had magical properties that unlocked "wisdom". I personally don't think so. Before Adam and Eve had even seen the tree, Lucifer had already fallen from heaven. Beings were already making evil choices. The tree was more of a lesson than a magic turning point in humanity.

I don't think that the tree gave them wisdom. Wisdom already existed. The tree taught them that they had the ability to make choices. It taught them to use applied knowledge to the decisions they make in their lives. The tree was a tool that indirectly gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of wisdom existing.

Giving us the ability to Love without infinite wisdom makes us imperfect or evil by nature. Because we don't have infinite wisdom, we learn from our surroundings. We learn to make decisions based upon the effect they will have on our lives. We make decisions based upon opportunity costs. To many, "perfect" decisions would effect our lives in the most positive way possible. In reality, perfect decisions effect eternity in the best way possible. The best decisions end up being self-less because we don't know all things. Perhaps this is why:

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends" - John 15.13

This is not to say that laying down ones life for one's friend is a perfect decision, but that it is the greatest love humans are capable of showing due to the fact that we do not know all things. God is the only one who can truly love, for He is Love. We can only do our best.

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." - John 4:8

I have so much more I want to say. Please, don't reply to this quite yet... I haven't said it all yet...

[sweetangel2128]

Well. I guess it could go like this.

In a possible Christian view, the Devil didn't necessarily create "evil," but rather, brought it into God's created world.
In a possible non-Christian, but still theistic view, the "Devil" is strictly be symbolic.

My main point, however, is that "evil" (in a human's view, suffering) is not contingent on the "Devil's" existence.

Well, evil was created before Adam and Eve sinned so if the Devil didn't cause the Evil then who or what did? God didn't create Evil, you got to remember that.

I really don't believe the Devil is symbolic, my friend has seen out of this world happen in front of her eyes. I could give you examples if you want. So, I think the Devil is more than just a symbol.

As for suffering, sometimes things just happen, I believe everything happends for a reason and it's human nature, it's part of human life. I am not saying that every little bad thing in life is a test by God or even Devil-related but a lot of it is tests from God or Devil-related.

[Simba]

Well, evil was created before Adam and Eve sinned so if the Devil didn't cause the Evil then who or what did? God didn't create Evil, you got to remember that.

As stated previously, evil comes with free will. (Id est, without "evil", there would be no such thing as free will, as the argument goes.)

I really don't believe the Devil is symbolic, my friend has seen out of this world happen in front of her eyes. I could give you examples if you want. So, I think the Devil is more than just a symbol.

You mean the supernatural happen in front of her eyes? Sure, examples are always nice.

As for suffering, sometimes things just happen, I believe everything happends for a reason and it's human nature, it's part of human life. I am not saying that every little bad thing in life is a test by God or even Devil-related but a lot of it is tests from God or Devil-related.

I'll give my two cents on suffering a little later.

I have so much more I want to say. Please, don't reply to this quite yet... I haven't said it all yet...

Yessir. I'm personally interested in what else you have to say.

[sweetangel2128]

You mean the supernatural happen in front of her eyes? Sure, examples are always nice.

Sorta. The first one was seen by some of her friends supposedly at the same time. They were outside talking when a garbage can lid was spinning by itself on top of a garbage can with nothing holding it up or nothing even around it to cause it..this was outside of her home.

Second. She was home alone one night with her cats in her dark living room when she felt something really scary come over her (you know the feeling when you feel like someone is watching you or that something bad is going to hapen? that feeling)...her cats began looking up at the ceiling hissing..the very next day she had her pastor come over with holy water and sprinkle it on the house, it never happend again.

Third. 2 young guys who were friends with her and her husband came to her church, the pastor believed them to be possessed by demons...when they were prayed for and had holy water sprinkled on them they hissed and yelled but afterwards became calm and it never happend again.

Those are just three, there are other things but I can't remember them right now. And since the Bible says theres no inbetween, you either go to Heaven or Hell, ghosts don't exist, but the devil and his demons do.

[Kontroll]

You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not believe that...
What I'm trying to get at is that if you follow that the Devil was once the beautiful angel in Heaven and became prideful and thought of himself equivalent to God (showing that angels at least had free will), then "evil" would have originated from free will, not from the Devil.

True.

[Simba]

True.

Which (indirectly?) means that "evil" originates with God?

[Kontroll]

Possibly. It's a hard question to answer, because I don't think logic alone can prove the supernatural.

Haha, I love these questions but everyone always decides to make topics that can never be answered.

I think it all has to do with free will. That's my conclusion. Without it there would be no evil.

[sweetangel2128]

Haha, I love these questions but everyone always decides to make topics that can never be answered.

That's because most of the time there dealing with God and God can't be explained or understood on a normal thinking level. But it does make the debates more interesting.

[Simba]

Eh. Well, I still have a possible explanation that no one else has said yet, and I'm interested in what else Josh has to say.

[sweetangel2128]

Eh. Well, I still have a possible explanation that no one else has said yet, and I'm interested in what else Josh has to say.

What is your possible explanation? I'd like to hear it

[Simba]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.


I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

[Mr. Slowjamz]

^ o boy i think you got everything right Arjuna . yet i feel in this case that this sort of feeling coincides with the "discipline atitude" and the responsibility atitude.

[*Uronacid*]

Well, alright. To start off with, I'd like to note that my explanation is backed up not by the Bible, but by the Bhagavad-Gita. I, specifically, refer to Bhagavad Gita As It Is, written by A. C. Bhaktivedata Swami Prabhupada who is uniquely, and completely qualified to present the Bhagavad-Gita without adulteration (hence, "As It Is").

Now first, in order to understand this explanation, one must accept the realities of the Supreme Being, material nature, eternity, karma and reincarnation, and that you are not the body, but the eternal spirit. Many unenlightened peoples identify the self as the material body, and that their function is to be the enjoyer, and that the purpose of life is to find enjoyment in the material world. In reality, a person's natural function is to unconditionally love and serve God.

With the idea of being the enjoyer, people become really frustrated when reality hits them with death, disease, etcetera, and suffering becomes "evil." In human perspective, "evil" is suffering and suffering is "evil."

The material world has been created for spirits who are envious of the Lord. The material world is created as a place of pleasure, as well as suffering. The reasoning behind this is to allow the individual spirits the freedom to pursue their desire to be the enjoyer, and at the same time, teach the spirits that the role of enjoyer does not lead to absolute happiness and satisfaction.

God let's us pursue the role of enjoyer, but out of His grace, He has also placed "reminders" that real happiness and satisfaction and our real homes are not in this material world, but elsewhere. To humans, these "reminders" are known as suffering, including birth, death, aging, disease, etcetera. So really, suffering shouldn't be thought of as "evil," but rather be thought of rather positively.

Often, an intelligent person who is continually being punched in the face wants to go out and seek why it is that he is constantly being punched in the face in order to stop being punched in the face. People in this world are continually suffering, and some never go out and find out why. The intelligent person would want to go out and find out why he continues to suffer.

In order to stop suffering, one must get off the cycle of birth and death which is known as reincarnation. Reincarnation is not perpetual (a misunderstanding often made); one gets off of the cycle of reincarnation by achieving God consciousness (which may not be as easy as it may sound at the moment).

Ultimately, suffering shouldn't be seen as "evil," as it is natural in this material world. What's unnatural the spirit's being here in this material world.
I'm assuming there's going to be questions (since these concepts are not commonly known in the western world) and rebuttals against that whole explanation; go ahead, I'll reply. Oh yeah, and I guess I better establish this now that I do not follow and formal, organized religion. (This would include Hindu.)

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

P.S. I'm sorry I haven't replied... I'm still thinking. Thoughts as complicated as the one I was having are really hard to organize. I will reply and include the first reply in my second reply so that people aren't confused.

[Simba]

I really like what you have said here, "Suffering is not evil. It's a reminder of the role that will lead to true happiness."

One thing I'm confused about is your reference to "reincarnation". I guess I'm used to seeing the word when people refer to other religions. I think your referring to the spiritual rebirth associated with being "born again". I guess I'm not sure... >.<

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

[*Uronacid*]

Right, I should have probably been more informative on the part about reincarnation since I guess not too many people around here know too much about it.

When most people hear reincarnation, they usually think of a never ending process of birth and rebirth, which is in fact not the whole story. One is only on the "wheel" of reincarnation, so to speak, while he lives a materialistic life, whether it be positively or negatively (good or bad karma). As long as one lives a materialistic life, he will always reincarnate. One gets off the wheel of reincarnation by becoming God conscious and participating in purified actions, becoming unattached to material.

What reincarnation (and karma) have to do with solving the problem of evil is that it gives logic in the suffering, rather than, when thinking without the concept of reincarnation and karma where suffering appears to be completely random. It gives reason to why people are born where they were and by what conditions. It gives reason to why someone was born in an oppressed society, born with a birth defect, or born in the body of a dog. Id est, because of the actions (karma) a being had done in their previous bodies.

We continue to go through this process of birth, death, and rebirth (suffering), because of our materialistic desires, and until we figure out that absolute satisfaction cannot be attained in this material world, we will continue to reincarnate. And once we are enlightened of the Truths, our purpose, and let go of material desire, only then will we stop reincarnating.

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

[sweetangel2128]

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

The word "incarnation" isn't in the Bible but heres what I found:

http://www.christsincarnation.org/

[Simba]

Are you a Christian? I'm not being arrogant... I'm just confused. I have never seen reincarnation in the Bible, and I would like you to point it out to me...

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

[sweetangel2128]

No, I am not a Christian, nor do I follow any other organized religion.

My knowledge of reincarnation doesn't really come from the Bible (as, evidentaly, reincarnation isn't very significant in the Bible), though, reincarnation in the Bible has been discussed in the Transmigration topic. The solution I provided for the problem of evil is backed up by the Bhagavad-Gita.

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

[Simba]

Yeah true, the word itself isn't in the Bible but the idea is. Obviously since Jesus was God in the flesh Jesus would be the incarnation of God. At least that's what we would have to assume.

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

[sweetangel2128]

Well... God's incarnating into Jesus is almost irrelevant when talking about reincarnation.

Reincarnation =/= incarnation. God incarnating is not the same thing as when we go through death and are born again in a new body. God incarnates at will; we have to incarnate (as long as material desire exists).

True however, if that's the case then incarnation wouldn't exist in Biblical terms however if you think about it Jesus was born young, he was the incarnation of God but after he died he rose from his grave so wouldn't that sorta be like re-incarnation? or no?

Ps: sorry I keep puting incarnation...I meant re-incarnation lol.

[Simba]

True however, if that's the case then incarnation wouldn't exist in Biblical terms however if you think about it Jesus was born young, he was the incarnation of God but after he died he rose from his grave so wouldn't that sorta be like re-incarnation? or no?

Other references to reincarnation have been noted in the Bible, though the case of Jesus being God's incarnation is usually not one of them.

Because this was Jesus raising from his grave and using the same body, the more correct term for this would probably be "resurrection." Reincarnation, or transmigration, is the spirit transferring from one body to another.

[sweetangel2128]

Other references to reincarnation have been noted in the Bible

Where's the scriptures? Cause I've never heard of that before.

[Simba]

Where's the scriptures? Cause I've never heard of that before.

I have noted verses most commonly referred to when arguing for (and against) reincarnation in the Bible in the Transmigration thread.

[sweetangel2128]

I have noted verses most commonly referred to when arguing for (and against) reincarnation in the Bible in the Transmigration thread.

I just read part of the article, sorry I am trying to hurry cause dinners almost ready anyways I read part of the article and it doesn't say that reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible but that it is quite the opposite. Heres the verses that proves that:

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27). <---no reincarnation.

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8) <---no reincarnation.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) <---no reincarnation.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46) <---no reincarnation.

When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up. He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10) <---no reincarnation.

Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21) <---no reincarnation.

But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12) <---no reincarnation.

A verse that kinda makes people think reincarnation is possible is this verse:

'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. (Job 33:28-30)

But the thing is, that is the only one I've found pointing towards reincarnation, every other verse I've posted says reincarnation doesn't happen because you are ONLY given one chance. I think there is other meanings to this other scripture, I'll have to ask my friend Jess to ask her pastor about it, maybe he can explain it to me. I'm actually attending a Bible study tomorrow night so I might bring it up then.

Note: I looked up that verse in Job that sounds like reincarnation in the New Living Translation version, heres what it says:

Job 33:28-33.
God rescued me from the grave, and now my life is filled with light. Yes, God often does these things for people. He rescues them from the grave so they may live in the light of living. Mark this well, Job, Listen to me, and let me say more. But if you have anything to say, go ahead. I want to hear it, for I am anxious to see you justified. But if not, then listen to me. Keep silent and I will teach you wisdom.

Basically, what I get out of this verse is that God sometimes pulls us away from the pit/hell/the storm. So, if you are on the verge of death lets say a car accident happend and you almost die. God rescues from that pit that grave to give you another chance to live again but to live a better life with him in it. This is not reincarnation but just God pulling you out of the storm and giving you another chance but in the same body you were born into.

[Simba]

^

Ultimately, however, it is clear that the authors of the Bible had no real intentions of teaching about reincarnation. Nor do we even know for sure that the Bible is inerrant, or even complete. Because wasn't it that during the compilation of the Bible, the people chose what to include and what not to include? And what about those many years of Christ that were left out of the Bible. (Yeah, I have read that verse where it says that that would make the Bible extremely long.)

It could have been that people just picked and chose what they wanted to be taught from the Bible. Though, reincarnation actually was indeed taught in Christianity by Origen, known as one of the Fathers of the early Christian church. Though, I heard that Origen was then cursed by the church and no one was ever to read his books "or else they would go to hell."

I understand that there are also Bible verses against reincarnation in the Bible.

The thing is, though, that I never really used the Bible when answering the problem of evil.

[*Uronacid*]

^
I understand that there are also Bible verses against reincarnation in the Bible.

The thing is, though, that I never really used the Bible when answering the problem of evil.

Is that why you made the topic in the first place?

[Simba]

Is that why you made the topic in the first place?

Which topic? This one or the Transmigration topic?

[*Uronacid*]

Which topic? This one or the Transmigration topic?

This one...

[Simba]

Oh, my bad.

Nah, I just wanted to see how people with different perspectives would respond to the problem, and how their arguments would fare when attacked.

Oh yeah, and of course, to convey a solution.

[*Uronacid*]

Ahhhh...

Alright well, as I was saying before, I don't think reincarnation is supported by the Bible. There are obviously verses that "when taken out of context" could appear to have reference to reincarnation, but to my understanding most of those verses have reference to individuals having a symbolic "change of heart" when they turn to the Lord.

[Simba]

Ahhhh...

Alright well, as I was saying before, I don't think reincarnation is supported by the Bible. There are obviously verses that "when taken out of context" could appear to have reference to reincarnation, but to my understanding most of those verses have reference to individuals having a symbolic "change of heart" when they turn to the Lord.

Yep. Reincarnation in the Bible has been (and kind of still is being) discussed in the Transmigration thread. Jake said something along the lines of what you just said back there.

[sweetangel2128]

Ahhhh...

Alright well, as I was saying before, I don't think reincarnation is supported by the Bible. There are obviously verses that "when taken out of context" could appear to have reference to reincarnation, but to my understanding most of those verses have reference to individuals having a symbolic "change of heart" when they turn to the Lord.

Yeah, that's what I believe also. I mean it's not just those particular verses either, there are other verses in the Bible that may sound like one thing but mean another. You just got to know how to interpret it right. Sometimes, it really helps going to church though cause someone who's been studying it for 40 something years can explain the verse to you more thoroughly.

[lostgrl16]

i remember this from my philosophy class last year haha. i have to dig upp the notebook and read through the notes again and might leave a comment or two. i think i was pretty into this topic, dont remember much though =(

[*Uronacid*]

Yep. Reincarnation in the Bible has been (and kind of still is being) discussed in the Transmigration thread. Jake said something along the lines of what you just said back there.

Yeah, the bible is a pretty incredible book. It's like a spider web. Everything is linked in some way.

[Simba]

Anyone else have anything to say for or against the problem of evil? Rebuttals to given answers? Questions?

As for you guys who follow the Bible, I suppose your only conflict with my answer is the bit on reincarnation.

[*Uronacid*]

Anyone else have anything to say for or against the problem of evil? Rebuttals to given answers? Questions?

As for you guys who follow the Bible, I suppose your only conflict with my answer is the bit on reincarnation.

Yes, for the most part... My only problem is that I think you're taking the whole reincarnation thing out of context if your trying to link reincarnation to the Bible. If not... I don't know...

[sweetangel2128]

Anyone else have anything to say for or against the problem of evil? Rebuttals to given answers? Questions?

As for you guys who follow the Bible, I suppose your only conflict with my answer is the bit on reincarnation.

Yes, the only conflict is reincarnation so far. But I am not going to judge you for that, that's not my place, I just don't believe in it and it's not in the Bible.

[Kontroll]

My only thing with reincarnation is...how can we understand it? I mean, I hear a lot of stories where people claim to be reborn people from another life, but, it's always when they are in their middle years or later.

I don't agree that evil is suffering. So, I guess we agree. I don't know.

I feel that suffering is a good thing sometimes. Some people abuse it and get pleasure out of it....TRILBY!

Do you get what I'm saying about reincarnation? Its holds up as much as people claiming to have seen an alien. I don't know. I guess it's just a faith thing.

But it was an interesting topic to read about.

[Simba]

Yes, for the most part... My only problem is that I think you're taking the whole reincarnation thing out of context if your trying to link reincarnation to the Bible. If not... I don't know...

I'm really not taking much of an effort in linking reincarnation to the Bible at all.

Well, if you guys want to focus on reincarnation for now, let's take it to the Transmigration topic.

[Kontroll]

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

[Simba]

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

Oh right, while I was introducing the problem of evil. Obviously I'm not for the problem of evil, but arguments state that an omni-benevolent God and "evil" cannot coexist.

While analyzing the problem of evil, you have to define evil, omni-benevolence, omnipotence, and God.

I guess this would tie to the Bible because the Christian God is defined as, basically, perfect.

[sweetangel2128]

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

First of all, God never created Evil, your right he is perfect. The Devil/Lucifer created Evil. He was a beautiful angel from Heaven who betrayed and went against God, tried to throw him off his own throne and was thrown out of Heaven. God gave us free will and Lucifer chose not to follow God, he hated him, he wanted his power..that's where the Evil in the world comes from, the Devil created it.

Yes, true most Evil you can't see but A LOT you can. Evil can be seen. Such as witnessing someone kill a child (your seeing evil happening) or maybe someone committing suicide due to depression (again your seeing evil again).

[*Uronacid*]

First of all, God never created Evil, your right he is perfect. The Devil/Lucifer created Evil. He was a beautiful angel from Heaven who betrayed and went against God, tried to throw him off his own throne and was thrown out of Heaven. God gave us free will and Lucifer chose not to follow God, he hated him, he wanted his power..that's where the Evil in the world comes from, the Devil created it.

Yes, true most Evil you can't see but A LOT you can. Evil can be seen. Such as witnessing someone kill a child (your seeing evil happening) or maybe someone committing suicide due to depression (again your seeing evil again).

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

[Simba]

God created all things.

Exactly.

Everything originates from God.

[sweetangel2128]

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

I know everyone sins, yes even me...

And yes God did create the Devil but he didn't create evil..people make their own choices hence free will like you said.

No, your seeing sin and evil because sin is what evil is called. Anything that is evil is devil-related therefore sinful.

[*Uronacid*]

I know everyone sins, yes even me...

And yes God did create the Devil but he didn't create evil..people make their own choices hence free will like you said.

No, your seeing sin and evil because sin is what evil is called. Anything that is evil is devil-related therefore sinful.

You have to understand that evil is merely ignorance (the absence of infinite love/wisdom/understanding/knowledge). God created people who don't have any of those things...

well... I'm finished with my reply:

Alright, this may be difficult to wrap your mind around.

Here's how I see it. First of all, you have to understand the concept of Love. Love is making the best choice, and the only way you can make the best choice in every situation every single time is if you have "infinite wisdom". Pure Love requires the best choices and is something that only God can do because He is the only Being ever to be able to make the best decision in every situation every single time.

The best decision is the perfect decision. Perfection is relative, and cannot be defined. The only Being who knows true perfection is God Himself, and the only reason He knows true perfection is because He is infinitely wise. You cannot make the "best" choices if the worst choices do not exist, and the only different between the perfect choice (if you know what it is) and the alternative is the worst choice. Meaning, any other alternative is just as bad as the worst choice if the best known alternative is purposely avoided even though it is the known best choice because the worst choice is also relative. The Greek philosopher Plato argued, "evil is merely ignorance." I agree, any decision aside from the best decision is a decision tainted by evil (A.K.A: "the ignorance of the best decision".)

Rick Bobby - Talladega Knights: "If you're not first, you're last."

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

For God to have the ability to love, He has to have the ability to do all things or in other words make all choices (including sin). Without the ability to sin He wouldn't need infinite wisdom, because without evil, imperfections wouldn't exist. The perfect choice wouldn't need infinite wisdom. If evil didn't exist then perfect choices would simply happen. It's not that God cannot sin, He just chooses not to and never will.

Interesting Observation: If you believe in God then, if God didn't have the ability to do something then it would not exist because he has the ability to accomplish all things (including contradictions).

When God placed the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" into the word He gave us the ability to love. When He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, He gave them the ability to make a choice. He gave them the ability to choose Love by obeying him (the best choice) or choose evil by taking the fruit of the tree (the alternative).

Eve chose to take the fruit out because she was selfish.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)

Often times, people tend to think that the tree had magical properties that unlocked "wisdom". I personally don't think so. Before Adam and Eve had even seen the tree, Lucifer had already fallen from heaven. Beings were already making evil choices. The tree was more of a lesson than a magic turning point in humanity.

I don't think that the tree gave them wisdom. Wisdom already existed. The tree taught them that they had the ability to make choices. It taught them to use applied knowledge to the decisions they make in their lives. The tree was a tool that indirectly gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of wisdom existing.

Giving us the ability to Love without infinite wisdom makes us imperfect or evil by nature. Because we don't have infinite wisdom, we learn from our surroundings. We learn to make decisions based upon the effect they will have on our lives. We make decisions based upon opportunity costs. To many, "perfect" decisions would effect our lives in the most positive way possible. In reality, perfect decisions effect eternity in the best way possible. The best decisions end up being self-less because we don't know all things. Perhaps this is why:

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends" - John 15.13

This is not to say that laying down ones life for one's friend is a perfect decision, but that it is the greatest love humans are capable of showing due to the fact that we do not know all things. God is the only one who can truly love, for He is Love. We can only do our best.

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." - John 4:8

[sweetangel2128]

You have to understand that evil is merely ignorance (the absence of infinite love/wisdom/understanding/knowledge). God created people who don't have any of those things...

well... I'm finished with my reply:

Alright, this may be difficult to wrap your mind around.

Here's how I see it. First of all, you have to understand the concept of Love. Love is making the best choice, and the only way you can make the best choice in every situation every single time is if you have "infinite wisdom". Pure Love requires the best choices and is something that only God can do because He is the only Being ever to be able to make the best decision in every situation every single time.

The best decision is the perfect decision. Perfection is relative, and cannot be defined. The only Being who knows true perfection is God Himself, and the only reason He knows true perfection is because He is infinitely wise. You cannot make the "best" choices if the worst choices do not exist, and the only different between the perfect choice (if you know what it is) and the alternative is the worst choice. Meaning, any other alternative is just as bad as the worst choice if the best known alternative is purposely avoided even though it is the known best choice because the worst choice is also relative. The Greek philosopher Plato argued, "evil is merely ignorance." I agree, any decision aside from the best decision is a decision tainted by evil (A.K.A: "the ignorance of the best decision".)

Rick Bobby - Talladega Knights: "If you're not first, you're last."

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

For God to have the ability to love, He has to have the ability to do all things or in other words make all choices (including sin). Without the ability to sin He wouldn't need infinite wisdom, because without evil, imperfections wouldn't exist. The perfect choice wouldn't need infinite wisdom. If evil didn't exist then perfect choices would simply happen. It's not that God cannot sin, He just chooses not to and never will.

Interesting Observation: If you believe in God then, if God didn't have the ability to do something then it would not exist because he has the ability to accomplish all things (including contradictions).

When God placed the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" into the word He gave us the ability to love. When He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, He gave them the ability to make a choice. He gave them the ability to choose Love by obeying him (the best choice) or choose evil by taking the fruit of the tree (the alternative).

Eve chose to take the fruit out because she was selfish.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)

Often times, people tend to think that the tree had magical properties that unlocked "wisdom". I personally don't think so. Before Adam and Eve had even seen the tree, Lucifer had already fallen from heaven. Beings were already making evil choices. The tree was more of a lesson than a magic turning point in humanity.

I don't think that the tree gave them wisdom. Wisdom already existed. The tree taught them that they had the ability to make choices. It taught them to use applied knowledge to the decisions they make in their lives. The tree was a tool that indirectly gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of wisdom existing.

Giving us the ability to Love without infinite wisdom makes us imperfect or evil by nature. Because we don't have infinite wisdom, we learn from our surroundings. We learn to make decisions based upon the effect they will have on our lives. We make decisions based upon opportunity costs. To many, "perfect" decisions would effect our lives in the most positive way possible. In reality, perfect decisions effect eternity in the best way possible. The best decisions end up being self-less because we don't know all things. Perhaps this is why:

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends" - John 15.13

This is not to say that laying down ones life for one's friend is a perfect decision, but that it is the greatest love humans are capable of showing due to the fact that we do not know all things. God is the only one who can truly love, for He is Love. We can only do our best.

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." - John 4:8

I wouldn't say no one has any of those things, I think a lot of people have love and wisdom, maybe not knowledge of all things but knowledge in a lot of things. Your right God is love. God created people who would have some knowledge, some wisdom and definitly love but it depends on how we use it or if we choose to use it. EVERYONE and is capable of loving if they choose to.

Love is not just making the best choice but a feeling towards something or someone. But it also is more than a feeling, it's kinda hard to explain, I know what love is don't get me wrong but to me love is unexplainable.

True, God is the only one that can make the best/perfect choice everytime, because he IS perfect but that doesn't mean that we as humans don't make the best choices. I think a lot of times we do make the wrong choices but in alot of cases we do tend to make the right onces.

True, anything that is evil and your making your choice in that is obviously not the best choice in God's eyes, I do agree with that

Yes, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, were human, we make mistakes and we do have that free will, so we choose our own fate, whether it to be with God or against God. But without the Devil, Evil wouldn't exist in the world because he created the Evil, he's the one that causes the Evil in this world and he will do anything to steer you away from God. It's hard to explain what I mean but like I said yes God created all but one thing he did not create was sin/evil, the Devil which was made by God went against God and sinned, he created that Evil and now that Evil exists today. If God is loving, why would he create bad? That just makes no sense.

Yes, he did place both trees but he also told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they didn't die but they did sin in god's eyes because they went against him. God did place both trees as I said which gave us free will but he didn't create evil itself.

I agree the tree was a lesson and to see what path they'd take. Evil was going on in the world because the Devil. He was steering people away from God and causing them to do Evil things, his works. When you go to Heaven you will NOT see Evil because God didn't create it and he wants only love and happiness in his holy place, which is Heaven.

Yes, we are born sinners and evil by nature but God didn't create that, it happend because we started to follow the Devil which caused us to be evil so still the Devil did create evil. We are born sinners because we are not perfect, only God is, he didn't make us that way, he made us in his image, it's just that we chose to follow Evil that the Devil created.

You had some very good points but your not really explaining to me why you think God created Evil. All the stuff you just posted, I already knew.

[Simba]

"Evil" by human perspective = Suffering =/= Real evil
Evil (and hell) by more accurate terms = Dim consciousness of God
In addition: "Evil" is not contingent on a/the "Devil." "Evil" is, however contingent with Freewill.

Come on guys, I thought we already went over this.

[Kontroll]

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

God can't do everything. He might be all powerful, but if He were to sin, sin wouldn't be evil, because God is perfect.

[Simba]

God can't do everything. He might be all powerful, but if He were to sin, sin wouldn't be evil, because God is perfect.

Well, if God can't do everything, wouldn't that make him... imperfect?

[*Uronacid*]

oops...

[*Uronacid*]

God can't do everything. He might be all powerful, but if He were to sin, sin wouldn't be evil, because God is perfect.

God, can sin but he chooses not to.

Well, if God can't do everything, wouldn't that make him... imperfect?

Perfection is relative, no-one knows what perfect is. Only God knows.. all we know is that GOD CREATED ALL THINGS... >.<

I wouldn't say no one has any of those things, I think a lot of people have love and wisdom, maybe not knowledge of all things but knowledge in a lot of things. Your right God is love. God created people who would have some knowledge, some wisdom and definitly love but it depends on how we use it or if we choose to use it. EVERYONE and is capable of loving if they choose to.

Not all people have love and wisdom. The have the capability of showing love or wisdom, but not everyone chooses to be loving or wise. You must make the choice to do both.

Think of this... Knowledge is the beginning of Understanding is the beginning of Wisdom is the beginning of Love. Knowledge is Facts, Understanding is the interpretation of those facts, Wisdom is application of interpreted facts, and Love is supposed to be the outcome. On the other hand, you could receive false knowledge, have a skewed understanding, end up with false wisdom, an d end up really hurting someone even if you're trying to help them.

To have PURE love you must have a infinite wisdom from infinite understanding of infinte knowledge. Love is a decision. It's a conscious decision to make the best decsion. Like you said, "EVERYONE and is capable of loving if they choose to."

Love is not just making the best choice but a feeling towards something or someone. But it also is more than a feeling, it's kinda hard to explain, I know what love is don't get me wrong but to me love is unexplainable.

There are plenty of times when people "feel" like they love someone, but really aren't. How about when a parent spoils their child with toys, or when a boyfriend/girlfriend becomes too possessive, in both of these examples the individual feels love but isn't really loving. Love is not unexplainable. Simply put, pure love is making the best choices for eternity and love is making the best choices that we know of. Only one person can do that. This is why God is Infinite Love - Infinite Love requires Infinite Wisdom requires Infinite Understanding requires Infinite Knowledge. Only God has all four.

True, God is the only one that can make the best/perfect choice everytime, because he IS perfect but that doesn't mean that we as humans don't make the best choices. I think a lot of times we do make the wrong choices but in alot of cases we do tend to make the right onces.

How do you know that you are making the best choice when you don't know every possibly and every outcome of every possibility. In every decision, you are probably making the best decision you know how to make. It's not the same thing. The best choice does not equal the best choice you know of. The truth is, you probably have no idea what the best choice is. This is exactly why you can never have pure love. The only thing you can do is try your best, and that's exactly what God asks of us.

True, anything that is evil and your making your choice in that is obviously not the best choice in God's eyes, I do agree with that

Yes, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, were human, we make mistakes and we do have that free will, so we choose our own fate, whether it to be with God or against God. But without the Devil, Evil wouldn't exist in the world because he created the Evil, he's the one that causes the Evil in this world and he will do anything to steer you away from God. It's hard to explain what I mean but like I said yes God created all but one thing he did not create was sin/evil, the Devil which was made by God went against God and sinned, he created that Evil and now that Evil exists today. If God is loving, why would he create bad? That just makes no sense.

It does make sense. Without evil, love wouldn't exist.

Yes, he did place both trees but he also told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they didn't die but they did sin in god's eyes because they went against him. God did place both trees as I said which gave us free will but he didn't create evil itself.

both trees?

I agree the tree was a lesson and to see what path they'd take. Evil was going on in the world because the Devil. He was steering people away from God and causing them to do Evil things, his works. When you go to Heaven you will NOT see Evil because God didn't create it and he wants only love and happiness in his holy place, which is Heaven.

Evil is nothing but ignorance. You have to understand that. Evil is not having Infinite Love which requires Infinite Wisdom... so etc. You will not see evil in Heaven because God will reveal to us "all things".

Yes, we are born sinners and evil by nature but God didn't create that, it happend because we started to follow the Devil which caused us to be evil so still the Devil did create evil. We are born sinners because we are not perfect, only God is, he didn't make us that way, he made us in his image, it's just that we chose to follow Evil that the Devil created.

You had some very good points but your not really explaining to me why you think God created Evil. All the stuff you just posted, I already knew.

Ugh... you don't get it... GOD CREATED EVIL SO WE COULD LOVE. WITHOUT EVIL LOVE COULDN'T EXIST. >.>