What if we lived in a Utopian society? Options

[Miss Criss]

I know there is a forum for discussion of books, but this is really about more than the book.

Anyhow. Thanks to the recommendation of a friend, I just got finished reading The Giver. Most of you have probably read it in school. After reading it, it made me wonder what it'd be like to live in a utopian society like that. These people in The Giver had everything in their lives controlled-- their families, what they wore, their jobs, everything. They were brainwashed to not really feel love. They couldn't make choices. They didn't even have marriage or sex! You would simply be matched up with a mate and if you wanted children, you'd have to apply for them. You were only allowed to have two children-- one of each gender-- and they were born from the childbearers in the society. Once the children grew up, you never saw your children or your mate again.
Yet, these people were happy this way. Why? Well, one, they were living in oblivion. They knew no other way. But also, they lived without death, war, jealousy, envy, disease, hunger, natural disasters, and so on. Everybody was nice to everybody, nobody was rude, everybody was equal. They had many rules, but the people happily followed them because it kept their society orderly and perfect.
So, I guess my question to you is, would you rather our world be perfect like that or would you rather keep it full of death, disease, and murder just so you could make your own choices?
Now, I know what you're going to say-- "Oh, but I can't live without love and my choices...blah blah blah.." These people don't know what they're missing. If you were living that way, you wouldn't know either. Put aside all thoughts of you and what'd you want right now. Just think. How the world would be so much better. Right now, we're no sooner to solving world hunger, to bringing peace to our world, or to stopping the murders and rapes occuring all over the world. And you know what? It'll only be 100 times worse in the future! All problems we're faced with would be gone.

Yet. The other argument we're faced with is, we'd all be a bunch of human clones. What would be the purpose of life?

So, what say you?

[snak3y3z1001]

death, war, jealousy, envy, disease, hunger, natural disasters, and so on.

[Miss Criss]

Are you saying you'd choose those over a perfect world?
Or did you just feel like copying and pasting a random sentence from my thread...?

[snak3y3z1001]

rather live in a world with

death, war, jealousy, envy, disease, hunger, natural disasters, and so on.

[*incoherent*]

i didnt read that because it was long, but i got the jist from the title and "the giver" being underlined. we read the giver back in 8th grade and that was one of the only books i liked. it would be really weird to live like that.

(they're actually trying to get that book banned at schools by my house)

[iheartsimba]

I read that book..but like you said..we would just be a bunch of human clones. I think the world we live..with hunger,disease,death, ect...is better. We can think to a deeper extent. I really would choose that over this "perfect" society..because there really isn't such a thing as perfect. I suppose it sounds nice in theory, but it would just be so repetitive..and overplayed. I need some excitement in life! I would go insane if everything was so perfect..

[Miss Criss]

But the thing is, you wouldn't realize what excitement was. You wouldn't realize what you'd be missing. Everything would be perfect, because you'd be living in oblivion...

[Nightmare_Phoeni...]

if we lived in a utopian world, we'd be screwed when aliens inevitably invade

[jue]

i read the giver; it was a good book :D

if our world was like that; i think it be a little too boring. but then theres world peace? or country peace? but i think thats lifestyles too boring. i guess its cause of what im used to

[*mona lisa*]

I think I would live in a Utopian society. If I didn't have any knowledge on what its like to live in a world with war, famine, disease etc. then I wouldn't know what excitement is. I wouldn't know what its like to be in love or give birth. Life would be meaningless and uneventful, but if I didn't know any better, then it's fine...right. I guess. I mean, I wouldn't have known that I was living as a human clone. I hope that made sense.

[Miss Criss]

I think I would live in an Utopian society. If I didn't have any knowledge on what its like to live in a world with war, famine, disease etc. then I wouldn't know what excitement is. I wouldn't know what its like to be in love or give birth. Life would be meaningless and uneventful, but if I didn't know any better, then it's fine...right. I guess. I mean, I wouldn't have known that I was living as a human clone. I hope that made sense.

Yeah, that made sense. That's the point I'm trying to make. If you didn't KNOW, wouldn't it just be better?


Oh, and by the way, so for the grammar error in the title. I had a brain fart and I can't edit it.

[*mona lisa*]

Oh, and by the way, so for the grammar error in the title. I had a brain fart and I can't edit it. 

Should it be "an" Utopian you mean? I'm not sure. It's weird with the letter 'u'. It doesn't really matter, but I can edit it for you if you want.

[jennyjenny]

yeah, AND they had like pills for their hormones so they couldn't like anyone or anything.

I mean, it seems good in a way because then there will be none of that crap that worries and stresses people out, but to me that's the meaning of life. I would rather grow old and tell my grandchildren about the stories of my life rather than only having one person tell it and that's it for everyone else. Seems boring.

[Miss Criss]

Should it be "an" Utopian you mean? I'm not sure. It's weird with the letter 'u'. It doesn't really matter, but I can edit it for you if you want.

Please do. I'm something of a perfectionist. I feel like an idiot as it is.



Yeah, the pill thing kind of makes sense, though. Just like greed ruins people, so does sex. Without sex, you eliminate many of the world's problems.
But I wonder....who had sex with the childbearers? Or did they have some scientific way of getting them pregnant?

[*tweeak*]

I have a headache, so I'll save all deep thoughts on this topic for a later date, but I must say that I adore The Giver. I've read it about 6 times not, stemming from elementary school, with the last time being in 8th grade for class (which was curious, that I read books for 8th grade gifted that I had 4 years prior) and it's a brilliantly thought provoking book for such an easy read. Gathering Blue, by the same author was along the same lines and also lovely.

Criss, by the way, you can edit your own topic titles now

[Miss Criss]

I can? It wouldn't let me edit when I tried earlier.

[*mipadi*]

The concept of The Giver, though, is that, while it seems perfect, it is not a utopian society; it is, in fact, a dystopia.

Should it be "an" Utopian you mean? I'm not sure. It's weird with the letter 'u'. It doesn't really matter, but I can edit it for you if you want.

It's actually generally constructed as "a utopia", since "utopia" begins with a "yoo" sound.

[melface]

I'd rather die than live in either one.

[*tweeak*]

I can? It wouldn't let me edit when I tried earlier.

You should be able to at the top when you edit a post

[*mona lisa*]

It's actually generally constructed as "a utopia", since "utopia" begins with a "yoo" sound.

Thanks. =)

[Hell-Rell]

Don't tell me you liked the giver? That book was confusing and boring.

[*tweeak*]

No, it was neither of the above. You're just dumb and ignorant


<--is aggressive

[`SWTWiNKLE3YES]

oh i read that book in 7th grade. i think living in a utopian city wouldnt be nice. i mean they didnt have a lotta freedom;

[*mipadi*]

Well, I noted this before, but the concept behind The Giver is that it isn't really a utopia; it seems perfect at first, but a closer examination reveals that it is a dystopian society, not a utopian one.

Living in a utopia--a perfect society--would be wonderful, but the society presented in The Giver can't really be presented as a utopian society, because it isn't in fact perfect. That's one of the concepts--that the homogenization of the society has removed the uniqueness, and in doing so, the society still isn't perfect; in fact, one might even say it is less perfect than our society today.

[Miss Criss]

But Mipadi, what is perfect? Nearly everything at first glance can seem perfect but once you look deeper, it never is.

Don't tell me you liked the giver? That book was confusing and boring.

Is there a problem with me liking it? It's my opinion, after all. And it's rather sad that it confused you since most people read it in middle school. Says a lot about your intelligence.

[*mipadi*]

But Mipadi, what is perfect? Nearly everything at first glance can seem perfect but once you look deeper, it never is.

Well, that's precisely one of the points of The Giver.

[*tweeak*]

Right, that is the point, so you can't really expect Utopia not to become Dystopia

[xmkaex]

no need to be perfect...

[Miss Criss]

I'm just saying, how can there be a real utopian society if nothing is ever perfect?

[*mipadi*]

I'm just saying, how can there be a real utopian society if nothing is ever perfect?

Utopia is a purely theoretical construct; it's not expected that such a society will ever come about.

[Miss Criss]

But you're saying that if I call it an utopian society is wrong, because, technically, it isn't. So, does that mean any society ever called utopian is incorrect?
Hmm.

This is fun. =]

[*tweeak*]

But this entire subject of utopia is theoretical, so it's only theoretically impossible as well

[*mipadi*]

But you're saying that if I call it an utopian society is wrong, because, technically, it isn't. So, does that mean any society ever called utopian is incorrect?
Hmm.

This is fun. =]

No, utopia is a literary construct used to describe a theoretically perfect society. It's theoretical, but most people could at least agree on the basics of such a society (absence of war, poverty, violence, hate, etc.).

[Miss Criss]

But people have tried creating utopian societies in the past and have even labeled it as Utopian. Take Amos Bronson Alcott, for example. He and Charles Lane (and some others, I believe) created a Utopian society. It certainly didn't last very long, but it is still called a Utopian society, whether it truly was or wasn't.

[xmkaex]

this reminds me of this movie i had watch...where something happens to this perfect place and things started to change...im unsure of the movie title tho.

[*mipadi*]

Well, when we discuss "real-world utopias" we're starting to move out of the realm of the literary construct, such as the one used in The Giver. There have been communities set up in the attempt to create a "perfect" society that have been referred to (incorrectly) as utopias, but the idea of actually creating a community is a slightly different discussion than utopias used in the literary sense.

[*tweeak*]

But if it was able to fall apart that quickly, was it truly utopian? If that's the case, couldn't another society be perfect, if only for a moment? And if that's the case, could it count? Does perfection matter if it doesn't last long enough to really take effect?

[*mipadi*]

Are we discussing "real-word utopias" or literary utopias? As for literary utopias, I think they are generally used as long-lasting societies, not ones that exist for a moment in time and then collapse.

One could also argue that something that can't last isn't truly perfect.

[Miss Criss]

I understand your point, Mipadi. However, the point of this topic really isn't about the book itself. It's about whether the world would be better as a "real-world" utopia. Although the society in The Giver proved that utopias are far from perfect, it'd still be a lot closer to perfection than our world currently is.
What do you say?

[BOOGERSHAHA]

I'd rather live in the world of The Giver, under one condition: I would have no memory of living in this world thus far. If I would suddenly be able to go into that society, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to stand it.

However, if I had no recollection of the real world, I'd be blissfully ignorant and content.

[Miss Criss]

*claps hands together*
By God, you got the point of this topic!

[lilliannnn]

No, it would be terrible. Obviously, you've read The Giver. I didn't really like that book but I'm interested in reading more about uptopias/distopias.

[BOOGERSHAHA]

*claps hands together*
By God, you got the point of this topic!

woot!
but no seriously..who wouldn't want to be blissfully ignorant and happy than live in this world as it is now with murder, disease, and disaster? "oh but we can't have sex, we can't love blah blah" but it wouldn't be a loss because you wouldn't know how it felt in the first place!

[Miss Criss]

Je like french, I declare you my new best friend.

Lilliannn, [go here].

[Levy2k6]

i've never read the Giver and i wouldnt like a utopia.. I rather live in japan.. closest to perfect there is.. lol.

[*xcaitlinx*]

i LOVED the giver! i read it back in 7th grade. I thought it was very interesting even though I'd never want to live in a world like that.

[*tweeak*]

woot!
but no seriously..who wouldn't want to be blissfully ignorant and happy than live in this world as it is now with murder, disease, and disaster? "oh but we can't have sex, we can't love blah blah" but it wouldn't be a loss because you wouldn't know how it felt in the first place!

right! It's a bit like smoking- it's perfectly easy to live without it if you don't try them to begin with. My curiosity is perfectly sated, because I know it's better to stay ignorant to it.

Mmmmm. Yes. I think I've lost track of my point again.

[mai_z]

The world would be great as a utopia, if it actually ran as a utopia, and you could get it to be like that in the first place. To convert the world into a utopia would take some serious brainwashing or a lot of violence, and then everyone would have to have their memories wiped, because it's human nature to want choices, but if you don't know the choices exist, you'd be perfectly happy.

Ignorance is bliss.

[*mipadi*]

*claps hands together*
By God, you got the point of this topic!

So, is the point of this thread to discuss whether we'd want to live in the "utopia" of The Giver, or an actual utopia? Because, again, the utopia of The Giver is not a utopia at all, which is the basis of the book. So do you mean that utopia, or a real utopia? Because, clearly, by definition, there'd be nothing bad about living in a real utopia--it would, by definition, be perfect.

[Miss Criss]

You got me there, Mipadi.

I suppose I meant a society nearly identical to the one created in the book.

[mai_z]

I think if I was born into The Giver (the book...like I was a character in the book) I would be fine with it because it would have been all I ever known. With Jonas (that is his name isn't it?...it's been a long time) I think the meds just wrong and he has hormonal problems, that's why he's *special*.

[Miss Criss]

*falls over laughing*
Yeah, I wouldn't fancy taking those pills too much.
And yes, his name was Jonas...and well, if he was special or not...hmm..
This is making me giggle for some reason.
*frolics away*

[hall0w]

id rahter go to north korea

[Aoiro]

Though this does sound alittle bit like how it is today.
Just a little bit.

[Miss Criss]

How does it sound like today? Last time I checked, I can make most of my own choices.

[aznxdreamer]

i would kill myself if i lived in a world like that and knew what the rest of the world was like or once lived in the ouside world.