Creating Your Child, how far is too far? Options

[Heewee]

This is a topic that we have been recently discussing in my genetics class...


Recent technology has made it possible for those who can afford to do so to genetically select the gender of their baby:

Many parents desperately wish for that little girl (or boy) they always dreamed of. Now that it is scientifically possible to “sort” the X and Y chromosomes in sperm, The Genetics and IVF Institute is giving parents the power to choose the sex of their next baby. An FDA clinical trial of a sperm-sorting technology called MicroSort can determine the sex, with an 88 percent success rate for females, and 73 percent success for males.

The technology was originally created by the Department of Agriculture to use with livestock. According to a Newsweek article, over 1300 couples have used Microsort’s services since it began its clinical trial in 1995. The process can cost at least $2,500 each attempt, but it varies widely depending on what process is used (IVF, IUI) to achieve the pregnancy.

The ability to choose a baby’s gender opens a big can of moral and ethical worms, says the Newsweek article. “If couples can request a baby boy or girl, what’s next on the slippery slope of modern reproductive medicine? Eye color? Height? Intelligence? Could picking one gender over the other become the 21st century’s form of sex discrimination?”

Genetics is such a fast-changing science that the above article, written just under a year ago, is already outdated. Picking eye color, height, inteligence, and many other traits are available to parents to can afford to do so. This includes, the ability to do away with life-threatening diseases or even simple nuisances, such as wearing glasses. However, should people that have will have perfectly fine babies otherwise be allowed to genetically alter the alleles of their future babies just to change the eye color or hair color? My question to you guys is do you think that this is morally right and what are you reasons for or against your argument?

[*RiC3xBoy*]

Hmm...I actually find it hard to actually choose.....But just for the sake of debate, I will say that is moral because it does not harm anyone. Also reminds of the movie GATTACA which I loved.

[Ington]

Hmm...I actually find it hard to actually choose.....But just for the sake of debate, I will say that is moral because it does not harm anyone. Also reminds of the movie GATTACA which I loved.

Yes, that was an amazing movie. I think this topic is like abortion. People can do what they want, and it depends on their beliefs. You can't say its harming the baby, because its not (unless there are complications). The baby isn't even a fetus when the 'construction' is done on it, so it is nowhere near alive at the time. Its just a possession of the future parents.

[Heewee]

Yes, that was an amazing movie. I think this topic is like abortion. People can do what they want, and it depends on their beliefs. You can't say its harming the baby, because its not (unless there are complications). The baby isn't even a fetus when the 'construction' is done on it, so it is nowhere near alive at the time. Its just a possession of the future parents.

You're right, in some ways it is like abortion. However, if this method of genetic selection because very popular in the future, there will be no such thing as heredity anymore. We will all look the same and that will be very boring. Some people are okay with that, however. I wouldn't want my children to look like everybody else. I want them to be unique plus I want them to carry the family traits on from generation to generation.

[*RiC3xBoy*]

You're right, in some ways it is like abortion. However, if this method of genetic selection because very popular in the future, there will be no such thing as heredity anymore. We will all look the same and that will be very boring. Some people are okay with that, however. I wouldn't want my children to look like everybody else. I want them to be unique plus I want them to carry the family traits on from generation to generation.

Actually are you sure that the parents can pick whatever they want in there child or whatever want that THEY have. For instance, if the mother has blue eyes and the father has hazel, then could the boy/girl have brown eyes?

[technicolour]

...How is that not moral? They choose what they want. We choose whichever chicken we want from the grocery store, right?

Bad example, I know, but...really...how is not not moral?

p.s. Whoever has the gray font, it is incredibly hard to read.

[yummy_delight]

Maybe it's because of my religious beliefs, but there are certain things that should just be left for nature to decide.

It's important for children to have high self esteem, and to feel like they are perfect the way that they are. Imagine being told by your parents, "You know, you were supposed to be a boy. But we wanted a girl, so we made you one." Wouldn't you feel terrible? You would feel like your parents didn't love you the way that you were meant to be born, and that you were inadequate even as a fetus.

With the exception of genetic disorders or illnesses, babies should be kept the way that God made them.

[technicolour]

Maybe it's because of my religious beliefs, but there are certain things that should just be left for nature to decide.

It's important for children to have high self esteem, and to feel like they are perfect the way that they are. Imagine being told by your parents, "You know, you were supposed to be a boy. But we wanted a girl, so we made you one." Wouldn't you feel terrible? You would feel like your parents didn't love you the way that you were meant to be born, and that you were inadequate even as a fetus.

With the exception of genetic disorders or illnesses, babies should be kept the way that God made them.

Hmm.. Good point.

[pandamonium]

if we let this happen society will reach a perfect state. everybody would have the same features generation after generation, only if we would let this occur. Cause once we let people choose the gender of their baby a whole can of possibilities will open.

If we let this happen we would lose certain traits that are hard to find in this world. like people with double joints, people that can do different things than other people, siamese twins. Especially the people that are mongoloid those people usually have unconditional love, they will hug you and love you even if you have wronged them. Who knows we might even lose homosexuality.

All i am saying is that if we are able to choose the gender of our babies research will futher and anything could be possible.

so in my opinion we should not be able to choose our childrens gender, its not right, we should take what life wants to give us.

[PreludeTears]

...How is that not moral? They choose what they want. We choose whichever chicken we want from the grocery store, right?

Bad example, I know, but...really...how is not not moral?

p.s. Whoever has the gray font, it is incredibly hard to read.

True. We are still choosing to give a life and care for it. So it can not be moral. Its not like we are aborting

[technicolour]

so in my opinion we should not be able to choose our childrens gender, its not right, we should take what life wants to give us.

Hm. Plastic surgery anyone?

Oooh. Someone once said, i really can't remember who, that Plastic Surgery isn't right..because you're changing what God gave you.

if we let this happen society will reach a perfect state.

Perfect can mean many things to many different people...

True. We are still choosing to give a life and care for it. So it can not be moral. Its not like we are aborting

I'm sorry but I really dont get that...

[yummy_delight]

if we let this happen society will reach a perfect state.

Or an imperfect one. If this kind of genetic engineering becomes popular among parents, we'd be eliminating genetic variation. We could eventually phase out certain traits that may seem useless to us now, but could ultimately determine our survival, should a disaster happen that could wipe out the human race.

Although this takes it to an extreme, it could still be possible.

True. We are still choosing to give a life and care for it. So it can not be moral. Its not like we are aborting

Sure, the parents are choosing to give a life. But, they are still doing it under CERTAIN CONDITIONS. That, in itself, is unethical.

[technicolour]

Or an imperfect one. If this kind of genetic engineering becomes popular among parents, we'd be eliminating genetic variation. We could eventually phase out certain traits that may seem useless to us now, but could ultimately determine our survival, should a disaster happen that could wipe out the human race.

Although this takes it to an extreme, it could still be possible.

It is possible..damn you're good. Once again, another good point. It could wipe out things...hmm..

[pandamonium]

by perfect i meant that everyone will be physically athletic, academically smart, have no sicknesses, just plain perfect. there will be no variety.

[yummy_delight]

by perfect i meant that everyone will be physically athletic, academically smart, have no sicknesses, just plain perfect. there will be no variety.

I understand that, and the lack of variety was exactly my point.

Less variety=less chance of survival in a world that is constantly changing.

[Olive]

If something horribly went wrong, who is to blame? The engineer, the doctor, or the parents with the handful of cash? The responsibility of modifying someone else's life is not ours to deal with. Our task is simply to reproduce, nothing more.

[*disco infiltrator*]

I don't think they know what the gender of the baby will be when they do this in the first place so the whole "you were supposed to be a boy thing" probably wouldn't happen.

And really people, this happens way more than you think...is it not true that in China, since you are only allowed to have a certain number of kids, many girl children are killed so the family is allowed to have a boy to carry on the family name and whatnot?

It's the same thing, only not killing something. I actually think this way is a lot better in that sense. Besides, yes, it could lead to things that would actually be detremental, but that's not what this is. This is only gender. We can't just keep limiting things because POTENTIALLY something bad might happen. Anything bad can happen in any situation. We are furthering our scientific discoveries that could help or not help in the future. We don't know. All we know is that we ARE learning more. It could be bad, but it could also lead to good.

[Heewee]

I don't think they know what the gender of the baby will be when they do this in the first place so the whole "you were supposed to be a boy thing" probably wouldn't happen.

Actually, we were discussing this in my Genetics class, as I said, and my Genetics teacher said that when they chose specific traits of their child, they go in and alter them....meaning that they are already determined but they take the allele out and alter it and then put it back. So, yes, a boy could be changed to a girl.

[WindSorcerous]

Leave it all alone... Be happy with the baby you give birth too. It's a special gift and it was born a boy or girl for a reason. Don't change fate...

[Ington]

Maybe it's because of my religious beliefs, but there are certain things that should just be left for nature to decide.

It's important for children to have high self esteem, and to feel like they are perfect the way that they are. Imagine being told by your parents, "You know, you were supposed to be a boy. But we wanted a girl, so we made you one." Wouldn't you feel terrible? You would feel like your parents didn't love you the way that you were meant to be born, and that you were inadequate even as a fetus.

With the exception of genetic disorders or illnesses, babies should be kept the way that God made them.

It depends on the parent whether or not the child feels bad about it. It the parents are assholes, thats what will happen. But if they spend so much money to do that, I don't think they'd make their kid feel bad about it.

Or an imperfect one. If this kind of genetic engineering becomes popular among parents, we'd be eliminating genetic variation. We could eventually phase out certain traits that may seem useless to us now, but could ultimately determine our survival, should a disaster happen that could wipe out the human race.

Although this takes it to an extreme, it could still be possible.



Sure, the parents are choosing to give a life. But, they are still doing it under CERTAIN CONDITIONS. That, in itself, is unethical.

Its not wiping out genetic variation. Its just changing it. There isn't going to be a human standard or anything, the parents are going to pick certain details and change them. Its not going to be like in Gattaca. For example, the parents might say "I want my son to have blue eyes", but that doesn't mean that every parent in the world will have sons with blue eyes. It will be to the liking of the parents, not to the liking of humanity.

Also, I think that if parents are given a chance to help their child before its born is pretty ethical. Everyone wants a healthy baby. Just because they're given the option to and take it doesn't mean its unethical. They're able to take such a large burden as a new baby, so really, the scale tilts towards them.

by perfect i meant that everyone will be physically athletic, academically smart, have no sicknesses, just plain perfect. there will be no variety.

Would it be so horrible that no one would be dying of diseases? So horrible that there won't be any more idiots left and no obese lards in McDonalds?

I guess it would be, because you know, we as much variation as possible.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Actually, we were discussing this in my Genetics class, as I said, and my Genetics teacher said that when they chose specific traits of their child, they go in and alter them....meaning that they are already determined but they take the allele out and alter it and then put it back. So, yes, a boy could be changed to a girl.

Ok, well, I doubt the parents would be that mean to their child..if they are, then they are, but that's not due to the genetic alteration. They would have been mean to their child had they genetically altered them or not.

How about my other points?...

[*xcaitlinx*]

wow...this is kinda funny because we were discussing this in lab biology and i was thinking about creating a topic on it.

and i think that it's immoral for many reasons. first off---it's unnatural. i think it's insane how you can distribute specific chromosomes (sp?) and decide whether you want your baby to be a boy or girl. there is always a risk of complications...AND you should love your baby no matter what sex it is.

[yummy_delight]

Its not wiping out genetic variation. Its just changing it. There isn't going to be a human standard or anything, the parents are going to pick certain details and change them. Its not going to be like in Gattaca. For example, the parents might say "I want my son to have blue eyes", but that doesn't mean that every parent in the world will have sons with blue eyes. It will be to the liking of the parents, not to the liking of humanity.

Okay, it wouldn't be doing away with genetic variation because the parents would have the choice of which traits they'd want to change. But that doesn't change the fact that we would be customizing HUMAN BEINGS, not cars or homes. Nature made us a certain way for a reason. Although we have the ability, what right do we have to change the way that people were meant to be, unless doing so would change a potentially sick baby into a healthy one?

[*RiC3xBoy*]

wow...this is kinda funny because we were discussing this in lab biology and i was thinking about creating a topic on it.

and i think that it's immoral for many reasons. first off---it's unnatural. i think it's insane how you can distribute specific chromosomes (sp?) and decide whether you want your baby to be a boy or girl. there is always a risk of complications...AND you should love your baby no matter what sex it is.

What exactly does naturality have to do with morals? The only thing people are changing are the physical features of people. I personally feel that it doesn't affect your morality.

[technicolour]

What exactly does naturality have to do with morals? The only thing people are changing are the physical features of people. I personally feel that it doesn't affect your morality.

I agree..

Naturality is different..

I wear makeup...and that's not natural..so, in your words, it's considered immoral...?

[demolished]

This topic reminds me of anime character. I didn’t know colorful people from anime shows can bring to life. Anything is always possible.

If i ever have a child, i want the hair color to be gray-white-silver.
haha




Anyways, I’m pretty neutral about it but I think parent should keep their children natural. It might affect their future generation family hair color. What if you cannot change the color of an unnatural colored hair? In the future, there are two parents with their own unnatural hair color from birth that forms an ugly color mixture of their kids... or/and changing their color won’t work on unnatural hair color.






There will always be negative effects.
----
nevermind. i'm confused. i dunno if it's change or create.

[yummy_delight]

I agree..

Naturality is different..

I wear makeup...and that's not natural..so, in your words, it's considered immoral...?

But you CHOOSE to wear makeup to change the way you look. The baby in question does not have the choice to choose whether or not they should be changed. The parents are deciding for them.

[demolished]

^
and .. a permanent changes.
Makeup is totally different.

[*AngelicEyz00*]

But you CHOOSE to wear makeup to change the way you look. The baby in question does not have the choice to choose whether or not they should be changed. The parents are deciding for them.

Umm.... the child is not being CHANGED... it's being CREATED a certain way.

[*Programmer*]

^geeek

no need for choosing me and elba can make the perfect baby for you to adopt...

[*RiC3xBoy*]

But you CHOOSE to wear makeup to change the way you look. The baby in question does not have the choice to choose whether or not they should be changed. The parents are deciding for them.

But would do you honestly think people would want to have Down Syndrome or Autism?

[*AngelicEyz00*]

In your dreams, GEEEEEEEK...

Stay on topic.

And I'd rather make babies with my boyfriend.

[*Programmer*]

And I'd rather make babies with my boyfriend.

ours would look better though

and i feel that the race of the baby should be determined by the natural genetics of the father and mother....--

[technicolour]

^ no one said anything about race...

In your dreams, GEEEEEEEK...

Stay on topic.

And I'd rather make babies with my boyfriend.

ha ha ha ha

...A baby couldn't possibly make THE CHOICE though. They can't choose how they want to be. What color eyes they want. Whether they want one nose or the other. Whether they want to be a brilliant mathmatician or a musician.

[illumineering]

Umm.... the child is not being CHANGED... it's being CREATED a certain way.

It's manipulation. That is not synonomyous with creation.

[coconutter]

I want a kid named coco and a boy named stanley and froggie

[coconutter]

GAH DOUBLE POST :(

[Joss-eh-lime]

i kind of scares me to think people will choose there kids genders soon theyll all be blonde haried blue eyed abercrombie models. i think people should just be the way their supposed to. what if it messes up? theyd be...weird

[*AngelicEyz00*]

It's manipulation.  That is not synonomyous with creation.

Ah yes, but the manipulation occurs BEFORE the creation

[ComradeRed]

I don't see what's wrong with it. It's not like they're making teh choice after the child was concieved. It strengthens the human species without hurting anyone.

[*disco infiltrator*]

This topic reminds me of anime character. I didn’t know colorful people from anime shows can bring to life. Anything is always possible. 

If i ever have a child, i want the hair color to be gray-white-silver.
haha 
Anyways, I’m pretty neutral about it but I think parent should keep their children natural. It might affect their future generation family hair color. What if you cannot change the color of an unnatural colored hair?  In the future, there are two parents with their own unnatural hair color from birth that forms an ugly color mixture of their kids... or/and changing their color won’t work on unnatural hair color.
There will always be negative effects.
----
nevermind. i'm confused. i dunno if it's change or create.

They work with alleles already present, so I don't think you can make it an unnatural hair color. It's not making something up. It's changing what's already there.

[mai_z]

They work with alleles already present, so I don't think you can make it an unnatural hair color. It's not making something up. It's changing what's already there.

Albino allele...might not be exact, but it could work...

[offtopic] when'd you change your username?!??!

[*disco infiltrator*]

But they work with alleles already present. You can't just go *poof* and there's an albino allele. Plus, inserting a not-already-present allele would do damage to the structure of the DNA since there would be extra (like in the case of Down syndrome, which occurs when the person ends up with an extra 21st chromosome).

And umm...when everyone else did.

To add some humor to the thread!

Sammi: ooohhh what is it called.....when you have 3 21st chromosomes..d something..
Michael: Down syndrome?
Sammi: there ya go!
Michael: That was out of nowhere. :-P
Sammi: check my post in creating your children.
Sammi: durrr.
Sammi: i sound all smart, it's awesome.
Michael: Sammi, did you just say you wanted to create my children?
Michael: That's so sweet.
Sammi: lol

[emazing]

Hm, this is interesting.
IMO - I think that the sex of a boy or a girl should just come natural, not scientifically adjusted into a guy or a girl.

[*disco infiltrator*]

^ Any reasons why?

[mai_z]

^^^ As far as I know, albino is a recessive mutated allele, so it's possible, you just have to replace both alleles instead of one....

but um, back on topic....

People get amniotic screenings to see if their children will have genetic disabilities or mutations. If they could catch these problems and fix them, why wouldn't they? Then, if that were considered 'moral', then why wouldn't you correct/change anything else you consider undesirable?

[*disco infiltrator*]

But if the allele is not present to work with, they can't use it. One of the parents would have to have that allele.

The way they do this is screening the sperm for a Y-chromosome, which is already present.

Once they can actually fix those genetic mutations, I'm sure they will. However, it's not possible yet.

[*disco infiltrator*]

Refute me, bitches!

[antix10_kos]

I don't think that it is wrong or immoral to choose the sex of your child or to change your child in any way....let's face it, if given a choice between having a child with a disability and having a child without one, some potential parents choose not to have the child. That is considered a medically necessary abortion. Most often, the fetus in question has a rare, incurable, or untreatable disease or condition that poses a threat to its life or its mother's life. Now, some say that abortion, even these cases, is wrong. Others say it's not. Where to draw the line? Some parents could go through and choose NOT to have a child with a disease, say Down's syndrome, because they know that they cannot take care of it or are unwilling to try (selfish, yes. wrong, maybe. immoral, not in my opinion.)

When it comes to genetically modifying our future children, let's see for a moment what genetic modification could lead us to....if you knew that you had a 50/50 chance of producing a child with a rare disease that would effect the rest of their life in a negative way, would you a) choose to have the child on the basis of "every life is worth living", b) have the child, but have to spend the rest of your life caring for your child, and going into tremendous debt to care for it or even having to instutionalize your child, c) test and abort any fetuses that you or your partner are carrying that test positive for such disease, d) go to a genetic specialist and eliminate the genes carrying the disease from the embryo before it is even put into and fertilized inside you or your partner's womb, or e) adopt a child.

If you choose a, then you are taking a moral high road. Most likely, a will turn into b many years down the road when your child requires expensive round-the-clock care and medications and highly trained specialists to live. Plus the costs that you pay for everyday things like clothes, food, cars....c will leave you feeling dirty, can damage the party's body who has the abortions, can eliminate the chance of them being able to carry a child, and can turn into an expensive gamble without the pay-off (healthy child). D will also set you back financially, but will most likely result in the birth of a healthy child. E is a surefire way to insure that you get the child you want, right down to the color of the eyes and the sex...sure, it won't be biologically yours, but it will be a child and it will be a win-win situation. You get what you want (a healthy child who has the features you desire.) The child gets parents and a home. Adoption is safe, healthy, and moral.

I am not here to advocate the genetic pioneering of the human race. I am just presenting a view point that many people are shutting out before it even gets a toe in the door. Earlier, people were speaking of a child thinking that it is imperfect because its parents chose for it to be a girl when it was supposed to be a boy and they changed that through genetic modification...Well, obviously, the parents need to consider the ramifications of modifying their child....they need to sit through counseling before making the choice and agree on a course of action after having the child (if, how and when should they tell the child). Also, they need to check out other options, like adoption, fostering, or using donors (sprem, egg or surrogate mothers) before deciding that a gentically modified child is the road the want to travel down.

Let's not throw genetic modification out the window yet...for the human race to progress, all options need to be considered and researched...people need to see that just because humanity is fine now, doesn't mean it will be if an epidemic illness wipes out half the population. There are many ways in which genetic modification could take place. People don't think about it, but aren't vaccinations modifying your genetics to some degree? If not genetic modifications, then aren't vaccinations at least "unnatural" (biological modifications) because they are supposed to make you immune to diseases that you're not supposed to resist? Americans eat genetically modified food all of the time (unless you closely monitor what you eat and don't consume anything that's not organic.) Now, what makes it ok to make a chicken bigger than "nature intended" but not to change the sex of a child before it is even really "alive"?? There are so many blurry lines here.

That's why there needs to more research and less narrow-mindedness towards exploring and experimenting on humans. More knowledge and trial-and-error will clear up those blurry lines and help us to discover our limitations. Simply shutting the flow of knowledge off will only make us stagnate.

As for the whole allele debate, yes, it would have to be present. However, I'm sure that if genetic modification were to become common, research would be performed and custom genes could probably be made and used to obtain custom features, like "anime hair" or albino features....but these things could be harmful and that's why genetic modification needs to be researched and experiments done to answer questions and lay out some concrete facts for everyone.

[Justingamemaster]

It is completely alright to choose the gender, eye color, whatever about your child because if that's what you believe....then do it! If you have 'moral opposition' towards this 'control' of a child then don't do it...simple as that.

[Olive]

It is completely alright to choose the gender, eye color, whatever about your child because if that's what you believe....then do it!  If you have 'moral opposition' towards this 'control' of a child then don't do it...simple as that.

heh, easy to say. But the question asks you to define your "moral opposition". now thats a bit more challenging

[Olive]

woops double post

This post has been edited by Olive: Oct 15 2005, 05:48 AM