The Kennedy Assassination Options

[Gypsy Eyes]

We're discussing this in my great moral class and I was so suprised that nothing came up when I searched this, if there is I'm really sorry just merge it or something. Alright moving on.

Who do you think killed Kennedy? There has been so much debate over this issue, the government is saying one thing and the eye witnesses are saying another. The "conclusion" has been changed so many times in order to keep Oswald as the only killer.

I could rant for hours on this so what is your opinion? If you want some more background information this is a really good site.

[*I Shot JFK*]

I Shot JFK.

nuff said.

[illriginal]

Has ties with the Federal Bank system.

[*Statues/Shadows*]

Well, James, obviously.

Such a shame people won't just take confessions at face value these days.

[illriginal]

Well, James, obviously.

Such a shame people won't just take confessions at face value these days.

The question is... was he paid to kill JFK? Even Abraham Lincoln was assassinated for trying to stop the agenda of the Federal Reserve...

[kimmytree]

Idk. Maybe the government was behind it? Wouldnt surprise me.

[demolished]

I Shot JFK.

nuff said.

I did.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^
aww, see, the difference is, when i said it, it was funny

[think!IMAGINARIL...]

Idk. Maybe the government was behind it? Wouldnt surprise me.

I agree.

They have the power to cover it up.

[*Kathleen*]

Yes, Oswald shot at Kennedy. Yes, the bullet Oswald shot pierced Kennedy. No, the fatal bullet was not from Oswald and could not have possibly been shot from Oswald's gun at his angle. Over fifty witnesses claim to have heard shots from the grassy knoll - the appropriate/perfect angle for where the fatal bullet [to the head] could have come from. And there's no way a pristine bullet pierced both Kennedy and Conally.

[NoSex]

No, the fatal bullet was not from Oswald and could not have possibly been shot from Oswald's gun at his angle.

Why not?
How exactly do you know this?

Over fifty witnesses claim to have heard shots from the grassy knoll - the appropriate/perfect angle for where the fatal bullet [to the head] could have come from.

How is that the perfect angle? How many more witnesses said they heard nothing? How many more told entirely divergent accounts?

And there's no way a pristine bullet pierced both Kennedy and Conally.[/font]

Why not?
Click here -> Trajectory.
In the same documentary on the issue, they proved that the same caliber bullet, shot at the same angle, from the same distance, from the same model and year rifle, could indeed pierce boh Kennedy and Conally, given the trajectory above and without striking bone.

How did they prove it? They did it! They replicated the situation and had several blocks of "imitation human beings" made by FBI standards. Ballistic experts. Rifle experts. Scientists. The bullet reacted just as had been described in the official explanation. So, hypothetically, it is possible. There is a way.

[Gypsy Eyes]

A good 100 people started chasing the figure seen on the grassy knoll but they were stopped by a police officer.

Yes technically the single bullet theory would work but if you watch the actual video, the bullet would have had to move over a good six inches to pierce the governor the way it did.

The bullet wounds are smaller on the front of his neck, and larger on the back therfore it entered through the front, not the back. Simple forensics

Besides, if you see pictures (i've actually been there) there is a huge tree right in the way (it was pretty big back then too).

Witnesses say they saw Oswald in the company cafe right after the shooting, not out of breath at all. This would mean that he ran across an entire attic (mind you this place is huge, and there are stacks of books everywhere) down 6 flights of stairs and down two hallways in a matter of 2 minutes without even being slightly winded.

There is still the issue of the "magic bullet" found on a stretcher in the hospital both kennedy and the governor were taken to. Someone found a bullet on a hospital stretcher in perfect condition. The government says it had fallen out of Conally's clothes (and supposedly killed kennedy) but it was on the wrong stretcher! They were telling the person who found it that he was lying, and it was found of Conally's stretcher.

Besides, how could a bullet that pierced a throat, and a shoulder blade still be in perfect condition?

[*Kathleen*]

Why not?
How exactly do you know this?

The Zapruder Film clearly shows that Kennedy went backwards as the bullet struck his head, meaning that the shot had to have come from the front. The School Book Depository was behind Kennedy.

How is that the perfect angle? How many more witnesses said they heard nothing? How many more told entirely divergent accounts?

I meant the perfect angle as in.. well. *Points to Zapruder film bit* There were a few that were a bit off, but I don't think that interfered much with the general consensus. One lady claimed she was on the bus with Oswald at the time that he was at work. Oh, and I was wrong; according to this article, there were 51 witnesses that heard shots from the grassy knoll. I can't seem to find how many didn't hear anything.

Click here -> Trajectory.
In the same documentary on the issue, they proved that the same caliber bullet, shot at the same angle, from the same distance, from the same model and year rifle, could indeed pierce boh Kennedy and Conally, given the trajectory above and without striking bone.

I'm back to dial-up. I can't watch it. Okay, but to be pristine? Since I can't see it, does it confirm that Conally was hit in his wrist as well? I know the Warren Commission report states that (if you want, I can quote it for you, but I'm too lazy to find it at the moment ), but there are multiple witnesses that saw him holding his hat on the stretcher with that hand.

How did they prove it? They did it! They replicated the situation and had several blocks of "imitation human beings" made by FBI standards. Ballistic experts. Rifle experts. Scientists. The bullet reacted just as had been described in the official explanation. So, hypothetically, it is possible. There is a way.

Yes, but the vast majority of them work under the government.

Oiii. I didn't realize this was in Debate. I swore never to post in here since I left.

[demolished]

Wow Kathleen, you impressed me. I'm learning good stuff from you.

^
aww, see, the difference is, when i said it, it was funny

Yeah, i know. It was my intention to annoy readers ... as usual.

[NoSex]

A good 100 people started chasing the figure seen on the grassy knoll but they were stopped by a police officer.

100 people were stopped by a police officer? Really? So, 100 people were determined enough to run after a figure they had seen on the grassy knoll (despite the fact that I can not seem to find any reports that any more than a few had ever even reported seeing any kind of figure behind the knoll) bu they were not determined enough to run passed a single officer? Not to mention, I have heard the same story told many different ways. Sometimes the figure mysteriously disappears, other times a small group is stopped by a few men with FBI identification, and others large groups are stopped by a single police officer?

I can believe people might have thought they hear or saw something and decided to have a look, but you make it sound so much more urgent then it was. Insofar as I know, no one even bothered to move behind the Knoll until the President's limo was long gone. Did the figure just happen to hang around that long?

Yes technically the single bullet theory would work but if you watch the actual video, the bullet would have had to move over a good six inches to pierce the governor the way it did.

Which video? The video I posted? It explains that entirely.

The bullet wouldn't have had to move over, the Governer and the President were positioned, at that moment, perfectly for the wounds observed on their bodies and a single bullet trajectory from the Texas School Book Depository. In fact, Conally was positioned 6 inches in-board. So, the conspiracy model is just wrong. They assume that Conally is positioned directly in-front of Kennedy. He isn't, he's 6 inches over. The bullet doesn't have to move. Conally already had.

If you're talking about the Zapruder video. Even there, you can tell the Governer is further from the door and seated lower than the president. Nothing unusual really.

The bullet wounds are smaller on the front of his neck, and larger on the back therfore it entered through the front, not the back. Simple forensics

Well, unfortunately, forensics aren't simple. It isn't the easiest to determine exactly which wound is the exit and which is the entree without quite a bit of information. Given this situation, we're dealing with a high powered rifle and a CE 399 bullet in a full metal jacket. You expect, in this case, for it to be even more difficult to determine an exit from and entree.

Doctors who were either affiliated with the autopsy or the initial care of the body made this fact very clear.

A Dr. Charles S. Carrico, when asked whether he had sufficient evidence to form a solid opinion on whether the throat wound was an exit or an entree, he responded, "No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth." [1]

Taking into account the addition of further investigation, Dr. Carrico further stated that "With those facts and the fact. as I understand it no other bullet was found this would be, this was [the throat], I believe, was an exit wound."

Further, Dr. Carrico's colleagues at the Bethesda Naval Hospital agreed; as did a Dr. Perry, who worked closely with the body. [2]

Still, if we examine the autopsy and pathology reports we find that the neck wound was "widely gaping" and had "irregular edges" while such gaps and edges were not observed in the back (which would be identified as the entree wound).

Further, the back wound was - an oval - 6x7 millimeters. While the neck wound stretched out 6.5 cm. [3]

The neck wound was actually larger than the back. Although, because of a tracheotomy performed by Dr. Perry, in attempt to save the president's life, much of the original wound was destoryed. However, further evidence suggests that the bullet came from above and behind the president. Fibers on Kennedy's clothing pulled with the trajectory of the bullet [4]. Witnesses saw a rifle and heard the shots coming for the Texas School Book Depository [5]. This helps to explain damage to the limo's windshield from the interior. It is a coherent, tested, and plausible explanation for the wounds and events sustained by both Conally and Kennedy.

Besides, if you see pictures (i've actually been there) there is a huge tree right in the way (it was pretty big back then too).

The FBI and secret services, among others, have done numerous tests and recreations of the events of that day in Dallas. From the 6th floor window where Oswald is believed to have fired from, snipers have made note of the Oak tree. The tree itself is of no serious obstruction and did not present itself as a problem given the position of Oswald and the President when the shots were made. [6]

Witnesses say they saw Oswald in the company cafe right after the shooting, not out of breath at all. This would mean that he ran across an entire attic (mind you this place is huge, and there are stacks of books everywhere) down 6 flights of stairs and down two hallways in a matter of 2 minutes without even being slightly winded.

The place wasn't all too large. Oswald resided on the 6th floor, and the lunchroom was on the 2nd. We're talking four flights, not six. He wasn't in an attic. The place is relatively clean and easy to navigate. Not to mention, two minutes isn't exactly a fair time.

The witnesses you're talking about are motorcycle officer Marion Baker, and TBSD superintendent Roy Trully. Officer Baker had heard the gunshots and was immediately cautioned. At this time he was rolling onto Houstan St. off of Main. He looked towards where he believed the shot had rang out from, the Texas School Book Deposity (TSBD). He saw pigeons displace and began to accelerate towards the building. Fighting through a crowd of people he made it into the complex and met with Mr. Trully. Both then began to seach each floor in, its entirety, for persons out of place.

Making it to the lunchroom, Baker pulled his gun on Oswald when Trully quickly informed the officer that Oswald was an employee. They moved on. So, in two minutes, Baker drove his motocycle all the way down Houston St, parked his Bike, fought he way through the crowd, made his way into the complex, explain his position to Trully, and began to seach the first floor.

Sounds like more than enough time for Oswald to throw a gun behind some boxes and walk four flights of stairs into the lunchroom. [7(page 5)]

Besides, how could a bullet that pierced a throat, and a shoulder blade still be in perfect condition?

Perfect condition? Why doesn't everyone think the bullet was in perfect condition?! It wasn't!



The bullet sustained consistent damage as would be expected given the wounds of the two men. As the bullet had a full metal jacket, it was created to pierce the body with minimal fragmentation. However, it clearly is damaged, far from perfect.



These are test rounds. They were shot through simulations to represent human forms. Notice the increase in damage from left to right given the increase in velocity. The "magic bullet" isn't so magical. And definately not as "pristine" as some may assume.

The Zapruder Film clearly shows that Kennedy went backwards as the bullet struck his head, meaning that the shot had to have come from the front. The School Book Depository was behind Kennedy.

How does his head moving backwards suggest that the bullet had to come from the front? I think you've been watching too many movies. This isn't actually how physics operates. Bullets don't exactly have enough resistence, especially not one with a full metal jacket fired from a powerful rifle, to push a head/body/whatever, in its direction.

The pressure release actually tends to move the head towards the origin and entree wound of the bullet in the skull, especially if the exit blows out tissue. This is the jet effect. Ontop of this, the movement is probably better explained as a result of neuromuscular reaction. [8]

There were a few that were a bit off, but I don't think that interfered much with the general consensus. One lady claimed she was on the bus with Oswald at the time that he was at work. Oh, and I was wrong; according to this article, there were 51 witnesses that heard shots from the grassy knoll. I can't seem to find how many didn't hear anything.

Insofar as I know, the general consensus was (and is) that the bullets came from the TSBD.
Also, I mean those who heard nothing from the Knoll.

I'm back to dial-up. I can't watch it. Okay, but to be pristine? Since I can't see it, does it confirm that Conally was hit in his wrist as well? I know the Warren Commission report states that (if you want, I can quote it for you, but I'm too lazy to find it at the moment ), but there are multiple witnesses that saw him holding his hat on the stretcher with that hand.

I already proved that bullet wasn't "pristine."
Also, Conally's wrist wasn't that damaged. In fact, he didn't even notice it until the morning after. The doctor didn't catch it either. But, they patched it up afterwatds, no biggie. So, even if he was seen holding his hat, so what? He didn't even realize his hand sustained damage in the first place! [9]

Yes, but the vast majority of them work under the government.

Uhh, actually, I don't think so.

[sadolakced acid]

i don't think it was sirhan sirhan.

it's possible... but not all that probable.

(i think the robert kennedy assasination is much more intreguing)

[illriginal]

I Just realized... and not tryin to offend anyone, but there's seriously some brainwashed people in this thread and it's quite laughable

[*Zatanna*]

^ Just stop.
Re-read (or read for the first time the rules of this forum):
Rules of the Debate- Please READ, READ FIRST

Here are some guidelines when engaging in spirited arguments, ie debates.
-Read the topic carefully. Understand what is being argued before going off on a rant.
-Be sure to back up your arguments with valid facts.
-Be sure to read the entire thread to check if an argument has been covered. No one likes having to read "Well I think <insert position here> is fine, you are closeminded so STFU!!!111eone".
-If you are going to post in debate, stay in the debate. Don't just post in a topic once, never to show up again. People might want to ask follow up questions.
-Please be respectful, don't flame or make personal attacks.

Enjoy.

While you're at it, read through the "general forum guidelines, please read" thread as well. You won't be given a pop quiz, but you will be expected to follow the rules.

I Just realized... and not tryin to offend anyone, but there's seriously some brainwashed people in this thread and it's quite laughable

Any more comments like that and I'll have to give you a verbal warning. I'm sorry.

[Gypsy Eyes]

Which video? The video I posted? It explains that entirely.

I'm talking about the actual video account of the assassination.

And the place is not clean at all, I've been there. It's a large attic, and there were stacks of books everywhere. There is no way in hell he could have ran even four flights of stairs in that time.

And the FBI conducted the tests, the exact people who are in question. And yes he is six inches over from Kennedy, it shot kennedy in the throat, how could it magically move over to pierce Conally in the shoulder?

[NoSex]

And the place is not clean at all, I've been there. It's a large attic, and there were stacks of books everywhere. There is no way in hell he could have ran even four flights of stairs in that time.

The 6th floor is an attic? I'm not sure. But, were you there back in 1963?
In what time? I also brought up the fact that two minutes seems unreasonable.
Remember, the police officer had to drive down Houston St., fight his way through a crowd of people, explain the situation to the super intendent, and search the entirety of the first floor. So, he can do that in two minutes, but Oswald can't run down four flights of stairs?

Come on.

Not to mention, people on the fifth floor heard the gun shots from above. They even heard shells hitting the floor and the click of the hammer on the rifle. Bonnie Ray Williams sat on the fifth floor with several of his fellow employees when the shooting took place. He described the experience as follows:

...and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle... 45
...because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.

People saw a rifle sticking out of the 6th floor window. The rifle was found at the sniper's nest, as were shells and other debris. Clearly, someone was shooting.(1)

And the FBI conducted the tests, the exact people who are in question.

The FBI isn't the only group of people who have conducted that test and others. Many persons, independent of the government have done their own research and tests. On the idea that Oswald could not have made it down those four flights of stairs in time to be in the lunchroom, check out Dave Perry's independent notes on his test. He describes that it is entirely possible that it happened, and that all his tests measured below 78 seconds, despite if the subject was walking or running.(2)

Also, if you don't believe the government that the tree wouldn't be a problem, take a look out the window yourself.



Not a problem.

And yes he is six inches over from Kennedy, it shot kennedy in the throat, how could it magically move over to pierce Conally in the shoulder?

This is your problem. You're still working off of the conspiracy model. Where both of them sit back to back and face forward with their hands on their laps and their heads looking straight ahead. Watch the Zapruder video, that does not reflect the actual positioning of the bodies. The bullet didn't have to move over to hit Conally's shoulder, Conally had moved his shoulder.



No problem.

[Gypsy Eyes]

Alright, thank you. Point proven. On the video we watched in history it wasn't from that view. I really have to find that video though, you would find it interesting

I never said that there wasn't someone up there, Oswald was involved. I just don't believe he was the only shooter.

[NoSex]

Alright, thank you. Point proven. On the video we watched in history it wasn't from that view. I really have to find that video though, you would find it interesting

That is interesting. As far as I knew, only the Zapruder film caught the shooting. Hmm, although, I think I remember hearing about other footage that caught the president before and or after the shooting. Not positive.

I never said that there wasn't someone up there, Oswald was involved. I just don't believe he was the only shooter.

Why not believe he was the only shooter?
All the evidence points to the fact that there were three shots, all made from the Texas School Depository, by Oswald's rifle out of the 6th window. I don't really see the need for another shooter, it just seems unlikely anyways.

[*mipadi*]

All the evidence points to the fact that there were three shots, all made from the Texas School Depository, by Oswald's rifle out of the 6th window.

Not all the evidence. There are a few key pieces of testimony and evidence that suggest the shots did not come entirely from a position to the rear in the depository. Some witness testimony reports that Kennedy's head was blown out from the rear, and the bullet hole on the back of his head is unusually large, suggesting an exit, not entrance, wound. The bullet trajectories are also a bit suspect. It's possible for the so-called "single bullet theory" to be true, but there is enough evidence to call that into question. Furthermore, at least one Secret Service agent reported hearing a "flurry of shells" enter the car.

There's also the point of Oswald's rifle, and his shooting acumen. The shots all came fairly quickly. Oswald was allegedly a good shooter (although that's been disputed, too), but his rifle was cheap. I'm not familiar with Oswald's exact weapon, but I target-shoot as a hobby, and I'm of the opinion it would be difficult to take three aimed, accurate shots at Oswald's range in the amount of time he allegedly took to fire.

[Gypsy Eyes]

Also take into consideration the fact that during the transportation of the body from texas to Washington DC the casket was somehow changed. The man who dressed his body back in texas wrapped him in white silk in a ceremonial coffin. Somehow he ended up in a black body bag in a much smaller coffin.

The autopsy reports from the two places don't match either. Doctors in Texas reported the throat as a small, clean (well not ragged edges) wound while DC reported it as large with jagged edges. The report from texas talks about a large piece missing from his skull, with the cerebellum (sp?) easily visible. The report in DC states it was a smaller, neat would on the top of his head.

A large chunk of his skull was seen flying towards the back of the car (with Jackie diving after it). How did this huge chunk (easily visible on camera) manage to shrink into a smaller wound?

Why was the car washed out after the body was removed? The scientist performing the autopsy in DC wasn't even a forensic scientist. It was his first real autopsy. Why put someone so in-experienced in charge of one of most important bodies of that time if there was nothing to hide?

[sadolakced acid]

the coffin can easily be explained by them not letting them put the coffin in the cargo hold of air force one. Therefore, it had to fit in the passenger area, and was probably be in a smaller on then.

the autopsy is because it was not a federal case. The FBI was not allowed to investigate it. the local police had to investigate it, as they would any murder in dallas.

[Gypsy Eyes]

That is a possibility, but still questionable.

Even so, a person with no forensic experience? It was his FIRST autopsy. What about the differences in the reports?

That is interesting. As far as I knew, only the Zapruder film caught the shooting. Hmm, although, I think I remember hearing about other footage that caught the president before and or after the shooting. Not positive.

There were many videos, the Zapruder is most often used.

[sadolakced acid]

the differences can be attributed to human error.

those are descriptions. what to one person could be jagged could be smooth to another. now, if tehre were discrepant photos, that would be evidence. or if they measured the size and wrote that, that would be evidence.

as far as a first autopsy, it was probably because it seemed obvious how he died at the time. It was given to local authorities, and the person in charge probably thought to give the new guy some experience.

i mean, how hard is it to write 'gunshot wound to the head'. i doubt they expected the controversy.

as far as oswald shooting the president, personally, i think he was framed.

sure, i think the shot came from the school book depository. but, if you would look at the area that the bullet could have been shot from, sure, it encloses the window oswald was at, but it centers on the window on the fifth floor.

[Gypsy Eyes]

They both reported different sizes. Not just jagged/smooth.

[*Kathleen*]

Also, if they're supposedly highly-trained in their fields (or should be if they acquired their positions), why weren't they somewhat consistent? [/random interjection]

[sadolakced acid]

well, autopsies sometimes alter the corpse.

and if the first coroner was as inexerienced as you say, then i don't doubt that was possible.

i think you're reading too much into it. there is no provable discrepancy. there are too many other possible explanations.

[Gypsy Eyes]

The second one was the idiot, not the first.

[rAwritsgWeg]

Ughhh

Yea, If the magic bullet theory can be proven true(A bullet stopped in midair for 2 seconds, which defies the laws of physics, yet countless people believe it)then, I truly believe its a conspiracy. A big one. Quite annoying that people believe the government. I mean, yes you can believe them to a point but, they just cant be trusted. However, I find it pointless to argue becuase there will never be an agreement upon an answer. I'm just voicing my opion.

And if you are interested, watch the movie, JFK with Kevin Costner....I think. It rounds out at around 3 hours....but its probably one of my most favorite movies

[Gypsy Eyes]

Also there is the fact that his brain is missing.

[sadolakced acid]

wow... becuase watching a fictional movie is so much more accurate that the government could possiblly be.

[demolished]

Also there is the fact that his brain is missing.

Are you joking w/ me?

[rerics]

This is your problem. You're still working off of the conspiracy model. Where both of them sit back to back and face forward with their hands on their laps and their heads looking straight ahead. Watch the Zapruder video, that does not reflect the actual positioning of the bodies. The bullet didn't have to move over to hit Conally's shoulder, Conally had moved his shoulder.

Such a positioning of the two that would make such a trajectory possible may indeed be an accurate recreation of how they were sitting. However, the two concerns I have about this supposed single bullet doing all of the non-deadly wounds are: 1) The autopsy indicates a high back wound that does not penetrate the body, a wound whose end can be felt with a probing finger, and 2) a neck wound that, though appearing to be a small entrance wound in Dallas, was described to be a 7-8 cm jagged gaping wound in Bethesda. Dallas emergency room drs. describe a much smaller cleaner hole, and even the need for a trachetomy would not produce such a large irregular defect.