First of all, I do not see myself as being a religious person I just have my beliefs and that is what I believe. I never said that another person had to die in order for us to be saved I said God sent himself in human form down to earth as JESUS to shed his own blood to save us of our sins..why? Because God wasn't going to let that happen, he was not going to allow us into Heaven because of sin..it says in the Bible that no sin can enter Heaven..well him coming down in human form and dying on the cross made it possible for us to be forgiven so we can see Heaven. I am thinking logical and my beliefs don't change, I believe that but I am also an open-minded person to where I also believe evolution could of happend and other things.




Exactly, that's why I posted that analogy of why God didn't just come down as well "God" because it explains that term a little bit better and is easier to understand.



Yes, Jesus did die to save his people. Believe what you want, but that was the whole purpose. He was sent from Heaven to die on the cross so that we could be forgiven so that we could see Heaven if he wouldn't of died on that cross, sin wouldn't allowed to enter Heaven at all and we wouldn't have a second chance.

If I take it literally, I have shit for brains? Ummm okay...so someone that doesn't believe in what you believe in must automatically be retarded or something? Funny!



Yes, 2 other men did die on the cross...one was sinful and forgave Jesus and believed with all his heart he was the messiah while the other one continued in sin and hated Jesus.

And yes he wasn't killed for religious crimes. He was killed because he had followers, everyone believed he was the messiah and they thought that Jesus was a liar that is why he died...stoning would be painful but he died on the cross for our sins, that was planned long ago and was meant to happen plus I think dying on a cross the way he died and how they tortured him before the cross was worse punishment then being stoned. They made him suffer.

I also believe Christianity is original...I mean come on...they found scrolls for evidence written in hebrew and greek and several different people wrote those different scrolls from LONG ago.

I really don't understand how that one person is saying Christianity is contradicting...in what way is it contradicting?

Note: Jesus didn't die because he wanted to save someone. You keep saying he died on the cross for our sins and how he shed his own blood for our sins and I think its bullshit.

WTF. If we sinned, then we repent. That's how it works. If his people sinned, they did not deserve to see heaven. That's the entire idea of it. That's already one contradiction. If sins are given to the people who did wrong in the eyes of God, why would God remove the sins he noticed? Why does Jesus dying remove our sins? While all religions say to repent if you did something wrong, Christians say its okay because Jesus died for our sins, so they don't have to do anything. You can't have someone else cleanse sins for you. Its the entire basis of society. That's why people go to jail. You can't say, "Yeah, I killed them, but this guy over here's going to go to jail for me. I'm just going to leave now."

I think its rather cowardly. Instead of attempting to repenting for your own sins yourselves, you 'pass them down' to Jesus, who'll do it for you. I think some guy didn't feel like repenting for something one day and rewrote it all. It seems too convenient to be true. As a Jew, I noticed that Christians seem to have no sad holidays. We have Yom Kippur, where we focus our repents. Everything I see in churches has music and laughing and parties. Religion should not be about the church choir or the church band or church activities or basketball leagues. It should be about religion, and your connection to it. You should go to pray, and only for that. I hardly believe any of you are truly religious or believe the nonsense you spew constantly. You just find it convenient to believe, with all the entertainment it comes with.

And I know that, supposedly, God and Jesus are one. That doesn't change my point at all. If you use your common sense, not your Christian sense, you'd see that bloodshed = bad, which is something your religion teaches. Thou shall not murder? So what kind of contradiction would it be if God shed 'His own blood', and gave us a reward for it?

You don't seem to catch things too quickly, so here.

Man killed by another man. Man sinned against God = Shunned by Christianity. God punishes man.

Jesus, savior of humanity and God's manifestation, killed by Romans. Men sinned against God = Revered by Christianity. God... cleanses sins?

Also, why is Jesus God? How could anyone have been able to say 'Jesus is God' back then? It wasn't like it was said during his time. Jesus was only written about far after his death. How could someone then be distinguished as God? He supposedly produced miracles, but Moses parted the sea. Moses brought forth the Ten Plagues. All of these are huge phenomenon, but no one, not for a second, said that he was God. He was chosen by God, and if the Christian idea of Jesus is in any way true, it is severely flawed at that point.

I keep saying he died on the cross for our sins because it's a fact and that's the point of the Christian religion. He came down from Heaven to die on the cross, shed his own blood for the sins we commit so that we could enter Heaven, I never saaid it makes our sins dissappear I said it allows us to see Heaven if we repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord & Savior. And no not all Christians believe that once Jesus died your safe. You MUST except Jesus and repent your sins in order to be saved and see Heaven. And you MUST "try" to live a righteous life and not repeat those sins.

Yes, we do not deserve Heaven but he had so much love for his creation, he sacrifised himself for us. Like I said before him dying on the cross doesn't "remove" your sins, you repenting removes them, him dying allows you a second chance and allows you to be FORGIVEN for your sins. Only you can remove your sins.

Dude, you can believe what you want in us not being really Christians, that's your beliefs and freedom of speech but I do not judge what you believe nor will I ever. But not all churches are like that...a lot of the activities Christians have are CHRIST-related...my old church had Youth Retreats which was centered around God so I think you got that part all wrong. Church is about praying, hearding the word of God and connecting with other believers..it's not just for praying.

I am using my common sense and my beliefs combined. It's not contradicting about the bloodshed part because God is NOT human, he has eternal life and has amazing powers...Jesus was not only God but he rose 3 days later so he's really not dead.

God never punished man for his sins, you are punishing yourself. It says in the Bible if you are not with God your with the Devil.

God cleanses your sins so that you may enter Heaven but you have to repent and also remove the sins from your own life.

You obviously didn't read the Bible, Jesus was written about before his death, he did amazing miracles such as turning water into wine...ect...

Jesus said that he is the the light, the way and the truth (or something like that, maybe not exactly but close to it) no ONE will see the father but through me which is in fact God. He claimed he was the Messiah meaning "Lord".

You are getting frustrating, and this debate is losing its value. You constantly argue whatever you want, without proof, and without taking into account any points people posted. You take a quote, butcher it to find exactly what you want to comment on, which is usually completely irrelevant to the topic, and then repeat your belief without backing it up. Then when someone asks for proof, you say more nonsense. You're horrible at this.

No, it's not nonsense, you just choose to be blind and not see.

Ok, man. Get this:

Have you heard of the Osiris/Dionysus myth? The "hero" was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25th, had a star appear at his birth, was visited by magi from the East, turned water into wine on a wedding, healed the sick, cast out demons, performed lots of miracles, rode a donkey into a special city, was betrayed for thirty pieces of silver, celebrated a meal with bread and wine, was put to death on a cross, descended to hell and resurrected on the third day, died to redeem the world's sins, then ascended to heaven and was seated beside God.

Sound familiar? That's not all.

Many religion studies reveal that almost every traditional faith has a central story of the son of a heavenly king who goes down into a dark world, suffering, dying and rising again, before returning to his upper world. Such stories tell us how a king/god wins a victory over his enemies. Scholars have made a list with about 30 or so names of saviours, such as Osiris, Horus, Krishna, Orpheus, Hermes, Balder, Adonis, Hercules, Attis, Mithras, Tammuz of Syria, Beddru of Japan, Deva Tat of Siam, and many more.

This is a quote from a prophecy of the Persian divinity Zoroaster: "A virgin should conceive and bear a son, and a star would appear blazing at midday to signalize the occurance. When you behold the star, follow it wherever it leads you. Adore the mysterious child, offering him gifts with profound humility. He is indeed the Almighty Word which created the heavens. He is indeed your Lord and everlasting King."

Sound familiar? The story of Jesus shares a common root with many ancient myths, however the only difference is that nobody among the ancients actually believed that any of their myths were in any way historical. What mattered was the deep, spiritual truth behind all of them. But Christianity twisted all that, and now everybody believes Jesus died to save us from our sins. What about all those ancient figures before him? The whole concept of Jesus has been twisted around for centuries, though very few realize it.

Because without Jesus you don't have Christianity. And that's precisely my point. Use your brain. It's a gift from god.

Then I suggest you do the same, use your brain oh while your at it, learn some respect for others beliefs. I am not converting anyone, just saying my beliefs and that is what I believe, so deal. Not everyone is going to agree with you, heck I don't. All I can say is I'm glad that when I die, I will see my Father in Heaven and I look forward to that

Wow, you're so idiotic. I bet you didn't even read my post. You have no rebuttal whatsoever. I just showered you with evidence, and you did nothing. You cannot, for the life of you, debate. It's called a debate for a reason - it's not a touchy-feely forum. You DEBATE. Bye-bye.

Yes, I did read your post, I read the whole thing and I prefer to stick to what I believe and that's that Jesus died on the cross and the fact that there is proof of his existance. I can debate but I honestly do not know what to say to that which is why I said nothing. As for me being idiotic...umm okay, learn some respect girlfriend cause you definitly dont have it. People like you should be banned afterall isn't one of the rules "respect others". Your definitly not doing that...your disrespecting me and MY beliefs and only because I don't agree with what you believe...that is pathetic. Oh and no I've never heard that story.

....Oh and how is that evidence? Wow, words on a screen...oh my!

Exactly, which is why you suck at this. Do some research and at least try to understand. Closed minded people like you are everywhere and it makes me sick.. And please, I have respect for people who actually make an effort.

I'm not disrespecting you for your beliefs, I'm making fun of you because you don't BACK UP your beliefs/opinions/whatever. Which is exactly what you're supposed to do here.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm "how is that evidence? wow, words on a screen" AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA what the hell did you expect, some professor to jump out of your screen? BUAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHHAHA. Yeah, okay. As I said, go do some research. And find out what a debate forum is. Might be useful in the near future.

Whatever you say hun. I am not close minded. I am seeing what your saying which means I am not close minded. I just chose not to leave my own beliefs for another belief based on what others tell me. If that makes me close minded then okay. Do some research yourself hun. Evidence is all around you. If you can't see it, your blind (not meaning to sound rude, but that is the truth). BTW...I thought you were leaving? lol...I do back up my beliefs and have in several other different posts, I've given the Bible, the Shroud of Turin and other things as evidence and you still don't believe it so whats the point? I bet you'd still deny God being God if he walked up to you.

I've read the bible and the koran, and I've done all kinds of research, which doesn't make me closed-minded, unlike you. What evidence exactly are you talking about? Care to explain? Mind you, the bible is not a reliable source, since it's evident that there have been numerous ancient texts with very similar content.

You aren't seeing what I'm saying because you aren't even commenting on it. But you said yourself that you didn't have anything to say, which is fine. A friend of mine refused to read a book called "The End of Faith" (you should read it, by the way) because it was "dangerous" to her faith. This reminds me of it.

Yeah, the evidence that Christianity is flawed is all around me, you're right. And I do see it =)

Btw, if god walked right into my room right now, I'll gladly have a beer with him. Cheers!

I'll take a look at it if I can find it and have the money to do so unless theres a free website you can point me to? The Bible is good evidence of God's existance because it was written by people who knew him personally and saw his works, none of the people sat down and wrote the story together, they did not know eachother yet wrote of the same thing (explain that) since news/tv wasn't around then? There is other evidence around you such as the way the world works such as the distance from the sun but if you want "real" evidence, I am reading a book not sure on the name, I forgot but it's about the Shroud of Turin and how they examined this cloth that covered Jesus during his burial before he rose 3 days later, the cloth was examined and they found a face of a man who had the same wounds as Jesus as described in the Bible which they believed proved to them that the Bible is in fact "real" not "fake". I have given you proof of his existance and still you deny him...so answer me this...what kinda proof are you wanting? We already have proof, your just not wanting to accept that proof!

Just because I am not commenting on what you said at that time doesn't imply I am close minded or that I am not seeing what your saying, I was tired at the time and wasn't taking that info in and I do see what your saying. I never heard the story so I can't really comment on that and I do go by my own beliefs rather beliefs such as that. Maybe my beliefs could be wrong, I don't know that but I'd rather love God and be with Christianity and go to Heaven, rather then not follow God and find out in the end I was wrong. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Now, your putting words in my mouth, I never said the evidence of Christianity is flawed is around you. I said the evidence of God's existance is all around you, you just have to look.



Ok you wanted my views on this so here they are.

First of all, you said myth, myths are fairy tales and not real. There is a possiblity that this story could of been made up after Jesus. Yes, the story sounds familiar, it's based off of Jesus. But I prefer to go with the story of Jesus and the man being Jesus than listen to a story like this..not saying I'm not open-minded but I am not going to change my beliefs just because they sound similiar and one might be flawed.

True, without Jesus you don't have Christianity...because that's what Christianity is, Jesus dying on the cross and Christianity stands for - "Christ Like" or "With Christ".

I really don't understand this topic. You want to know if Jesus is God's son...okay. Clear enough. You are stating that there is a God. The God. This God wrote the Bible through inspiration and God is infallible, therefore the Bible is infallible. The Bible talks about a man who is God's son. Jesus.

So, what's so hard to understand? You are acknowledging that there is a God by bringing up this topic.

Jesus is God incarnate. Think of the Trinity more as a set of offices. God is one being with three different roles. God[the father] God[the son] God[the holy spirit]. God the Father created everything, he is the ruler of the universe. Jesus, is the one whom we pray to. He was sent to forgive our sins and it is through Him whom we receive our salvation. The Holy Spirit was sent after Jesus left earth to watch over us, I guess you could say.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. God is everywhere. Eternity is bigger than this earth, it's bigger than this universe.

If time doesn't exist in eternity, how hard is it really to understand how God has so much power?

Come on...Ask me some other questions, hopefully I can answer them for you.

Very well put. You know what? I know this is off topic but have you ever thought about becoming a writer?

Yeah the Bible makes it pretty clear that Jesus is God, so if God exists Jesus must exist.

Yeah, I have thought about writing. But, I don't have the patience. I've tried writing short stories and gotten really side tracked. Plus, I like poetry better. I'm sure I have some in the writing section.
- - -
In Genesis there's a verse where its speaking from God's point of view, but its in the plural tense. I think it went something like...'And we created man in Our image, and it was good.' Something like that.

Jesus, is apart of that Triune body, and therefore God. I know we made it clear, but extra clarification isn't a bad thing to have. The word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, just to let you guys know. So, you don't waste your time searching in a concordance for 'Trinity'.




But there are technicalities that need to be taken into account here. For instance, when were these stories or myths written? Obviously, to make them valid and have a case against the Bible's account, they needed to be written before hand.

I've heard of a pagan story where a god was born from a virgin. I don't know what it was, I failed to get the details.

But there are people that get things mixed up. I've done it plenty of times. I'm only human.

I mean, if you look at every history of every ancient civilization they all reference a world wide flood. Maybe not every one, but a lot of them.



Doesn't it also say in the debate forum guidelines to not bash others? And it's obviously talking in general considering there are no specifics why you can't bash another person. So, you clearly fall under that line.

Wait, it does.

Sure, take a look at these books: "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur, any books by him for that matter - there are lots, "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris, "A Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris (this one in particular), "Who is Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan, "Retractiones" St. Augustine, and many many others. Just take a look at any of these. They raise brilliant questions. Oh and by the way, the internet is rarely good for such research. There are exceptions of course - like peer-viewed journals. But I access those through the Toronto Public Library, so I don't know how you could be able to get them.

No, the bible is not reliable because many of these stories have existed BEFORE the bible was written - such as Noah's ark for instance. Take a course on Ancient History - they will probably teach you all about it. Unless you live in the States, of course..

I don't doubt that Jesus existed, don't get me wrong. I'm sure he was a historical person. Nothing more, though. I'm sure he was crucified too - for crimes against the state. And people finding some cloth that belonged to him doesn't prove that the bible is in fact all true.

So many Christians are missing the point of the bible. Its point is to teach morals and spiritual truth, not to teach you that myths are in fact literal truth. But I doubt you will understand this.



Yeah, exactly. There is so much information out there, but people chose not to take a look at it, even when it's presented before them. If you really wanted to know about all this, you would make the effort. But, of course, it's easier to ignore it and go with what you believe - saves you a lot of time and thinking.

Thanks for saying the few last sentences of that paragraph. Now ask yourself, is it your brain that makes you believe or your fear?



I know, I know. Irony is hard to detect on the internet.. my mistake.



Hahaha, oh my. Those "stories" had been thought of WAY BEFORE Jesus was supposedly born. WAY before. I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge about Egyption religion? Of course you prefer to go with the easy and no-brainer story, as I said before, it's much easier and saves a LOT of effort. Hence why our world is in the state it is in the moment.


Precisely my point.





Yeah man, I know. I'm trying to be civil, actually.

ok
you keep saying all this stuff but,
what you're not getting is that all the stuff you said revloves around the story of Jesus!
therefore, after these people heard about Jesus, they created all of this.

The Bible is actually a very reliable source, you just choose not to believe it is. As I have said before it was written by men who saw him do his works and none of the men knew eachother. Explain to me how all those men not knowing eachother wrote about the same thing? It's not like they had tv's so they knew about it lol.

The cloth doesn't prove that the Bible is true...hmm...um okay, well as I said if you didn't actually read it is that they found a cloth that depicted a man that was crusified, they could tell where his wounds were on the cloth being that it covered his whole entire body not just his face, the wounds presented on the cloth were the same wounds that appeared on Jesus by what the Bible says...so since both match, I would say yes the Bible was right when they talked of Jesus being crusified...it might not point out the whole Bible being true, but why would men write about Jesus lying about everything about him EXCEPT him dying on the cross, that doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, Jesus is a historical figure but he's also a religious figure that was killed. Crimes? No, he died because the people that didn't believe he was the son of God killed him, they believed he was a false prophet and that he was a liar...that is why he was killed and the fact that everyone that followed Jesus...there were even people that were probably killed just for following him.

Hun, actually I think your missing the point of the Bible, while everything you mentioned is true such as morals and stuff...the whole point of the Bible isn't for that, you obviously haven't read the Bible (sorry if I am wrong, it just appears that way), the Bible is about God's word, about him telling us how to better ourselves, to understand him and how we can get to Heaven...to not be deceived about all this other stuff.

So much info out there? So much presented before them? If, your trying to show info to people to get them to drop there religion, then yeah I understand why they are not paying attention to the info presented before them...that is there own beliefs and for someone to try to stir them away from that by putting words on a screen and telling them to research it, one isn't proof and second isn't right. I have in no way tried to even convert you. You are calling me close minded and for what? Because, I don't want to change my beliefs and believe what you want to believe in...that's retarded. I have read your posts, I have taken in what you have found, I just choose to stick to my beliefs and go with what God is telling me but that doesn't make me close minded, it means I love God and I am going to go with what I believe.

Those stories were thought about wayyy before he was born? So, your saying over 2,000 years ago. Do you have proof of that? Hard proof? Not just on paper? Well you know I have given you proof of his existance and you denied it so I'm going to do the same to you. What proof do you have? Word of mouth??

Precisly your point? You make no sense! If Christianity didn't exist, God or Jesus wouldn't exist, because Christianity is believing in God...but since God does exist, Christianity does exist. Your point really makes no sense to this argument.

I really don't think your trying to be civil, your bashing me because I choose not to go with what you believe and the fact you don't want to hear what I have to say even though you keep reading anyway. Civil would be not being rude towards another person, listening to what I have to say and arguing back is in DEBATE without having an attitude.




Exactly! However, she is saying these stories that revolved around Jesus were created before his time :-/

Angelina. Heres what I found on that story of yours, read the last sentence:

The term Osiris-Dionysus is used by some historians of religion to refer to a group of deities worshipped around the Mediterranean in the centuries prior to the birth of Jesus. It has been argued that these deities were closely related and shared many characteristics, most notably being male, partly-human, born of virgins, life-death-rebirth deities and other similar characteristics.


[edit] Ancient syncretism
Osiris and Dionysus had been equated as long ago as the 5th century BC by the historian Herodotus (see interpretatio graeca). By Late Antiquity, some Gnostic and Neoplatonist thinkers had expanded this syncretic equation to include Aion, Adonis, Attis, Mithras and other gods of the mystery religions. The composite term Osiris-Dionysus is found around the start of the first century BC, for example in Aegyptiaca by Hecateus of Abdera, and in works by Leon of Pella.

With the growth of Christianity, some pagan polemicists (notably Celsus) charged that the Gospels' narrative of Jesus's death and resurrection was in fact a bastardized reworking of the sufferings of Dionysus and other similar gods. Christian apologists like Justin Martyr charged in turn that the pagan mystery-cults were degenerate adaptations of vague Biblical prophecies about the Jewish Messiah - although neither Osiris nor Dionysus show many similarities to the actual prophecies. The rituals and mythology however are strikingly like the Christian gospels: bread and wine as the body and blood, resurrection on the third day, virgin birth to a father who is a god, etc. Christian apologists charged the devil of copying Jesus' life into the past. Jews like Philo of Alexandria also observed similarities and postulated that the pagan religions had borrowed from Jewish scriptures. However, due to the probable dates when the jewish scriptures were composed, it is almost certain that the reverse was true.

Nooo, those stories were created BEFORE the time of Jesus, or at least that's what I've been taught and have researched and read. I think I know =) I'm not 100% positive, but very close to it.



Actually, nobody's really sure whether those stories were written by men who knew Jesus. And nobody knows if for instance John wrote John's gospel, etc. So those aren't facts.



Actually, the time when Jesus was crucified was a time when Romans crucified hundreds of people, so how does that prove anything? By the way I recently heard that they have found a body which is thought to belong to Jesus, but that's all I know.

Also, I don't like repeating myself, but here - I don't doubt that Jesus existed and was crucified. I think he was crucified because at that time they crucified people who had done crimes against the state. And everybody knows the Romans feared a revolution at that time and they thought Jesus played a main role in it.



I HAVE read the bible, thanks. I've also been taught about it and I was a devoted Christian until I started using my brain. It IS about God's word telling us how to better ourselves, which is exactly what I meant by morals. Read, man.



Actually no, all I'm trying to do is make people think, but obviously that isn't working very well =) But that's ok. It's like that with many people. Just be open-minded. That's all I ask. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs - you can believe anything, you can believe that there are gods upon the Rocky mountains and that Zeus is my best friend, and that Amon-Ra is the one true god, etc, I don't really care. But if you try to use your logic AS WELL as faith, it wouldn't be so bad.



I do have proof. Read the books I listed in my previous post. Or just check them out. But don't go around saying I have no proof. READ.

This is out of your paragraph:



Thank you for proving my point.

First of all, I've never heard anything nor has my boyfriend on them finding a body belonging to Jesus (and he's very good with history and keeping his ears open to things like that) it's not even on the news so I have no clue where you heard that from. And obviously you don't now the story of Jesus' to well since Jesus's body will NEVER be found because after he died on the cross and after he was buried, he rose 3 days later so of course there wont be a body to be found.

You were a devoted Christian until you started using your brain? Are you implying since I follow Jesus that I don't use my brain. I use my brain everyday, I just choose to follow Jesus because he is critical for my salvation and I'd like to see Heaven and the fact he did a lot for his people which I admire.

Your missing my point, it's not just about bettering yourself but telling you how you can see Heaven and stand before God...tells you about God's love and the people that cared about him..ect...

I am using my personal opinion, my logic and my Faith...your just too blind to see that. Just because I love God and claim I'm a Christian doesn't imply that all I am using is my Faith.

You know what makes no sense at all? Your telling me you have proof and to go read a book but the Bible in your opinion isn't proof? Why isn't it? It's a book of the history of Jesus. Your books you mentioned are the same thing so how in the world is that proof if mine isn't proof?

How is that proving your point? Your trying to tell everyone the stories were made BEFORE Jesus, the story says they BELIEVE they were made before Jesus but at the end it says because of the dates, it's the opposite (that's what reverse means in case you had no clue)..meaning the myths were actually made AFTER Jesus's birth. Meaning the story of Jesus is more accurate. So, I'm actually proving my point not yours.

Actually, not his body but his tomb. I doubt it's true though. I just felt like sharing information. Here:

http://www.thestar.com/article/191331

And please, I know Jesus' story very well, so well in fact that I EXPECT him to have a body on earth since I don't buy this nonsense about rising from the dead.

I'm telling you, man, I'm sure you use your brain, I've gotta stop using irony and sarcasm over the internet, that's all. =) Sorry!

I know what the bible's about, but in my opinion (which actually many people share) it's about morals and how to fulfill your life. Mainly. That is if you don't take the stories literally. Which is why I wouldn't say it's a bad book. It does teach good things.

Yes, the bible in my opinion isn't proof because it isn't fact. It isn't RECOGNIZED as fact by scholars. If you take a look at the sources I provided you with, you would understand my view. I highly recomment "the Pagan Christ" before anything else.

Oh my god, read your little research paragraph (which was from Wikipedia, right? I might be wrong.) Unless I'm completely moronic, this paragraph's last sentence says that JUDAISM took elements from Paganism.

"With the growth of Christianity, some pagan polemicists (notably Celsus) charged that the Gospels' narrative of Jesus's death and resurrection was in fact a bastardized reworking of the sufferings of Dionysus and other similar gods. Christian apologists like Justin Martyr charged in turn that the pagan mystery-cults were degenerate adaptations of vague Biblical prophecies about the Jewish Messiah - although neither Osiris nor Dionysus show many similarities to the actual prophecies. The rituals and mythology however are strikingly like the Christian gospels: bread and wine as the body and blood, resurrection on the third day, virgin birth to a father who is a god, etc. Christian apologists charged the devil of copying Jesus' life into the past. Jews like Philo of Alexandria also observed similarities and postulated that the pagan religions had borrowed from Jewish scriptures. However, due to the probable dates when the jewish scriptures were composed, it is almost certain that the reverse was true."


See ya.

P.S. Your means YOUR. You're means you are.

Heath21 - I'm guessing you've had a change of heart or something. After you and I debating with that Scott guy in the Evangelism thread awhile back, you seemed to be Agnostic. Now all of a sudden you're a Christian? That's a pretty fast jump in a month and a half. Either you are weak in what you believe now, or you were then. xD

I would love to go back and respond to everything that's been said, but I'm short on time. But why would God come as "Jesus", just to die for a select few? If the Christian faith is correct, that only those who accept him are saved, then 95% of the world is going to burn and suffer in a eternal hell. That right there is enough to prove Christianity false in my eyes... and then everything else that some of you have mentioned just confirms it.

Yeah I know about the tomb it was supposedly found in the 80's...I actually read it yesterday I think it is a possiblity it is true. Like I said your not going to find his body because he supposedly rose 3 days later and ascended to Heaven just as he had promised his people. If you don't believe that which is in the Bible you don't believe the word of God but I already knew that

The Bible has never been proven wrong and I would think someone as bright as you would rather go off of what people have said from actually "meeting" Jesus than people that make stories up because they don't believe in God. As I said before, God has not been disproved. We do not know if God exists but I have Faith that he does because of the Bible. But as I said before, the Bible has not been proved "wrong".

I have read the article I gave you which is the one you were talking about, I looked up the VERY name and it says that the reverse is true, meaning Jesus was in fact born before these stories. I really don't see what your trying to get at..honestly...

Yes, I know the difference between YOUR & YOU'RE...I did graduate high school in June 2002 and also completed a little bit of college. It's kinda hilarious though that your trying to pick out my grammar, wow!



I was agnostic then, but anything is possible in God's eyes. I started thinking after that conversation and it wasn't him who changed my mind but my own thoughts and feelings. I felt immense guilt and God touching my heart, therefore I decided to re-submit my life to him and I've never been happier. Just because I change automatically out of nowhere doesn't mean I'm weak, it means I had a chance of heart and I became saved..it happends all the time.

God wants EVERYONE to go to Heaven but since sin cannot enter Heaven people must accept him to go to Heaven and sit before him. It makes sense to me but of course it's not going to to an unbeliever, believe me, at once point in my life - i was in your exact same shoes.

And no he didn't die for a select few, he died for everyone but only a select few will make it to Heaven because of there actions. Jesus died on the cross so that we could be forgiven to make it to Heaven. And it's not 95%.

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Mar 16 2007, 4:41 PM)

Yeah I know about the tomb it was supposedly found in the 80's...I actually read it yesterday I think it is a possiblity it is true. Like I said your not going to find his body because he supposedly rose 3 days later and ascended to Heaven just as he had promised his people. If you don't believe that which is in the Bible you don't believe the word of God but I already knew that

Good, I'm glad some of my words inspired you to do some research. My prof said they were talking about a body that supposedly belonged to Jesus, but that has been criticized and I haven't heard about it much.

QUOTE

The Bible has never been proven wrong and I would think someone as bright as you would rather go off of what people have said from actually "meeting" Jesus than people that make stories up because they don't believe in God. As I said before, God has not been disproved. We do not know if God exists but I have Faith that he does because of the Bible. But as I said before, the Bible has not been proved "wrong".

What? Yes it has. Parts of it, at least. Not "wrong" but borrowed from various ancient writings, such as Noah's ark, which was found in Old Babylon, if I'm not mistaken. And I've already mentioned lots of other examples which have been found elsewhere =) That, for me, including some of the illogical dogma found there, is enough for me not to take it as a fact.

QUOTE

I have read the article I gave you which is the one you were talking about, I looked up the VERY name and it says that the reverse is true, meaning Jesus was in fact born before these stories. I really don't see what your trying to get at..honestly...

Learn how to read. It clearly says the following: "Jews like Philo of Alexandria also observed similarities and postulated that the pagan religions had borrowed from Jewish scriptures. However, due to the probable dates when the jewish scriptures were composed, it is almost certain that the reverse was true."

I'm not going to explain it more to you. If you don't understand it.. wow. I've been speaking English for 4 years and I get it =) It's not that hard.

QUOTE

Yes, I know the difference between YOUR & YOU'RE...I did graduate high school in June 2002 and also completed a little bit of college. It's kinda hilarious though that your trying to pick out my grammar, wow!

=)

By the way, you didn't answer my question: is it your brain that makes you believe or your fear?