The "problem of evil" is an argument against the existence of an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God. Basically, this proposes that an omnipotent and omni-benevolent God and evil existing in our world contradict and that because there is clearly evil in the world, God cannot exist.

The logical problem of evil argument, I personally think, does the best job of making what the problem of evil is proposing clear.


On the flip side, one of the most popular defenses is proposed by Augustine of Hippo, a Christian, which basically goes that evil is only the complete deprivation of good.

I personally think that argument is relatively weak, so I'll also throw in the free will argument (which basically states that God gave us free will as to not have us as "mindless robots") just to have the topic start out somewhat neutral.
Discuss.

Yep. Reincarnation in the Bible has been (and kind of still is being) discussed in the Transmigration thread. Jake said something along the lines of what you just said back there.

Yeah, that's what I believe also. I mean it's not just those particular verses either, there are other verses in the Bible that may sound like one thing but mean another. You just got to know how to interpret it right. Sometimes, it really helps going to church though cause someone who's been studying it for 40 something years can explain the verse to you more thoroughly.

i remember this from my philosophy class last year haha. i have to dig upp the notebook and read through the notes again and might leave a comment or two. i think i was pretty into this topic, dont remember much though =(

Yeah, the bible is a pretty incredible book. It's like a spider web. Everything is linked in some way.

Anyone else have anything to say for or against the problem of evil? Rebuttals to given answers? Questions?

As for you guys who follow the Bible, I suppose your only conflict with my answer is the bit on reincarnation.

Yes, for the most part... My only problem is that I think you're taking the whole reincarnation thing out of context if your trying to link reincarnation to the Bible. If not... I don't know...

Yes, the only conflict is reincarnation so far. But I am not going to judge you for that, that's not my place, I just don't believe in it and it's not in the Bible.

My only thing with reincarnation is...how can we understand it? I mean, I hear a lot of stories where people claim to be reborn people from another life, but, it's always when they are in their middle years or later.

I don't agree that evil is suffering. So, I guess we agree. I don't know.

I feel that suffering is a good thing sometimes. Some people abuse it and get pleasure out of it....TRILBY!

Do you get what I'm saying about reincarnation? Its holds up as much as people claiming to have seen an alien. I don't know. I guess it's just a faith thing.

But it was an interesting topic to read about.

I'm really not taking much of an effort in linking reincarnation to the Bible at all.

Well, if you guys want to focus on reincarnation for now, let's take it to the Transmigration topic.

Right. We should just stick to the topic. Evil. That is the topic right? haha.

Well, evil is real. We might not be able to touch it or see it directly because it is a product of our minds.

Evil is just the lack of presence of goodness. I feel that people are born evil. I mean, since the Bible is loosely tied into this discussion, it says that we are born into sin, so therefore sin is evil. We are evil.

How are you tying this into the Bible? I mean, you said that it contradicts God because He is perfect. I remember you saying that. IT would be contradictory for God to create evil. Or something along those lines.

So, comment, please.

Oh right, while I was introducing the problem of evil. Obviously I'm not for the problem of evil, but arguments state that an omni-benevolent God and "evil" cannot coexist.

While analyzing the problem of evil, you have to define evil, omni-benevolence, omnipotence, and God.

I guess this would tie to the Bible because the Christian God is defined as, basically, perfect.

First of all, God never created Evil, your right he is perfect. The Devil/Lucifer created Evil. He was a beautiful angel from Heaven who betrayed and went against God, tried to throw him off his own throne and was thrown out of Heaven. God gave us free will and Lucifer chose not to follow God, he hated him, he wanted his power..that's where the Evil in the world comes from, the Devil created it.

Yes, true most Evil you can't see but A LOT you can. Evil can be seen. Such as witnessing someone kill a child (your seeing evil happening) or maybe someone committing suicide due to depression (again your seeing evil again).

God created all things. God created the devil. God created free will, and for free will to exist, evil must also exist. God can do anything...

You aren't seeing evil. You're seeing sin. Sin is an action tainted by evil. Those people are sinning because they are evil. Everyone is sinning. Even you.

Exactly.

Everything originates from God.

I know everyone sins, yes even me...

And yes God did create the Devil but he didn't create evil..people make their own choices hence free will like you said.

No, your seeing sin and evil because sin is what evil is called. Anything that is evil is devil-related therefore sinful.

You have to understand that evil is merely ignorance (the absence of infinite love/wisdom/understanding/knowledge). God created people who don't have any of those things...

well... I'm finished with my reply:

Alright, this may be difficult to wrap your mind around.

Here's how I see it. First of all, you have to understand the concept of Love. Love is making the best choice, and the only way you can make the best choice in every situation every single time is if you have "infinite wisdom". Pure Love requires the best choices and is something that only God can do because He is the only Being ever to be able to make the best decision in every situation every single time.

The best decision is the perfect decision. Perfection is relative, and cannot be defined. The only Being who knows true perfection is God Himself, and the only reason He knows true perfection is because He is infinitely wise. You cannot make the "best" choices if the worst choices do not exist, and the only different between the perfect choice (if you know what it is) and the alternative is the worst choice. Meaning, any other alternative is just as bad as the worst choice if the best known alternative is purposely avoided even though it is the known best choice because the worst choice is also relative. The Greek philosopher Plato argued, "evil is merely ignorance." I agree, any decision aside from the best decision is a decision tainted by evil (A.K.A: "the ignorance of the best decision".)

Rick Bobby - Talladega Knights: "If you're not first, you're last."

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

For God to have the ability to love, He has to have the ability to do all things or in other words make all choices (including sin). Without the ability to sin He wouldn't need infinite wisdom, because without evil, imperfections wouldn't exist. The perfect choice wouldn't need infinite wisdom. If evil didn't exist then perfect choices would simply happen. It's not that God cannot sin, He just chooses not to and never will.

Interesting Observation: If you believe in God then, if God didn't have the ability to do something then it would not exist because he has the ability to accomplish all things (including contradictions).

When God placed the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" into the word He gave us the ability to love. When He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, He gave them the ability to make a choice. He gave them the ability to choose Love by obeying him (the best choice) or choose evil by taking the fruit of the tree (the alternative).

Eve chose to take the fruit out because she was selfish.

"When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6)

Often times, people tend to think that the tree had magical properties that unlocked "wisdom". I personally don't think so. Before Adam and Eve had even seen the tree, Lucifer had already fallen from heaven. Beings were already making evil choices. The tree was more of a lesson than a magic turning point in humanity.

I don't think that the tree gave them wisdom. Wisdom already existed. The tree taught them that they had the ability to make choices. It taught them to use applied knowledge to the decisions they make in their lives. The tree was a tool that indirectly gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of wisdom existing.

Giving us the ability to Love without infinite wisdom makes us imperfect or evil by nature. Because we don't have infinite wisdom, we learn from our surroundings. We learn to make decisions based upon the effect they will have on our lives. We make decisions based upon opportunity costs. To many, "perfect" decisions would effect our lives in the most positive way possible. In reality, perfect decisions effect eternity in the best way possible. The best decisions end up being self-less because we don't know all things. Perhaps this is why:

"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends" - John 15.13

This is not to say that laying down ones life for one's friend is a perfect decision, but that it is the greatest love humans are capable of showing due to the fact that we do not know all things. God is the only one who can truly love, for He is Love. We can only do our best.

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." - John 4:8

I wouldn't say no one has any of those things, I think a lot of people have love and wisdom, maybe not knowledge of all things but knowledge in a lot of things. Your right God is love. God created people who would have some knowledge, some wisdom and definitly love but it depends on how we use it or if we choose to use it. EVERYONE and is capable of loving if they choose to.

Love is not just making the best choice but a feeling towards something or someone. But it also is more than a feeling, it's kinda hard to explain, I know what love is don't get me wrong but to me love is unexplainable.

True, God is the only one that can make the best/perfect choice everytime, because he IS perfect but that doesn't mean that we as humans don't make the best choices. I think a lot of times we do make the wrong choices but in alot of cases we do tend to make the right onces.

True, anything that is evil and your making your choice in that is obviously not the best choice in God's eyes, I do agree with that

Yes, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, were human, we make mistakes and we do have that free will, so we choose our own fate, whether it to be with God or against God. But without the Devil, Evil wouldn't exist in the world because he created the Evil, he's the one that causes the Evil in this world and he will do anything to steer you away from God. It's hard to explain what I mean but like I said yes God created all but one thing he did not create was sin/evil, the Devil which was made by God went against God and sinned, he created that Evil and now that Evil exists today. If God is loving, why would he create bad? That just makes no sense.

Yes, he did place both trees but he also told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they didn't die but they did sin in god's eyes because they went against him. God did place both trees as I said which gave us free will but he didn't create evil itself.

I agree the tree was a lesson and to see what path they'd take. Evil was going on in the world because the Devil. He was steering people away from God and causing them to do Evil things, his works. When you go to Heaven you will NOT see Evil because God didn't create it and he wants only love and happiness in his holy place, which is Heaven.

Yes, we are born sinners and evil by nature but God didn't create that, it happend because we started to follow the Devil which caused us to be evil so still the Devil did create evil. We are born sinners because we are not perfect, only God is, he didn't make us that way, he made us in his image, it's just that we chose to follow Evil that the Devil created.

You had some very good points but your not really explaining to me why you think God created Evil. All the stuff you just posted, I already knew.

"Evil" by human perspective = Suffering =/= Real evil
Evil (and hell) by more accurate terms = Dim consciousness of God
In addition: "Evil" is not contingent on a/the "Devil." "Evil" is, however contingent with Freewill.

Come on guys, I thought we already went over this.

God can't do everything. He might be all powerful, but if He were to sin, sin wouldn't be evil, because God is perfect.

Well, if God can't do everything, wouldn't that make him... imperfect?

oops...

God, can sin but he chooses not to.



Perfection is relative, no-one knows what perfect is. Only God knows.. all we know is that GOD CREATED ALL THINGS... >.<



Not all people have love and wisdom. The have the capability of showing love or wisdom, but not everyone chooses to be loving or wise. You must make the choice to do both.

Think of this... Knowledge is the beginning of Understanding is the beginning of Wisdom is the beginning of Love. Knowledge is Facts, Understanding is the interpretation of those facts, Wisdom is application of interpreted facts, and Love is supposed to be the outcome. On the other hand, you could receive false knowledge, have a skewed understanding, end up with false wisdom, an d end up really hurting someone even if you're trying to help them.

To have PURE love you must have a infinite wisdom from infinite understanding of infinte knowledge. Love is a decision. It's a conscious decision to make the best decsion. Like you said, "EVERYONE and is capable of loving if they choose to."



There are plenty of times when people "feel" like they love someone, but really aren't. How about when a parent spoils their child with toys, or when a boyfriend/girlfriend becomes too possessive, in both of these examples the individual feels love but isn't really loving. Love is not unexplainable. Simply put, pure love is making the best choices for eternity and love is making the best choices that we know of. Only one person can do that. This is why God is Infinite Love - Infinite Love requires Infinite Wisdom requires Infinite Understanding requires Infinite Knowledge. Only God has all four.



How do you know that you are making the best choice when you don't know every possibly and every outcome of every possibility. In every decision, you are probably making the best decision you know how to make. It's not the same thing. The best choice does not equal the best choice you know of. The truth is, you probably have no idea what the best choice is. This is exactly why you can never have pure love. The only thing you can do is try your best, and that's exactly what God asks of us.



It does make sense. Without evil, love wouldn't exist.



both trees?



Evil is nothing but ignorance. You have to understand that. Evil is not having Infinite Love which requires Infinite Wisdom... so etc. You will not see evil in Heaven because God will reveal to us "all things".



Ugh... you don't get it... GOD CREATED EVIL SO WE COULD LOVE. WITHOUT EVIL LOVE COULDN'T EXIST. >.>