Lets do it simply. I might have to butcher grammar for the sake of my argument.

There is a man named Mark. Mark was born. God knows Mark was born. Correct?

If correct, continue.

Mark comes to a point in his life where he encounters evil things. God knows, and knew the day would come beforehand. Correct?

It correct, continue.

Mark chooses to follow the evil. This goes against God. God knows Mark does this, and knew he would do this beforehand. Correct?

If correct, continue.

Mark commits many sins after this. This goes against God. God knows Mark does this, and knew he would do this before he actually did. Correct?

If correct, continue.

Mark dies. Mark gets sent to Hell for going against God so many times. God knows Mark is going to hell, and knew he would beforehand. Correct?

If correct, continue.

If you are at this point, and all other things are true, then God must have known that Mark was going to go to hell, and how he would go to hell, before Mark was even born. God created Mark knowing exactly what he would do in his life. Correct?

If correct, continue.

God has the power to create, and thus picks who is born into what conditions. By placing a person in different conditions, a person's future changes. By placing Mark in his conditions instead of other conditions, he allowed for one of Mark's futures to occur, and not any others. Correct?

If correct, continue.

By attaching a person to specific conditions, knowing what each condition would bring, God controls the futures of his creations. He put me in my family in NY, sealing my future, which would have been different if I was born in another place, a second later, or different looking.

To describe how conditions change futures, here are some examples.
A man born on a farm comes in contact with animals, labor, and the suburbs. If he was born on C Avenue in NYC, he would come in contact with gangs, bums, and drugs. By being placed in different conditions, the man holds different futures. By God placing him in one condition which He picked, God is picking which future he wants the man to hold.

ADDITIONAL POINT:

By God knowing our future, having assigned each one to each person with the conditions they were born into, it is impossible for us to choose an option he does not forsee. If I come to a fork in the road, one path leading to Point A, and one path leading to Point B, I'd think I could pick where I was going to go. However, God already knows what I am going to pick, which, for this case, will be the path to Point B. In my mind, I can debate all I want about which path I should take, but no matter what I think of, I will follow to Point B. This is because God is never wrong, and if God sees the future, God cannot be wrong about that either. So he picks which future we lead with his abilities to pick our conditions and see the future, and makes sure we do not break from his foretelling, he uses his ability to never be wrong. The choices we make are therefore concieved before we are even born, and we have no option but to follow through with them.

Therefore, from a religious standpoint, it is impossible to have a free will. This is what everyone has been trying to explain, but didn't break it down into steps. I hope this helped someone, and I'd like to see Heath21 not understand this.

And I thought my story was simple.

Looks good Ariel, let's see.

It is still free will because he's allowing you to make that choice, he's just seeing what the choice will be. Seeing and knowing don't stop you from having free will.

Did you completely ignore my argument, which took up most of this page?

You seem to just not want to be wrong, and you can't hear or see anything that goes against Christianity.

First of all, you say God created people knowing that they would sin. God didn't create sin but Adam and Eve sinned and brought sin into the world. God created man in his image. WE STILL HAVE FREE WILL...as I said before God gives us a choice. If you go to Hell that is YOUR CHOICE, God doesn't want anyone to perish, it even says this...it also says "If your not with me, your against me". God gave everyone a choice to make, to either follow him or not follow him there for that is FREE WILL.

And this is when religion makes people so closed-minded.

Do you actually know what Free Will means?

Nope, I just read it and responsed to it.

I seem to not just want to be wrong...haha that's funny. So your assuming I am wrong and your right...right. Actually I'm going against it not because of my religion but because it makes absolutely no sense. We have free will and God is all knowing, but that doesn't stop us from having that free will. As I said before it has NOTHING absolutely NOTHING to do with my religion...if you want to believe that, go ahead...but it's common sense, it doesn't make sense.



Closed minded? Well, in my opinion your being just as close minded as I am so don't talk. And I am not being close minded, as I said before, it just makes no sense, a God having knowledge of everything can give free will.



Yes I do actually, but the question is do you? Free will is the ability to make your own decisions/choices without the control of something or someone.

We'd be open minded too if you made some valid points. So far, you've only proven that you don't understand what free will means, and that you don't understand much of anything. I'm really frustrated now, I can't believe I spent so much time writing that.

God does have control. A person can have many futures based on his living conditions. God sees each of these futures, and puts the soul into the conditions he sees fit. In this way, he is picking the future. If he picks, he controls. That's kind of the idea.

Lets say I have two futures before I am born into a body. One is that I become a murderer. Another is that I save many people. Lets say God puts me into the body where I'd save many people. Isn't that controlling my future? That way, I'm not going to be a murderer, and though I wouldn't know it, God has picked that choice for me.

For the love of this thread, just tell me what you find wrong with that. Pick out the sentence and tell me. Because I'm dying to know what the hell you're talking about.

Don't respond. Debate.

LOL you crack me up, seriously, you really do. I've only proved that I don't understand what free will really means? What is your definition of free will? As I said before, Free Will is the ability to make choices/or decisions that isn't controlled by another person or higher being. At least that's what Free Will used to be unless you changed it for your own meaning?

Thats exactly what it is. And if God chooses what future we'll hold, he chooses what we'll do in our future. Therefore, the essence of free will is destroyed.

As a matter of fact, I was never really even against you in this "debate" (if you even want to call it that); My initial intentions were actually to make sure you could even understand the other concept of "God's omniscience and free will." That's why I even went through that whole story bit.

This isn't even a debate anymore; people are just trying to see if you can even understand.

When does religion make people closed minded? When people can no longer even understand relatively simple concepts such as this, only because it's contradicts their own religious standpoint.

He doesn't choose our future but knows our future, choosing and knowing whats gonna happen are two totally different things.

For f**k's sake, he chooses because he picks which future we're going to play out. Stop skimming, and read my entire response, not just whatever you feel like.

ONE PLUS ONE IS TWO. I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW FRUSTRATING THIS IS.

I never asked you when people are close minded because of Religion, I said I am NOT being close-minded. And if you think religion is the cause of that, then okay whatever..my boyfriend agrees with me and he doesn't even hold a religion or believe in God...umm so yeah..he doesnt understand how you get all knowing outta free will and how they are even connected because you can have free will given by God and still have an all knowing God. All knowing doesn't stop you from having free will.



No he sees our future to see what our choices will be. If it frustrates you so much, don't come back and debate...you are not forced to come here.

do you use God in every single arguement? what if a big ass blob of poo came and hit earth? whats your explanation? god got hungry and ate too much mexican food?

Control as in .... your life being determined (not controlled) by timeless, universal and infallible knowledge of all of your actions?

Follow your reasoning to the end. Either I am right or God is wrong.

No, I don't use him in every single arugment but um we are talking about God so yeah

we are talking about it cause you keep bringing it up

All I'm going to say to this, is that I know you didn't ask me when people are closed minded; I just thought it'd be something you should know.

You. Are. So. Stupid.

I don't even care about member bashing. This is an exception to the rule, as this girl, Heath21, could be the stupidest waste of existence I have ever heard from. If you laid down your ultra-radical Christian beliefs for one minute and debated like a human being, perhaps you would make some sense, and perhaps we would mind your opinion. However, you have only left us with a bitter taste in our mouths of idiocity. You are stupid, your boyfriend is stupid, and anyone who could not begin to understand another side to this debate is stupid.

At a point, I understood you and simply wanted to show my beliefs as well. I really wanted to input to the debate, because this topic really makes you think. Now, I just want to leave, and now, I, as well as anyone who read your response, just want you to shut the hell up, because your opinion is just ignorant, close-minded, and hypocritical.

People like you make me believe there is no God.

Haha, I actually brought this question up cause we had a Bible study tonight, and there really is no explanation for this besides... God has infinite knowledge. God says that we cannot understand anything on the level that He can. Such as God always existing. We cannot fathom how there was no beginning and God always was. Those are things that we need to have faith on, and we will never know in our life. That's all I can say. But I love this debate. It really makes me think. Thanks Acid Bath. :) :)

Actually no were talking about it because it's about free will and God giving free will...so umm read the thread before you disrespect me and judge me.



Actually you made yourself believe that and all I can say is WOW. You abviously have felt very hurt in your life to be calling others stupid. I'll be praying for you.

You can't right the right. Keep your prayers.

And I don't have to be hurt to call you stupid. You have to be stupid for me to call you stupid. Its pretty basic, but I don't think you'd understand.

I'm leaving now. I hope I amused someone, and spoke your minds as well.

Oh wow! Such disrespect. Do you honestly think that is hurting my little feelings. Nah, I don't think so.