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Equal Opportunity for Minorities
DoubleJ
post Feb 3 2008, 03:58 PM
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I am sure a topic like this already exists, but I really don't give a f**k. I will layout the background of the story for you and then the question.

So I am on a forum at my other forum site and I am really shocked at what I am reading. In the northeastern states, they have a practice of hiring more minorities because they have a quota to fill. Nowhere does it exist more than in my state of New Jersey. They actually have a law, that says that fire departments have to hire a certain amount of minorities every year. My beef is that there are alot of whites who feel as though the law is stupid because it can take a white guy who is very qualified and put him behind a black or hispanic guy who is less qualified like me. People are really upset over this because they think that minorities should not get special treatment just because they are minorities. They feel as though they should have to go through the same type of treatment that the whites should. Some think that it is an unfair system and should be changed. Others, like me, think that it is fair especially when the white guys who don't live in the city come in and steal jobs. I guess my question would be this, do you guys think that it is fair for not only state employers, but employers in general to hire minorities over whites even if they are less qualified?
 
*paperplane*
post Feb 3 2008, 04:20 PM
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In most areas, racial quotas have been ruled unconstitutional.
Now, I don't think racial quotas are fair. But I do think they're justified. There are still large inequalities between races, and especially as racism still exist, affirmative action programs are needed to reach a relative level of equality. As Justice O'Connor said in a court case (that I really need to go learn more about before Tuesday), they are needed and acceptable now, but should not still be in place in a few years. At that point, affirmative action should need to be gotten rid of because either it would actually be unfair to the majority, or if things are not more equal, the measures obviously aren't working and need to be gotten rid of in favor of a new plan.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 3 2008, 04:44 PM
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I mean, I think that racial quotas are justified in certain instances. Like for example: The Jersey City fire department has roughly 600 firefighter person ell, not including dispatchers and what not. Now, out of all of those people, 100 - 120 of them are minorities. Now most people say well what is the big deal with that. When you have a department in a community where roughly 72 percent of the population is made up of minorities, it seems to be a bit unfair. I just find it strange that people really think that the racial quota law or what have you, is really unfair. I mean do I necessarily agree with it, to an extent I do, but I also believe that minorities have been long overdue their fare share and equal treatment as well.
 
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post Feb 3 2008, 04:50 PM
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Well, you do also have to consider how many minorities are applying for particular jobs, though.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 3 2008, 05:06 PM
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True indeed, and it is jut not minority when it comes to skin color, but is also sex. Females are also getting the shaft in certain places.
 
NoSex
post Feb 3 2008, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE(DoubleJ @ Feb 3 2008, 04:06 PM) *
True indeed, and it is jut not minority when it comes to skin color, but is also sex. Females are also getting the shaft in certain places.


Females aren't technically a minority.
 
*Steven*
post Feb 3 2008, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE
So I am on a forum at my other forum site and I am really shocked at what I am reading. In the northeastern states, they have a practice of hiring more minorities because they have a quota to fill. Nowhere does it exist more than in my state of New Jersey. They actually have a law

AA?
 
*Steven*
post Feb 3 2008, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE(paperplane @ Feb 3 2008, 03:20 PM) *
In most areas, racial quotas have been ruled unconstitutional.
Now, I don't think racial quotas are fair. But I do think they're justified. There are still large inequalities between races, and especially as racism still exist, affirmative action programs are needed to reach a relative level of equality. As Justice O'Connor said in a court case (that I really need to go learn more about before Tuesday), they are needed and acceptable now, but should not still be in place in a few years. At that point, affirmative action should need to be gotten rid of because either it would actually be unfair to the majority, or if things are not more equal, the measures obviously aren't working and need to be gotten rid of in favor of a new plan.

I hate affirmative action. That and "hate crimes"
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 3 2008, 11:58 PM
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QUOTE(NoSex @ Feb 3 2008, 05:14 PM) *
Females aren't technically a minority.

When they apply for certain job fields, the definitely are.

QUOTE(Steven @ Feb 3 2008, 05:40 PM) *
AA?

No Steven you clown lol, it was a forum on www.firehouse.com.
 
Mikael
post Feb 4 2008, 12:49 AM
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This post has been edited for security reasons.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 01:15 AM
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^Exactly. Affirmative action to me is very good because it sets an even bar for everybody, but I will admit, that there are some instances, where the law does not serve its purpose.
 
NoSex
post Feb 4 2008, 02:28 PM
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I'm against quotas based on skin color (I know a f**k load of black kids that have more money and more opportunity than I do) and more so for quotas based on economic class (I know a f**k load of white kids that have less money and less opportunity that a shit load of black kids).
But, in either case, it's all a f**king smoke screen. If you morons haven't realized it yet, it's curing the symptom, but not the disease.

What needs to be done is an entire revamping of the educational system and a full-fledged war against poverty. Our government needs to take responsibility for abandoning the ghettos. We need to ensure that schools can afford the necessities and that, further, kids have the means to learn in a safe environment while being able to concentrate on Calculus homework as opposed to paying the bills and finding food to eat.

f**k affirmative action man, that shit is racist.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 03:21 PM
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Whoa, calling us morons is a little bit much no? I am totally behind you that the government has long neglected the ghetto and poverty stricken areas of the United States and something needs to be done about it. With that being said, I am fully behind affirmative action if it is being applied in the way that it was meant to be used. I mean come on let's be honest here, minorities definitely have it tougher than whites do. I was actually trying to base this on employment in a sense, but you bringing it to a point even before that is very good, but I don't think it actually goes in with what is being discussed right now. I mean, there isn't going to be affirmative action at high school or anything like that. The point that I was trying to make in some of my posts, is that whites complain about affirmative action when it comes to minorities getting preference, but honestly, I believe that the law is definitely correct in it's purpose. My situation is the perfect example. Affirmative action does not only apply to just race either. When applying for civil service positions in NYC, if you are a resident of the five boroughs, you get bonus points as opposed to people who live in long island or NY state. The point is, that people aren't always going to agree with it, but I believe that the law is necessary to stop the bullshit treatment that minorities experience. Another thing, why is it that when people say minorities, they automatically think of blacks? What about hispanics and asians.
 
*paperplane*
post Feb 4 2008, 04:01 PM
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I was going to get into economic quotas in my last post, but I wasn't sure how that was applicable to a lot of things. In terms of education, economic quotas have been ruled acceptable, while race based ones have not. But also, as was mentioned by someone, the complete opposite is true of gender; because women are generally better students, I know that my school's admissions rubric definitely used to give extra points to males. I'm sure technical schools skew their admissions in favor of women, to keep from having a completely abysmal ratio (I'm fairly certain GA Tech does).

Um, but as far as "minorities" goes, the instinct is to discuss blacks, because given the history of African Americans, they have been more severely disadvantaged and need more help overcoming the prejudices in the job market and whatnot. Hispanics don't have the same history, but are certainly not aided now by the xenophobia being spawned by illegal immigrants. And as for Asians, that generally doesn't tend to be much of an issue. I think as far as they are concerned, the general public has a greater fear of them getting educated here and then taking their knowledge back to their home country. Not to be racist in any way personally, but we are discussing unfairness here.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE(paperplane @ Feb 4 2008, 04:01 PM) *
Um, but as far as "minorities" goes, the instinct is to discuss blacks, because given the history of African Americans, they have been more severely disadvantaged and need more help overcoming the prejudices in the job market and whatnot. Hispanics don't have the same history, but are certainly not aided now by the xenophobia being spawned by illegal immigrants. And as for Asians, that generally doesn't tend to be much of an issue. I think as far as they are concerned, the general public has a greater fear of them getting educated here and then taking their knowledge back to their home country. Not to be racist in any way personally, but we are discussing unfairness here.

You definitely broke that part down better than I could have.
 
*Steven*
post Feb 4 2008, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE(DoubleJ @ Feb 4 2008, 03:04 PM) *
You definitely broke that part down better than I could have.

your sig is ginormous
 
brooklyneast05
post Feb 4 2008, 06:03 PM
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tough topic. i used to show a bit more sympathy towards it but i'm fully over that now. i'm against affirmative action. i agree with others who have said economic class is more of an issue than race.

reducing poverty and improving education will improve it all. lower class people need to have access to the same opportunities and education from the start. we can't be unequal for the first 18 years, and then somehow try to balance that unfairness out by lowering the standards for their entrance to college. that's setting them up for failure. not to mention like others have said, the smart well off minorities are just using it to their advantage. as a whole it's not improving anything.

i think affirmative action has outworn it's welcome. i think it certainly was needed 20 or 30 years ago to get a foot in the door for minorities so they would have the chance to prove themselves. today? not so much.

yeah there is still racism and discrimination but i don't believe this fixes it at all. all it does is lower the standards so minorities can continue to drag their feet and hang around with their continuous low standards. at some point or another we have to get over it and stand on our own two feet.

i'm gonna talk about blacks because obviously i think i have a better grasp of that community.


as oppressive as the white community may be at times, i've never found it to be near as oppressive to me as the black community. that's were i think the root of the problem is in the first place. i can't count the number of times in high school i was ridiculed by other black kids for participating in class, doing my homework, reading books, or taking upper level courses like physics and calculus. when you work hard and strive to be educated in the black community, many times you don't get praised for it, you get put down and told to stop acting white. this isn't just me, it's happened to a lot of people i know. i think there's a big problem when the message you're getting from your community is that you need to act more dumb than you really are to be accepted. i think that goes back to what nate was saying about curing a symptom and not the disease.

i don't think it's the white people who are saying we aren't good enough. i think it's the minority leaders who defend affirmative action and tell us we need it.

my family is plenty well off and i'm a smart enough guy. i don't need affirmative action to get into school or get a job. i'm in a better position for those things than the majority of white people i know. also, i want my achievements to be 100% my achievements. i don't want it to be 75% my achievement and 25% the preferential treatment that i got because i happen to be black.

i think affirmative action is condescending and pretty insulting to everyone's hard work.

although i disagree with it in regards to race, i'm still somewhat torn when it comes to gender. i think that's a bigger and sort of different problem. i'm pretty sure i have a better chance at getting hired at a lot of places than a woman of any race.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE(Steven @ Feb 4 2008, 06:03 PM) *
your sig is ginormous

Which one do you think I should keep? I will alternate between weeks with the sigs.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE(brooklyneast05 @ Feb 4 2008, 06:03 PM) *
as oppressive as the white community may be at times, i've never found it to be near as oppressive to me as the black community. that's were i think the root of the problem is in the first place. i can't count the number of times in high school i was ridiculed by other black kids for participating in class, doing my homework, reading books, or taking upper level courses like physics and calculus. when you work hard and strive to be educated in the black community, many times you don't get praised for it, you get put down and told to stop acting white. this isn't just me, it's happened to a lot of people i know. i think there's a big problem when the message you're getting from your community is that you need to act more dumb than you really are to be accepted. i think that goes back to what nate was saying about curing a symptom and not the disease.

i don't think it's the white people who are saying we aren't good enough. i think it's the minority leaders who defend affirmative action and tell us we need it.

my family is plenty well off and i'm a smart enough guy. i don't need affirmative action to get into school or get a job. i'm in a better position for those things than the majority of white people i know. also, i want my achievements to be 100% my achievements. i don't want it to be 75% my achievement and 25% the preferential treatment that i got because i happen to be black.

i think affirmative action is condescending and pretty insulting to everyone's hard work.

Another post that I can agree with. I don't want people to think that oh I am going to use affirmative action to my advantage to get the career I want, because that is totally untrue. Unfortunately in the line of work that I am pursuing, they force affirmative action on you whether you are qualified or not. I do think that it makes other blacks look bad, when you see some black people busting their ass to get to where they are, and others who just lay back and can get the same benefits.

I too am that person who is constantly told to stop acting white and to stop trying to be an overachiever, but I can't help it. Since I was young, my family instilled values in me that I carry with me to this day. My mom could have always moved out of our old neighborhood into something nicer, but she wanted me to see that I needed to do more than just my best to get out of where I was at. The experience showed me that I cannot settle for just average or expect a handout like most people do, but that I must work hard to get what I want, and even then it is still not enough.

Most people feel as though blacks take advantage of this system the same way they take advantage of the welfare system, but I for one am against those who want to abuse it all together. If people can't put in the hard work and dedication that it takes to be successful, then they shouldn't be given the same opportunities as those who do.

Being black in this world is hard enough, but being a black man to me is the toughest job that anybody can have. I am proud that I don't fall into the cliche that is associated with most black men. If somebody calls me an oreo or an uncle tom, it definitely doesn't bother me, because I know that I am doing my best to make sure that I don't fall into what society wants me to be.

Black leaders in today's society don't have the same message as Dr. King or Malcolm X did. It seems like all they want in today's world, is for blacks to get over easy, and even when they do, and they are ridiculed, these same leaders are the ones crying foul or racism and what not. The level of hypocrisy in the black community is at an all time high, but trust when I say, there are definitely some blacks who strive to knock down the stereotypes and be something in this world.
 
*Steven*
post Feb 4 2008, 08:15 PM
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Walls of text = hard to read. Not to bash or anything, just paragraphs make it much easier.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 4 2008, 08:39 PM
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Fixed it just for you Steve.
 
*Steven*
post Feb 5 2008, 10:21 PM
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Affirmative action leads to reverse discrimination = the majority being discriminated against. Where's the win in that?
 
fameONE
post Feb 5 2008, 10:27 PM
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I've been fortunate because I've never had to deal with this problem, but that doesn't mean I don't know about it. Still, I'm reading this thread and I cringe, coming to grips with how foul the social atmosphere of America is right now, and even more so when I consider how much things have improved.
 
DoubleJ
post Feb 5 2008, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE(Steven @ Feb 5 2008, 10:21 PM) *
Affirmative action leads to reverse discrimination = the majority being discriminated against. Where's the win in that?

That is a good question. I mean, I am only speaking in my case ya know. I can put it to you in these terms where it applies to me.

100 firefighters get accepted for probie school for the Jersey City Fire Dept. Out of those 100, I believe that 30 - 40 percent have to be minorities. Do all of those minorities necessarily have the same qualifications as their white counterparts? No, but it is the only way that minorities have a fair chance with the unfair hiring practices of civil service companies. I mean like I said before, I definitely think that the system has it's flaws, but in some cases, it is used in the right way.
 

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