Homosexual, //what if...? Options

[sadolakced acid]

there is no contradiction. that's what troubles me; they can have a contradiction in order to kill people and capture land, but refuse to have a contradiction to encourage thier fellow humans to be treated equally.

[Spirited Away]

I see.

Perhaps this is where the famed "free will" comes in. Maybe, just maybe, the Christian God wanted individuals to know for themselves whether or not homosexuality and sodomy should be tied together or not. If tied together, then they shouldn't be treated equally. If not tied together, then homosexuals should treated like anyone else. And that is why we have those who accept it, and those who do not accept it.




You'll notice that I'm not making any sense. That is because I don't think religion makes much sense so it's hard to argue from that point of view.

[sadolakced acid]

well, it might be a bit easyier to argue that side if you didn't use religon... because religon itself is disputed.

like...

the fact remains that homosexuality is not a usual natural thing. nothing comes from it, no food, no shelter, no next generation. in fact, if there were a nation (2000 years ago) where homosexuality was not looked down upon, and the king's only sons were homosexual, what would happen? for hereditary lines and kingdoms and such, homosexuality would be the equivalent of death. enter the 21st century, america. The american dream is what people want promoted, and therefore that's why the marraige benifts were added, so that children would more likely be in a good family of a father and a mother. if the marraige benefit were to be extended to homosexual couples, the american dream might be compromised. what if the homosexual couple (let's say men) were to adopt a girl? who would teach her how to be a girl? or what if one of them had a daughter when they were in the closet and trying to 'be' straight? and the mother was dead? the homosexual lifestyle is not something that americans wish to promote, and therefore there should not be a reward for having that lifestyle.

` yes i know i just switched sides. my beliefs remain, i'm just arguing this side for a second.

[Spirited Away]

Oh, I would do fine without arguing with religion. I know for sure what my take is on this particular topic, which was once staunchly against to now against with allowance for exceptions. I think I started out with taking the side of religion because that was what the debate was leading into... oh well.

[sadolakced acid]

hmmm... i guess i'll try my hand at the religous side then...

in the bible it says 'thou shalt not lie with a man as one would lie with a woman'
god has made is views known... if you were created gay by god, there must have been a reason, but that does not mean it is ok to go commit sins.

err... this is hard...

[Spirited Away]

err... this is hard...

You see? But it's kind of interesting.

I would oppose for the heck of it, but for the first time in my CB experience, I'm at a loss as to how to go about that argument. I'll brainstorm. Something ought to come up.

[CrimsonArchangel]

Can I add my two cents to get my mind away from my great desire to murder a backstabbing bastard and his little pet?

That said, consider this. What if humans are all created the same, however, there are some that due to nature AND nurture, develop certain homosexual tendencies but they CHOOSE not to follow them? Let me open this up. It has been discovered that, while there is no such thing as a "gay gene" (I'm not going to say just yet, because we live in a world that's constantly changing...), there are things that can cause a person to develop homosexual tendencies later in life, those being abnormal hormone leves at conception and birth, being male (don't bite me here, I'll explain this one in a sec), and some other things that my brain just cannot reach right now (I had to write a paper on this, I'm just too worked up to try to remember all of them). Adding to this, there is good old nurture. A girl that is treated like a boy, likes rough play and is not your typical girly girl (there are exceptions to this rule because I can say that I somewhat fall under the last two statements and I am very straigth and happy) CAN develop (I'm not saying WILL develop) lesbian tendencies the same way a boy that is not treated like one and does not like rough play and the such CAN develop gay tendencies. So put nature AND nurture together and a person experiences strong homosexual feelings and desires. That person can MAKE THE CHOICE to either fall to those tendencies or not, and I say this because I've seen it happen. In conclusion, I believe both nature and nurture are in play, but it is the person's will that determines the outcome. And I also believe that it is not right to hate homosexual people... they are just people with a twisted view on things (MY OPINION and I think I'm entitled to it).

Now, to explain the whole "being male can lead to gay tendencies" thing. It has been discovered (again, I would state the study, date and place, but for reasons stated above, I just cannot remember it right now... will look it up) that when a woman has several male children, her body starts to slightly reject them (being the opposite sex). I explain myself. There are enough changes done to a woman's body with the conception of a child. Several boys in succession cause a woman's hormones to go a bit haywire, so her body thinking that it not longer wants a foreign creature (a boy, sorry if this sounds harsh... I just don't know any other way to put it) it starts to try to make it... natural... not so foreign... so that can increase the level of female hormones a fetus receives.

Did that make sense? I'm just not making sense to myself right now... I'm too pissed off...

[Spirited Away]

That was wonderful, Angel, and yes it made sense especially this part: What if humans are all created the same, however, there are some that due to nature AND nurture, develop certain homosexual tendencies but they CHOOSE not to follow them?

But, once again, I think that's a question for God to answer.

Kill the backstabbing fool but don't kill it the pet.

[CrimsonArchangel]

Why, thank you, Fae! That makes me feel so much better. And I am starting to feel a bit more merciful (just a bit) towards the pet, but the backstabber will die eventually. I caught him yesterday in an outright lie. Ah, well. Man kind disappoints me.

About what I said. It seems like a perfectly plausible explanation given the fact that there are proofs for both sides of the matter: nature AND nurture play a part. But there are also people out there that can and will tell you that their greatest desire is to sleep with a person of the same sex, but they however choose not to do it.

Life is a confusing thing.
I hope I did ok in my Anatomy final....

[Spirited Away]

Why, thank you, Fae! That makes me feel so much better.  And I am starting to feel a bit more merciful (just a bit) towards the pet, but the backstabber will die eventually. I caught him yesterday in an outright lie. Ah, well. Man kind disappoints me.

Mankind is flawed, we just have to go out there and make the best of it and make up for what others are lacking . I hope the fool didn't do anything too hurtful. Why I spoke for the pet is that I think pets are stuck being loyal to their masters so I didn't think the pet is at fault.

About what I said. It seems like a perfectly plausible explanation given the fact that there are proofs for both sides of the matter: nature AND nurture play a part. But there are also people out there that can and will tell you that their greatest desire is to sleep with a person of the same sex, but they however choose not to do it.

That's really an answer that we all should consider as a possibility. It does play right into to nature and nurture though I think it leans more heavily towards nurture since there is choice involved.

Hmmmm.

I hope I did ok in my Anatomy final....

I was lucky. I thought I was in for a C in one of my classes since I failed my first two exams, but since I made such a high grade on my final, I got a B average for the class!
I hope you did okay on your Anatomy final, too.

[CrimsonArchangel]

I hope the fool didn't do anything too hurtful. Why I spoke for the pet is that I think pets are stuck being loyal to their masters so I didn't think the pet is at fault.

Well, what he did was go out with the girl his best friend really liked and then lie about the whole thing (me catching him lying). Why that hurt me is because he involved me and my sister into the whole crap. Ah well. He's gone and I won't see him until next year, so its all good.

That's really an answer that we all should consider as a possibility. It does play right into to nature and nurture though I think it leans more heavily towards nurture since there is choice involved.

That is *exactly* what I think. While nature might play a part, nurture is the one that causes the turn arounds. Society is shaped by the choices we make, I just don't see why homosexuality is not one of them.

I was lucky. I thought I was in for a C in one of my classes since I failed my first two exams, but since I made such a high grade on my final, I got a B average for the class!
I hope you did okay on your Anatomy final, too.

Well congrats to you, Miss Fae! That must have felt so good, lol. I'm gonna check my grades today, hoping they're all posted. Good luck with all your other grades!

[luvnspecialsaus]

1. How do you feel about it? Is it okay? Is it wrong?
I'm fine with it. I mean, sure if all of a sudden one of my best friends confessed that he or she is gay, then I'd be kind of weirded out at first. It's hard to see your friend like that, you know? I think it's okay. It's just how some people are. There's this big dispute over whether it's a choice or not. I don't think it is, but I don't really have any personal insight into it, either.

2. What if you knew someone for years... and then you find out that they were gay/lesbian... would that change the way you feel about them? Would you still respect them?
hah I guess I already answered that. But of course I'd still respect them- they're still the same person.

3. Should it be legal for them to marry?
I really don't know. I've always thought of marriage as a 'procreative union', but I'd never really thought about gay marriage until the whole big issue about it came up. Maybe a civil union or whatever, which is basically the same thing?

Well, in any case, I'm for it.

[heyyfrankie]

i think that is should be legal. marriage is about love, not gender.

[sammi rules you]

*points to signature*

[rnrn897]

i hate question 1 & 2 so i skip it

3. yes it should be legal. its not like there wont be any gay ppl if u stop gay marriage, its not like its gonna stop them from being gay, so jus legalize it!!.

[aznxdreamer]

1. How do you feel about it? Is it okay? Is it wrong?
i feel that gay people should have the right to marry whoever they want. it doesnt effect anyone else unless your gay. and if you were gay, you would want to be able to marry the person you love right? it is okay and no, it is not wrong.

2. What if you knew someone for years... and then you find out that they were gay/lesbian... would that change the way you feel about them? Would you still respect them?
i would respect them no matter what. infact, i dated this guy for about half a year, found out last year he was gay. but i still respect him.
3. Should it be legal for them to marry?
yes

[aznxdreamer]

*points to signature*

where did you get your avatar?

sorry..double posting. dont kill me

[Rationality]

some straight people ask for tangible reasons for why gays and lesbians should marry,
i want a reason why straight people can marry

[Spirited Away]

some straight people ask for tangible reasons for why gays and lesbians should marry,
i want a reason why straight people can marry 

Well, the answer is obvious as to why straight people can, but homosexuals can be married, too, by common law.

[sadolakced acid]

the answer isn't obvious...

what is marraige, anyways, that only certain types of couples may have it?

[jr0h]

1. How do you feel about it? Is it okay? Is it wrong?
its wrong but i dont want to blame them

2. What if you knew someone for years... and then you find out that they were gay/lesbian... would that change the way you feel about them? Would you still respect them?
i'd help them and still respect them. i cant treat them differently for who they chooes to be.

3. Should it be legal for them to marry?
i don't want that happening. what if the whole world goes gay!

[Spirited Away]

the answer isn't obvious...

Yes, it is. They can because the law allows them to. That is quite obvious to me.

what is marraige, anyways, that only certain types of couples may have it?

For the umpteenth time, marriage is a cultural constitution. Law defines it, but people break laws, people have their own laws. Remember in our "killing animals for art" discussion, I said that there are laws set by the government and then there are laws set by the human heart.

If a two men tell me that they are married, I would never deny the fact that they are married because I acknowledge marriage as something beyond government. Just like my friends are common law married and I accept them as husband and wife as much as I would a couple who shoves a written document to my face saying that they are legally married. Actually, I would respect the fact that I can see the love my friends share proves their union more so than a document. And that's why I don't see why homosexuals want their marriage, something more powerful than a few pieces of paper, to be legal in the eyes of the law. What is marriage to them? Does marriage means those sheet of papers that document them as husband and wife?

Lately, I've developed an attitude of "just let it go if they want those papers so badly" with homosexual marriages even though I don't wholely agree with it.

Now then, if a couple, doesn't matter straight or not, tells me they are married BY LAW but they hurt each other like crazy, I wouldn't see them husband and wife.

[sadolakced acid]

yea, that post was a quick one so i didn't have a chance to support it...


it isn't obvious.

the only reasons people can get married stem from tradition. this has been set in religous and secular law, but it is still tradition. Why have married couples? why not just people who visit from time to time and have babies?

it isn't obvious what the first reason to allow marraige was, and all other reasons stem from that. why did humans choose to have marraiges? and what allowed them to?

that we may never know.


what is marraige that only certain couples can have it?

there was no text, previously, that said it was between a man and a woman. yet how can you deny them marraiges then?

i've never been a firm supporter of gay marraiges, what do you call your spouse? but still, it should be an option.

many straight couples choose not to have a legal marriage. why cannot gays have this choice?

what is marraige?

yes, it's a cultural construction. but what happens when culture changes? it not it a tradition, which can change, if only gradually?

but in our culture, marraige has benifits, and it's not purely a cultural thing.

[sadolakced acid]

excuse the double post:

ripped this off a blog i found...

Why homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to get married:

1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.

3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name, are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.

[Spirited Away]

[quote=sadolakced acid,Dec 22 2004, 2:19 PM] yea, that post was a quick one so i didn't have a chance to support it... 
[/quote]
Yea, I figured you had more to say.

[quote]it isn't obvious.  [/quote]

Perhaps it's point of view, I guess? Things are that obvious to me.

[quote]the only reasons people can get married stem from tradition.  this has been set in religous and secular law, but it is still tradition.  Why have married couples?  why not just people who visit from time to time and have babies?  [/quote]

Traditions? Tradition is parents sending their daughters, and in some rare cases parents sending their sons, to mate and take care of their chosen partner. Yea, I know there are more variations, I'm just using this as an example.

Tradition is valuing women's virginity. You can't really jump from one guy to another without being called a whore. So then you live in one man's house and have his kids and they call it marriage. If the couple don't see it as marriage and tells me that they're not husband and wife, then oh well, they're not. Yes, I'll take their word for it. If a couple live together with no kids and they tell me they're not married, I'll take their word for it, too.


[quote]it isn't obvious what the first reason to allow marraige was, and all other reasons stem from that.    why did humans choose to have marraiges? and what allowed them to?

that we may never know.   [/quote]

Note that the government proves a marriage "legal", however, even if the marriage is legal, it need not to be a real marriage.

You know that there are many people who marry foreigners for money and in return the foreigners get citizenship? Yea, they're legally married even though they're cheating the system, but they're not married by human standards (ie. love, loyalty, trust... etc).


[quote]what is marraige that only certain couples can have it?  [/quote]

EVERYONE CAN BE MARRIED by human standards, by tradition. It is those who pursue those paper documents that are having problems.

If I'm living with the father of my children, and I love him "til death do us part", and I tell you that we're married by common law, would you deny me the title of being his wife? Personally, I wouldn't if I were you because I believe that love isn't something that government can regulate.

Likewise, government cannot regulate what is considered by many to be a product of nature, not nurture. And if homosexuals come about by nurture, government cannot regulate who they are, or who they choose to be.


[quote]there was no text, previously, that said it was between a man and a woman.  yet how can you deny them marraiges then? [/quote]

...

What I've been saying ALL along was that there are human standards of marriage, and government standards of marriage.


[quote]i've never been a firm supporter of gay marraiges, what do you call your spouse?  but still, it should be an option.  [/quote]

Once again, if man and man tell me that they're married, I'm not going to argue that because it would make no sense to me. However, if they tell me that they're legally married, then I would question that.

Like I noted earlier with Thomas Paine's quote from his book--Common Sense--which explain the necessity of government in its first few pages, "time makes more converts than reason" does yield relevancy to our discussion. Government is flawed because it's operated by those who are flawed--humans. Humans are ruled by time. Everyone changes with time and even government will eventually change.


[quote]many straight couples choose not to have a legal marriage.  why cannot gays have this choice?  [/quote]

They do have the choice of not marrying legally... I thought their pursuit is legal marriages? I'm confused.

[quote]what is marraige?  [/quote]

Marriage is defined differently. There are those who think papers can prove their marriage, and there are those, like me, who think marriages are beyond marriage licenses issued by the govt.

[quote]yes, it's a cultural construction.  but what happens when culture changes?  it not it a tradition, which can change, if only gradually?  [/quote]

Homosexuality is becoming a culture, if not already. Again, they can be married by culture and it would just be as meaningful as a marriage license. I don't understand why they would want to have a legal marriage if not for tax perks.

[quote]but in our culture, marraige has benifits, and it's not purely a cultural thing.[/quote]

Benefits? Like tax?


I know the things you took off of the blog was satire, but it was very badly done.
[quote]1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.[/quote]

That's a stupid, childish comment from someone who obviously resent those who hold different opinions.

[quote]2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs more children.[/quote]

Once again, very childish.

[quote]3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.[/quote]

Who believes that?

[quote]4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage is allowed, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.[/quote]

Not everyone who's anti-homosexual marriages think that Spear's first marriage is meaningful, if a marriage at all. Poor job of generalizing.

[quote]5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.[/quote]

This one ruins the whole effect of what whoever wrote this dumb thing is trying to accomplish.

One, time changes all those things, therefore, expect time to change people's attitude about homosexuals.


[quote]6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.[/quote]

This doesn't even make sense.

[quote]8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

10. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.[/quote]

Once more, this is all very poorly done. There are those who are stupid enough to believe that gay people will encourage others to be gay or children cannot succeed without male and female parents. HOWEVER, in the intelligent world, people do not believe that crap. Why poke fun at those who are stupid enough to believe those when the target should be those who have reasons aside those things?

[quote]11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name, are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
[/quote]

... Again, targeting the wrong group of people.

Here's one of my own, not to say that I'm against homosexual marriages, but to defend the other side's point of view:

Homosexuals should be allowed to be married and they should be able to have written documents, to shove in homophobics faces, to prove their love and marriage. Yes, only those pieces of paper can prove their love and the validity of their marriages.