Moderators and Staff, Disrespect at a all time high! Options

[medic]

I, along with a few Cb users that I have talked to via AIM and MSN are fed up with the disrespect, and putdown that we receive by a large majority of the Staff and Forum moderators. I am not saying that all of the staff and moderators treat us with disrespect, but there are a lot that do. I guess a lot of people do not realize, that we are what keep this site going, we contribute to keep the community alive. We feel that the contribution of our hard work and time is not respected as much as we wish it should be. I have the balls to stand up and speak out when many have been to afraid too, because they feel as if the moderators and staff would then, disrespect them more then they do now.

I still, as I did before support this site and community as much as I have before, the disrespect does not make me feel angry towards the site, but towards the staff that feels if they disrespect the community, that we will still feed into it. At some point in time, enough will be too much.

Garrett

[heyyfrankie]

well, first of all, you are not the first to "have the balls to stand up and speak out" against moderators so feel like you're starting some BIG movement.

& secondly, you need to inform us of WHICH moderators, meaning usernames, are dishing out this "disrepect" & these "putdowns".

by doing this, we can get to the root of the problem in a quicker & more effective manner.

[medic]

well, first of all, you are not the first to "have the balls to stand up and speak out" against moderators so feel like you're starting some BIG movement.

& secondly, you need to inform us of WHICH moderators, meaning usernames, are dishing out this "disrepect" & these "putdowns".

Well, here is a idea. Walk into the bathroom and look into the mirror, and you will find one. I will contact Micron before I sit and talk to someone who has very little power, and still does not know how to use it.

[heyyfrankie]

do you even know what you are talking about?!
i'm head staff..one level below administrator. i have more power than you probably think. ;/
and obviously i DO know how to use my power OR ELSE I WOULDN'T HAVE IT!!
>:[

and if you are going to talk to micron about this, they why even start a public topic?

say it with me...PEE EM!

Topic Closed

[heyyfrankie]

topic reopened by topic starter's request.



discuss.

[racoons > you]

this is silly. for a start, you're hardly the first to bitch about the moderators. there is a whole thread about moderator performance which this could be merged with.

secondly., shut up about frankie. he's one of the f**king best staffers cb has, as well as perhaps the nicest. so get your facts straight, and have someone else to back you up, because at this point, im thinking you did something to deserve his disrespect.

and secondly, the admins/head staff have more overall power in terms of staff/member issues than micron, as they are more active and more capable of making an informed decision.

and no YOU DONT have the balls to do shit, because you didnt mention names, so 'brave' as you may be, you'll acomplish nothing, because your concerns cannot be addressed without knowing who they apply to. sort out your problem, and PM the relevant mod.

and then shut up.

[*digital.fragrance*]

You know guys... he's talking about "putdowns" and you guys are almost proving his point... shouldn't we respect his opinion? [/objective statement] (don't be mad at me)

Now Garrett, the only way you are going to ever get anyone to listen to you is if you be very professional about this... the whole "look into the bathroom mirror" thing really wasn't professional.... at all. Actually, it was a bit mean.

Everyone just stay calm... about PMing... I know that people have PMed the mod that they think has wronged them before, but it really hasn't gotten anything done.

The best way to come to a conclusion is without hurt feelings. Listen to him... just entertain his opinion okay? What could it hurt? It could make cB a better community.

[*ranniel*]

When staff is hired, Jusun and his current staff discuss who have the qualities of being a moderator that tries their best and tries not to discourage. Garrett, don't feel offended. They help us and we should try to make their job and easy and possible.

[medic]

I actually have a lot more respect for Frankie after I talked to him on AIM last night, I guess I would not call it talking… More or less a lot of “internet” yelling, but oh well, he has redeemed himself in my book. I do have multiple people backing me up, but you see. The thing with evidence, is that people misuse it, and If names are mentioned to staff in which some of these people are friends with, that puts you and I in an extremely awkward position… No? These people along with me are fed up with the treatment that some give already, do you REALLY think me giving all the mods there username will make you show just them with a little more respect? What about everyone else on the forum? How would your anger and ego get in the way of your position?

And apparently I have accomplished something, because you just showed your true colors. digital.fragrance is right, you are only proving my point by posting these stupid half assed comments, in which they still do not solve the problem, you are only making it worse.

Confidentiality is a right, and I respect ones decision if they feel the need to use that right.

[Jane Doe.]

I understand where you're coming from, but if you'd like to keep this confidential, then it would be best to PM an administrator about it and have them approach the specific staff member[s] or simply discuss it with them. Then, you could be more open and give specifics so this could be dealt with, rather than appearing to be false accusations(Since starting this with the intention of bringing up the issue, but not wanting to say specific names or examples, may not help.) And maybe, so it could be brought up to us, discussed, and dealt with Backstage.

[*Weird addiction*]

Gosh I adore Medic.

[*mipadi*]

I think you raise an excellent point, medic. Staff are people, too, and sometimes they get frustrated with some users, and are rude; unfortunately, for staff, patience is a virtue, and what is tolerated in other members cannot be tolerated in staff.

It's good that you brought this topic up, but I think we could all benefit from hearing about some specific instances. If you do not feel comfortable voicing them in public, please, please contact one of the staff members and talk to her privately. We'd really like to hear your feedback.

[talcumpowder]

Especially when they may not be realizing exactly what they're doing wrong. Specific is good. Patience is hard to come by when you've had a "bad day" about everything and you're just not feeling to great. Sunshine doesn't last forever.

[*incoherent*]

dear garrett,
you are now going to recieve a hella lotta anonymous shoutouts for this. :)

sincerely,
me


actually, i see where you are coming from, but like stated, i think you should p/m someone. it doesnt help the problem at hand if you can only voice a concern in the way we are treated opposed to a possible way it can be fixed.

[*mipadi*]

Especially when they may not be realizing exactly what they're doing wrong. Specific is good. Patience is hard to come by when you've had a "bad day" about everything and you're just not feeling to great. Sunshine doesn't last forever.

True, but when one is a part of a staff representing an organization, one cannot use "I'm having a bad day" to excuse impoliteness.

[*incoherent*]

__: Is it not true that you've had a bay day? Don't accuse us of not being pristine and perfect, but accuse our flaws instead.

okay, so i really wasnt siding with garrett on this, but that just furthermore proved his point. not about all mods, but about some in general. besides, it was in ANONYMOUS SHOUTOUTS of all places. i mean i know it wasnt you that said he should state usernames, but im sure thats what you were going for. the funny thing is, you had to state it in anonymous shoutouts, a place where this doesnt even matter.

this reminds me of the whole rachel and i trying to save james thing; where all the mods got onto our case, but yet it was in anonymous shoutouts. that didnt help anything just like you are saying this isnt. although i do disagree with the topic at hand, it is pretty hypocritical for someone to do this.

[Pulchritude]

well said.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Alright. I understand that you don't want to post usernames because you don't want to ignite trouble, but it's really much more helpful that way. The moderator performance thread is there for that very reason. People complain all the time about how mean the mods are, but we never know what they're talking about because no one ever says anything that's relevant...just, "dude, the mods suck" "man the staff's horrible" "i hate the mods" and that really doesn't help us. If you really want it to stop, you have to tell us what it is, because obviously, we're unaware of the problems.

[*incoherent*]

well said.

can i ask who you were talking to? two word posts improve nothing.

[*Libertie*]

Please, if I have ever done anything like this I would like to know. Topics like this always make me really worried, because I don't want anyone to think they've been disrespected by me at all. I try really hard not to be throwing my weight around or being rude.

You bring up a potentially good point, but if you don't mind, any specific examples would be nice. I'm sure the other mods would like to know if they're "guilty" as well.

[*Statues/Shadows*]

this reminds me of the whole rachel and i trying to save james thing; where all the mods got onto our case, but yet it was in anonymous shoutouts.

what are you referring to?

[*incoherent*]

what are you referring to?

when james was suspended and you were demodded for a week

[*Statues/Shadows*]

Im pretty sure those were two completely isolated instances.

[*incoherent*]

im just saying when rachel and i made sigs for it and half the mods made anonymous shoutouts about it.

[xklipse]

hah, when I first read this, racheal said exactly what I was thinking. Certain people are proving Garret's point. But then again, the staff that was talkin to him was Frankie, I remembered I like Frankie.
I somewhat agree with medic though, some staff aren't as nice as other, but again, if they aren't nice and helpful, they wouldnt be elected to be staff of CB in the first place. Maybe the staff you are refering to is just having a bad day?

[*digital.fragrance*]

^ Don't get me wrong - I like Frankie... I was just looking at this through an objective lens...

ditto the bad day. I think that sometimes people are just 'moody'...

[*mzkandi*]

In all fairness, I dont think having a bad day is an excuse to disrespect members of the community at all. I know we mods are but human but our attitudes (good or bad) can reflect the attitude members of the community have toward us. Think of it like this, if you work at a job, do take out you having a bad day on your customers? I would think not.

[YourSuperior]

^I agree with you 100%. That statement made alot of sense.

[*ranniel*]

There really is no use to this topic, moderators are hard-working type of people. You have to respect them for what they do. This goes back to why they were hired, they were hired just because of the role they played to cB - that would be making it a better, fun, and awesome community.

[*mzkandi*]

Actually, I do see the need for this topic. Also, no one has to respect us just because we are mods. Respect is earned. We can take the criticism , we need it to be honest. At the moment we are trying to improve community-staff relations and believe or not this type of feedback helps.

[*ranniel*]

I mean their is a point, yes feedback is good. But, bleh.. I won't even explain. Everyone just has to understand the mods, they are awesome people. I guess I can say that just for now.

[technicolour]

Honestly, how many mods do you know? I'm just wondering..

They need to exactly explain the disrespect that we are showing..and..what about all of our (us mods) hard work? We work hard trying to keep up with everything..

[*ranniel*]

well its not really a question of who I know, but the mods are awesome and you know that. they play a strong role to CB.

I know Kiera, Mona, bleh.. its better to say that some of the mods know me.

[*mipadi*]

There really is no use to this topic, moderators are hard-working type of people. You have to respect them for what they do. This goes back to why they were hired, they were hired just because of the role they played to cB - that would be making it a better, fun, and awesome community.

Mods aren't perfect. We make mistakes. The staff does invest a lot of time in (hopefully) making cB a better place, but sometimes we err. We really do appreciate feedback, though. Mods should be accessible to the community, and the community should feel comfortable coming to the staff with issues. While we never like to see complaints about mods, we do appreciate members taking the time to give their input about the staff—it helps to make cB a better place.

[*ranniel*]

^ understood & i totally agree.

[sadolakced acid]

what's this murmur of dissent?

no specific incidences, no usernames.
feedback is good. if it's really feedback.

[medic]

what's this murmur of dissent?

no specific incidences, no usernames.
feedback is good. if it's really feedback.

Actually, to be quite honest. I have talked to two mods/admins about this and have given them a list of usernames, and I am in the process of getting quote together and such.

[sadolakced acid]

and you can't state this publically?

i'll say this publicly: you, medic, are trying to provoke something. if you have already given names to admin, then why have this thread?

if you don't post any information here, this thread is useless. ergo, not feedback.

[medic]

and you can't state this publically?

i'll say this publicly: you, medic, are trying to provoke something. if you have already given names to admin, then why have this thread?

if you don't post any information here, this thread is useless. ergo, not feedback.

You know what, I have answered this question MULTIPLE times, over and over again in PMs, and in this topic itself. Confidentiality is a right, and I respect ones decision if they feel the need to use that right. The thing with evidence, is that people misuse it, and If names are mentioned to staff in which some of these people are friends with, that puts you and I in an extremely awkward position… No?

And yes, there is a load of feedback in this thread, 2 pages of it to be exact. People are posting how they feel, thus is feedback. I do not have the be the only one to do it.

BTW, I have also send the list to another admin who PMd with the sense of decency to ask in the proper way.

If I wanted to provoke something, I would have came up with a lie. This thread ITSELF shows that I, along with the people I have discussed this with, are not lying, that we do experience disrespect from time to time.

[sadolakced acid]

unless we actually know any facts, we can't discuss. so what's the point of this thread?

no one else is offering facts either.

confidentiality is a right, sure. really ballsy.

if you really wanted confidentiality you would not have posted this thread.

You know guys... he's talking about "putdowns" and you guys are almost proving his point... shouldn't we respect his opinion? [/objective statement] (don't be mad at me)

we're not mods.

[IceCream4U]

Medic vs. Mods

Medic: Well, I see your point. I have had one or two incidences where I was a little, lets say, shocked at what one of the mods said to me. Okay...a little more than shocked, more on the side of being pissed. So I know where you're coming from. And if you feel like everyone is ganging up on you, then I understand that too. In the original post, you said that you talked to others about this mod problem. So, everyone is taking it out on you because you were the one who brought up the situation. While I don't necessarily like the expression, "I had the balls", that's basically it. You had enough of that sh*t, so you just wanted to make a stand about it. Now mods, don't get mad at me now because I'm aggreeing that he had the "balls", and he could be posting in the moderator performance. Even though mods are human, they do not need to take out their bad day on people they most likely don't even know. Okay? Okay then. Now, I will move onto the mods side of the situation.

Mods: Now, I'm not exactly sure, as I am only an official member, but I'm pretty sure you have a tough job on your hands. Yes, you have 20 PM's a day, need to keep up your posting, etc etc etc. So I don't blame you - you are a human that has emotions. You're not a robot that just types and move the mouse all day. You have lives away from the computer, you go outside, eat, sleep, drive cars, friends, and even your own Xangas or Myspaces to attend to. So...yeah.


Okay, right now I'm really hoping that just because I typed more on Medic's side of the situation, you mods don't think I'm on his side. His is just more complicated. And Medic, don't feel bad because now I'm supposedly (sp?) on the mods side. Right now I'm just letting my thoughts go.

I hope that was nice for all of ya.

[sadolakced acid]

Medic vs. Mods

Medic: Well, I see your point. I have had one or two incidences where I was a little, lets say, shocked at what one of the mods said to me. Okay...a little more than shocked, more on the side of being pissed. So I know where you're coming from. And if you feel like everyone is ganging up on you, then I understand that too. In the original post, you said that you talked to others about this mod problem. So, everyone is taking it out on you because you were the one who brought up the situation. While I don't necessarily like the expression, "I had the balls", that's basically it. You had enough of that sh*t, so you just wanted to make a stand about it. Now mods, don't get mad at me now because I'm aggreeing that he had the "balls", and he could be posting in the moderator performance. Even though mods are human, they do not need to take out their bad day on people they most likely don't even know. Okay? Okay then. Now, I will move onto the mods side of the situation.

Mods: Now, I'm not exactly sure, as I am only an official member, but I'm pretty sure you have a tough job on your hands. Yes, you have 20 PM's a day, need to keep up your posting, etc etc etc. So I don't blame you - you are a human that has emotions. You're not a robot that just types and move the mouse all day. You have lives away from the computer, you go outside, eat, sleep, drive cars, friends, and even your own Xangas or Myspaces to attend to. So...yeah.
Okay, right now I'm really hoping that just because I typed more on Medic's side of the situation, you mods don't think I'm on his side. His is just more complicated. And Medic, don't feel bad because now I'm supposedly (sp?) on the mods side. Right now I'm just letting my thoughts go.

I hope that was nice for all of ya.

if he had balls why would he be hiding behind his "right to confidentiality".

[medic]

if he had balls why would he be hiding behind his "right to confidentiality".

See once again your wrong, I am not hiding behind ANY confidentiality, I am not releasing the names of the Mods or the Users who I have talked to about this because of ONE fact, people like YOU would blow it out, you would use it against the users, you would put them down, tell them they don’t know what they are talking about, tell them they haven no reasoning to say or agree with what I am saying. Every sing time you feel the need to post in this topic sadolakced acid, is every time you make yourself look more, and MORE like a dumb***.

If I was hiding I would for one not have even confronted anyone about this and I would have not even come CLOSE to posting this thread. If I was HIDING as you call it, I would no reply to you half a**ed, stupid comments. You know what, that’s all I have to say….

The ignorant can be enlightened, the dumb can be educated but the stupid shall remain stupid because they openly reject both education, enlightenment! STUPID is FOREVER. And sadolakced acid, I am glad to say, I have meet someone in this world, that has the HIGHEST level of IGNORANCE I have ever seen, and you just happen to be that person.

Too those who think this is not professional of me to post…. I agree… But when ignorance becomes the main game, I tend to come down to the level of stupidity that I am challenging.

Stupid is, what stupid does.

[*Libertie*]

I understand why you aren't disclosing the names of the people who submitted these complaints to you, but is it possible to remove the names and then post the list? Or if you don't want everyone to know who was put down, just PM each staff member on the list individually? I don't know, I just feel that if someone's doing something wrong, they should know about it.

[medic]

I have PM'd them to mzkandi and mipadi, they have PM'd me asking for the list, and I sent it to them because they understand what I am saying and agree with my act too keep it confidential from the whole board. They have all responded and said that they will contact each one by one.

[*Libertie*]

Thanks, and I do understand where you're coming from, which is why I worry about what might have been said about my performance. I want to do the best I can, and if I'm coming across as rude or disrespectful to members I'm obviously not doing my best. As representatives of the site, we should all be concerned with giving members the same respect they give us. Perhaps this was a reality check for everyone.

[KissMe2408]

See once again your wrong, I am not hiding behind ANY confidentiality, I am not releasing the names of the Mods or the Users who I have talked to about this because of ONE fact, people like YOU would blow it out, you would use it against the users, you would put them down, tell them they don’t know what they are talking about, tell them they haven no reasoning to say or agree with what I am saying. Every sing time you feel the need to post in this topic sadolakced acid, is every time you make yourself look more, and MORE like a dumb***.

If I was hiding I would for one not have even confronted anyone about this and I would have not even come CLOSE to posting this thread. If I was HIDING as you call it, I would no reply to you half a**ed, stupid comments. You know what, that’s all I have to say….

The ignorant can be enlightened, the dumb can be educated but the stupid shall remain stupid because they openly reject both education, enlightenment! STUPID is FOREVER. And sadolakced acid, I am glad to say, I have meet someone in this world, that has the HIGHEST level of IGNORANCE I have ever seen, and you just happen to be that person.

Too those who think this is not professional of me to post…. I agree… But when ignorance becomes the main game, I tend to come down to the level of stupidity that I am challenging.

Stupid is, what stupid does.

I don't totally disagree with you on what you posted, and can understand where you are coming from. You demand more respect from the staff members to be given to the regular members, which is understandable. But first let it be known, the staff isn't "better" then a regular member in any way. Being a staff member doesn't mean that person is smarter or more mature. It does require patience, biting your tongue, and dedication, as well as people skills. Not everyone has incredible people skills, when someone is provoked they will lash out like you so kindly showed us up there in your post about sadolacked acid. I just don't really understand wanting respect from people, but not giving it back to them in return. If you are fighting against "ignorance" and "disrespect" for the benefit of this community, then i understand that and applaud you. I can't stand those things either. However, if that is what you are truly trying to do then please be an example of what you are trying to represent. Mods have a very tough challenge of always representing CB in their posts, actions, and judgements. It's not an easy thing to do, as you can see.
Although I do believe putting a smile on even when you want to scream at someone, and I do believe that sometimes the mods aren't right, but the regular members are. Still, either way there should be respect from both sides. This isn't about mods vs. the members. It's very unfortunate that we came off to you as the "bad guys". That really wasn't anyones intention.
And remember, this isn't just one sided. There are numerous times when mods aren't respected by the members either. As a regular member you don't get PM's cussing you out about closing their topic. Or you don't get PM's saying "fix this" "move this" "help me" "go to hell". It's a hard job. Try looking at it that way as well.
As a mod, it is our job to make sure everything is in order around CB and to make sure the members are happy and to help them to the best of our ability. If one of us has been disrespectful, then we as a whole have been disrespectful and i'm sorry for that. We are human too. And we will keep trying our best. Thanks for the post.

ps. If this comes up again, I suggest you PM the mod you are having trouble with. A lot of times things are misunderstandings, you'll be suprised how things work out when you communicate to the right people at the right time. Also, it would be the respectful thing to apologize to sadolackid acid through PM or atleast talk this through, I have worked with him for a while and I know for a fact that he isn't the "highest level of ignorance and stupidity" like you put it. However the choice is up to you, you are very much entitled to your own opinion.

[medic]

I don't totally disagree with you on what you posted, and can understand where you are coming from. You demand more respect from the staff members to be given to the regular members, which is understandable. But first let it be known, the staff isn't "better" then a regular member in any way. Being a staff member doesn't mean that person is smarter or more mature. It does require patience, biting your tongue, and dedication, as well as people skills. Not everyone has incredible people skills, when someone is provoked they will lash out like you so kindly showed us up there in your post about sadolacked acid. I just don't really understand wanting respect from people, but not giving it back to them in return. If you are fighting against "ignorance" and "disrespect" for the benefit of this community, then i understand that and applaud you. I can't stand those things either. However, if that is what you are truly trying to do then please be an example of what you are trying to represent. Mods have a very tough challenge of always representing CB in their posts, actions, and judgements. It's not an easy thing to do, as you can see.
Although I do believe putting a smile on even when you want to scream at someone, and I do believe that sometimes the mods aren't right, but the regular members are. Still, either way there should be respect from both sides. This isn't about mods vs. the members. It's very unfortunate that we came off to you as the "bad guys". That really wasn't anyones intention.
And remember, this isn't just one sided. There are numerous times when mods aren't respected by the members either. As a regular member you don't get PM's cussing you out about closing their topic. Or you don't get PM's saying "fix this" "move this" "help me" "go to hell". It's a hard job. Try looking at it that way as well.
As a mod, it is our job to make sure everything is in order around CB and to make sure the members are happy and to help them to the best of our ability. If one of us has been disrespectful, then we as a whole have been disrespectful and i'm sorry for that. We are human too. And we will keep trying our best. Thanks for the post.

ps. If this comes up again, I suggest you PM the mod you are having trouble with. A lot of times things are misunderstandings, you'll be suprised how things work out when you communicate to the right people at the right time. Also, it would be the respectful thing to apologize to sadolackid acid through PM or atleast talk this through, I have worked with him for a while and I know for a fact that he isn't the "highest level of ignorance and stupidity" like you put it. However the choice is up to you, you are very much entitled to your own opinion.

I have been showing respect to anyone and everyone who posts in this thread, and to the people on this forum. I know how hard it is to be in charge of a forum, I run a pretty large one with very little help. I have never once told a member to "not let the doorknob hit you on your way out." And yes, that is a true post from a Moderator, and was met with the up most disrespect as it sounds. I never said it was easy to be a mod, but I know if I treated any of my customers in the way that I have been treated by high ups on this forum, I would have no customers, and I would not get referrals.

The reason I reacted the way I did to sadolakced acid is because of his previous posts, as did I with Frankie, and others. And it is a plus, yes respect should come from both sides, I have treated a lot of the people on this forum with respect, and have received it back, but I have also treated people with respect and got sh** shoved in my face. I recommend you read all that sadolakced acid has said on this subject before asking me to apologize.

This is a little look of what I have been doing for the past two days.....

Every singe one of those IM windows was about this topic, and what could be done about it.

[racoons > you]

i like justin.

and just to clarify, spencer, i was suspended for something other than the steven/sandy debacle when nicki was temporarily demodded.

if ther is nothing specific being said int his thread, and if everything is being handled via pm, then this thread is redndant. and why is it seperate from moderator performance, anyway

[chococat15]

You know what, I have answered this question MULTIPLE times, over and over again in PMs, and in this topic itself. Confidentiality is a right, and I respect ones decision if they feel the need to use that right. The thing with evidence, is that people misuse it, and If names are mentioned to staff in which some of these people are friends with, that puts you and I in an extremely awkward position… No?

And yes, there is a load of feedback in this thread, 2 pages of it to be exact. People are posting how they feel, thus is feedback. I do not have the be the only one to do it.

BTW, I have also send the list to another admin who PMd with the sense of decency to ask in the proper way.

If I wanted to provoke something, I would have came up with a lie. This thread ITSELF shows that I, along with the people I have discussed this with, are not lying, that we do experience disrespect from time to time.

oh,COME on. if u wanted confidentiality, why would u have posted this big ordeal and not have the "balls" to say it in public? this is stupid.

[medic]

oh,COME on. if u wanted confidentiality, why would u have posted this big ordeal and not have the "balls" to say it in public? this is stupid.

I believe I have gone over that about three times now in this topic itself.

[*incoherent*]

i like justin.

and just to clarify, spencer, i was suspended for something other than the steven/sandy debacle when nicki was temporarily demodded.

if ther is nothing specific being said int his thread, and if everything is being handled via pm, then this thread is redndant. and why is it seperate from moderator performance, anyway

gah, yes, i just remembered that it was 2 seperate events. it completely slipped my mind.

This post has been edited by incoherent: Mar 27 2006, 11:02 AM

[*disco infiltrator*]

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread as it is causing animosity and is apparently being handled.