Very true!

We aren't just going to take your word for it.
Proof? Such as what?

No, there isn't.

That was pointless. If you geniunely believe that, offer some of said proof.

You want proof? Okay heres your proof one the Bible, which was never even said to be false, ever, they have never proved that, it was actually proved quiet opposite. Some of you are probably gonna think that the people who wrote this book were liars...but why lie about it and several different authors (meaning John, Matthew) wrote what they saw, none of them knew eachother and lived far from eachother. So, theres your proof right there.

Still not convincing you. I recently picked up a book that was written awhile ago on the Verdict of The Shroud. In case none of you know what I'm talking about. They found a shroud called the "Shroud of Turin"...apparently by what the Bible says it covered Jesus bodied while he was in his burial place, they covered him with a cloth. In the book they found this cloth and examined it, the book was written by 2 people that actually were there to exame this cloth...they found an image of a man's face with wounds in certain places on his body as described in the Bible as Jesus dying on the cross...this cloth is not new so no someone didn't recently make it and it wasn't a painting because they found no pigment. That shows you right there that the Bible is in fact true because every wound in this mans body shown by the cloth was mentioned in the Bible which causes the cloth to be connected to the Bible which shows and proves that the Bible is in fact truth and not made up.

Lets see..proof is also all around you, look at how perfect the earth is, if it was any closer we'd burn up, if we were just a tad bit further from the sun we'd freeze, or what about the water..it has no taste yet we must drink it in order to survive. What about the human brain? Just look around, you'll see proof of his existance and that this is his creation. Meaning God.

Hmmm...people keep saying they want proof, proof, proof. Thing is and yes I did read this in a study Bible but it is quite true. People long ago didn't believe in God at all, so about 2,000 years ago God decided to send his son Jesus Christ to show people that God does exist and of course to die on the cross to save us of our sins so we could enter Heaven. So, 2,000 years ago there was proof, Jesus came and proved to everyone that he was the son of God, did miracles and miraculous signs, many many people followed him and believed him but MANY did not believe he was the son of God..they called him a liar and a false prophet. So, even though they were shown, they still didn't believe it. So tell me this, since you guys keep saying "I want proof" be honest with me...if God returned to earth just as Jesus did 2,000 years ago would you believe him? Or would you be like those other thousands of people who do not even believe when they saw? It's quite interesting...

One thing I've been taught as a Christian, sometimes in order to see something you must trust it and believe in it. That is definitly true because sometimes seeing isn't always believing, no matter how much you are shown you will NOT believe it.

The Theory of Evolution is not a scientific law or a law of biology. A scientific law must be 100% correct. Failure to meet only one challenge proves the law was wrong. This web page will prove that the Theory of Evolution fails many challenges, not simply one. The Theory of Evolution will never become a law of science because it is wrought with errors. This is why it is called a theory instead of a law.

The process of natural selection is not an evolutionary process. The DNA in plants and animals allows selective breeding to achieve desired results. Dogs are a good example of selective breeding. The DNA in all dogs has many regressive traits. A desired trait can be produced in dogs by selecting dogs with a particular trait to produce offspring with that trait. This specialized selective breeding can continue for generation after generation until a breed of dog is developed. This is the same as the "survival of the fittest" theory of the evolutionists. Many different types of dogs can be developed this way, but they can never develop a cat by selectively breeding dogs. Natural selection can never extend outside of the DNA limit. DNA cannot be changed into a new species by natural selection. Diamond back rattle snakes cannot be selectively bred until you have one with wings that jumps in the air and flies away. Evolution is impossible.

The same process is done with flowers, fruit and vegetables. New variations of the species are possible, but a new species has never been developed by science. In fact, the most modern laboratories are unable to produce a left-hand protein as found in humans and animals.

If natural selection were true Eskimos would have fur to keep warm, but they don't. They are just as hairless and everyone else. If natural selection were true humans in the tropics would have silver, reflective skin to help them keep cool, but they don't. They have black skin, just the opposite of what the theory of natural selection would predict. If natural selection were true humans at northern latitudes should have black skin, but they have white skin instead, except for the Eskimos. Many evolutionist argue that melanin is a natural sunscreen that evolved in a greater amount to protect dark skinned people who live near the Equator. They simply ignore the fact that dark skinned Eskimos live north of the Arctic Circle. Melanin in the skin is not a sound argument in favor of evolution. The theory of natural selection is wrong because it cannot create something in the DNA that wasn't there in the beginning.

The cheetah in Africa is an example of an animal in the cat family with very limited variety in the DNA. Each cheetah looks like an identical twin. The cheetah DNA is so identical within each animal that the skin from one cheetah can be grafted into another cheetah without any rejection by the body.

Evolution is just so hard to believe.

Firstly, it goes against certain scientific principles, such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die.

Everything in the universe is slowing down and dying. According to evolution, there is a progress in all living things.

If evolution were true, our sun would be burnt out. The sun gets smaller and smaller each year.

Think about this one. There is so much information in the human body that if you put it all into 100Gig hard drives, it would go from Earth to Pluto four times over.

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real"
-Charles Darwin

I agree with you on Evolution, even before I became a Christian I found it hard to believe. I always believed God made everything because I was brought up to believe that but because it just makes more sense to me. However, I was also taught there are two types of Evolution, theres the Evolution that supposedly created the planet and then theres the Evolution that created species over generations/time which is the one I believe in. Such as dogs into dogs, birds into birds...ect...Just like the other person said, Evolution is not a law but a Theory that has not yet been proven.

That's theistic evolution. But, if you believe in evolution you can't believe the rest of the Bible.

The first verse states that God created the heavens and the earth. Then the following verses tell how He created living things and water, and the sun, and whatnot.

So, you believe that God created the earth, and the evolution took place creating all living things? The gap theory and the day age theory?

Here's a good question I have for you...

Gen. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Gen. 1:15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen. 1:16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

Gen. 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Gen. 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen. 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Now, after reading those verses...what do you get out of it?

What I get out of it is that God created plants before the sun. How is that significant? Well, if in fact Genesis uses the word 'day' as referring to big gaps of time, such as millions of years, then how did the plants survive?

Another thing is that the word 'day' in Genesis is referring to a literal 24 hour day. If you look at the original Hebrew translations, the word used for 'day' was 'yom' which if you read, means a literal 24 hour day.

There's my two cents.

Well, I think it depends on the type of Evolution, if you believe that Evolution created the earth and everything then you can't believe in the Bible that's just impossible. But, I don't believe in that. What I believe in is that God created the earth, everything in it, including humans and animals but I believe in the evolution in the sense as dogs are dogs, birds are birds. For an example, there are different types of dogs, such as the Wolf being in the dog family. That is what I believe or what I believe could be possible. I do not believe Evolution created the earth or that a human can mate with a bird or anything like that. I believe as humans and animals we have evolved into other animals that are closely related to that specific family if that makes sense?

I believe that God created the earth but he allowed Evolution over time in (species) to happen...such as like I described above. Don't get me wrong, I believe he did make the first animals, I just believe Evolution is when different species are formed from the same species but are not 100% alike such as the wolf thing I brought up, it's not really a dog but it comes from the dog family.

I really don't know how to answer your Question but it does make sense how did all the plants and grass survive if he created them before the light cause the plants need light to survive and water. But then again were talking about God which you know the saying - "Everything is possible with God". So, if this was his creation, he could make that stuff before the light. There's a possiblity he could of made those things to survive before light until he could of created the light and changed everything or he could of saw that they needed light and then created it to save those plants/trees or whatever. But idk, that's a hard Question because I do see what your saying but like I said with God anythings possible.

Yeah the word "day" signifies a 24 hour day and night of course is night.

Dude, I believe the Bible more than you do, and I don't believe that story. If you look at the carbon 14 dating, it's all over the place. Only a couple of the tests done were found to be around 2000 years old.

Whose to say that it is in fact Jesus' burial shrouds? Whose to say that some one didn't mimic Jesus' wounds and start a conspiracy? I really don't think that anyone will ever know who those shrouds belonged to simply because we don't have any DNA to link to anyone. I mean, if the Bible is correct then Jesus' body is no longer on earth.

It just seems like you're reaching out of the air and trying to start arguments you can't back up. You clearly haven't studied the Bible in depth because you believe in Theistic Evolution, which I think is the most absurd type out there. And what does the taste of water have anything to do with anything? If you really wanted to get into it, water is a representation of God. H2O. Three molecules, a representation of the Trinity. Water is the only substance on the planet that can remain in all three states of matter at once. Solid, Liquid and Gas. Amazing huh?

Also, how can you say that people before Christ didn't believe in God? Have you even read the Bible? Adam, the first person on the face of the planet believed in God. There have definitely those who chose, or if you believe that there is no free will, forced to believe there is no God.

There was a time, yes, when everyone except a few believed there was a God. The story of Noah's Ark. Everyone was heathen except Noah and his family.

So, to say that people didn't believe in God before Jesus' arrival here on earth is a stretch.

Haha, here's another one to bust your balls...

So, by your own admittance you say that anyone who performs miracles, and miraculous signs is God? That's what you're saying whether you realize it or not.

The anti-Christ is a figure during the end times who appears to God. He is the false prophet. He mimics God and all he does. He is assassinated, and then miraculously resurrects. He causes a statue to come to life.

A miracle is defined as something that happens out of the norm. So, therefore the anti-Christ performs miracles. True?

Plug up those holes in your story. I'm getting some leakage on me.

Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with you. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. That's what you need to get stronger in your faith. Some one who opposes you. Cause if you don't you'll never grow.



Dude, that's not evolution.

By that statement, I'm a product of evolution. I'm Irish, I'm American, I'm French. You have to come to realize the details. A wolf is still a dog. It's apart of the dog family, therefore a dog. It's just a variation within the kind. No animal can ever mate outside of it's kind unless there are certain defects. I don't know if you ever heard of this one, but they breaded a cat with a rabbit. They have certain genetic make ups that allow them to do so, but the thing is so horribly disfigured that it is illegal to create one.

So, variations within a kind is far from evolution. What else do you believe about evolution?



But that would make God inconsistent. Therefore fallible and therefore not God.

Why would God make a plant to exist without light if it doesn't work?

Oh no problem. I am not offended, I actually look forward to your responses because you have good points and good Questions.

I believe in the Shroud of Turin all the way, as I said the Bible talks of the wounds Jesus had and the Shroud shows the exact same location as the wound and the cloth was described to be from the same time as Jesus and in the same area where he was buried. Of course his body isn't there, he rose 3 days later and ascended to Heaven.

Yes, I do read the Bible everyday, I am not a Bible fanatic and I don't know everything but then again no one does but God. I do not know one person that has answers to EVERYTHING in the Bible and understands it all.

I am not trying to start arguments but giving you proof of the existance of God.

As I said before I don't really believe in Evolution, I believe that God created everything. If what I described isn't Evolution then I guess I don't believe in Evolution then eh?

Well the Devil never did miraculous signs, he is the Lord of Lies. Plus, the Bible says that Jesus was baptised and also baptised others...so if he was the Devil I don't think he'd be able to be baptised...

I don't think the Devil or anyone pulling you back from your religion keeps your Faith stronger, God keeps your Faith stronger but I get what you mean.

I never said God was the Devil. You said that. I simply said that you stated something that would make the devil equal with God if all He was known by His miracles and miraculous signs. The devil never did that...yet. He will. Read Revelation. It talks about that stuff. He does things that make him appear to be God. He's the great deceiver. The great imitator. The great liar.

If he wasn't then he'd be a pretty bad devil. Haha. Why wouldn't he be able to be baptized? The Bible never says that he isn't. He takes on a human form, and might very possibly be brought up in the religious community. Who knows.

Well, it looks like I rid you of all your evolution. Ha ha. Seriously, what you believe in is only what you thought was evolutionary principles, but in fact just regular scientific mumbo jumbo.

Animals reproduce after their own kinds. Scientific fact. It's observable. So, the only person who can tell you what you believe is you. So, figure it out.

Well, I don't believe he could be baptised in God's name because the whole point of baptism is accepting Jesus into your heart and cleansing of your sins. Ever seen the movie - "The Exorcist"? That was supposedly based off true events. In the movies, whenever the water (blessed water) touched the demon or devil he would burn and they always use this concept in all devil/god related movies.

Yeah I know what you mean. It does say in the Bible that there will be many false prophets who will say they are Jesus but to not be deceived by them and if you follow those false prophets your breaking one of the 10 commandments, do not follow other Gods or something like that.

wow, what a good debate! I like your points Heath21!

Oh thanks Jess, glad you could join us :) Any thoughts?

Yeah the devil couldnt be baptized in Jesus name, cus name Jesus drives him out of people, he flees from that name, so i think it would be ironic to baptize the devil cus wouldnt it cast the devil out of him,lol, maybe it would, lol, that would be awesome, lol.

Jess you crack me up lol...but yeah your right and that makes sense. It's just impossible to baptise the Devil unless of course he decides he wants to repent of his sins and accept Jesus as his savior..but I doubt that'll ever happen, it would be funny to see though

Well there is a lot i can say about Evolution vs. Creation. First of all i beleive in Creation. I believe that things have individually evolved over time, that humans have evolved into different looking humans, birds into different birds, dogs into dogs, etc. Thats the only evolution i believe in and i think that is called micro evolution. Macro evolution i think is what scientists claim to be how we are what we are today and that the world started out as molecules or particles and they came together and caused to big bang theory and the world was suddenly formed and then species formed and they formed into other species and so on, basically that everything is related to one simple life form, meaning we as humans used to be molecules, adams, particles, bugs, fish, apes, and now humans, lol. Its rediculous. Its a lie driven by the devil, i mean what a perfect way to get millions to not believe that God created the world, its working pretty good too, its even taught in our schools as fact, sad, so very sad. Scientists have been proven wrong on so many points they have made about evolution, but when they get to the bible, they cant prove anything wrong cus it all makes sense.




yeah it will never happen, the bible prophecies that the devil will be bound in hell by God in the end along with all his evil angels and all the lost souls. So we know Jesus will win in the end, thats what makes this whole game of life so awesome, is that we already know that our God will win the fight, and we will have the victory over evil.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to explain to JakeKKing about the whole dog thing and such cause I believe in that type of Evolution. But he says that is not Evolution. But idk, all I know is God created everything. It is sad that schools teach that rather then God though.

Yeah its sad. This country was founded by Christians, and Christian morals, look at our laws, they are all moral, because Christians put them into action. And now God is not allowed in schools. Its really disapointing. Good thing is now the schools are allowed to have one bible based optional coarse. Many schools have opened a class for that, but most havent gotten enough requests for that yet so kids are still left with only option of evolution teachings. When i have kids, im home schooling them until high school, then their going to a private Christian school. Cus i dont want lies put in their heads, those lies almost ruined my life until i found the truth and let Jesus into my heart.

You have to be careful with some Christian based schools though, one of Morgan's friends Lanai and Darius are Christians and attended a Christian based college in Eugene, Oregon and Lanai was thrown outta college because they said she was a slut when she never did anything wrong. I don't know what I'll do with my kids, probably just let them attend normal school, I want my kids to make there own decisions, I am not going to force them to follow God...my mom never did, I just was lead to it on my own which is even better. So, if your meant to be a Christian it will happen in due time Plus my boyfriend would never agrere with me doing the whole Christian school thing with our kids cause he's non-Christian and doesn't have a Religion, he'd disagree with me. Well, yeah of course it's founded by Christians, I mean look at the whole - "In God we Trust" lol...

That was a movie. Most movies are made with a Catholic influence, such as the Exorcist, Constantine, Dogma, and such.

Holy water is a Catholic tradition. I don't believe that people can bless things and use it against the supernatural.

Baptism if you are Christian doesn't mean salvation. Baptism is just an outward sign that you've accepted Jesus in your heart. A covenant none the less.

But for the anti-Christ to be brought up in a religious background would be more than reasonable. First, the devil has vast knowledge of the Lord, and anyone who can see this wouldn't let it go unnoticed. He would probably have been put in a religious school. I could be wrong. Secondly, if you read through history, people back in the medieval times believed that the pope was the anti-Christ. If you think about it, the pope in the Catholic sect of Christianity is seen as an intermediary between God and humans. The pope's status as some how a spirit filled human could definitely have given the impression on the general populace that the pope was the anti-Christ.

Not to mention the fact that the anti-Christ is the Morning Star, telling us that he is spiritual. He believes in God, no doubt...he was put in Hell by God. To say he's not spiritual I think is just idiotic. I mean, God is definitely a big part in his life, probably more than anybody on this planet. At least until we die.

As for baptism. Considering he is the great deceiver baptism would just be another ritual to pass for inspection. Right?

No. If that was the case, there probably wouldn't be an anti-Christ. The name alone doesn't cast demons out of bodies. It's either by a prophet or Jesus Himself, from what I've read in the Bible. The whole ritual with certain texts and holy water is a Catholic tradition.



You know the Bible talks about marriages between two people of different religions is considered a 'no-no'?


How did we ever get away from talking about Creation and Evolution?

Let's get back on topic.

I know I'll probably get scolded for this, but sorry for double posting, I just took a little too long while posting.

Yeah but wasn't the Exorcist based off of true events?

It's not just catholics that use Holy Water, my old church was non-Denominational and my pastor has done exorcisms on people with God's word and Holy Water, all holy water is is blessed water. Plus, Jessica told me she had to have her pastor come over to put holy water on her home because of Evil spirits (the devil) after that everything stopped almost completely and well she's not a Catholic, she's Pentacostal.

To most Churches baptism is an outward experience but it's not. And if you've read the Bible you'd seen that, in one verse it says in order for you to see the Kingdom of God meaning Heaven you must be baptised with water and of the holy spirit. Baptism is more than just an outward experience.

No, you're right. Catholics aren't the only ones that use Holy Water. But, alot of denominations that Protestant often still retain Catholic traditions. It could be very true that the exorcism was based on real events. I'm not saying a girl couldn't be possessed.

Pentacostal. Ha. That's all I can say about that. Pentacostals are very liberal in their faith. Speaking in tongues, slain in the spirit. I don't believe any of those things because of Cecassionism. That is the belief that those ideals are brought upon by demonic influences. Speaking in tongues was a practice that given up centeries upon centeries ago.

I believe in being anointed. Maybe Jessica got those confused. The use of Holy water is just a ridiculous practice.