bible/religion as fact Options

[*Statues/Shadows*]

In nearly every debate, people always seem to insist on using "I believe this because of my religion" or "it's in the bible."

However, are these actual valid foundations for debate?

[*I Shot JFK*]

no. just because it is fashionable to exalt faith over reason doesnt make it logical or inteligent.

not listening to reason doesnt make you faithful. it makes you an idiot.

people are certainly entitled to have opinions based on their religion, but it is not valid to use such logic in the face of factual or legislative debate, as seen in debate over gay marriage. the idea (not fact) that your god may not care for homosexuality is NOT a valid grounds for denying that right to people who do not believe in said god.

[AngelinaTaylor]

It's not factual.. It's good for morals and everything, but the context (most of it) isn't accurate.

I know I'll get shit for this, but you should know - I've studied it for quite a while.

[smoke]

^I agree. I don't think it's a good idea to use in debate because people make reference to things that haven't been proven yet, however, numerous historical accounts in the bible have been proven. It's still used in schools and studies as a historical text because of that.

I've also studied it for quite some time.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^I agree. I don't think it's a good idea to use in debate because people make reference to things that haven't been proven yet, however, numerous historical accounts in the bible have been proven. It's still used in schools and studies as a historical text because of that.

I've also studied it for quite some time.

well yes, but the authenticity still doesnt make it a great source for debate, as it provides little reasoning behind its statementsm other than, obviously, christian/jewish tradition and beliefs.

just becaues there are authentic portions of any text, religious or not, doesnt lend the content any weight, particularly. it is still arguing from the basis of opinion.

[smoke]

^ Right, that's what I said. Usually the things that have been proven are used in schools and studies, but I don't think there's a place for it in debate because most people use is vaguely without any reason beside the fact that "It's what I believe," etc. They seem to think that just because some things are proven that the entire book is proven.

[*I Shot JFK*]

i know thats what you said, i was reinforcing.

although i would reconsider the idea that things that are proven are used in schools... especially pre-college.

and, for the record, i'll join the 'have studied christianity culb'

[ChaosPunx]

Some things that happened in the past where recorded in the bible sure im not saying i believe in it.(ive read the whole thing do you know how boring it is?) anyways my sister prayed to god before we went to a concert asking to met someone famous and we did =| made me think... anyways alot of the stuff isnt true and alot of people base everything on it sometimes it gets a little annoying. Religon Basically is something that tells people from right and wrong.

[demolished]

It's kind of stupid.

debating is about using evidences, logical reasoning, and reasoning. not some bible.

[*Libertie*]

As someone who was raised in a Christian home, I have studied the Bible and I'm not completely moronic when it comes to this topic, so I'll say that before the whole "You haven't read it!" torpedoes come flying in my direction.

The thing about the Bible is that to Christians, it is solid fact, truth, whatever. However, not everyone is a Christian, yes? Therefore, not everyone holds Biblical scripture as a valid truth. Not only that, but the reason the Bible is regarded as fact to so many people is largely based on faith, believing that it's true. Because of this, I simply cannot take anyone seriously who tries to throw scripture at me in a debate. I end up feeling like they're throwing morals at me rather than fact.

I do understand that some parts of the Bible have been proven, and if that's the case, it's probably okay to use. I won't go into detail of what's okay to use in a debate and what's not, I'll just say this: when using any source, you have to consider whether it proves something or if it just expresses a strong opinion. For some people, it can be hard to tell the difference.

[timeflies51]

If you took the Bible away, there would be nothing to support any Christian argument.

[NoSex]

If you took the Bible away, there would be nothing to support any Christian argument.

That's where you're wrong.
Many famous theologians, specifically natural theologists, have created numerous arguments in support of christiany, and have written volumes on the subject, without ever using biblical scripture as a premise. Most notably, of these men, was Saint Thomas Aquinas.

However, more seriously, you are mistaken in assuming that the Bible alone, in any way, supports a Christian argument. It doesn't. The Bible, itself, does, in no way, work as proof towards the supposed reality of Christianity. That is a logical fallacy, and a mere argument from authority.

Simply because the Bible says it will never make it so, whether it is indeed true or not.

[*Uronacid*]

I believe that most of the arguments brought up in the debate section are a moral issue. Because many people use their religion as a base for their moral values, the Bible/God/Jesus will come up quite often.

I think that the debate section is great. It lets you see how people think, and why they think that way. You have obviously come to the conclusion that you don't like people makeing their descitions base on their religion. Well, it's too bad... when you believe in a religion it effects your life, and the descitions you make.

I'm not offended XD

[cassjamminx]

some things i just think people.. made up for the religion. and catholics are expected to believe it. i don't.. really. when you think about it, there are no real proofs. soo.. i believe what i believe. i believe in God, but not necissarily all the stories and stuff.

[promenade]

What I think is that morality is how you choose to live your life. It's what you feel is right (and other people might not have the same views on morality as you do), and the Bible preaches about this morality. It is what the creators believe is the correct way to live your life. While it might be historically correct, what is stated in the book is pure opinion. Because it is opinion, it is not reliable as a source in debate, because it's what someone thinks about how to live their life.

Does that make sense?

[*yrrnotelekktric*]

some things i just think people.. made up for the religion. and catholics are expected to believe it. i don't.. really. when you think about it, there are no real proofs. soo.. i believe what i believe. i believe in God, but not necissarily all the stories and stuff.

yeah, totally.

[bobby james]

Some stuff in the Bible is fact or better yet will be fact, some is just opinion, it depends on what you are talking about. I am very two-sided on almost everything. As far as moral goes, yes, even though I do not follow some

If you look at it and it's teaching about morals, then it makes a lot of sense. The more society has let go of it's religous morals the more corrupt it has become. Those things were put there for a reason. Now some of the stories and stuff in there have me looking like this But in the end of the day, I just never know.

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ yes, because there was NOTHING corrupt at all about the crusades or witch burning... let's go back to that! yay!

[bobby james]

^ yes, because there was NOTHING corrupt at all about the crusades or witch burning... let's go back to that! yay!

I didn't say there wasn't

[illriginal]

The Qur'an is more authentic than the Bible... and Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qur'an as well. Plus the Bible is one big book of contradictions anyways, where as the Qur'an has no flaws.

[*digital.fragrance*]

^ How does the Bible have contradictions?

Sure, it's never good to say, "I believe it cuz it's in the Bible!" Sure, Christians will accept it, but no one else will. If you are going to say anything, back it up with something other than that.

[illriginal]

I know religion is a very sensitive subject... but the New Testament is actually quite disgusting, in my opinion. Then again it was the Romans who scripted the final "draft" of their belief system into Christianity. Why do you think Christians faught Christians? Sure wasn't because of race or over land... it was the belief system.

But if you want that proof... give me a bit I'll show ya :)


Here's a little something people should take a look at:



http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...9&q=naik+zakir

Its not one sided but there's a christian speaker vs muslim speaker. without crucifixtion there's no christianity.


I read in a article that many christians/non-muslims converted into Islam due to this muslim speaker named Zakir Naik.

[*digital.fragrance*]

Sure, go for it.

[illriginal]

Also if you haven't studied the Egyptian belief system... or atleast Osiris, here's some information you should learn: Keep in mind that the Romans gain their belief system from the Egyptians... physical proof on that is the fact that one side of their coins had a mithra on it whie the other side had the face of their leader.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm
http://www.ra-horakhty.co.uk/Esoteri...afterlife1.htm
http://www.ra-horakhty.co.uk/magic/p...surrection.htm
http://www.frontline-apologetics.com...boutosiris.htm



Oh and please do look at this specific link: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep.../christian.htm




If Jesus wasn't crucified, what really did happen?

Question: All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.

Answer:

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation [posed in the question] is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."

Source: http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e74.html

[*kryogenix*]

The Qur'an is more authentic than the Bible... and Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qur'an as well. Plus the Bible is one big book of contradictions anyways, where as the Qur'an has no flaws.

Why is Jesus a well respected prophet of Islam when he someone who is apparently misguided and even a blasphemer for saying he is God?

Point out contradictions, I'll debunk them. Do it in a seperate thread. All I ask is that you use a real Bible and look up the contradictions yourself, rather than cut and paste. Cause I'll know.

[*digital.fragrance*]

^ I was about to ask for the specific references for the contradictions.

[illriginal]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/pau...radictions.html

Well take a good look at this link... and debunk it please.


And Jesus himself didn't claim to be God... The Romans did, they changed the image of Christ and put words in his mouth. Jesus is the Messiah no matter what, but the Romans tricked the people into believing the only way to be saved is to put your faith in Jesus Christ instead of God.

It was a very clever move what the Romans did.

God is Lord... Jesus is the Messiah, not God nor Lord.

Oh I made another thread, and put up another link... I hope you prove there's no contradictions... even one contradiction proves the bible to not be authentic.

[*digital.fragrance*]

So many of those verses are taken out of context. When you look at the Gospels, you have to realize that they were each written for 4 different audiences, which changes the cultural focuses for each. SO just because on Gospel has it, and the others don't, doesn't mean it's not true.

As for female geneologies, there are some. My mother has one hanging up on her wall. And Mary is a descedent of David.

I find it odd that the Romans would change something like that, considering the fact that they were persecuting the church.

[illriginal]

Wasn't it the Romans who had a court system who rebuilt the Bible by taking out "chapters and scriptures" of all sorts to fit their government? Or is my information incorrect?

And having idols, pictures/drawings, engravings, etc... of God and his creations such as heaven, angels, prophets, etc... is a sin. Why do Christians have crosses, pictures of jesus, pictures of prophets and their followers, why do they have pictures of mary? Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Why do they pray to idols such as pictures, crosses, and statues?

Why do Christians believe in confessions? Or atleast the Catholics do. Is it not a sin to confess your sins to anyone or anything for that matter but God? Jesus CANNOT change the laws of God. God does not give Jesus that privilaige. If God did... prove it.

Also why do Christians believe in these new prophets... supposedly there's these couple of men claiming to be prophets and they preach to thousands of Christians. God closed the seal of prophet hood... so what's the deal?

Jesus was given a test, a test to prove that he was worthy enough to become the Messiah. He passed the test, he defeated temptations over and over.


Also... unlike the Qur'an which you can take literally... the Bible has random scriptures where you take literal and many times not taken literal... what's with the mind games?

[*kryogenix*]

ROFL. You don't know how to read. Go look up those contradictions again yourself. Weed out the ones that are taken competely out of context, and then post the ones that remain. If I wanted, I could find websites with contradictions in the Quran, but I won't.

And having idols, pictures/drawings, engravings, etc... of God and his creations such as heaven, angels, prophets, etc... is a sin. Why do Christians have crosses, pictures of jesus, pictures of prophets and their followers, why do they have pictures of mary? Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Why do they pray to idols such as pictures, crosses, and statues?

First of all, depictions of God and heavenly dwellers is not a sin. I don't know where you're getting this from.

Secondly, Catholics do not worship Mary. Never have, never will. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. Read a list of intercessions, you will see that any request made to God will be followed by "Hear our prayer," while any request made to Mary or the Saints will be followed by "Pray for us."

Third, Catholics do not worship idols. Statues and pictures are just representations of what they are. The reason there is a commandment against idols is that for the ancient Hebrews, the common pagan practice were to worship stone idols of false Gods. The objection is against worshipping false Gods, not representations of God.

[illriginal]

Secondly, Catholics do not worship Mary. Never have, never will. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. Read a list of intercessions, you will see that any request made to God will be followed by "Hear our prayer," while any request made to Mary or the Saints will be followed by "Pray for us."

Third, Catholics do not worship idols. Statues and pictures are just representations of what they are. The reason there is a commandment against idols is that for the ancient Hebrews, the common pagan practice were to worship stone idols of false Gods. The objection is against worshipping false Gods, not representations of God.

You better re-read your 10 commandments.

Praying to anyone or anything for that matter other than God is a sin... that's paganism. That's something the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians did.

God has no partners, so askin from Jesus or Mary is still blasphemy.

That's funny cuz I see catholics bowing in front of a statue of Christ or John the Baptist, or even Mary, and they pray. Putting your trust or belief onto anything but the Spirit of God is a sin...

And how about confessing your sins to another human being? That's a sin as well, no one is to know of your sins by confession. Only God is worthy to receive your confessions.

[*kryogenix*]

You better re-read your 10 commandments.

Praying to anyone or anything for that matter other than God is a sin... that's paganism. That's something the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians did.

This is one of the most commonly used anti-Catholic arguements.

Yes, the worship of anyone or anything other than God is a sin. However, that is not what Catholics do. I explained already that it is asking the saints to intercede on our behalf. It is NOT worshipping them. Think of it this way, would you rather pray on your own, or have someone who is very close to God pray for you along with you?

God has no partners, so askin from Jesus or Mary is still blasphemy.

That's funny cuz I see catholics bowing in front of a statue of Christ or John the Baptist, or even Mary, and they pray. Putting your trust or belief onto anything but the Spirit of God is a sin...

Jesus is God, so how is it blasphemy? And as I explained in my other post (you don't seem to like reading and understanding do you?), we do not worship Mary, so there is no sin here. It is like asking someone else to help you pray, there is no sin here.

Go read a Cathecism (you probably won't) and you'll see it's all in there.

And how about confessing your sins to another human being? That's a sin as well, no one is to know of your sins by confession. Only God is worthy to receive your confessions.

Whoa. I had no idea that Muslims were not allowed to confess things they've done wrong to humans. Is that why terrorists won't plead guilty even in the face of overwhelming evidence?

You have to understand that Catholicism is the Church that Christ himself started. Jesus himself appointed the apostles as the first priests, who were given the mission by God to bestow his grace by forgiving sins.

[*Zatanna*]

I have to run out for an interview, but I really felt a need to touch upon one thing that is being said here.

Praying to anyone or anything for that matter other than God is a sin... that's paganism. That's something the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians did.

God has no partners, so askin from Jesus or Mary is still blasphemy.

I thought that one of the virtues of being a believe in God is the idea of acceptance and love, regardless of beliefs (or disbeliefs). If that is the case, then aren't you a sinner as well?

Also, do you know the roots of Paganism? Many Pagans practice a nature-based idea of living and being. It's about being at peace with the world, and its inhabitants. It is absolutely not always synonymous with devil worship or anything of the like. That is a misconception caused by the phenomenon of social colloquiums.

Not everything you read should be taken as definitive truth, especially if you are basing your truth on that which you find on the internet. There is bias and interpretation everywhere, including the bible (which has many translations and revisions).

[illriginal]

This is one of the most commonly used anti-Catholic arguements.

Yes, the worship of anyone or anything other than God is a sin. However, that is not what Catholics do. I explained already that it is asking the saints to intercede on our behalf. It is NOT worshipping them. Think of it this way, would you rather pray on your own, or have someone who is very close to God pray for you along with you?
Jesus is God, so how is it blasphemy? And as I explained in my other post (you don't seem to like reading and understanding do you?), we do not worship Mary, so there is no sin here. It is like asking someone else to help you pray, there is no sin here.



God has no partners... you don't need to ask for saints to help you pray to God, that's just laughable. So wait you're tellin me that Catholics are actually spiritually weak, right? Since they cannot make a strong spiritual bond with God, even when they pray? They need the help of saints in order to pray? Well that sucks, in my opinion.

In my case, I pray 5 times... that alone covers any little sin I commit through out the day. I don't ask for saints or angels or prophets to help me make a connection with God in order to have my prayers heard.

Jesus is not God, not in my religion. He's the Messiah, the savior of the human race. Doesn't mean we have to pray to Jesus nor call him Lord. In my religion, what saves you is:
Believing in God, knowin God has no partner, believing that Prophet Muhammad is his slave and his prophet, and that Jesus the son of virgin Mary is God's slave/prophet and also the Messiah. Believe that there's heaven and hell, and live by the Laws of God, meaning no commiting of sins.

Jesus cannot change the Laws of God, only God can change those Laws. The New Testament was modified by the Romans. In fact Jesus was never crucified, there's no proof of it. Jesus never died and raised again. That's what the Egyptians claimed with their Gods... The Roman version of Jesus or shall I say the new/modern age Christians believe the same exact stories of the Egyptian Gods. Don't believe that? Look up the relevance in Osiris and Jesus.

Romans believed in the Egyptian Gods as well... how can you sit here and honestly believe that the Romans who were disgusting to begin with, no where near the men or nation of God
could have not touched the facts of Christianity. The Romans destroyed the image of Jesus and destroyed his message, then recreated him for their personal agenda in Imperialism... the truth hurts, some people can't handle the truth so they purposely stay ignorant and laugh at what God has revealed to them.

Why do you think Christianity is so popular to begin with? Christianity would have not been soo popular if they didn't divide and conquer. Murdering, raping, stealing, and force converting was part of the Roman and Spaniard agenda in order to control the people with their governance. Wait you do know that there was a time where Christians were killin off Christians right? Where a blasephemous "so-called" sect of Christianity could not let the truth be told, and they would do anything to destroy the truth. They succeeded in the most part, but guess what? There's actually a part of the world that holds the truth of Christianity... that's in Jordan. Those Christians there do not have the same Western Civilzation's version of the NT... they have authentic version


Go read a Cathecism (you probably won't) and you'll see it's all in there.
Whoa. I had no idea that Muslims were not allowed to confess things they've done wrong to humans. Is that why terrorists won't plead guilty even in the face of overwhelming evidence?

You should know that I myself have already studied the OT and the NT, in fact I also read the Torah. It is not permissible to confess your sins to another human being or an object. In the NT, the best arguement Christians use is that the followers of Jesus would confess to him and the other followers lol... that's a lie but then again modern day Christians would believe anything
Why would I ever respect the Catholic religion? Read the OT, find the answer there. Stop using Jesus and the saints and whatever else is in the NT to argue the point. It doesn't hold a drop of water.

No human can truely forgive a sin, no human has that authority. You can forgive someone for hurting you, or stealing from you, but you cannot forgive their "SIN" Sin that their spirit has commited, how can a human forgive a spirit? They can't... they can't make that connection, only God can.

You have to understand that Catholicism is the Church that Christ himself started. Jesus himself appointed the apostles as the first priests, who were given the mission by God to bestow his grace by forgiving sins.

I smell Egyptian ritual here... sorry, doesn't hold water either.

By the way, did you know baptising is also an Egyptian ritual? To clense their sins away and start fresh again lol

Muslims don't have any rituals, everything is about one self and God only.

[Nymphetamine]

I just read the whole Qu'ran and Bible argument and honestly (from an Agnostic point of view) the Qu'ran is CRAP. I do not want to delibrately offend anyone but facts speak for themselves.

I highly cannot tolerate Muslims. I don't give a shit about discrimination/Relgionism shit, Islam is a religion that should be banned.

DON'T even try looking up sources that could convert me or whatever, I hate Islam and dislike EVERYTHING that is associated to it.

Call me ignorant, call me stupid, call me whatever. I don't care. I just decided to give my opinion because Tamacraker's posts DISGUST me. If you must know, I don't care about other Religions but Islam bugs the shit out of me. I am sorry but I was brought up to think like this and I will not change. Yes, I might be ignorant but SO WHAT? I don't give a shit. Mohammed this, Mohammed that, all = crap.

I'll stop because I'm getting really angry. Yes, I was brought up in a very racist / discriminating home.

Anyways, to answer Nikki's question, I also think it's stupid but then again, sometimes, it's logical.

[illriginal]

I have to run out for an interview, but I really felt a need to touch upon one thing that is being said here.
I thought that one of the virtues of being a believe in God is the idea of acceptance and love, regardless of beliefs (or disbeliefs). If that is the case, then aren't you a sinner as well?


Not exactly, if you've studied the OT... you will learn that even Moses himself killed infidels/kafirs or in other words disbelievers. That's the other problem with Christianity, they destroyed the true message of God and Jesus, simply making Christians weaker and tooo forgiving. If someone killed my mother in front of me, I would attempt to kill them... I would not forgive them. A Christian on the other hand is very easy to oppress, God frowns upon oppressors but also those who believe God wants them to not fight back.



Also, do you know the roots of Paganism? Many Pagans practice a nature-based idea of living and being. It's about being at peace with the world, and its inhabitants. It is absolutely not always synonymous with devil worship or anything of the like. That is a misconception caused by the phenomenon of social colloquiums.


Not believing in one God but multpile Gods, is paganism. Not believing in a God to begin with is also paganism. Oh and Egyptians were pagans... specially with the fact they they claimed to have many different Gods of all elements and animals etc.. also they were into mysticism and alchemy, in order to prove they were some sort of powerful God. So I guess back then, if Albert Einstein traveled to the past, he would have been God of all Gods? I dunno.
But paganism has nothin to do with worshipping satan, atleast thinkin you're worshipping satan.


This is my proper understanding of Paganism from Wikipedia

Not everything you read should be taken as definitive truth, especially if you are basing your truth on that which you find on the internet. There is bias and interpretation everywhere, including the bible (which has many translations and revisions).

I don't really use the internet for my information, I use the OT, NT, Torah, Kabbalah, Qur'an, Talmud, Astrology (not hororscopes), Tibetan and Egyptian Book Of The Dead, Book of Maccabees, Book of Judas, Book of Malachi, Christology, Metaphysics, Philosophy, History of The Mesopotamian, The Book Of Chakra, etc...

These are all recommended for important true knowledge... there's many more other books out there of course.

I just read the whole Qu'ran and Bible argument and honestly (from an Agnostic point of view) the Qu'ran is CRAP. I do not want to delibrately offend anyone but facts speak for themselves.

I highly cannot tolerate Muslims. I don't give a shit about discrimination/Relgionism shit, Islam is a religion that should be banned.

DON'T even try looking up sources that could convert me or whatever, I hate Islam and dislike EVERYTHING that is associated to it.

Call me ignorant, call me stupid, call me whatever. I don't care. I just decided to give my opinion because Tamacraker's posts DISGUST me. If you must know, I don't care about other Religions but Islam bugs the shit out of me. I am sorry but I was brought up to think like this and I will not change. Yes, I might be ignorant but SO WHAT? I don't give a shit. Mohammed this, Mohammed that, all = crap.

I'll stop because I'm getting really angry. Yes, I was brought up in a very racist / discriminating home.

Anyways, to answer Nikki's question, I also think it's stupid but then again, sometimes, it's logical.

The Muslim religion will prevail, love it or hate it
Infidels can never understand the truth of reality. And you're admitting to all of us about your racism is enough for me to only laugh and think of you as a disgrace to the human race.

By the way, can you prove that the Qur'an is truely CRAP? As you say? Or is your racism and hateful heart and mind only stays blind to the facts and only spew out ignorant hatred?

[Nymphetamine]

Hahaha. If I am a disgrace to the 'human race' then what are you? (Muslims)? Haha. Anyways, I'm going to let you go kill more people. Also good luck in killing yourselves! Sucide bomb is the bomb!

[illriginal]

Hahaha. If I am a disgrace to the 'human race' then what are you? (Muslims)? Haha. Anyways, I'm going to let you go kill more people. Also good luck in killing yourselves! Sucide bomb is the bomb!

Good job, reported.

[Nymphetamine]

You're welcome. I don't give a shit. *begs* Please don't kill me.

[*Zatanna*]

I don't really use the internet for my information, I use the OT, NT, Torah, Kabbalah, Qur'an, Talmud, Astrology (not hororscopes), Tibetan and Egyptian Book Of The Dead, Book of Maccabees, Book of Judas, Book of Malachi, Christology, Metaphysics, Philosophy, History of The Mesopotamian, The Book Of Chakra, etc...

These are all recommended for important true knowledge... there's many more other books out there of course.

Ah yes, but yet the resources your provided in a certain post that I helped restore contained nothing but internet links. Hence my response to that particular matter.

The Muslim religion will prevail, love it or hate it
Infidels can never understand the truth of reality. And you're admitting to all of us about your racism is enough for me to only laugh and think of you as a disgrace to the human race.

By the way, such a dogmatic approach in life really won't help you in your cause to enlighten others. I do not believe that forcing one's beliefs (by indicating that those outside of your faith are a "disgrace") is the way your God would like people to be regarded. I also got the impression that Muhammad's intent wasn't as such.

And it it's wikipedia you are using, here's something interesting for you and your audience, courtesy of the all mighty wiki:

He did not reject Judaism and Christianity, two other monotheistic faiths known to the Arabs, but said that he had been sent by God in order to complete and perfect those teachings.

Doesn't sound like too awful of an approach, if you ask me. (Which you didn't, but c'est la vie)

Now listen and listen good. We all have different beliefs about God, religion, the world, etc. I do not speak ill of you because of how you believe or live, I would expect the same courtesy and respect. I honestly think that it is great that you are so passionate about your faith, I really do. But again, it isn't right to persecute others for not being a Muslim or subscribing to the teachings you are referring to. I wouldn't treat you that way, in fact, as you very well know, I defended the knowledge you so desperately wanted to share.

[Nymphetamine]

Zatanna you're just too good. One of the things that made me REALLY mad was his 'persuasion'. I HATE that. I don't go up to Muslims and insult them, of course not. I just detest EVERYTHING about Tamacracker, his signature, the fact that he's always on the defensive. He's always Trying to convert people.

What made me mad was also his statement about Christianity.

Tamacracker, thanks for making me detest Muslims and Islam even more!

[illriginal]

I'm not telling anyone to convert to Islam... I'm just pointing out the mistakes made within Christianity in general. No one has to believe it, that's up to them. But no way am I saying, hey convert to Islam now, because it's better than every other religion.

But my posts are up there, let it be taken any which way people would like.


And Born in a burial grown... trust me you can hate all the races, religions, and cultures in the world, it's not my life, nor my soul on the line.

"Always trying to convert people" LOL

And it it's wikipedia you are using, here's something interesting for you and your audience, courtesy of the all mighty wiki:

Ah I see what you mean, some of that information is even incorrect in that wiki page.

Well would you like to give me your definition of Paganism? And have a source to back it up if possible? I wouldn't mind getting another perspective of Paganism.

[*Zatanna*]

I can give a few:
from dictionary.com

pa‧gan  /ˈpeɪgən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-guhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
–adjective
4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
6. irreligious or hedonistic.

From Dictionary of Terms and Tools used by various Pagans

Pagan: Followers of a nature-based religion.

From good ol' wikipedia:

The term pagan is from Latin paganus, an adjective originally meaning "rural", "rustic" or "of the country." As a noun, paganus was used to mean "country dweller, villager." In colloquial use, it would mean much the same as calling someone a 'bumpkin' or a 'hillbilly'. Paganus was almost exclusively a derogatory term. (It is from this derivation of "villager" which we have the word "villain", which the expanding Christians called the Pagans of Northern Europe/Scandinavia). From its earliest beginnings, Christianity spread much more quickly in major urban areas (like Antioch, Alexandria, Corinth, Rome) than in the countryside (in fact, the early church was almost entirely urban), and soon the word for "country dweller" became synonymous with someone who was "not a Christian," giving rise to the modern meaning of "pagan."[1] In large part, this may have had to do with the conservative nature of rural people, who were more resistant to the new ideas of Christianity than those who lived in major urban centers.

In practical applications, it's basically a nature based religion, or what I like to think of as way of life. On a personal level, I never labeled myself as Wicca or Pagan, per se. It was a big deal after "The Craft" came out, which really irked me because what was intended as entertainment turned into a really insulting fad. Anyway, I meditate, A LOT. Everyday, three times a day, at a minimum. I do so in a very systematic and routine way. I always tell my mom (she is VERY religious and strong in the Mormon faith) that she needs to leave me be while I am doing this as she wouldn't want someone interrupting her in the middle of Sacrament (once a week, on Sundays, they do this). I've recently started eating meat again (not really recent, last couple of years and a long story), but it actually pains me to do so, since for a long time I was a vegetarian (vegan for part of that time). I treat trees, flowers, basically the earth with a great deal of respect (which isn't hard to do: don't litter, don't throw cigarette butts everywhere, try to recycle, etc).

Like I said, it's not a religion to me, but a way of life and a way of thinking about others and your surroundings. (That doesn't really answer your question(s), but I thought since I don't have good resources to give, I would at least try to give you a practical application example of what I'm trying to convey here).

PS - I actually have a number of books on the subject, but I have to find them since I haven't yet finished unpacking (I just moved a month ago). I would delve into this further, if you'd like when I finish unpacking (or hit the library, which I'm DYING to do since I've heard the Carnegie Library is really really cool).

Having typed all that, I realize that I am really off the purpose of this topic and for that, I apologize.

[illriginal]

Pretty good explaination. But isn't there more to it than just Wiccans and people who care more for their environment? I was pretty sure one who worships multiple Gods was also under the category of Pagan. Isn't that the reason why Egyptians were considered pagans as well?

O/T (Off topic)
I'm not here to criticize anyone for their belief system nor their belief system at that. I did come off as if I was trying to disrespect a religion and it wasn't my intentions. It's not in my nature to hate and or disrespect in general. And I fully understand that belief systems is a very touchy subject, so to anyone I offended, forgive me.

[*kryogenix*]

Tamacracker, you are walking on thin ice for you complete and absolute disrespect. It is possible to challenge religious ideas without being offensive. Throughout the topics I have debated with you, I noticed a pattern with you. You will start attacking a belief, but when someone gives a defense, you refuse to read it and write it off as propaganda. Hypocrite, much? When I posted corrections to what you say I believe (why are you telling me what I believe again? I think I understand my religion well, thank you very much), you twist what I say into ad hominem. And you continue to ignore what I say.

Be respectful, be open minded and be responsive. That's all I ask of you.

Here is my rebuttal.

God has no partners... you don't need to ask for saints to help you pray to God, that's just laughable. So wait you're tellin me that Catholics are actually spiritually weak, right? Since they cannot make a strong spiritual bond with God, even when they pray? They need the help of saints in order to pray? Well that sucks, in my opinion.

Hooray for ad hominem. Do you believe your prayer is worth more than the prayer of one who gave their life for God? Do you feel you are closer to God than a Saint? Me, I am but a humble servant and sinner so if I can get the help of a Saint or Mary, I'll gladly take it.

God has no partners yes, but God has his workers. What are angels to you? From my study of Islam, angels play an important role.

In my case, I pray 5 times... that alone covers any little sin I commit through out the day. I don't ask for saints or angels or prophets to help me make a connection with God in order to have my prayers heard.

Do you pray only to cover sin? Do you pray only when you want something? I'm not here to get into a piousness contest, so I stress again that I am but a humble servant of God.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

-Matthew 6:5

Jesus is not God, not in my religion. He's the Messiah, the savior of the human race. Doesn't mean we have to pray to Jesus nor call him Lord. In my religion, what saves you is:
Believing in God, knowin God has no partner, believing that Prophet Muhammad is his slave and his prophet, and that Jesus the son of virgin Mary is God's slave/prophet and also the Messiah. Believe that there's heaven and hell, and live by the Laws of God, meaning no commiting of sins.

Humility is why I go to confession.

Jesus cannot change the Laws of God, only God can change those Laws. The New Testament was modified by the Romans. In fact Jesus was never crucified, there's no proof of it. Jesus never died and raised again. That's what the Egyptians claimed with their Gods... The Roman version of Jesus or shall I say the new/modern age Christians believe the same exact stories of the Egyptian Gods. Don't believe that? Look up the relevance in Osiris and Jesus.

Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?

Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny’s letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Showing similarities between other religions, ok what's your point? And if you want to point the finger about copying, take a look at Islam as well. Let's just say Muslims weren't the first to worship at Kaaba.

Romans believed in the Egyptian Gods as well... how can you sit here and honestly believe that the Romans who were disgusting to begin with, no where near the men or nation of God
could have not touched the facts of Christianity. The Romans destroyed the image of Jesus and destroyed his message, then recreated him for their personal agenda in Imperialism... the truth hurts, some people can't handle the truth so they purposely stay ignorant and laugh at what God has revealed to them.

You have nothing to back up this claim. It wouldn't make sense anyway, the Bible makes Rome look bad.

Why do you think Christianity is so popular to begin with? Christianity would have not been soo popular if they didn't divide and conquer. Murdering, raping, stealing, and force converting was part of the Roman and Spaniard agenda in order to control the people with their governance. Wait you do know that there was a time where Christians were killin off Christians right? Where a blasephemous "so-called" sect of Christianity could not let the truth be told, and they would do anything to destroy the truth. They succeeded in the most part, but guess what? There's actually a part of the world that holds the truth of Christianity... that's in Jordan. Those Christians there do not have the same Western Civilzation's version of the NT... they have authentic version

Forced conversions aren't nice. But guess what. Christianity was very small after Jesus' death. They were persecuted by the Romans and were driven underground until Constantine finally accepted Christianity.

And again, if you want to point the finger, maybe you should take a closer look at Islam. Christianity became a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood. Islam, on the otherhand, took many victims in its early years and its eventual spread througout the Middle East.

You should know that I myself have already studied the OT and the NT, in fact I also read the Torah. It is not permissible to confess your sins to another human being or an object. In the NT, the best arguement Christians use is that the followers of Jesus would confess to him and the other followers lol... that's a lie but then again modern day Christians would believe anything

Sigh. I said read a Catechism, not the New Testament and Old Testament. The Catechism is a summary of what Catholics believe, that is why I told you to look at it, because you have some mistaken views of what Catholics believe. And nice ad hominem you got there.

Why would I ever respect the Catholic religion? Read the OT, find the answer there. Stop using Jesus and the saints and whatever else is in the NT to argue the point. It doesn't hold a drop of water.

I assume you don't represent Islam then. Because my understanding from what I learned in school throughout the years is that Muslims are taught to be respectful of Judaism and Christianity and that those two religions are treated with honor as commanded by the Koran. And the Muslims I've met are very respectful. Though, recently I've found out some more ugly things like dhimmis and Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam.

No human can truely forgive a sin, no human has that authority. You can forgive someone for hurting you, or stealing from you, but you cannot forgive their "SIN" Sin that their spirit has commited, how can a human forgive a spirit? They can't... they can't make that connection, only God can.

I agree, only God can pardon sin. What's the problem here?

I smell Egyptian ritual here... sorry, doesn't hold water either.

I smell lack of reading/undestanding, closed mindedness and pretentiousness here.

Again, I repeat, you're being incredibly disprespectful. Attacking my beliefs is fine in the debate. Attacking me or people who share my beliefs is not OK. Also, telling me what I believe is not OK.

[illriginal]

Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?


Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a man, Messenger of God, and the Messiah, who will return to destroy the anti-Christ, very soon.

He was born of Virgin Birth, son of the Virgin Mary, but his mission was that of a Prophet, like every Prophet before and after him, and he taught the SAME doctrine of salvation as all of God's other Prophets: that salvation is through God alone, and NOT through any one of His creations. He is distinguished by his virgin birth, the sign of the Messiah.

Read more here: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

The NT claims that Christ personally claimed to be God. He said "I and my Father are one" "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" "I am the way the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"

Jesus (pbuh) didn't write that sentence there, he didn't even take a look at it and authenticate it. These passages were written after he ascended to Heaven, YEARS after, and remained a huge controversy among Christians for up to 300 years after his ascension.

Some writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth. THEY are the liars, and Jesus said nothing but the Truth. He was neither God NOR a Heretic. The liars among the writers of the NT were the heretics.

Most Christians are told that Jesus' (pbuh) true apostles, i.e. the men that Jesus (pbuh) considered his apostles, are the writers of the NT. This is a major misconception.

The Qur'an talks about Jesus' desciples, that they are trusted and pious men, but there is simply no evidence that ALL the writers of the NT are the men that Jesus (pbuh) himself CONSIDERED his apostles.

WORSHIPPING ANYTHING OR ANYONE in ASSOCIATION with God, in any way shape or form, is the UGLIEST sin imaginable in the sight of God. In fact, God says:

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (Qur'an 4:48)

That means if the Christian Missionary lived his life for JESUS (pbuh) instead of GOD, the LORD OF JESUS (pbuh), he is in SERIOUS trouble.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in whose Hand is the life of Muhammad, anyone of this community, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in me, will be among the inhabitants of the Hellfire."

That's a VERY serious warning. Again, that does not imply ETERNAL Hell, but it definitely means that you can spend a LIFETIME doing good for other than God, and it won't count ANYTHING towards your salvation.

You're being emotionally led to believe that disbelieving that the NT is 100% the accurately transmitted words of Jesus (pbuh) is somehow akin to disbelieving in Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his apostles. ALL of these emotional appeals take as granted the assumption that the NT is something Jesus (pbuh) dictated or verified as true on his authority.

By the way, even among Christians there is no consensus that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were actually written solely by those individuals.

The tradition has been to presume this, though there is little scholarly proof that even these books were written by Jesus' (pbuh) apostles.

If you don't believe me, go to some prominant Christian websites and see what they say about the "authors of the New Testament". They are often pretty frank about it.


Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny's letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Muslims believe that God saved Jesus (pbuh) from being crucified. They don't believe that his mission was to be crucified, but to deliver the message of God, like all prophets (pbut).

All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation [posed in the question] is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."


Let's just say Muslims weren't the first to worship at Kaaba.

Can you be a little more specific on this?

Forced conversions aren't nice. But guess what. Christianity was very small after Jesus' death. They were persecuted by the Romans and were driven underground until Constantine finally accepted Christianity.

And again, if you want to point the finger, maybe you should take a closer look at Islam. Christianity became a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood. Islam, on the otherhand, took many victims in its early years and its eventual spread througout the Middle East.


Christianity did NOT become a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood… you need to come back to reality. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Roman Empire.
Then you have those missionaries who go to other countries and tell the poor, hungry, and sick that if they convert to Christianity, they'll get medical attention, food, and financial help. Those who do not accept, get left to die. Oh about killing those who are not of their religion? Didn't a "Church" help the Nazis? Weren't most of the Nazi regime Christians of all sorts of sects? Then you have the KKK… actually here, learn some of your Christology from past to current Christian terrorist organizations, who oppress those who are different under the name of "Lord Jesus":
Learn a little aspect of your Christology
You see how this works?

By the way go back to around 1470… pretty brutal around that time, whatever happened to peace and loving religion? I dunno.

Islam didn't spread by the sword… or in other words through oppression. There's bad people and there's good people, there's a person like yourself who claims to be a humble Christian and there's the KKK and Neo-Nazis. True people of God will see heaven and deviant people who thought they were people of God will be sent straight to where they belong… and that's not heaven. Islam does not oppress, but it defends. So why would the people of God go around converting people by force? They would disobey the Laws of God… for what reason? Islam is not about forcing conversions.

Also you mentioned something about a Christian convert that's set to die? Well as for the Christian convert, apostasy is considered a crime in Islam and is punished by death. The same rules were practiced by Christians and Jews in the past. Those rules never changed, the people did as they modified their religions. Islam doesn't change its rules.

I agree, only God can pardon sin. What's the problem here?

Well if you agree that only God can forgive sins… then why confess to another human being? What makes them special or as worthy as God?

Also about the 2nd Commandment with engravings, pictures, drawings, sculpting etc which leads to idolizing...

Drawing and sculpting living things have always been illegal in Islam.
Drawing or sculpting God, his heavens, prophets, angels etc.. is prohibited, but now describing them textually is permitted.

And the funniest argument I heard about drawing, engravings, and sculpting when it comes down to Muslims is they "used" to do it… So what? It has ALWAYS been illegal in Islam. Some people also used to drink and still do. That doesn't mean it is PERMISSIBLE.

The Messenger of God (pbuh) said:

"Those who will be most severely punished are those who imitate the creation of God Almighty"
The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) added: If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.

I'm still wondering why your religion worships someone depicted in pictures and windows in your churches, if it goes against the Law of God.

[ Posts merged. Please use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your posts. Thanks. ]


This post has been edited by mona lisa: Sep 8 2006, 07:51 AM

[*Zatanna*]

^ Eeek with the double posting. Please don't, just edit the post instead of making a new one.

[*chaneun*]

Secondly, Catholics do not worship Mary. Never have, never will. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. Read a list of intercessions, you will see that any request made to God will be followed by "Hear our prayer," while any request made to Mary or the Saints will be followed by "Pray for us."

Third, Catholics do not worship idols. Statues and pictures are just representations of what they are. The reason there is a commandment against idols is that for the ancient Hebrews, the common pagan practice were to worship stone idols of false Gods. The objection is against worshipping false Gods, not representations of God.

You better re-read your 10 commandments.

Praying to anyone or anything for that matter other than God is a sin... that's paganism. That's something the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians did.

He clearly stated that Catholics don't worship idols.




Anyway, I don't feel like reading all the replies to this topic.
I don't believe just saying "because my religion states that this is correct" may be convincing to one in a debate because that is one person's own personal belief. However, when you're young and naive, your parents or guardians could have raised you according to a certain religion, making you likely to partake in that belief. You're raised to think that the bible/your religion is "correct." As you grow older and become more realistic in life, you may have doubts of what can really happen and can never happen, or what could have been physically possible to happen. But if you still insist on holding onto your religion, it will be difficult to convince one other side of a debate that you believe your ideas are right, especially if that one other side of the argument is deeply into their belief.

Overall, I don't think that using your religion or personal belief to support your argument is reasonable, if using in a vague way such as "it says it in the bible."

Ignore this so I don't feel completely stupid when you reply back to this.

[illriginal]

Well I can use many other sources as well... from different religions, from philosophy, metaphysics, book of the dead..

Just to let you know, I was born Roman Catholic, then baptised into the Baptist sect of Christianity... never had a spiritual bond with God, maybe because I was praying to Jesus and askin Jesus to forgive my sins, and to help me and so on...

Then I became atheist after learning the facts of Christianity such as how it began, how did it spread, why did it spread, and also how badly it has been modified through out the centuries. What I find most disgusting in my opinion is the different sects of Christianity, how they pick and choose parts of the religion to benefit their life styles. We are the subjects of God yet we go modifying his texts and dividing his religion into "sub" religions or "sects".

Anyways, then after 9/11... and the horrific amount of lies that Bush brought to our ears, I started to think... "well he's lied about soo much as it is, he's probably lying about Islam too" Thanks to Bush and his tactics, I converted to Islam. And now I feel very spiritually connected, heck even my prayers feel like I'm meditating, now that's a "spiritual bond" with God.

Anyways, I know she/he claimed that Catholics do not worship idols... but the fact is God has no partners. That includes confessions/prayers, this person admitting that they ask for Mary or Jesus, or Gabriel, or Daniel who ever to help them speak to God is basically admitting that in the Catholic religion, God in fact DOES have partners... Your spiritual bond with God is between you and God only.. no one or anything for that matter exists.

All of God's creations have a purpose, such as his Prophets, his prophet's followers, heaven, Mary, and the Messiah.

1. We try to be like the Prophets, they are prophets because of the spcial bond they had with God. Our goal is to live our lives like the Prophets by following the laws of God.

a. Our Prophets gave us examples of everyday life and those Prophets gave us literature to follow the guidance.

2. Prophets' followers were people who only helped back up the literature of the Prophets with stories.

3. Mary the mother of Jesus, was the vessel of Jesus and his first apostle (though they say that's a bit sketchy, Mary being Jesus' first apostle/follower) We may praise her for being the vessel of Jesus, but nothing more... she's not on God's level.

4. Jesus is our savior, the savior of the human race. Believing in what God has revealed to us is the only way to be saved by Jesus, the Messiah.

[Nymphetamine]

Tamacracker, I am very open minded, even though I'm not too fond of Muslims, I don't go attacking them, never have and never will ALTHOUGH Muslims like you make me 'hate' Muslims / Islam even more. You're condemning Christians which is wrong. This is a VERY wrong approach. You're only giving Islam a bad name, even though it never had a good name (in my opinion).

I have a Turkish friend who happens to be a Muslim, she's aware that I'm not too fond of Muslims but heck she's VERY open minded. She's the reason why I'm trying to get over this 'Hate Muslims / Islam' mindset. But the fact is, you're making things worse.

Fine, you love Islam, you're 100 % Muslim but that doesn't give you the right to attack ANY religion. I am not a Christian but I don't go insulting Christianism. I was raised in a racist family which I am not proud of but rather, I say it out loud. I am the most open minded person in my family, I try to think well of everyone but people like you make it difficult.

The Qur'an is more authentic than the Bible... and Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qur'an as well. Plus the Bible is one big book of contradictions anyways, where as the Qur'an has no flaws.

That was TOTALLY un-called for. The Qu'ran has no flaws? 90 % of suicied bombers / terrorrists are Muslims and apparently (according to someone, I might not be accurate but who cares) they get their 'inspiration' from the Qu'ran. What kind of a book supports shit like that?

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a documentry on CNN on the life of Osama Bin Laden, he's a true Muslim but can you understand his state of mind? He's a terrorrist for the love of Satan!
Also, apparently your dearest Mohammed was a pedophile: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm and don't attack me, I didn't write it. Besides, that's not the only source, there are many of them.

I know I came off as 'aggressive' and whatnot, I apologize but all I'm asking of you is a little bit of an open spirit. How old are you? To me, you're just a typical Muslim but I might be wrong.

Just to make things clear, I do not hate all Muslims, just most of you, especially when you try to convert me / people to your Religion by condemning another.

[Spirited Away]

Tamacracker, I am very open minded, even though I'm not too fond of Muslims, I don't go attacking them, never have and never will ALTHOUGH Muslims like you make me 'hate' Muslims / Islam even more. You're condemning Christians which is wrong. This is a VERY wrong approach. You're only giving Islam a bad name, even though it never had a good name (in my opinion).

I have a Turkish friend who happens to be a Muslim, she's aware that I'm not too fond of Muslims but heck she's VERY open minded. She's the reason why I'm trying to get over this 'Hate Muslims / Islam' mindset. But the fact is, you're making things worse.

Fine, you love Islam, you're 100 % Muslim but that doesn't give you the right to attack ANY religion. I am not a Christian but I don't go insulting Christianism. I was raised in a racist family which I am not proud of but rather, I say it out loud. I am the most open minded person in my family, I try to think well of everyone but people like you make it difficult.
That was TOTALLY un-called for. The Qu'ran has no flaws? 90 % of suicied bombers / terrorrists are Muslims and apparently (according to someone, I might not be accurate but who cares) they get their 'inspiration' from the Qu'ran. What kind of a book supports shit like that?

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a documentry on CNN on the life of Osama Bin Laden, he's a true Muslim but can you understand his state of mind? He's a terrorrist for the love of Satan!
Also, apparently your dearest Mohammed was a pedophile: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm and don't attack me, I didn't write it. Besides, that's not the only source, there are many of them.

I know I came off as 'aggressive' and whatnot, I apologize but all I'm asking of you is a little bit of an open spirit. How old are you? To me, you're just a typical Muslim but I might be wrong.

Just to make things clear, I do not hate all Muslims, just most of you, especially when you try to convert me / people to your Religion by condemning another.

I'm surprised that with a Muslim friend, you don't understand the religion. My best friend knows I have no affinity for religion and she, like your friend, is a Muslim. By not understanding, I mean that you are blaming Islam for terrorists. You must understand that there are radicals and fundamentalists in almost every religion, for example, the Klu Klux Klan supports a white, Christian nation. And, believe it or not, the KKK uses the Bible to support of their reason for hate.

Just because a holy scripture of one religion is used for hate does not mean that the Scripture is hate. When you say that the Qu'ran is flawed because it is an inspiration for hate to suicide bombers, you might as well say that the Bible is an inspiration for hate to the KKK.

You're saying that being Muslim does not give the right for Tama to attack any religion, but you are have been attacking his religion in turn. You guys are really birds of the same feather, or haven't you noticed?

[illriginal]

.
That was TOTALLY un-called for. The Qu'ran has no flaws? 90 % of suicied bombers / terrorrists are Muslims and apparently (according to someone, I might not be accurate but who cares) they get their 'inspiration' from the Qu'ran. What kind of a book supports shit like that?

Wow... 90% of Suicidal bombers/terrorists are Muslims and they get inspired by the Qur'an?

First off, prove that pathetic statistic by non Western Civilization media, actually you can use whatever source you'd like.

2nd of all, you're an American, right? I'd take the time to read up on your AMERICAN history and figure out how many terrorist we had in this nation that weren't Muslim, in fact most were known to be atheist.

3rd of all... the Qur'an teaching hate and terrorismt? Prove it... give me a HADITH or atleast a Qur'anic quote/scripture, I see through you and how much ignorance you truely have... And I don't sympathize for people who shoot ignorance and hate and then pretend to be "open minded" while making a disgusting fictional post.


A couple of weeks ago, I saw a documentry on CNN on the life of Osama Bin Laden, he's a true Muslim but can you understand his state of mind? He's a terrorrist for the love of Satan!
Also, apparently your dearest Mohammed was a pedophile: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm and don't attack me, I didn't write it. Besides, that's not the only source, there are many of them.

CNN? THat's all you have to say, TNT, FoxNews, Washington Post, New TImes, Los Angeles TImes, CNN, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, all claim to be fair and balanced media, when in reality their corperations are racist, money hungry, LIARS on a mission.

And Osama Bin Laden? Give me a break, he's not even freakin Islamic... he's a fake. He was a CIA tactician.. yeah that's right, OUR Government paid his income... I advise you to read and stop listening to everything that peopel tell you... believe in yourself, read, and learn the facts.

Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile? LOL You don't even know the facts, that's all that right wing, Christian, neo-con, zionist, and republican propaganda... you're lookin reeeeeal foolish, in fact I'm debating if I should just stop here.

I know I came off as 'aggressive' and whatnot, I apologize but all I'm asking of you is a little bit of an open spirit. How old are you? To me, you're just a typical Muslim but I might be wrong.

Just to make things clear, I do not hate all Muslims, just most of you, especially when you try to convert me / people to your Religion by condemning another.

We don't need to convert you... we don't care about converting. Yes it's nice to convert because Allah rewards you. But Islam can careless for conversions...
I'm a typical Muslim? You're such a disgusting biggot, if you said that in my face.... lol Oh man you're funny. Talk that hatred outside of your house there little boy. Unless you live in Texas or one of those midwest states, then it wouldn't matter, you're all the same. See how this works? You wanna generalize my religion? I can generalize you right back where it hurts.... "small pecker". (that's for disrespecting Prophet Muhammad)

But you know what? You again showed proof of racism/hatred...

[*I Shot JFK*]

^ She is a girl, she lives in Belgium, and there is only one 'g' in biggot.

That aside, Sandra, you attitude is partly resonsible for the Islamic people who DO become suicide bombers. A little more understanding, and a little less boom.

[illriginal]

Ah that explains her hatred... just like them twin Hitler loving pop rock girls lol... I'm done debating on this thread until someone intellectual has something to say.

Oh as my mispelling.. it's gonna happen when it's a letter too much or a little short... I tend to type at 107-110wpm.

[*I Shot JFK*]

Oh, i have the worst typing skills in the world, i just have a compulsive need to correct people. dont mind me

and also, i wouldnt peg sandra as a white supremist particularly, as she is black, but i see your reasoning. and i've now forgotten what the thread is actually about.

[*kryogenix*]

[quote name='Tamacracker' post='2274315' date='Sep 8 2006, 2:01 AM']
Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a man, Messenger of God, and the Messiah, who will return to destroy the anti-Christ, very soon.

He was born of Virgin Birth, son of the Virgin Mary, but his mission was that of a Prophet, like every Prophet before and after him, and he taught the SAME doctrine of salvation as all of God's other Prophets: that salvation is through God alone, and NOT through any one of His creations. He is distinguished by his virgin birth, the sign of the Messiah.

Read more here:[/quote]

I know who Jesus was, there is no reason to give me his story.

[quote]The NT claims that Christ personally claimed to be God. He said "I and my Father are one" "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" "I am the way the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"

Jesus (pbuh) didn't write that sentence there, he didn't even take a look at it and authenticate it. These passages were written after he ascended to Heaven, YEARS after, and remained a huge controversy among Christians for up to 300 years after his ascension.

Some writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth. THEY are the liars, and Jesus said nothing but the Truth. He was neither God NOR a Heretic. The liars among the writers of the NT were the heretics.

Most Christians are told that Jesus' (pbuh) true apostles, i.e. the men that Jesus (pbuh) considered his apostles, are the writers of the NT. This is a major misconception.

The Qur'an talks about Jesus' desciples, that they are trusted and pious men, but there is simply no evidence that ALL the writers of the NT are the men that Jesus (pbuh) himself CONSIDERED his apostles.[/quote]

How do you know they are the liars and that the NT is false? Who told you, Muhammad? If so, why did God wait so long to send someone? Why wasn't he pre-announced like Jesus was?

[quote]WORSHIPPING ANYTHING OR ANYONE in ASSOCIATION with God, in any way shape or form, is the UGLIEST sin imaginable in the sight of God. In fact, God says:

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (Qur'an 4:48)

That means if the Christian Missionary lived his life for JESUS (pbuh) instead of GOD, the LORD OF JESUS (pbuh), he is in SERIOUS trouble.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in whose Hand is the life of Muhammad, anyone of this community, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in me, will be among the inhabitants of the Hellfire."

That's a VERY serious warning. Again, that does not imply ETERNAL Hell, but it definitely means that you can spend a LIFETIME doing good for other than God, and it won't count ANYTHING towards your salvation.[/quote]

How many times do I have to tell you? Catholics do NOT worship the Saints! Never have, never will.

You're constantly saying that I know nothing about Islam, but you're always getting stuff wrong about Catholicism, even though I've told you three times. In fact, some of the things you've said have come into conflict with what I've been taught about Islam.

[quote]You're being emotionally led to believe that disbelieving that the NT is 100% the accurately transmitted words of Jesus (pbuh) is somehow akin to disbelieving in Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his apostles. ALL of these emotional appeals take as granted the assumption that the NT is something Jesus (pbuh) dictated or verified as true on his authority.[/quote]

Again, you're making assumptions about me. And the same could be said about Muhammad and the Quran.

[quote]By the way, even among Christians there is no consensus that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were actually written solely by those individuals.[/quote]

Make a new thread outlining these inconsistencies. I do not mind answering them, AS LONG AS YOU READ THEM IN THE BIBLE YOURSELF, THAT WAY YOU CAN SEE THE CONTEXT THEY ARE IN, INSTEAD OF JUST CUTTING AND PASTING FROM SOME WEBSITE. (understand why I'm emphasing that point).

[quote]
The tradition has been to presume this, though there is little scholarly proof that even these books were written by Jesus' (pbuh) apostles.

If you don't believe me, go to some prominant Christian websites and see what they say about the "authors of the New Testament". They are often pretty frank about it.
[/b]

Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny's letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Muslims believe that God saved Jesus (pbuh) from being crucified. They don't believe that his mission was to be crucified, but to deliver the message of God, like all prophets (pbut).

All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.[/quote]

Great, thanks for telling me what Muslims believe. But you've done nothing to debunk what I've said.

[quote]
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation posed in the question is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."

[/quote]

I take the time to type up my posts, I ask that you do the same for yours. Don't just copy and paste, or at least if you do, make it brief and highlight your points. What your doing is not arguing, it is the equivalent of of an evangelist driving a dumptrucking and dumping pamphlets and Bibles on the person he wants to proselytize.

Can you be a little more specific on this?

The Kaaba was a pagan worship site, then Muhammad just incoporated it into Islam.

[quote]Christianity did NOT become a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood… you need to come back to reality. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Roman Empire.[/quote]

Constantine was baptized in the 300s, effectively making Christianity a major religion. Before that, Christians were persecuted. Don't tell me the Christians were going around killing people. They worshipped in underground societies, don't tell me they were raping or pillaging before at least the year 300.

Islam on the other hand was born out of war.

[quote]Then you have those missionaries who go to other countries and tell the poor, hungry, and sick that if they convert to Christianity, they'll get medical attention, food, and financial help. Those who do not accept, get left to die. Oh about killing those who are not of their religion? Didn't a "Church" help the Nazis? Weren't most of the Nazi regime Christians of all sorts of sects? Then you have the KKK… actually here, learn some of your Christology from past to current Christian terrorist organizations, who oppress those who are different under the name of "Lord Jesus":
Learn a little aspect of your Christology
You see how this works?

By the way go back to around 1470… pretty brutal around that time, whatever happened to peace and loving religion? I dunno.[/quote]

If you're calling Christianity a violent religion because its followers were violent, then that gives everyone the right to call Islam a violent religion because of what has happen not just nowadays, but throughout its history. Put it this way, Jesus didn't go around fighting and stealing from people, Muhammad did. Perhaps some of his followers later on did not do good things, but that hardly is grounds for calling Christian ideology bad.

And if you're talking about the Crusades, the Christians were fighting defensively because none other than the Muslims were invading.

[quote]
Islam didn't spread by the sword… or in other words through oppression. There's bad people and there's good people, there's a person like yourself who claims to be a humble Christian and there's the KKK and Neo-Nazis. True people of God will see heaven and deviant people who thought they were people of God will be sent straight to where they belong… and that's not heaven. Islam does not oppress, but it defends. So why would the people of God go around converting people by force? They would disobey the Laws of God… for what reason? Islam is not about forcing conversions.[/quote]

Didn't Muhammad lead a war against the Meccans? Do you know the history of the Arab states?



Continued, due to quoting restrictions (To MOD: [b]DO NOT MERGE)

[quote]Also you mentioned something about a Christian convert that's set to die? Well as for the Christian convert, apostasy is considered a crime in Islam and is punished by death. The same rules were practiced by Christians and Jews in the past. Those rules never changed, the people did as they modified their religions. Islam doesn't change its rules.[/b][/quote]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Show me where in Christian and Jewish law it says this.

So I guess Islam isn't very welcoming to other ideologies then?

[quote]
Well if you agree that only God can forgive sins… then why confess to another human being? What makes them special or as worthy as God? [/quote]

Confessing your sins to someone doesn't make them as worthy as God.

[quote]
Also about the 2nd Commandment with engravings, pictures, drawings, sculpting etc which leads to idolizing...

Drawing and sculpting living things have always been illegal in Islam. [b]
Drawing or sculpting God, his heavens, prophets, angels etc.. is prohibited, but now describing them textually is permitted.

And the funniest argument I heard about drawing, engravings, and sculpting when it comes down to Muslims is they "used" to do it… So what? It has ALWAYS been illegal in Islam. Some people also used to drink and still do. That doesn't mean it is PERMISSIBLE.[/quote]

Good for you?

[quote][b]The Messenger of God (pbuh) said:

"Those who will be most severely punished are those who imitate the creation of God Almighty"
The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) added: If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.

I'm still wondering why your religion worships someone depicted in pictures and windows in your churches, if it goes against the Law of God.

[ Posts merged. Please use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your posts. Thanks. ]

[/quote]

WE DON'T WORSHIP IDOLS. Am I making myself clear?

By the way Tama, please learn to use the quote tags. It makes it a lot easier.

[Nymphetamine]

I'm surprised that with a Muslim friend, you don't understand the religion. My best friend knows I have no affinity for religion and she, like your friend, is a Muslim. By not understanding, I mean that you are blaming Islam for terrorists. You must understand that there are radicals and fundamentalists in almost every religion, for example, the Klu Klux Klan supports a white, Christian nation. And, believe it or not, the KKK uses the Bible to support of their reason for hate.

Just because a holy scripture of one religion is used for hate does not mean that the Scripture is hate. When you say that the Qu'ran is flawed because it is an inspiration for hate to suicide bombers, you might as well say that the Bible is an inspiration for hate to the KKK.

You're saying that being Muslim does not give the right for Tama to attack any religion, but you are have been attacking his religion in turn. You guys are really birds of the same feather, or haven't you noticed?

You're getting me wrong, I am in NO way blaming Islam for terrorrism. My response was to his statement saying

The Qur'an is more authentic than the Bible... and Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qur'an as well. Plus the Bible is one big book of contradictions anyways, where as the Qur'an has no flaws.

I didn't come off as an attacking bitch like he did. It was simply retaliation. If a Christian should have said that the Bible was a book with no flaws, I would have used the KKK example. I am not a Christian, I am not a Muslim, I'm Agnostic. It seems that you do not understand. I will not apologize to Tamacracker for anything I have said. I do admit that I think the Bible has got some contradictions but that doesn't give me the right to 'insult' it the way Tamacracker is doing.

Let me make myself clear; if a CHRISTIAN was acting like Tamacracker (like an idiot) I would defend Islam. I find it to be STUPID when believers think their way is the only way. It's repulsive, you know why? They're all in the same boat, Islam / Christianism / whatever.

I am not like Tamacracker, thank you. I've got a brain.

We don't need to convert you... we don't care about converting. Yes it's nice to convert because Allah rewards you. But Islam can careless for conversions...
I'm a typical Muslim? You're such a disgusting biggot, if you said that in my face.... lol Oh man you're funny. Talk that hatred outside of your house there little boy. Unless you live in Texas or one of those midwest states, then it wouldn't matter, you're all the same. See how this works? You wanna generalize my religion? I can generalize you right back where it hurts.... "small pecker". (that's for disrespecting Prophet Muhammad)

But you know what? You again showed proof of racism/hatred...

Why don't you shut the f-ck up? You're all almost the same (f-cking believers who think that your Religion is better that other Religions). And you think you can 'hurt' me? Hahaha, Osama, this is the internet, you can do NOTHING, idiot. I am a girl, I live in Belgium, come find me fool.
It would be SO much fun when you find out there's no God.

That aside, Sandra, you attitude is partly resonsible for the Islamic people who DO become suicide bombers. A little more understanding, and a little less boom.

How intelligent James. Blame me / people like me for suicide bombing. That statement is pure nonesence. A little more understanding for what?

In my opinion, Religion = hate. Be it Christianism / Islam.

[*I Shot JFK*]

Well, I DO blame the attitudes of people who attack islam for alienating islamic people. and alienation is the first step to becoming an extremist.

a little more understandic of moderate islam, and the role which the vast majority of muslims play in society. It was a perfectly intelligent statement.

i dont care for religion either, but i have more sense than to dislike those who do.

[Nymphetamine]

I am perfectly aware that it doesn't say in the Qu'ran: You all should be suicide bombers. Or did it?
James, you still don't get my point. My mom is a Christian, I would NEVER tell her in her face that the Bible is full of contradictions or whatever bullshit. It's called RESPECT!

Oh yeah, blame me for the Suicide bombers in Iraq, damn I feel responsible! Why don't you blame me for the KKK? Honestly, it wasn't intelligent.

Tamacracker, you think I only hate Islam? Ha! My mom doesn't like Muslims, she's worse than me but most of the time we argue because I am ALWAYS defending Islam and Homosexuality (she hates both). Like I said, if a Christian should act the way you're acting, I would defend Muslims.
I don't see why you should judge Christianism when your Religion isn't exactly perfect either.

[*I Shot JFK*]

I am not solely blaming you, stop being melodramatic. I am telling you that attitudes like those you expressed are partially responsible for muslim alienation, which is in turn responsible for muslim extremism.

and stop misusing the word intelligent, as what you are really saying is that you dont agree with me. Nothing i have said has lacked coherence, or a base in logic. Saying that it is unitelligent is merely you being defensive, and is not helping.

[Nymphetamine]

Ha! Sarcasm isn't your strongest point James. Attitudes like mine are partly the reason why there are suicide bombers? WTF?
This is the first time I've ever come out openly about my disgust for Religions.

Seriously, you're making less sense James.

[*I Shot JFK*]

There wasn't any sarcasm involved in the last post, so reading comprehension clearly isnt your strongest point.

As for it being the first time that you have discussed religion, that would be why i said specifically that i was refering to attitudes like yours, and that i wasn't saying that you personally were responsible for suicide bombers.

Now, i could type the same argument for the third time, but i have no reason to believe that you will miraculously understand the very, very simple concept which i am outlining to you, so i will merely encourage you to read what i've written again. Because, i promise you, it DOES make sense, provided you understand words.

[illriginal]

I am perfectly aware that it doesn't say in the Qu'ran: You all should be suicide bombers. Or did it?
James, you still don't get my point. My mom is a Christian, I would NEVER tell her in her face that the Bible is full of contradictions or whatever bullshit. It's called RESPECT!

Oh yeah, blame me for the Suicide bombers in Iraq, damn I feel responsible! Why don't you blame me for the KKK? Honestly, it wasn't intelligent.

Tamacracker, you think I only hate Islam? Ha! My mom doesn't like Muslims, she's worse than me but most of the time we argue because I am ALWAYS defending Islam and Homosexuality (she hates both). Like I said, if a Christian should act the way you're acting, I would defend Muslims.
I don't see why you should judge Christianism when your Religion isn't exactly perfect either.

You're makin no sense, you hate Islam but you defend it against your mom... your mom is Christian yet she hates in general alot more than you do? Thanks, that's something I already knew about your people... but you don't hear or see me braggin bout your people's hatred for God's creations.

Just study Christology... don't even have to use the Bible to study the religion during the time Jesus was alive and after he died... Christology>Holy Bible/New Testament

[Nymphetamine]

There wasn't any sarcasm involved in the last post, so reading comprehension clearly isnt your strongest point.

Actually, reading comprehension isn't your strongest point because I was referring to my post.

As for it being the first time that you have discussed religion, that would be why i said specifically that i was refering to attitudes like yours, and that i wasn't saying that you personally were responsible for suicide bombers.

That was were I was being sarcastic, James.

Now, i could type the same argument for the third time, but i have no reason to believe that you will miraculously understand the very, very simple concept which i am outlining to you, so i will merely encourage you to read what i've written again. Because, i promise you, it DOES make sense, provided you understand words.

Seriously, spare me the effort. You do not understand my point of view. I won't waste my time reading crap, seriously, I've got important stuff to do, so just stop.

Tamacracker:

You're makin no sense, you hate Islam but you defend it against your mom...

I hate Christianism yet I'm defending it.

your mom is Christian yet she hates in general alot more than you do?

There are Christian racists, moron.

Thanks, that's something I already knew about your people... but you don't hear or see me braggin bout your people's hatred for God's creations.

You're just talking crap. You detest Christianism, deny it or not. You're trying to make your religon seem perfect! Honestly, you're doing a VERY crappy job.

Just study Christology... don't even have to use the Bible to study the religion during the time Jesus was alive and after he died... Christology>Holy Bible/New Testament

Why would I do that?

Let me clear things out kiddo, I am not fond of Religions. It's like the kettle calling the pot black! That's EXACTLY what you're doing.
About Mohammed being a pedophile, I don't believe it. Know why? I don't believe Mohammed ever existed. I merely pointed it out to show you that there are contracdictions / weird stuff in the Qu'ran too. You saying that the Qu'ran has no flaws is BULL SHIT. I am sorry. Even Mohammed wasn't perfect.
I didn't mean to insult you when I posted that link, like I said, I used it as a reference, nothing more.

Anyways, I discussed this whole issue with my Muslim friend who happens to be one of my bestfriends. I am not a Racist, if I was, I wouldn't have a Muslim / Asian Friend. I got brainwashed as a kid by my dad. I am trying to get past this prejudism (is that a word) ? But when I see people acting like you, it makes me . . . you know.

Do you remember when Denmark published an article about the Prophet Mohammed, the Christians in my school were in support of it, I wasn't. We had a debate about it in Class and I was in support of the Muslims. Don't take my hatred to be personal Tamacracker, it switches from time to time. I detest Christians who think their Religion has got no flaws, same goes for Muslims.
It's like a whore calling another girl a whore. You're both whores!

There's no perfect / best Religion. You're all in the same boat.

[Spirited Away]

You're getting me wrong, I am in NO way blaming Islam for terrorrism. My response was to his statement saying
I didn't come off as an attacking bitch like he did. It was simply retaliation. If a Christian should have said that the Bible was a book with no flaws, I would have used the KKK example. I am not a Christian, I am not a Muslim, I'm Agnostic. It seems that you do not understand. I will not apologize to Tamacracker for anything I have said. I do admit that I think the Bible has got some contradictions but that doesn't give me the right to 'insult' it the way Tamacracker is doing.

Let me make myself clear; if a CHRISTIAN was acting like Tamacracker (like an idiot) I would defend Islam. I find it to be STUPID when believers think their way is the only way. It's repulsive, you know why? They're all in the same boat, Islam / Christianism / whatever.

I am not like Tamacracker, thank you. I've got a brain.
Why don't you shut the f-ck up? You're all almost the same (f-cking believers who think that your Religion is better that other Religions). And you think you can 'hurt' me? Hahaha, Osama, this is the internet, you can do NOTHING, idiot. I am a girl, I live in Belgium, come find me fool.
It would be SO much fun when you find out there's no God.
How intelligent James. Blame me / people like me for suicide bombing. That statement is pure nonesence. A little more understanding for what?

In my opinion, Religion = hate. Be it Christianism / Islam.

I'm only getting you wrong, Sandra, because you gave me a wrong impression of yourself when you use the same kind of insult tatic he did. That's where the proverbial birds of a feather comes into play.

As for Tama, if he doesn't understand that his kind of "argument" (more like insults to me) is the crux of why people are attacking Islam in this forum, I have nothing further to contribute.

[Nymphetamine]

I came off as a Racist (I just read my posts) which I'm not. I only acted like Tamacracker, like a fool I mean. I find it to be extremely insulting when he condemns another Religion. He's portraying Islam to be the perfect Religion which bugs me.

About the pedophile thing, like I explained earlier, it's a bowl of shit, I don't believe Mohammed ever existed.

Anyways, I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression of me.

[Spirited Away]

I know what you mean and it's okay now that you clear yourself up. I'm not Christian either and I was a little offended as well, but I was also offended by what you said about Islam in anger. Against these kinds of people, it's best to let them bark whatever they want so they'll shut up sooner, in my opinion. Ils sont fous et nous négligeons des gens fous, n'est-ce pas?

[Nymphetamine]

Oui, t'as raison. Ils sont fous. Wow, I say crap when I'm angry.

Anyways, I don't know why people write in tiny-size, bright pink or green color fonts either.

[*kryogenix*]

Against these kinds of people, it's best to let them bark whatever they want so they'll shut up sooner, in my opinion. Ils sont fous et nous négligeons des gens fous, n'est-ce pas?

When you say this, you don't mean me, do you?

[EddieV]

All this argument is why I should bring in my religious belief. Potenium. It's not what side you choose, it's how you interpret what you're taught, and what way you use it that makes you good or evil.

[Nymphetamine]

Eddie, you're evil.

[Spirited Away]

No, James, of course I don't mean you. You I can stand. I meant the kinds of insults Tama has been throwing left and right. When you and I debate, at least we're civil and respectful even though we are on opposite ends religion wise.

[EddieV]

Eddie, you're evil.

Clouded your mind is, the darkside I sense in you! Give in to your hate! It will only make you stronger!

[Nymphetamine]

When you say this, you don't mean me, do you?

I'm sure she didn't.

EDIT//
EDDIEEE! Stop hypnotizing me!!

[EddieV]

It's really working? I thought I can only influence the weak minded...

[Nymphetamine]

I can't resist hot people.

[EddieV]

Yeah neither can I, it's hopeless for me to resist...

[Nymphetamine]

*Faints* I'm all yours Eddie.

[*Libertie*]

Alright, Eddie and Sandra, take it somewhere else please.

[EddieV]

^ Sorry Dani, guess we got a little carried away...

[Nymphetamine]

Alright, Eddie and Sandra, take it somewhere else please.

I'm sorry.

[sweetangel2128]

In nearly every debate, people always seem to insist on using "I believe this because of my religion" or "it's in the bible."

However, are these actual valid foundations for debate?

I know what you mean, whenever I talk to another Christian ( I am a Christian by the way) about a problem or something in life that I am wondering about they quote from the Bible or they'll say: "Because it's in the Bible" or because "Because, that's what the Bible says"...in my opinion the Bible is our education to learn things about God but we have no idea if it's true or not, that's when Faith comes into play...