the importance of truth Options

[peanutbutterbbb]

For all of the anti-theists here -- what is the importance of capital 'T' Truth? That is, is there any defendable reason why truth is inherently better than illusion? About which nothing can be said, why is nothing better than something?

[ComradeRed]

For all of the anti-theists here -- what is the importance of capital 'T' Truth? That is, is there any defendable reason why truth is inherently better than illusion? About which nothing can be said, why is nothing better than something?

What is Truth?

[peanutbutterbbb]

truth as in, why must you have concrete evidence that god does exist in order for you to believe?

[ComradeRed]

truth as in, why must you have concrete evidence that god does exist in order for you to believe?

Because if you don't have evidence for something, then how do you know it's truth? Otherwise, it's just belief or perception, isn't it?

[peanutbutterbbb]

yeah, but that's not my question though -- my question is why does truth matter?

[waccoon]

truth as in, why must you have concrete evidence that god does exist in order for you to believe?

because blind faith isn't healthy. why not know what you're putting your trust and time into? after all, you're spending all those days in church.

fear of god?

fear of the unknown.

[ComradeRed]

yeah, but that's not my question though -- my question is why does truth matter?

There is no such thing as truth. If I say I can fly ... and I think I can fly ... and you think I can fly ... then I fly! There is no truth, no perception.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

Human minds are infinitely malleable ... Imagine what the truth ought to be ... and it shall be so ... If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face ... forever!

[Spirited Away]

Truth matters because, I don't want to believe in something false, .

[juliar]

Because it's like learning. You can take guesses, and think it is, but if youre taking math or something, you need CONCRETE facts in order to believe it. Like without it, 1+1 could be 3,4,5,6 and so on.
I'm sorry if that didnt make any sense, but i couldnt think of a common example.

[ComradeRed]

Truth matters because, I don't want to believe in something false, .

But how do you know what Truth is? Is truth not just your perception of the world?

Juliar, 1+1 can equal 2. Or it can equal 3. Or it can equal all of these things at the same time. You just have to take a Discrete Math class.

[peanutbutterbbb]

^ Exactly!

Is there any access to truth at all? And even if there is, why is the Truth Good in any absolute sense? If someone is comforted in death believing they are going to the Elysian Fields to rejoin their ancestors, what makes the 'Truth' that they are returning to nothing better?

[juliar]

But how do you know what Truth is? Is truth not just your perception of the world?

Juliar, 1+1 can equal 2. Or it can equal 3. Or it can equal all of these things at the same time. You just have to take a Discrete Math class.

I'm sorry if that didnt make any sense, but i couldnt think of a common example.

Notice.
Believing in something fake, like moon is made of green cheese, or that you arent alive, or something like that, truth matters because that is what we depend on to have knowledge.

[ComradeRed]

Notice.
Believing in something fake, like moon is made of green cheese, or that you arent alive, or something like that, truth matters because that is what we depend on to have knowledge.

But if I believe the moon is made of green cheese, and everyone believes the moon is made of green cheese, then is it not made of green cheese? How can you prove that it is not? Is truth, Winston, not just a combination of perception?

[peanutbutterbbb]

What may be truth to you may not be truth to another. I may feel that Hitler was wrong for persecuting and slaughtering millions of Jews, but he (and others) thought it was fine. It's personal, and therefore subjective. Therefore, there is no absolute truth because there are no absolutes. Everything is possible. Hence, nothing is impossible, only improbable.

[ComradeRed]

If no one believes the Holocaust took place, and all documentation of it was destroyed, then would it not be accurate to say that the Truth is that the Holocaust never occured, Winston? You must set aside your old biases. Embrace the love that is Big Brother. Embrace the love that is Big Brother.

[Spirited Away]

Well the question originally asked why believing in something true important.

Sometimes, we make things too complicated for our own good.

Truth is based not only on facts, but also on whether or not a person will accept those facts as truths.

Some may say that the the moon is made of cheese, that may be a fact for those people, but it's up to me to accept it as a truth. (Which I don't, thank goodness! )

[ComradeRed]

Well the question originally asked why believing in something true important.

Sometimes, we make things too complicated for our own good.

Truth is based not only on facts, but also on whether or not a person will accept those facts as truths.

Some may say that the the moon is made of cheese, that may be a fact for those people, but it's up to me to accept it as a truth. (Which I don't, thank goodness! )

But if you do, then it becomes truth.

You must accept it. You shall accept it. It is your destiny.

[*Kathleen*]

Um...okay...O'Brian.

Anywho, numbers aren't the greatest example for truth. They are merely figures set into our brains which can ultimately be substituted for other figures. You will know that the Holocaust took place because people witnessed it. You will know truth because there is evidence; not simply because everyone thinks it is so. Look at Columbus...everyone believed him that the earth was flat, but he was later disproved.

[cornflakes]

Truth is nothing more than a state of mind in which we believe wholeheartedly in some cause or thing.

[Spirited Away]

But if you do, then it becomes truth.

You must accept it. You shall accept it. It is your destiny.

Exactly. So each person has his/her own truths.

I can deny a truth until it reveals to me the evidences or proofs behind it.

Destiny isn't about accepting truths. Part of destiny is about finding out what your truths are.

[cornflakes]

There is no truth, it is all in our mind.

[EmeraldKnight]

There is no truth, it is all in our mind. 

Yeah.. I agree.. truth isnt something that's universal, its what we each believe in.. i mean.. how do we know that our lives arent just a dream, and that one day we'll wake up and everything will be completely different? Truth is what you make of your environment, what has been presented to you, and what you accept to be true

[*Kathleen*]

So, going back to the actual topic...because we choose to accept what is true, then the importance of something we don't accept as truth is unnecessary? I mean...people believe in God...doesn't make it truth; therefore, since I don't believe in that personally, does it mean that it doesn't matter in the first place? (I think I'm confusing myself)

[juliar]

Grawr this is so confusing. SO this will be my last post in this topic or else I will be a seething idiot soon.
Truth is usually something set in stone, something that happened. "Tell the truth." Means to tell the facts correctly. I don't think truth is opinion. Truth is fact, and you can go either wrong or right.

[*Kathleen*]

That's what I believe, Julia, but they're saying that it is whatever you choose to believe, which is part of it, yet itruth is still proven.

[ComradeRed]

Um...okay...O'Brian.

Anywho, numbers aren't the greatest example for truth. They are merely figures set into our brains which can ultimately be substituted for other figures. You will know that the Holocaust took place because people witnessed it. You will know truth because there is evidence; not simply because everyone thinks it is so. Look at Columbus...everyone believed him that the earth was flat, but he was later disproved.

During Columbus, not everyone htought the Earth was flat. He thought the Earth was round. I mean literally everyone.

If, tomorrow, all record of the Holocaust were destroyed, and everyone forgot about it, then no one could prove it existed. Thus, it would be accurate to say that the Holocaust never happened. Truth is collective perception.

[EmeraldKnight]

Truth is usually something set in stone, something that happened. "Tell the truth." Means to tell the facts correctly. I don't think truth is opinion. Truth is fact, and you can go either wrong or right.

Something that happened... but doesnt our knowledge of past events all rely on things others have recorded/left behind? I mean.. things could've happened in the past, but with no knowledge of it, we accept those to be false, and that is a mistake

If, tomorrow, all record of the Holocaust were destroyed, and everyone forgot about it, then no one could prove it existed. Thus, it would be accurate to say that the Holocaust never happened. Truth is collective perception.

What? I'm confused on your argument.. simply because no evidence exists doesnt mean that it never happened.. thats how science works.. we search for evidence to prove a theory true, just because we havent yet found the evidence doesnt mean that its false... i mean, taking Columbus as a reference.. in his time and before, everyone (excluding him) thought the earth was flat, but that doesnt mean its truth.. truth is undeniable fact.. if i say I'm talking right now, but since you cant hear me, you dont know if its true or not.. thats my whole point.. just because we dont have evidence doesnt mean that its still not true.. it just means that we havent yet found a way to prove it true or false

[ComradeRed]

Something that happened... but doesnt our knowledge of past events all rely on things others have recorded/left behind? I mean.. things could've happened in the past, but with no knowledge of it, we accept those to be false, and that is a mistake

What? I'm confused on your argument.. simply because no evidence exists doesnt mean that it never happened.. thats how science works.. we search for evidence to prove a theory true, just because we havent yet found the evidence doesnt mean that its false... i mean, taking Columbus as a reference.. in his time and before, everyone (excluding him) thought the earth was flat, but that doesnt mean its truth.. truth is undeniable fact.. if i say I'm talking right now, but since you cant hear me, you dont know if its true or not.. thats my whole point.. just because we dont have evidence doesnt mean that its still not true.. it just means that we havent yet found a way to prove it true or false

Truth is what you believe it to be. If you search for evidence to prove a theory, and never find anything, everyone will conclude that it's not true.

Might it be true? Yes. But if everyone thinks it's not true, then you can't prove it is.

[For those of you who haven't been abel to tell yet: I'm playing Devil's (or BB's) Advocate. Hence the references to "Winston" and "O'Brien" read 1984 it's worth it."

[EmeraldKnight]

Might it be true? Yes. But if everyone thinks it's not true, then you can't prove it is.

How can't you? Everyone in Columbus's time denied the fact that the Earth is round, Columbus proved them wrong.. thats how science advances.. new research and new evidence is constantly being discovered that proves true what ppl once thought wasnt true

Truth is what you believe it to be. If you search for evidence to prove a theory, and never find anything, everyone will conclude that it's not true

But if you find it later on? Like with the Coelocanth (however you spell it ); its a fish that everyone thought was extinct.. and ppl later found living specimens.. thus proving later on, that its true

[ComradeRed]

How can't you? Everyone in Columbus's time denied the fact that the Earth is round, Columbus proved them wrong.. thats how science advances.. new research and new evidence is constantly being discovered that proves true what ppl once thought wasnt true


But if you find it later on? Like with the Coelocanth (however you spell it ); its a fish that everyone thought was extinct.. and ppl later found living specimens.. thus proving later on, that its true

Yes you can prove something is true DOWN THE LINE. But AT THE MOMENT, that thing is true.

[EmeraldKnight]

Yes you can prove something is true DOWN THE LINE. But AT THE MOMENT, that thing is true. 

Its accepted to be true, that doesnt mean it actually is

Truth:

the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

(from www.m-w.com)

Just because we dont know the facts for sure, doesnt mean that it isnt true

Just because we dont know that something happened in the past, we cant deny that it happened, we cant say that "Dinosaurs arent alive today" simply because we havent seen them.. the word "truth" is often mangled in society, like with the judicial system, the better argument is accepted to be "true" even though that may not have been how things realli have happened

[ComradeRed]

Its accepted to be true, that doesnt mean it actually is

Truth:
(from www.m-w.com)

Just because we dont know the facts for sure, doesnt mean that it isnt true

Just because we dont know that something happened in the past, we cant deny that it happened, we cant say that "Dinosaurs arent alive today" simply because we havent seen them.. the word "truth" is often mangled in society, like with the judicial system, the better argument is accepted to be "true" even though that may not have been how things realli have happened

But if everyone thinks something is true, then what does it matter if it actually is or not? If everyone in the world thinks they saw me fly, and I said I flew, what makes a difference if I did or not?

That's why so many people believe in ghosts and UFOs, Winston.

[EmeraldKnight]

But if everyone thinks something is true, then what does it matter if it actually is or not? If everyone in the world thinks they saw me fly, and I said I flew, what makes a difference if I did or not?

Hm.. so if I were to brainwash everyone into thinking that their sole purpose in life was to serve me, would it not be important that they realize the truth? I mean.. isnt that the entire point of science? to find the real truth? I mean.. just thinking about it now.. I guess since you're more of a debater, the illusion might be more important to you so you can manipulate ppl or something, lol but for science, isnt the actual truth and understanding the more important thing?

That's why so many people believe in ghosts and UFOs, Winston.

Oh and my name's Eric btw.. I dont know who Winston is

[ComradeRed]

Hm.. so if I were to brainwash everyone into thinking that their sole purpose in life was to serve me, would it not be important that they realize the truth? I mean.. isnt that the entire point of science? to find the real truth? I mean.. just thinking about it now.. I guess since you're more of a debater, the illusion might be more important to you so you can manipulate ppl or something, lol but for science, isnt the actual truth and understanding the more important thing?

Oh and my name's Eric btw.. I dont know who Winston is

Winston is a reference to 1984. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here.

In 1984, the Oppressive Dictatorship Government re-writes history -- like the Bush Administration is doing now (they are making Reagan out to be a Bushie, when in fact Reagan, while influenced by neo-Cons, was not a neo-con and used much more restrained foreign policy) -- and basically said that the Truth is what the Party wanted it to be. They deleted history basically by destroying the records and brainwashing people.

Winston is the main character in the novel.

[EmeraldKnight]

erm... I'm confused now.. what are you trying to say?

[ComradeRed]

erm... I'm confused now.. what are you trying to say?

Ok to be brutually honest, I agree with you, truth is truth regardless of what people say.

It's just that the title of this thread was so stupid, almost amusingly, that I had to roleplay, you know?

If you've ever read 1984, you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, you can read www.newspeakdictionary.com -- it's the next best thing.

[EmeraldKnight]

Ok to be brutually honest, I agree with you, truth is truth regardless of what people say.
It's just that the title of this thread was so stupid, almost amusingly, that I had to roleplay, you know?

lol well you did a very nice job of defending the other side (which is what i'm doing in other topics, just not as good of a job as you)

If you've ever read 1984, you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, you can read www.newspeakdictionary.com -- it's the next best thing.

I'll try the site.. my friend told me not to read 1984 cuz it sucked

[ComradeRed]

lol well you did a very nice job of defending the other side (which is what i'm doing in other topics, just not as good of a job as you)


I'll try the site.. my friend told me not to read 1984 cuz it sucked

haha I liked 1984. It depends on if you get it or not. A lot of people hate it. But a lot also like it.

[EmeraldKnight]

haha I liked 1984. It depends on if you get it or not. A lot of people hate it. But a lot also like it.

haha alright, i'll give it a shot.. i think we've basically exhausted this topic just about now though, wow.. that was a lot of intense debating are around.. addicting too

[angel-roh]

That's what I believe, Julia, but they're saying that it is whatever you choose to believe, which is part of it, yet itruth is still proven.

true i agree. i also read ur other post kathleen. hmm well heh this topic is not that important for me to discuss but i guess um... watever ppls want to believe in i guess they can jus believe it. there are some scientist, mathemetician, teachers, astronomers, etc... they might end up telling something...but sometimes for us, it will be very hard thing to believe like believing God.

[jue]

truth matters beacuse if there werent truth; then everyone would be living in a life of lies and such. They would be lied to by there loved ones and they would also be lying. Truth is what rings people closed together; without truth; everything woulkd be caotic.

[rOckThISshYt]

I think there is truth behind some things and you can't identify truth or falseness in some things. I usually like concrete evidence with things. Just because someone tells me that there's a god doesn't make it true. Just because it's writen down in some book doesn't make it true. I mean, I used to kneel at the edge of my bed every night with my mom a pray to god. I'm atheist now because I've been able to have an indipendant mind from my parents. They don't mind that I'm atheist because neither of them are very religious.

But it matters because everyone would be so ignorant without it. I mean, if no one cared about truth, where would we be medicly? There would be no tests on diseases and people would still be dying at the age of fourty from the common cold. I mean, truth matters because it advances people every day.

[XoJennaoX]

haha...i really forgot which philosopher said this but i love it and it will probably tick some people off but here is goes anyway.

Believing in something is the same as NOT believing in something
For this philosopher (sorry i really can't recall the name) an aethiest is just as blind as a religous person....neither has any more actual knowlege on the subject of "truth" than the other, a religous person has "faith" and an aethiest has "skepticism" and thats it!

The point IS you never know!
.... maybe believing in a God is better, even if He is false. Or maybe believing in nothing is better, even if that is false....

I agree with this thats why i don't label myself under either