I'd like to see this question answered, because if you'd ask me, I'd say Christianity gets many followers out of fear.

^ Yes, It does. I know whenever I've gone to church, pastors tend to preach alot about how those who dont accept Jesus are going to Hell. Heck, the pastor who preaches at my school for our weekly "chapel" preaches about being saved every single time. And every time at the end, he finishes with prayer. Not just a normal prayer, but to get people to be saved and raise their hand, so he can pray for them.

Its sad to see so many people "raise their hand" out of fear.

Well, I haven't heard anything about them finding Jesus' body at all, the tomb yes but not in fact his body. Don't believe everything you hear. Actually, look online for that and give me the link as your proof.

No, the Bible has never been proven wrong, if that was so there would be stuff on the news about it being wrong. As for them copying things in the Bible, most of the stuff that has happend in the Bible I am sure was not copied from somewhere but that people copies stuff out of the Bible after it had been created.

I did answer your Question and I said that I do not have my Faith out of fear. A lot of people yes do go into the religion out of fear, the first time I submitted my life to Christ, I did because someone made me fear Hell and want to be a Christian but when I re-submitted my life it wasn't out of fear. But out of love.

Ps: You don't have to point out every gramatical error I make, this is not grammar school and I know that I have worded things wrong but I could also say the same for you if I wanted to but I'm not because this isn't about english or grammer.






When a pastor preaches about a non-believer going to Hell, he is only preaching the truth from the Word of God so I don't really see how that is a bad thing unless your against Christianity then that's understandable because you don't believe things and understand them the way Christians understand them.

True, a lot of Christians do become Christians out of fear, a select few...but that doesn't imply EVERY Christian, that is close minded and judgemental right there.

I think people should be warned about there salvation and how to get to Heaven. The pastor obviously cared about the people that were unsaved and that's why he wanted to pray for them. He is only speaking the word of God and doing what God wants.

No whats sad is all the unsaved people out there that don't trust the Bible and choose not to follow God who will in the end make it to Hell.

Not really, no. Why the hell would you see such a thing being publicized when so many people don't want you to know about it? The world is DOMINATED by Christians, so do you honestly expect them to advertize it? No. The book I told you about (the Pagan Christ) was written by a Canadian author and our prof gave it to us to read and write a response, after which people's PARENTS came, outraged that somebody was giving their kids such information. Little did they know about my prof =) So don't expect it to be served on a silver platter. You have to dig it up. Look up Finkelstein's achievements - he has a lot, which would probably amaze you.

I don't know how many times you're gonna make me repeat myself, the stories from the bible have been written AFTER the stories from Mesopotamia. You should learn about it.

That being said, I'm done with this debate because you ignore particular points I made, which is just a waste of time on my part. I can't stoop down to that level, because you just aren't very good at debating =\ sorry. But that's what I think. You don't present any proof to back up your opinion, except for the bible, which isn't even recognized by scholars as a fact (another remark you ignored).

Take some courses on ancient history. It will provide you with lots of info, from which you can draw your own conclusions.

And by the way, you said before that you'd rather be safe and believe in god than be sorry and find out you were wrong. Which logically makes it seem that you believe out of fear =)

Adios.

I have given proof other then the Bible you just didn't read my response. I also brought up the shroud that was found along with other stuff as my proof and you still denied it. So, why should I take yours into consideration? That's absurd.

Do you know for a fact that those stories were 100% written before Jesus' time or is that just word of mouth? Just because your Professor teaches something doesn't make it facts or truth.

As I have said 10 million times, the Bible has never been proven wrong therefore, I can use that has evidence because of that.

Actually, I am very good at debating (at least that's what I'm told by others), you just think I'm bad at it cause you don't believe what I believe. It's sad really.

No thanks...not interested in studying history, actually I'm more concerned on finding a good job and I think I'd rather go with the Bible, GODS WORD rather then some made up history crap.

Yes, I realize I said that but that doesn't imply that I, myself are going to God out of fear. Yes, I do want to go to Heaven and I do know if I am not saved I'll see Hell but I came to God out of love, how he treated us and the fact I do want to see him in Heaven..that is my reason. If you want to believe it's out of fear, then okay but that's not my reason.

Ps: Adios to you too! And just so you know you really aren't good at debating either since you pointed out books written by people as your proof, that's not proof..it's not hard facts..ect...but thanks for the debate, it was a good laugh.

The whole essence of Christianity has been significantly watered down. And that includes pastors and teachers. Not all pastors or teachers of Christianity are actually bona fide or legible to be teaching others about Christianity. And when there's a faulty teacher, the students won't be much better.

Oh, trust me, I'm quite sure more have converted to Christianity out of fear than "a select few." The fear of Hell, the fear of being wrong, or different (peer pressure), the fear of not being saved. Christianity's followers have been less about quality and more about quantity. I don't even have any polls behind this, but it's as good as inevitable. Christianity has become a commercialized religion.

A more bona fide teacher of God's word would be telling followers to surrender to God to unconditionally love God out of their own free will; because they love God so much - not because they'll go to Hell if they don't follow or for their salvation. (Because if you think about it, if you go primarily for your own salvation, it's quite selfish; it's the salvation you desire, not the actual loving of God.)

Now, I hope you don't start getting the impression that I'm against Christianity, I meant no offense or rudeness to God, Jesus, and God's teachings (because they are quite correct). I'm actually quite alright with it; it's better than nothing. And please keep in mind that I wasn't talking about all of the Christian faith. I was only talking generally.

Oh that's okay. I am not offended in any way shape or form and I do understand you and agree on a lot of points. I do believe A LOT of Christians are Christians out of fear, believe me, I used to be one of those people until I re-submitted my life to Christ and now my reasoning is different because when I re-submitted I did it out of free will not someone pressuring me like I had the first time. In fact, religion actually ruined one of my very close relationships but of course I don't blame God for that, just religion in general.

As for pastors preaching about our salvation, I think that's important because there are so many unsaved individuals in our world that will not see Heaven by the Bibles terms which is why it's important to not only preach the word of God by telling them of Hell but also telling them of God's love which I have to admit a lot of churches don't do which is one of the reasons why I'll be attending my friend Jessica's church because they don't leave anything out of the Bible, they preach the truth.

But I don't believe they should leave out Hell because I feel that is very important, Heck I don't want to see anyone go there at all but everyone is given free will but like I said it should be taught but his love should be taught also. It's not all about salvation but salvation is very critical.

Well, telling them to love God out of there own free will would be against Christianity because well were trying to get the unsaved saved so we can see them in Heaven but your right they should go about it in a different way which is why I don't really believe in Evangelising...like a lot of Christians do. I believe you should preach the word of God as a Christian and if someone is "touched" by your words then great and if not, then God will deal with it but I don't believe in forcing religion on people.

Ps: My boyfriend is non-religious and believes that God is a possiblity but is more into seeing and believing rather then believing and then seeing and I never even tried converting him, the relationship is good, I respect his beliefs and he respects mine.

Understood, understood. However, I shall emphasize that the pastors and teachers simply cannot be just any other person; they should be people that truly understand God's teachings. A deficient teacher will only have deficient teachings, thus watering down God's word, and well, it just goes downhill from there.

Yeah, I know what you mean a lot of churches do water down the Bible and that's not good at all. Yeah my old preacher had studied the Bible for 45 years..he's pretty good with it...if you have a problem or Question about something in the Bible he can pick up the verse at the top of his head without even looking..he's pretty darn good and I think if someone is going to preach the word of God they should be able to do that.

Some last points which I felt compelled to make.

1. Me putting books as proof is wrong? HAHAHAH what the hell are YOU doing? The same thing, man. The Bible is a book. What else do you expect for proof, honestly? Ahahhahhahhahahahahah. One last time - THE BIBLE IS NOT RECOGNIZED BY SCHOLARS AS FACT. Just so you know. ;)

2. I believe I can trust my professor, since he has two Ph.D's in theology, two masters degrees and a few (I lost count) bachelors. He teaches at the university of Toronto, and he's not kidding around =) Oh yeah, and he used to be a minister. Ahahahaa.

3. Believe what you want, the bible is not a reliable source nor is it a fact, because unless you're completely idiotic, you would realize that some of the stories there are found in texts from ANCIENT MESOPOTAMIA (which was the first civilization, by the way.. since you obviously have no clue).

4. What other proof have you given me other than the bible and that other book you were reading? Merely your opinion, which doesn't serve as fact.

5. You don't know for sure that the bible was "god's word", right? Right. So how can you possibly say that what I've mentioned to you as back up is "made-up"? These authors are well-known historians and scholars, and trust me, I'd rather believe that than a plagiarized book. Which was written by PEOPLE too.

6. How stupid can I be to debate with you when you don't even know what Old Babylon is? Stoopid me. Tsk tsk. See ya.

P.S. It's just hard for me to resist not replying when somebody's convicting me of such nonsense. =) No hard feelings. I'm sure you're a very cool person IRL. I just get crazy like that when it comes to debates. My boyfriend is religious, by the way, and we have no problem with this either =)

This is for your first point. EXACTLY MY POINT. How can you not believe in a book I know of as to be my proof yet expect me to read one of your books as proof. Both were written by people.

Your second point. Just because he has a lisence to do something doesn't mean he knows everything. I went all the way through school being taught that evolution is "fact" which is lies because it is a theory not a fact. Heres something for you - "Since a driver has there lisence does that mean they follow the rules of the road and are good drivers?".

Third point. You say the Bible isn't fact? How do you know that for sure? You don't. As I have said many times it has not been proven wrong.

Fourth point. Everything around you. Heres an article on it: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html this is consider fact because it's all around us...you just have to think "did god make this up" or "did something else make this up".

Fifth point. It was written by people who saw Jesus and his works not by people who deny God and choose to believe he doesn't exist. It is God's word because God's people wrote of him.

Your sixth point. *lol* Why do I even choose to debate with someone who thinks they know everything and know for a fact that the bible is "false"...

Ps: Yeah I'm religious and my boyfriends like you, non-Religious, we have arguments about it sometimes but not really, we pretty much respect eachothers beliefs. While I wish he was saved and a Christian so he could participate with me at church and understand where I'm coming from, I don't try to convert because I don't believe in it, I believe people need to come to God on there own not upon force. If you ever want to talk minus "religion"...feel free to add me on myspace, heres the link: http://www.myspace.com/sweetangel2128

Let me clarify something for you - I think there might be some kind of higher power, but I refuse to believe in any type of organized religion, because I think that's where disaster lies. This article you pointed to me (I read it, by the way), it mainly talks about the way our world is perfect and there is simply no way this could be by chance. Maybe that's true. Maybe not. I just choose not to believe in any of the religions, because they seem insipid to me, as well as illogical most times.

Oh yeah, and at least I've read your book which you claim as fact. You don't really put an effort on what I've provided you with. I educate myself on such issues and then make up my mind. You should too. Oh, and by the way the authors of those books aren't atheists, most of them anyway. Tom Harpur, the writer of "The Pagan Christ", for instance, does believe in a god. So they're not books "made up" by "people who deny god." =)

I know the bible isn't a fact because I've done research and read a heck a lot of stuff on it =) I've already given you my reasons. You can ignore them if you want - I don't blame you, since you're religious.

By the way, I've heard religious people believe that the world is really no more than 2,000 years old. Those are people who take the bible literally (which is my only problem with those people).

You don't know that these people really knew Jesus. These stories were written a while after Jesus' death - and people at that time didn't really live until they were 90 =)

You have a problem with trusting well-known scholars who are at the top of their career. Your loss =)

P.S. I should really quit this debate. You and I can just agree to disagree, no? Because this isn't going anywhere. And it's getting quite pathetic.

Cosign, emphasis.

Organized religions really are a drab. It's like you have to be on a team or something. Goes down hill from there.

Yes. The shit the church has done from the 1st century to the 4th is remarkable. So much fraud and cover-ups, that I've been amazed. I wish I could recall it all, but I should read the book again. It's been a while.

Thats one of the main reasons I refuse to believe in the validity of Christianity. And they've done plenty of things past the 4th century, as well.

I don't mean this in a rude way so don't take it that way but I was amazed you said you believe in a higher power because your profile is down as an Atheist...Atheists don't believe in God or any higher power at all. Your kind of like my mom, she believes in God but doesn't believe you need to do certain things to be accepted and doesn't believe in religion. I, myself don't really see myself as being religious and I don't neccesarily follow Religion anytime someone says that I say "No, I follow Jesus" and that is true, I am not perfect and I try not to be this uptight Christian, I love Jesus and I do read God's word all the time, well maybe not 24/7 but I do read it quite often, I try to follow what the Bible says, at this present time I don't attend church and I try not to act like a robot like a lot of Christians do, I don't depend upon God for every little thing in my life and I don't believe that when something goes wrong that it's always a trial from God or the Devil causing it. But I do believe what I believe and I stand up for myself & my beliefs.

Basically, this is what I believe, I believe that it is fact but I am also open-minded to where I think there is a possiblity that your right and it could not be fact, I believe Evolution "could of" happend but I am more apt to believe more in God than anything else because of certain things happening. Such as me praying, a day before I got called in for an interview I had prayed and prayed for God to hear my prayer that this job would call me, the very next day they did...why is that strange? Because I've applied at this place 5 different times since I've lived here which is about year and not once have they called me in the past plus no job has ever called me for an interview since my last job shut down so since I did pray and appreciate God, I do believe he blessed me with them giving me a chance. I would more than love to read your findings, but I do not work right now and have no money to go out and get those books which is why I asked for an online reference because it's free and available to me.

As for the authors of the books, believing in a higher power and actually being a Christian are totally different things. If they are writing something against his existance, they are denying him. And I've noticed a lot of books that were written in terms of Jesus's existance were written by agnostics or atheists.

Well, if those religious people think the world is only 2,000 years old they obviously don't pay attention to the Bible very much, it says that Christ's first coming was 2,000 years ago, as for the creation of everything, the world would have to be much older then that if you think about it..I am sure it was a long time before even his first coming happend..so I am sure the world was much older then 2,000 years.

You obviously don't know too much about the Bible all the stories in the Bible were not written after his death, some were yes, but a lot were written around the time of his first coming. Scrolls were found on this and they dated how old they were which shows you that these were written before and after his death.

I could say the same for you, you have a problem trusting God who created everything and if he didn't you wouldnt exist, your loss. I just choose to believe in my father in Heaven rather then some guy that might not even know the facts.

Ps: Yeah, I'll agree to disagree. It truly doesn't matter to me and doesn't bother me




Yeah, true a lot of people within the church have done some bad things but those people were not living the word of God and doing what God truly wanted. But just because one person or a few people do something like that doesn't mean the whole religion is to blame..it's the people within the religion and even then not every person who is Christianity is like that or to blame.

The teachings of the Supreme Being (God, Allah, Krishna; whatever you want to call him) should indeed be taught. But this doesn't have to be done via an organized religion. In fact, it shouldn't be done in an organized religion. The essential teachings of the Supreme Godhead are consistent, there's no need for this organized religion.

It is when people become fanatic about very insignificant differences that are over details such as events, text, people, etcetera, when what really matters is that the lessons behind such events or scriptures, that separate religions are born.

I'm glad you have some spiritual religion that you commit to, because that's not really a bad thing. For me, I don't need that. I like to say that music is my religion =) Because there is a certain spiritual side of it, which is especially apparent when you perform. Hence why I love it so much.

I don't really believe there is a higher power; I think there might be a possibility of one being, but my logic forces me to lean more on the other side. That's why I put atheist. I would've put agnostic, but I'm leaning more toward the not-existing part.

I never said these stories were all written after Jesus' death in the bible, but the gospels are =) Aren't they?

These authors aren't writing about denying god's existance; they mainly focus on organized religion and what the church has twisted around. I don't think even one of them actually denies the existance of a possible god.

That's all.

Oh yeah, when I found out my uncle had cancer, I prayed too - I prayed so much that I actually expected something to happen. As did my mom. And my entire family. And pretty much everybody that knew my family - which is a LOT of people. He had a brain surgery that year. Unsuccessful. Then he died the next year, after which my grandfather died of an unexpected heartattack, just 7 days later.

However, I can't use that to disprove the existance of god, can I, therefore you can't use your job interview example to prove his existance. I hope you understand my point.

Well, Agnostics dont really believe in a higher power there more along the lines of not passing up the possiblity. They believe it is possible that there is. Atheists, don't believe in God period or even a higher power, they believe there is no possiblity whatsoever.

I am not totally sure on the gospels I'd have to research it.

I am sorry to hear about your uncle, truly I am. My step-dad died last February 14th from several reasons. It began with a stroke but he was treated badly at a hospital and another place which caused him to get a bad infection in his body which he couldn't fight off. I prayed and so did my mother along with everyone else, at first it did work cause he was getting better, but the night before he died, I had a bad feeling and felt God telling me he was going to pass away. It happend the following morning around 9am. But I know that God doesn't always answer our prayers, sometimes it's time for that person to go and sometimets our prayers are answered just not in the way we want them to be answered.

I see what your saying though.




I agree. Afterall, Jesus didn't create Religion. He created Christianity but not in the sense for everyone to have there own little "teams". To me Christianity stands for "with christ" or "like christ". He didn't want us to be seperate from eachother but to believe in 1 thing, his Bible (his word and in him) but to also love him.

Probably the reason why I call myself an atheist is because based on the knowledge I have, I can conclude that there isn't a god. Agnostics believe that there may or may not be a god - that there isn't a way to know for sure. I lean more toward the atheist position. That's why =)

And I really don't understand it when people say that god doesn't always answer our prayers, that it's the people's times to go, etc. Why does he let children die, then? And millions of innocent people? If there is a god, he cannot be very loving, can he, considering what's going on in the world right now. (and not just right now) That's my logic anyway.

Actually, I think either the Bible or most Christian scientists believe the earth is between 4,000 - 6,000 years old. If it was only 2,000, and jesus was born around 0 AD, then how would've the Roman Empire been there? And the Old Testament already written? Just a thought.

I believe the earth is millions of years old... mostly because that's what a large majoirty of scientists believe.

Thats true. If he does answer our prayers, then he's picking and choosing between which ones he wants to do something about and which ones he doesnt. Shouldnt God already know whats on our hearts, and what we need help with? I dont think "telling God" what we need is going to get us anywhere. Why does God let little kids dying of CANCER die? And what if they're "not saved"? He obviously doesnt answer everyones prayers, no matter how important they are.

I believe in God, or a higher power at least, but I dont think he/she/it controls us like puppets, or has direct control. I dont think he sits back and watches either, or is non existant. Actually, why would the little things we worry about even matter to God?

Angelina - is the book that you're reffering to worth going out and buying?

Yeahhh, I meant something along the lines of 2,000-4,000. My mistake. But they definitely don't think the earth is millions of years old.

Yes, "The Pagan Christ" is an eye-opener. "The End of Faith" isn't bad either, but the guy focuses on islam more than anything (hence he wrote "A letter to a Christian nation" to balance it out).

^ Do you know who wrote them? Thanks. :)

Understood. However, the Bible isn't the only way to learn God's teachings, nor is it necessarily the best way (since we're not sure about Biblical inerrancy). Anyway, other scriptures (Bhagavad Gita, Qur'ran, etc.) also communicate the teachings of the Supreme Being (assuming that they haven't been corrupted).
Thing is, people asking materialistic things from a God or Supreme Being, they're asking for all the wrong things. I mean, at that point, it's almost as if God is your servant. Really, one should be asking for the love of God and vice versa and such.

And the children dying and such? Well, there's logic in it if you follow karma and reincarnation.

I don't believe in karma or reincarnation. Oh yeah, and I don't think I said anything about asking materialistic things from god. All I wanted was for my uncle to live one more year. That's not materialistic.

The author of the Pagan Christ is Tom Harpur, and The End of Faith (and a letter to a christian nation) is by Sam Harris.