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[ric22]

Hi all, I really appreciate participating in your forum and will start my posting with new information.
After the tragic attack on 9/11 and the war on terrorism, Islam remain the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/n1..._200110043.html

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3
http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/am.htm

Famous people too:
Singer "Cat Stevens" Oh, baby, baby it's a wild world
Hear his story as told him
http://catstevens.com/discography/people/00001.html

[ This would do better in Debate. Moved to Debate. Feel free to inform a staff member if it wasn't your intention to make this a debate.]

This post has been edited by mona lisa: Sep 3 2006, 07:14 AM

[goodcharlotte]

Wait so what? What are we discussing?

[*kryogenix*]

The fastest growing fallacy

[ric22]

From what I've heard from different people who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions:


1. Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent.  This means that He does not derive his existence from anyone. also they both believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. In fact, no Muslim can be a Muslim unless he or she believes in Jesus, on whom be peace.

The Quran teach that Jesus is prophet or messenger from Allah and not a God so Quran denies the divinity of Jesus.The Qur'an says that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he spoke while he was still only a baby, that he healed the blind and the leper by God's leave, and that he raised the dead by God's leave.


2. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc.many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected; even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.Some people also studied Buddhism, flirted with Roman Catholicism or spent time with Quakers, but ultimately found them lacking.


3. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.


4. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.

A person like me who is unfamiliar with Islamic teachings might be surprised to hear that Islam does not rely upon blind faith to make its case, but rather, encourages to use minds. For example, the Qur'an invites to ponder upon the wonders of creation, and challenges with intellectual arguments. Further study of the Qur'an demonstrates that sound reasoning and scientific knowledge confirm rather than contradict authentic revelation and its ability to satisfy the intellect whilst bringing peace to the soul.

That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.

[illriginal]

The fastest growing fallacy

A fallacy? Prove it!

You hold no water on that prejudice post.

I find it funny that Atheist find many flaws in Christianity and cannot believe in religion because of it... and now all of a sudden many Atheist converted to Islam because there is NO flaws in the Qur'an.



And speakin of fallacy... Catholics go under that category.

BTW, I was Baptist Christian... now I'm Muslim :D

[*kryogenix*]

A fallacy? Prove it!

You hold no water on that prejudice post.

I find it funny that Atheist find many flaws in Christianity and cannot believe in religion because of it... and now all of a sudden many Atheist converted to Islam because there is NO flaws in the Qur'an.
And speakin of fallacy... Catholics go under that category.

BTW, I was Baptist Christian... now I'm Muslim :D

So did you even read the article? It explains the fallacy pretty well.

I think it's even funnier when Muslims grow tired of being oppressed under Muslim regimes, and then convert to Christianity. And then when they do, the Muslim regimes attempt to execute them.

[illriginal]

I advise you to study a little deeper into Islam... you're quite ignorant to Islam, but here: Islam 101

[*kryogenix*]

I advise you to study a little deeper into Islam... you're quite ignorant to Islam, but here: Islam 101

You don't know me, how can you even make that statement?

And why are you dodging my objections?

[illriginal]

Because you're simply using sources from Western civilization media... give me a break. Don't tell me.. you think Prophet Muhammad was a terrorist too right?

Actually can you answer that question for me?...

You don't know me, how can you even make that statement?

I don't have to know you... I just have to know your ideologies, obviously you jumped onto the ban wagon of makin ignorant statements such as callin Islam a form of fallacy. If you truely weren't ignorant to Islam... you'd understand that it's NO WHERE NEAR a form of fallacy.

[*kryogenix*]

Because you're simply using sources from Western civilization media... give me a break. Don't tell me.. you think Prophet Muhammad was a terrorist too right?

LOL, the big bad West. Good way to dodge an arguement.

Muhammad was a warlord who raided caravans and had some questionable marriages. You tell me what he was.

Actually can you answer that question for me?...
I don't have to know you... I just have to know your ideologies, obviously you jumped onto the ban wagon of makin ignorant statements such as callin Islam a form of fallacy. If you truely weren't ignorant to Islam... you'd understand that it's NO WHERE NEAR a form of fallacy.

What are my ideologies then? How do you know how much I've studied Islam? Why are you misinterpreting what I'm saying? Why do you refuse to read things I post? Why do you dodge my questions?

The article I linked to did not call Islam itself a fallacy. It called the "fastest growing" statement a fallacy. Oh wait, but it's the Big Bad West, so it must be wrong.

Hint: It's not a good thing to call someone ignorant when you refuse to read and understand things yourself and make false assumptions.

[illriginal]

LOL, the big bad West. Good way to dodge an arguement.

Muhammad was a warlord who raided caravans and had some questionable marriages. You tell me what he was.
What are my ideologies then? How do you know how much I've studied Islam? Why are you misinterpreting what I'm saying? Why do you refuse to read things I post? Why do you dodge my questions?

The article I linked to did not call Islam itself a fallacy. It called the "fastest growing" statement a fallacy. Oh wait, but it's the Big Bad West, so it must be wrong.

Hint: It's not a good thing to call someone ignorant when you refuse to read and understand things yourself and make false assumptions.

What's there to argue? We all know that Western Civilization and their media is misleading and brainwashing... if you disagree then I fully understand and we should end it there.

Good way to dodge my question, so I'll ask you again, do you believe Prophet Muhammad was a terrorist? I think this is a very simple question to ask. You're Christian yourself, no? So this question should not be hard for you to answer.

You're claiming that Islam is a fallacy only because it's truely the highest converting religion at this point, or am I wrong?

I read your article... all I see is labeling a religion that's popular a fallacy.

The way I see it is... modern day Christianity failed the people and those people went on a hunt to find the truth. Islam is where the truth is. That's why I made a claim of Christians and Atheists converting to Islam, because it is flawless and authentic.

Now back to the fallacy, Islam is not the better religion because people are converting to Islam at a high rate. What makes it better is its authenticity. Maybe I must have misunderstood the point that the thread starter was making. But to me it seems like he was only informing the people of factual information. Then you used the term of fallacy attackin the fact that Islam is currently at a high rate of conversion, as if you still don't want to give Islam any kind of credit ability.

And about the Western Civilization... compared to the Eastern... trust me I feel ashamed of the Western Civilization. I love the faith that the people of the East have, their cultures, and how strong they keep their morals. There's alot more to it. But quite honestly Western Civilizations is goin down the drains.

EDIT: I just realized that article came from a Catholic website... I can't believe I just wasted my time even arguing with even just a little bit of debate.

I'd like to end the debate now, I was wondering why it seems so biased and condescending... moving on.

[ric22]

I really don’t like misunderstanding of my intentions, It is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.in the same time I don't outbid on Islam , it doesn't need any preaching or missionary work or me.

It is unreasonable to think that so many American converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation. before concluding that Islam is true.

These Americans came from different classes, races and walks of life. They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, doctors, nurses, teachers, artists, lawmakers, chefs, laborers, and every other sort of person imaginable.


Regarding the questionable marriages, back in the 7th century, Prophet Mohammed marraige was accepted by all religions and laws of that age.

The Jewish religion even says that a man can have intercourse with a girl that is 3 years and one day old [muslims dont beleive that, and the Jews probably dont implement this now]

Even up untill a hundred years ago, the offical age of consent for a girl was as young as the age of 10 in the USA.

It was reported in the British Media a few years ago, that a girl aged 9 became pregnant after having sex with a 10 year old girl, And many girls are being married around the age of 10 in many African countires [muslim and non muslim countries] . This proves that a girl can concieve at that age.

And if a girl is brought up according to Gods religion, then she is much more mature [mentaly and attitude wise] then a girl of the modern secualr era.

Also we have to take peoples life expectancy into consideration back in the 7th century, the life expectancy back then was a lot shorter then it is now thus it was natural for girls to be married as early as possible.


Islamic guide is for non-Muslims who would like to understand Islam
www.islam-guide.com
http://www.understanding-islam.com/

[*kryogenix*]

What's there to argue? We all know that Western Civilization and their media is misleading and brainwashing... if you disagree then I fully understand and we should end it there.

Good way to dodge my question, so I'll ask you again, do you believe Prophet Muhammad was a terrorist? I think this is a very simple question to ask. You're Christian yourself, no? So this question should not be hard for you to answer.

You're claiming that Islam is a fallacy only because it's truely the highest converting religion at this point, or am I wrong?

I read your article... all I see is labeling a religion that's popular a fallacy.

If Islam is teaching that Western Civilization is bad, then we have a bigger problem at our hands. Western Civilization is welcoming Muslims and tolerating them, but at the same time, Muslims are not grateful and understanding of Western Civilization? How rude!

You know the answer to whether Mo is a terrorist, that is why you ask. Don't play games with me.

You obviously didn't read the article, or you're reading it with tinted glasses. The article states that religions (not just Islam) claim they are the fastest growing by using fuzzy math. I have no idea where you're reading that it says Islam itself is a fallacy (the article isn't limited to Islam itself anyway, so how can you make that claim? Oh right, you didn't read it).

The way I see it is... modern day Christianity failed the people and those people went on a hunt to find the truth. Islam is where the truth is. That's why I made a claim of Christians and Atheists converting to Islam, because it is flawless and authentic.

Oh. You mean like this man?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm

Now back to the fallacy, Islam is not the better religion because people are converting to Islam at a high rate. What makes it better is its authenticity. Maybe I must have misunderstood the point that the thread starter was making. But to me it seems like he was only informing the people of factual information. Then you used the term of fallacy attackin the fact that Islam is currently at a high rate of conversion, as if you still don't want to give Islam any kind of credit ability.

I challenged the claim he made about the fastest growing religion. That's why this is in Debate. But obviously you don't want to debate it, since you're not even reading the article.

And about the Western Civilization... compared to the Eastern... trust me I feel ashamed of the Western Civilization. I love the faith that the people of the East have, their cultures, and how strong they keep their morals. There's alot more to it. But quite honestly Western Civilizations is goin down the drains.

Then why aren't you helping?

EDIT: I just realized that article came from a Catholic website... I can't believe I just wasted my time even arguing with even just a little bit of debate.

What's going on with Islam nowadays? Muslim's I've met had nothing but the deepest respect for Catholicism and Christianity and would be glad to talk to me regarding these issuses.

I'd like to end the debate now, I was wondering why it seems so biased and condescending... moving on.

My posting of the article was not condescending. I was offended when you would not even read it. Are you afraid of something? Afraid of realizing you might have been wrong, so you're cutting yourself off from opposing viewpoints? Is that why you're afraid of arguing with me?

[illriginal]

If Islam is teaching that Western Civilization is bad, then we have a bigger problem at our hands. Western Civilization is welcoming Muslims and tolerating them, but at the same time, Muslims are not grateful and understanding of Western Civilization? How rude!

You know the answer to whether Mo is a terrorist, that is why you ask. Don't play games with me.

You obviously didn't read the article, or you're reading it with tinted glasses. The article states that religions (not just Islam) claim they are the fastest growing by using fuzzy math. I have no idea where you're reading that it says Islam itself is a fallacy (the article isn't limited to Islam itself anyway, so how can you make that claim? Oh right, you didn't read it).
Oh. You mean like this man?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm
I challenged the claim he made about the fastest growing religion. That's why this is in Debate. But obviously you don't want to debate it, since you're not even reading the article.
Then why aren't you helping?
What's going on with Islam nowadays? Muslim's I've met had nothing but the deepest respect for Catholicism and Christianity and would be glad to talk to me regarding these issuses.
My posting of the article was not condescending. I was offended when you would not even read it. Are you afraid of something? Afraid of realizing you might have been wrong, so you're cutting yourself off from opposing viewpoints? Is that why you're afraid of arguing with me?

Western Civilization is welcoming Muslims? That's funny, here in South Florida alone, at Miami Airport, Hollywood Airport, and Ft.Lauderdale Airport, it is now legal to "RACIAL" profile. They are profiling terrorist by the clothes they wear, if they carry a Qur'an or any literature that looks Hebrew/Arabic script, skin color, facial features such as their beared and hair color... I can go on.

Muslims have no problem with Western Civilization other than the politicians and media. And even non-Muslims have a problem with this as well. Why? Because Western Civilization's excuse to use the label "terrorists" on Muslims is becaues of Bin Laden... when Bin Laden alone is the most hated person in the world, especially disliked by the Muslims because Bin Laden portrays himself as a man of God. When in reality... Bin Laden was a CIA tactician, and was paid to act like he's the one that caused everything. Self incriminating evidence, gotta love it.

Actually I do know the answer to Prophet Muhammad being a terrorist or not.. but I want to know what you honestly believe... you're still dodging my question. So c'mon answer this question, I promise I'm not gonna make personal attacks for your answer if you answer it wrong. So no... I'm not playing games with you, I just wanna know what's your point of view.
Here's a clue as to what I know of Prophet Muhammad, "SCREW" Jerry Falwell and everyone that believes in his deviance.

Obviously you brought up the article because it was intended for Islam for the fact being that this thread is generally about Islam and how it's the fastest growing religion right now... Anyone can read your first post and agree that you're mainly attacking Islam because of the topic at hand. Unless I'm crazy? I can easily read between the lines, that's a fact.

Muslims have respect for every person in this world, but I love watching Christians/Catholics debate religion with Muslims... I'd like not to explain why though, but you should watch them on youtube or even google has some of them.

Trust me I'm not wrong, I didn't even misunderstand your post or article... I just know exactly the move you pulled. People can do devilish activities with an angelic image... most people are too dumb to realize that, some know what the real intentions are and don't fall for the images given to their vision

[*kryogenix*]

I really don’t like misunderstanding of my intentions, It is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.in the same time I don't outbid on Islam , it doesn't need any preaching or missionary work or me.

It is unreasonable to think that so many American converted to Islam without careful consideration and deep contemplation. before concluding that Islam is true.

These Americans came from different classes, races and walks of life. They include scientists, professors, philosophers, journalists, doctors, nurses, teachers, artists, lawmakers, chefs, laborers, and every other sort of person imaginable.

Fallacy. If you want to count conversions, Christianity wins. It converted its oppressors, the Roman Empire.

Regarding the questionable marriages, back in the 7th century, Prophet Mohammed marraige was accepted by all religions and laws of that age.

The Jewish religion even says that a man can have intercourse with a girl that is 3 years and one day old [muslims dont beleive that, and the Jews probably dont implement this now]

Even up untill a hundred years ago, the offical age of consent for a girl was as young as the age of 10 in the USA.

It was reported in the British Media a few years ago, that a girl aged 9 became pregnant after having sex with a 10 year old girl, And many girls are being married around the age of 10 in many African countires [muslim and non muslim countries] . This proves that a girl can concieve at that age.

And if a girl is brought up according to Gods religion, then she is much more mature [mentaly and attitude wise] then a girl of the modern secualr era.

Also we have to take peoples life expectancy into consideration back in the 7th century, the life expectancy back then was a lot shorter then it is now thus it was natural for girls to be married as early as possible.
Islamic guide is for non-Muslims who would like to understand Islam
www.islam-guide.com
http://www.understanding-islam.com/

I'm a bit skeptical of this. It's rare enough for a girl that young, but for a girl to be impregnated by another young girl?

As for Mohammed's marriage to Aisha, maybe she was 9 but not prepubscent. I can believe that. However, it's still a bit odd for a much older man to do such a thing, as well as marry multiple women when, as far as I know, Jewish law barred that.

[*kryogenix*]

Western Civilization is welcoming Muslims? That's funny, here in South Florida alone, at Miami Airport, Hollywood Airport, and Ft.Lauderdale Airport, it is now legal to "RACIAL" profile. They are profiling terrorist by the clothes they wear, if they carry a Qur'an or any literature that looks Hebrew/Arabic script, skin color, facial features such as their beared and hair color... I can go on.

It makes sense, since the terrorists have been overwhelmingly Arab Muslims. Same reason why men have to pay more for car insurance, because men are more likely to cause accidents.

Now, let's check out the treatment of Non-Muslims in Islamic countries. They are treated as low class citizens, subjected to a tax and are shunned by society. And if a Muslim decides to convert to Christianity, they try to execute him. Look at numbers of how many Jews lived before around the 1940's. Now flash forward to 60 years of persecution, and look how many Jews live there. There is no comparison between the treatment of the Muslims in the West, and the treatment of Christians in the Middle East.

Muslims have no problem with Western Civilization other than the politicians and media. And even non-Muslims have a problem with this as well. Why? Because Western Civilization's excuse to use the label "terrorists" on Muslims is becaues of Bin Laden... when Bin Laden alone is the most hated person in the world, especially disliked by the Muslims because Bin Laden portrays himself as a man of God. When in reality... Bin Laden was a CIA tactician, and was paid to act like he's the one that caused everything. Self incriminating evidence, gotta love it.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all terrorists are Muslim, but you acknowledge that overwhelmingly, terrorist attacks against the West have been Muslim.

Actually I do know the answer to Prophet Muhammad being a terrorist or not.. but I want to know what you honestly believe... you're still dodging my question. So c'mon answer this question, I promise I'm not gonna make personal attacks for your answer if you answer it wrong. So no... I'm not playing games with you, I just wanna know what's your point of view.

No. My opinion is Mohammed is a false prophet and warlord. Definitely not a good man, but you can say he is not in the 21st century public image of a terrorist.

Here's a clue as to what I know of Prophet Muhammad, "SCREW" Jerry Falwell and everyone that believes in his deviance.

Obviously you brought up the article because it was intended for Islam for the fact being that this thread is generally about Islam and how it's the fastest growing religion right now... Anyone can read your first post and agree that you're mainly attacking Islam because of the topic at hand. Unless I'm crazy? I can easily read between the lines, that's a fact.

I call em as I sees em. He made a statement I believed as false, so I sent an explanation to the fallacy behind his statement. I wasn't attacking Islam in the post, I was attacking the point he was making, and nothing more. I'm attacking points as they are introduced.

Muslims have respect for every person in this world, but I love watching Christians/Catholics debate religion with Muslims... I'd like not to explain why though, but you should watch them on youtube or even google has some of them.

I don't like watching them, because many times, they Christians are forced to convert at gunpoint, or they are being beheaded.

However, in order to indulge you, I watched this video of Wafa Sultan in a debate on Al Jazeera:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ

Trust me I'm not wrong, I didn't even misunderstand your post or article... I just know exactly the move you pulled. People can do devilish activities with an angelic image... most people are too dumb to realize that, some know what the real intentions are and don't fall for the images given to their vision

Why do you claim to know me? You're coming off as a very pretentious person.

[illriginal]

Oh yeah.. I remember now, Islam is jealous of our freedom lol I can't believe I haven't bought that excuse/reason for them to attack America. I highly doubt there ever was "outside" terrorists that ever attacked America. Atcually I believe Nazi's history repeated on 9/11 with the agenda of needing a war, spreading democracy, and taking resources. Look up Corperations, Colonialism, and Imperialism... educate yourself and put the puzzle pieces together.

I'm done with this debate on this thread, but I will be more than happy to continue on the other thread.

[*kryogenix*]

Why? You can't respond to the points I make? Why are you introducing this "Islam is jealous of our freedom" stuff when I made no mention of the sort?

And stop telling me to educate myself. There is no need to be offensive when you debate, especially when you're wrong.

[illriginal]

You actually haven't proved me wrong yet... we just have a different belief system is all.

[*kryogenix*]

You actually haven't proved me wrong yet... we just have a different belief system is all.

Let's recap:

A fallacy? Prove it!

You hold no water on that prejudice post.

First, you thought the article was Anti-Islam. Then when I said it wasn't and demonstrated that it actually mentions Christian denominations, you change your story to:

Obviously you brought up the article because it was intended for Islam

You clearly didn't read the article, because it doesn't contain the word Islam or Muslim even once.

Tell me, how can you argue against something when you didn't even bother to read the points I was trying to make?

And yet you still claim:

Trust me I'm not wrong, I didn't even misunderstand your post or article

You're looking pretty wrong to me.

Next, you purport that the Middle East is more tolerant than the West.

Western Civilization is welcoming Muslims?... Muslims have no problem with Western Civilization other than the politicians and media... Muslims have respect for every person in this world.

Tell me who is more fair. You claim the West is unfair for simply questioning Muslims more frequently than non Muslims. However, I bring up the fact that it is part of Muslim law to give dhimmi status to non Muslims and to impose a jizya and karaj on them. Which is more fair, questioning Muslims (let's forget that most recent terrorist attacks against us have been carried out by Arab Muslims), or taxing Non Muslims. To me, if I'm innocent, I'd rather answer questions than have to pay extra taxes and be treated like a lower class citizen.

Next, you try to throw up a smokescreen by making a bunch of claims that have no backup (Quran is flawless, Bin Laden works for CIA, etc.) and you put words in my mouth (Islam is jealous of our freedom) and make countless assumptions of my knowledge of Islam. And that's just in this thread.

Sorry, you're wrong. QED.

[HearrrtBreakerrr]

Go kryogenix! lol just had to say that. i didnt want to take a whole hour to read everything and write a thoughtful reply.

[illriginal]

Negative I'm not wrong... you cannot understand the concept, your mind is set differently, which is not your fault but the people before you. I would keep debating with you, but your intellect is laughable, in my point of view. You're thinkin like a typical person from America/Canada/Europe...

If some Muslims on this thread were ballsy enough, they would share my same view., The problem is you're pickin out all the negativity of so-called true Muslims and the so-called faith of Islam... when in fact you're using false resources for your knowledge. LIke I said I would keep going, but I see where this is going.. you already believe you know more than me when it comes to Islam but the problem is, you only know what "they" have told you. You made claim about you knowing people from Islam... so what? Do they truely know Islam? I find that questionable. Your knowledge on Islam is just as bad as CNN or Foxnews tellin us the so-called facts of the War against terrorism.

Try again... this time get a real perspective on Islam instead of using ignorant education to debate with me.

[*kryogenix*]

Negative I'm not wrong... you cannot understand the concept, your mind is set differently, which is not your fault but the people before you. I would keep debating with you, but your intellect is laughable, in my point of view. You're thinkin like a typical person from America/Canada/Europe...

Except I'm an Asian American with blood from a country that has a considerable Muslim population. You need to stop making assumptions about me (didn't you learn not to make assumptions when you thought Burial Gown was a white boy?).

If some Muslims on this thread were ballsy enough, they would share my same view., The problem is you're pickin out all the negativity of so-called true Muslims and the so-called faith of Islam... when in fact you're using false resources for your knowledge.

Aren't you doing the same for Christianity? And yes, of course my resources are false, because I'm using Muslim law as my resource. I am referencing Sharia, Dar al Islam, dhimmi status and karaj. So I suppose you admit that it is false, so I'm expecting you to convert in the near future.

LIke I said I would keep going, but I see where this is going.. you already believe you know more than me when it comes to Islam but the problem is, you only know what "they" have told you. You made claim about you knowing people from Islam... so what? Do they truely know Islam? I find that questionable. Your knowledge on Islam is just as bad as CNN or Foxnews tellin us the so-called facts of the War against terrorism.

I don't claim to know more than you. I claim to know more than you think I know. There's a difference. The former would have been arrogance on my part, the latter, which is the case we are dealing with, is arrogance on your part.

Try again... this time get a real perspective on Islam instead of using ignorant education to debate with me.

And to this point, you haven't even debunked a thing.

[NoSex]

And to this point, you haven't even debunked a thing.

Kryo's right.

You havn't made a single sound argument or meaningful rebuttle. In fact, I don't think you have made one anywhere on these forums. All of your arguments consist of straw men, misinformation, fallacies, and just a complete and offensive unwillingness to listen and debate accordingly.

Unless you are willing to at least try to answer people's questions, repond to people's rebuttles, justify your positions, and recognize the opposition seriously, I suggest you abandon these forums. Telling people that they are brainwashed(1), suggesting that people can not understand because they are not "worthy"(2), never citing your sources - but linking your arguments, resorting to ad hominem consistently, never really addressing people's arguments, and telling us you have secret knowledge is not convincing(3).

I highly suggest you do some work in learning to properly debate, form an argument, justify that argument, and refute the opposition's rebuttles. Take some lessons in logic, and try some variety of philosophy. You keep suggesting that everyone else needs lessons in such studies, but you yourself seem less proficient and less learned that anyone else here. I'm saying this because you're derailing topics and wasting a lot of our time. You are just not cooperating in a healthy manner, whatsoever.

To a degree, some of these actions may be tolerable, but that you have demonstrated, time and again, that you are just unwilling or incapable of respecting the order of debate, it is highly intolerable. Maybe if you had gained some credibility you could get away with some of this, but at your position, telling someone that they are brainwashed is just a blatant and meaningless argument from insult.

You aren't addressing anyone's arguments, you're just making assumptions about the person's positing the arguments. That isn't how you prove a point, and that certaintly is not how one should go about debating. If you want to refute someones calims, you actually have to talk about their claims. You actually have to identify exactly why their claims are incorrect, by forming an argument or citing relavent facts. You have to talk about their argument, not about them.

I couldn't disprove your theories on 9/11 just by calling you a "left-wing conspiracy nut-job" and saying that your claims have "already been debunked numerous times". Just as you can't disprove my rebuttles by calling me a "neo con, right-winger" and saying that my answers have already been "taken care of." I actually have to say why your theories are wrong, I would actually have to go the length to debunk them, not just say that they had been debunked. And, you would actually have to answer my questions and refut my rebuttles. You would actually have to say why my answers are not adequate, not just say that they are and expect me to believe you.

I'm trying to help you here. If you refuse to shape up and take some advice, I'm going to have to give you a warning. Please, respect your opposition and recognize them. Spend time to form your arguments and think them through. Respond to the opposition's rebuttles and questions. Thank you.

[*Zatanna*]

I would keep debating with you, but your intellect is laughable, in my point of view. You're thinkin like a typical person from America/Canada/Europe...

Try again... this time get a real perspective on Islam instead of using ignorant education to debate with me.

For goodnes sake! Please please please try to be civil.
I've already mentioned the rules and replied to this type of response here:
Here's part of that response:

Re-read (or read for the first time the rules of this forum):
Rules of the Debate- Please READ, READ FIRST
While you're at it, read through the "general forum guidelines, please read" thread as well. You won't be given a pop quiz, but you will be expected to follow the rules.
Any more comments like that and I'll have to give you a verbal warning. I'm sorry.

In looking at the time you posted, you haven't yet read my responses. The next time you post in that type of manner after you had a chance to read these responses, you are getting warned. I think we've all been more than fair at this point.

[ric22]

Although there’s no relation between Islam and terrorisms, intelligence agents believe Osama bin Laden died of typhoid, according to a French intelligence report leaked to a newspaper, Saturday Sept. 23, 2006.

[*kryogenix*]

I think the report's been denied already.

and, http://typhoidobl.ytmnd.com

[ric22]

I really don’t like misunderstanding of my intentions in this post .It is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion. It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.

We cay say there are so many sects, cults, religions, philosophies, and movements in the world, all of which claim to be the right way or the only true path to God. How can one determine which one is correct or if, in fact, all are correct? The method by which the answer can be found is to clear away the superficial differences in the teachings of the various claimants to the ultimate truth, and identify the central object of worship to which they call, directly or indirectly. Can we either claim that all men are Gods or that specific men were God or that nature is God or that God is a figment of man's imagination.

It may be argued that all religions teach good things so why should it matter which one we follow. I made some searching and I couldn’t find a sharp answer but I found something interesting stated in the Koran:
Creation-worship is the greatest sin that man can commit because it contradicts the very purpose of his creation. Man was created to worship Allah alone, consequently, the worship of creation, which is the essence of idolatry, is the only unforgivable sin. One who dies in this state of idolatry has sealed his fate in the next life. This is not an opinion, but a revealed fact stated by Allah in his final revelation to man

"Verily Allah will not forgive the joining of partners with Him, but He may forgive (sins) less than that for whom so ever He wishes"(Soorah An- Nisaa 4:48 and 116)

Buddha was a reformer who introduced a number of humanistic principles to the religion of India. He did not claim to be God nor did he suggest to his followers that he be an object of worship. Yet, today most Buddhists who are to be found outside of India have taken him to be God and prostrate to idols made in their perception of his likeness.

God revealed a holy book to Jesus called the Injeel, some parts of which may be still available in the teachings of God to Jesus in the New Testament. But this does not mean that the Bible we have today because it is not the original scriptures that were revealed by God. They underwent alterations, additions, and omissions. This was also said by the Committee charged with revising The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version). This Committee consisted of thirty-two scholars who served as members of the Committee. They secured the review and counsel of an Advisory Board of fifty representatives of the co-operating denominations.

The Committee said in the Preface to The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version), p. iv, “Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text.

The Committee also said in the Preface, p. vii, Notes are added which indicate significant variations, additions, or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt 9.34; Mk 3.16; 7.4; Lk 24.32, 51, etc.).

My question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:


THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html

Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/jesus.asp

IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/

The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/Jesus/inIslam.asp

Christ in Islam
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Christ.htm

Mary & Jesus in Quran
http://www.islamworld.net/

Is Jesus the Same as God?
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Samegod.htm

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10-1.htm

Jesus Will Descend at the End of Time
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=77

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/wchristian.html

http://www.jamaat.net/letters.htm

The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran:

http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm
http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

[ric22]

Guy's! I ask of you no reward for this (Message). My reward is from none : will ye not then understand?

I only desire (your) betterment to the best of my power; and my success (in my task) can only come from God



Quran

No 39 Az-Zumar
Surah AL-Zumar

41/39] Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul: but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

[42/39] It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

[43/39] What! do they take for intercessors others besides Allah? Say: "Even if they have no power whatever and no intelligence?"

[44/39] Say: "To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) Intercession: to Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: in the End, it is to Him that ye shall be brought back."

[45] When Allah the One and Only, is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are filled with disgust and horror; but when (gods) other than He are mentioned, behold they are filled with joy!

[46/39] Say: "O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! it is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed."

[47/39] Even if the wrong-doers had all that there is on earth, and as much more, (in vain) would they offer it for ransom from the pain of the Penalty on the Day of Judgment: but something will confront them from Allah, which they could never have counted upon!

[48/39] For the evils of their Deeds will confront them, and they will be (completely) encircled by that which they used to mock at!

[49/39] Now, when trouble touches man, he cries to Us; but when We bestow a favour upon him as from Ourselves, he says, "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge (I have)!" nay, but this is but a trial, but most of them understand not!

[50/39] Thus did the (generations) before them say! but all that they did was of no profit to them.

[51/39] Nay, the evil results of their deeds overtook them. And the wrong-doers of this (generation), the evil results of their deeds will soon overtake them (too), and they will never be able to frustrate (Our Plan)!

[52/39] Know they not that Allah enlarges the provision or restricts it, for any He pleases? Verily, in this are Signs for those who believe!

[53/39] Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[54/39] "Turn ye to your Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.

55/39] "And follow the Best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not! -

[56/39] "Lest the soul should (then) say: `Ah! woe is me! in that I neglected (my Duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'

[57/39] "Or (lest) it should say: 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'

[58/39] "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the Penalty: 'If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'

[59/39] "(The reply will be:) 'Nay, but there came to thee My Signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith!'"