That's exactly what i've said, you help yourself thinking HE will help you but in the end you have the good feeling that "someone" is looking after you and you are not alone, and that's the whole point, for some it matters for others it doesn't, in the end noone cares if you are like it or not, they will still belive in "something" no matter if you like it or not, if you dislike it or just hate it. It's their belief, its their choice and you can't do anything about it.
What you should take as granted is the fact that no matter whats your skin color nor what religion you follow, we are all humans and that's the only thing you should judge, evan if you have no right to do so.

Exactly! Now me, I try to live my life for myself and when I make a mistake, I correct and understand it was my fault for making it not Gods plan.

LoL, what makes you think that everything that happens around you its a part of HIS plan? HIS plan was 7 days long and it was somewhere way back in the past, now its up to you, to make your own plan, wich eventually its your own life, deal with it.

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Feb 1 2007, 4:02 PM)

Not sure who that was pointed towards, but I don't diss other religions if you were referring to me. I am just stating why I don't agree with the Christian religion. And I am not anti-God, I am anti-Religion at this point and time. I do believe there is a possiblity of God, I just don't believe in the Christian God exactly. I actually like learning about different religions, it's rather interesting.
I posted that because that's what I believe in and sorry if I worded it wrong I've been in a lot of pain lately.

I just believe if your God tells you to kill, then theres something not right here. If I was in your shoes and someone asked me if I'd kill a child if God told me to. I'd respond with - "No, I wouldn't because God would never tell me to do that!". Not - "Yes, I would".

The whole gay thing will not be answered by a preacher because most preachers will tell you it's a sin because the Bible tells you so. I just don't understand why God would judge them...I guess we'll never know until we die and ask that question.
What I've been trying to say all along. Everyone has there own interpretation of what the Bible or what God is trying to tell them. One person could believe being homosexual is ok while another finds it wrong. In my opinion I think God intended it that way (if he exists) and I believe that anything mentioned in the Bible such as - "don't steal, don't cheat, don't kill" are good rules to live by...I follow them even without God, I was brought up to follow those simple rules but all the other stuff like - "don't have sex before marriage because it's a sin, don't lust after someone" and all that in my opinion shouldn't be sinful in God's eyes...afterall, we ARE human.

This question is for everyone who claims that these are sins..if God didn't want us to do these things, why did he create them? I know your probably going to say free-will. But why would he even give us free will if these things are so bad..?

It's fine. =]
It's really hard to express yourself online because you can never think of the right words.
I understand what you're saying, that no God worth worshiping would ever kill a newborn baby. I know that. But that was just an example. I was saying that if God told me to do anything I would, not just kill a newborn baby. He tests people all the time to see if they are truly faithful. And you never know, if he DID tell someoen to kill a baby, they may just be an illusion or something. They may not even exist or they are already an angel.

It's clearly alright. I'm actually VERY sick...not in the throwing up sense but a different pain and it's hard to get my point across when all of a sudden I'll get this aweful pain but anyways...but i also believe if a God tells you to do something so aweful when it says - "do not kill" then God would be contradicting himself and I don't think I could live for a God like that.

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Feb 1 2007, 4:54 PM)

It's clearly alright. I'm actually VERY sick...not in the throwing up sense but a different pain and it's hard to get my point across when all of a sudden I'll get this aweful pain but anyways...but i also believe if a God tells you to do something so aweful when it says - "do not kill" then God would be contradicting himself and I don't think I could live for a God like that.

Hm. Good point. I've never thought off it like that.
And yeah, I'm pretty sick myself.
I'll look it up when I get home if I remember. But like I said, the "newborn baby" he tells you to kill may not actually exist. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah, I get you. But if the baby doesn't exist why would he ask you to kill it? What would be the purpose? What's the test? Ah...I don't know what mine is it's like a sudden pain, not constant but sudden, like muscles in my back and upper stomach tightening, it's hard to explain but it hurts like hell. It only lasts a few seconds. It's been doing this for like 2 days now. Rolaids help for a short time.

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Feb 1 2007, 5:08 PM)

Yeah, I get you. But if the baby doesn't exist why would he ask you to kill it? What would be the purpose? What's the test? Ah...I don't know what mine is it's like a sudden pain, not constant but sudden, like muscles in my back and upper stomach tightening, it's hard to explain but it hurts like hell. It only lasts a few seconds. It's been doing this for like 2 days now. Rolaids help for a short time.

It is to test your faithfulness toward God to see if you really trust him. Below is a passge out of the bible. Notice the bolded verse. In him saying WE will come back, he obviously had faith that God was going to rise him from the dead or that he would stop him. That is the point. And yeah, I know what mine is. It's that time of the month again.

1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

Yeah, I think I've read that story before

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Feb 1 2007, 6:26 PM)

Yeah, I think I've read that story before

Yeah. There's others one too that are similar.

Yeah, but my other question is. Well, I've heard other Christians say that God knows all about us because he created us, if he does then why would he have to test our Faith if he knows our hearts already?

After reading the dialogue between "Heath21" and "obscure enigma" I am so confused again by the Christian religion!

But Heath21, you do bring up great questions! :]

Haha thanks for the comment. BTW, I am not a Christian just in case you didn't know. I'm Agnostic.

^ Me, too :)

You Christians really need to learn to get your stories straight.
God is either omniscient or not. He either knows everything and requires no tests, or he is does not know everything and most entertain tests with his children.

God is either all just, or he isn't. Either he weights crimes and good deeds accordingly and matches them to appropriate rewards and punishments, or he doesn't. You can't have it both ways. A just God can't rate different sins as equal.

Further, you have a lot of speculation. But, you have yet to substantiate anything you have said at all. God telling you anything, let alone to kill a child, is a far cry. Hell, God could easily not even exist. But, to face the reality of the biblical representation of the Christian god: WHy would you hold different moral standards to your fellow man in comparison to your king or your god? What would permit a God to kill millions while a human being could not? How does it make any sense that the law makers be inherently exempt from the laws? Further, and more disturbingly, how is it that a perfect, all-loving, omni-benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god chooses violence as a means to an end? Why would a god, who is supposed good and right in all aspects and within all reason, not simply snap his fingers or cure a problem peacefully? Why must god execute his own children by the millions? And, even if such a god exists, why should we worship him?

QUOTE(Heath21 @ Feb 1 2007, 7:01 PM)

Yeah, but my other question is. Well, I've heard other Christians say that God knows all about us because he created us, if he does then why would he have to test our Faith if he knows our hearts already?

Mish is right, you do come up with great questions.
God gives you free-will. If he wanted, he could've made us all mindless zombies that bow down to him. But he lets us have choices & trusts us to make the right decisions.
Why are you so confused, Mish?

Cute. But, wholly fallacious.
Perfect divine foreknowledge and omniscience is mutually exclusive to free will. It's an incompatible property. If you want to argue the point, go to the right thread.

The Theological Problem of Free Will

Not to mention, you avoided the question.
Why would an all-knowing God acquire a test?

^ because once having left His side, humans are prone to corruption by the natural evil which exists to provide for the operation of free will (to choose between good and evil)? - devil's advocate suggestion; not necessarily a response I endorse.


King and God are not comparable ideas; in this day and age, king as a representative/vessel of God on earth is an obsolete idea.

As for the different moral standards between God and man - well, if you follow religion then God created man, automatically rendering man subservient to God. It would not then seem right to treat as equal the one who alone had the power to create you? (if you follow religion).

And one would not 'permit' God to kill millions; as a higher being, His choices/decisions/actions are not accountable to man since again, subservience.

And as for law makers being inherently exempt from those very laws of their creation, well, in any progressive (and by this, I mean Western; I will readily admit to thinking a great majority of the states in the other direction operate a dated legal system) country this is not the case. Quite the contrary - accountability is very high on the agenda (though may not necessarily be conducted in the most effective manner). Indeed, in many states, lawmakers are held to a higher degree of accountability precisely because they are lawmakers.

Well, if you look at the story of Jonah, God allowed the Ninevites one last chance to repent before He would act out against them.

Also, God isn't human. As humans we all follow rules. Even those who make the rules. But I know what you're saying. It really isn't logical for the creator of a law to break the laws himself.

What if God were to give man any number for every situation he was too encounter? That would eliminate the contradiction.

Also, dude. Are there any books you recommend? I was blown away with your Theological Problems of Free Will. I know you didn't just think of that crap all by yourself. You must have read some stuff.

B/c everyone has different interpretations of the Bible; the Bible is confusing simply because of the many different things it tells us.

I guess I'm not as much confused as having many questions. But I don't really care about my questions anymore because I don't need the answers, hehe. :)

Clearly, a perfect all-knowing and all-loving god could find better means to the same end. Further, we are just as prone to said evils today. Why not flood the earth again?



The problem with this is that no meaningful ethical system works from an authoritative and totalitarian position. Ethics and moral actions are not derived from obedience and subservience. Further, there is nothing which suggests that an immoral act committed by one party is inherently moral given it is committed by a higher authoritative party, even if that party happens to be the highest of all authoritative parties. Either morality is absolute or it isn't. Can't have it both ways.

We can say God is above man, but that's an excuse, not an explanation. How, exactly, is it that murder is justified in God but unjustified in man?




I'm not so sure that eliminates the contradiction. So long as god is omniscient, man can not make a free choice as he has no options.

Uhhmm, I thought of a lot of that myself, ergo the intentional emphasis in deductive and analytical positions. Further, the analogies and arguments I brought forth are of my own for the most part, however this is not to say very similar or near identical comparisons have been made, as I'm sure they have. The argument isn't very rare, but I certainly expanded on it freely.

But, if you want some good reading, I'll suggest a few books:
Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell.
Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith.
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.
Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche.
An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding by David Hume.

For the most solid and less poetic of arguments, I would suggest Smith's work.

I was actually thinking the exact same thing before I read your answer lol.

Why not indeed? However, if God flooded the earth every time enough people were 'corrupted'/failed His 'tests', He wouldn't really be leading by example. That's essentially saying, when in doubt run/start from scratch. Again, argument for argument's sake.

But I'm not talking about any system operating from an authoritative/totalitarian basis. I was referring to subservience in terms of man's relationship with God. As far as lawmakers and politics go, I, to an extent, am a follower of social contract theory - that we give up certain rights to receive protections and in due course, subject ourselves to governance. I agree that ethics and morals are indeed not derived of obedience of subservience - there is no positive correlation for this relationship. Neither did I necessarily say the commitment of an act regarded as immorally wrong by one party, could be inherently moral when committed by the highest party such as God. I am simply saying that for those who worship such figures as God, there is no questioning of the moral nature of the act, whether it be right or wrong by our code, because He is superior.

The analogy wouldn't really work nowadays, but it's similar to not really being able to question the authority of one's parents. I'm sure they are guilty of numerous acts which are contrary to the child's moral code of conduct, but the child is in no position to question that because the relationship which exists between them is not one which, for example, resembles social contract. In other words, the simple parent-child relationship is one in which the parent will always outrank the child because the child will always lack authority upon which the claims/arguments could be made.

In this way, no amount of theorising can change the fact that those who follow God, believe him to occupy a pedestal of the variety which grants him freedom from human judgement. So it's not that there are multiple moral codes; it is simply that the ability to measure God's acts by the moral worth of our own, is unavailable. Ergo I am saying, murder is not justified by God; followers of God are simply not permitted an option to doubt it.

QUOTE(Claudel @ Feb 1 2007, 3:15 PM)

Why do you kids always have to take HIM responsible for your own mistakes? for your own choices, good or bad, its up to you, you are the one and only responsible, stop finding others guilty of what you do, you are the black sheep not them.

I'm guessing "him" is God. If you're saying that Christians blame their sins on God and make God the guilty person, that is not how Christianity works. We are to accept the consequences of our actions/choices, but we must also repent for sinning against God and learn from those mistakes. God sent his son to die for us SO that we could repent for our sins, and not die because of it. I do think that some Christians take repetance for granted. They say "forgive me this and that. thank you, amen." and have no intention on changing their behavior whatsoever. That is not the way it works, but who am I to say, "You are a bad Christian for doing that!" I am not one to judge. I just don't approve of it.

QUOTE

This question is for everyone who claims that these are sins..if God didn't want us to do these things, why did he create them? I know your probably going to say free-will. But why would he even give us free will if these things are so bad..?

God has the power to create a perfect society, but that was not his intention. He could create a society that worships him, free of sin, and are just perfect in every single aspect, but he loved us so much that he gave us free will. He wanted us to come to him, not make us come to him by force. But in turn, free will also leads to "these things [that] are so bad", as you mentioned. We, humans, chose some of these bad things from our free will. So I once heard of this analogy by a fellow small group leader: You love someone. Would you rather have him/her be with you by free will or force him/her to be with you? Forcing him/her may lead into an unhappy relationship, one that is not desired. Free will, on the other hand, gives the person a choice - one that will lead to a healthy, desired relationship.