Please, PLEASE tell me you're kidding. You think the Bible's actually a reliable source for "facts" and "proof"? HAHAHA, okay. Wow.

Wow. Just tell me you're kidding. Otherwise, I might come back and explain.

^ I agree. People try to throw bible verses and other crap out at non believers, but they have no way to back up the whole thing.

Spirited Away,

I hope I haven't broken any rules of on-line debate here by editing a previous post in order to address your additions. Unfortunately, the blog has gone onto a new page so you'll have to go back to page 3 for the Dec 11 2006, 6:55 PM post for the edits.

Sorry for the inconvenience and for the long delay.

Angelina Taylor,

As strongly as you clearly do not believe, I very strongly believe that "the Bible's actually a reliable source for 'facts' and 'proof'".

Acid Bath Slayer has been kind enough to point out some links to discuss Creation vs. the theory of evolution (since this is quote you included).

I look forward to getting to discuss this with you on that blog...

Seriously? You're actually serious?

The bible was a work, written thousands of years ago by men and women who thought the earth was flat, and for whom a wheelbarrow for instance would've been a great example of emerging technology. To rely on such documents for "evidence and facts", as well as our worldview, is simply ridiculous.

There's a distinction which you fail to note. Belief is not knowledge. Facts don't go hand in hand with belief. Proof doesn't either. So your argument fails.

The bible is a source of belief, and facts don't emerge from belief. I mean, come on. EVERY religion preaches "truth" of propositions for which no evidence is even attainable.

How do you know which religion is true? You can't. That's a tiny problem with using the bible as a valid, historical source, isn't it?

With a big smile, yes.

I used to have the same attitude as you, though.

Funny that this same "flat Earth" discussion is going on on another blog here.

Question for you: Where did you get your information that women wrote the Bible ? None of the Books of the Bible were written by women. None.

Just to round out your description of the Bible, please remember that not only was it written thousands of years ago but it was also written over a period of thousands of years (from about 1500-1900 B.C to prior to 70 A.D). It was also written by 40 different authors. Those authors ranged from royalty to rags -- from kings to tent makers. Further, it is not a single book. It's a compilation of 66 Books. Finally, the Bible is the ONLY Book to have exact prophecy fulfilled. Can you describe to me exactly what's going to happen next year ? How about next week ? How about tomorrow ? Of course not. Yet the Bible has prophecy written hundreds to thousands of years before the exact fulfillment. God says that He gives prophecy to show that only He could have written it since He's outside of time. He is the God who was, is, and always will be. He has no beginning and He has no end.

What a funny thing to say !! Do you think that because we have computers today (and modern technology, in general) that we're so far advanced ?

Did you know that the Great Pyramid could NEVER be rebuilt today ? Yet, somehow, those guys from way-back-when did something that couldn't be reproduced today. Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that there were springs at the bottom of the sea ? Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that the Earth was held up by nothing -- somehow ? This was written WAY before modern technology made it down to the bottom of the sea to have this verified and before modern technology admitted that the Earth suspended in space.

Recognize that it's only ridiculous because you don't agree. My evidence is proven through fulfilled prophecy. My facts are shown through Biblical account as well as secular observation. My worldview is based on understanding that those prophecies that haven't been fulfilled are going to be fulfilled since He has shown Himself to be truthful and faithful in all things.

So, based on your personal beliefs, you BELIEVE my "argument" fails ?

My belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God gives me knowledge -- prior knowledge. I take the Word of God as hard fact and after the event occurs, my proof is in the fact that it happened as God said it would.

If we were having this discussion in 1947, I would tell you that the nation of Israel would be reborn on a single day. Further, with study of the Book of Daniel, I would tell you that that day would be May 15, 1948. In 1947, you'd tell me that I have no facts to back that up (and based on your statement above, you'd say that my "argument" fails) -- esp. since there'd been no Israel for almost 2000 years. Further, you'd tell me that my belief gives me no knowledge of what's going to happen. And, as of May 14, 1948, I would have no physical proof other than the Holy Scriptures to back up my belief that He is faithful to His promises. Still, as of May 16, 1948, I could come back to you and tell you that my belief prior to the facts act as proof of the event as well as further proof substantiating the document that I believe in.

You're right -- facts don't emerge from belief. There's no way you can believe something to make it true. If anyone does that, it's called "self-denial". But, if your belief is based on truth, it is reality.

Take, for example, the belief that everyone gets to Heaven. How impotent would God be to allow everyone to get there ? He would not be the God described in the Bible who judges in righteousness and truth. He would not be just nor would He be good. But the One, True God of the Bible is just, good, and judges in His Righteousness and Truth. So, just because there are people out there who truly believe that they get to Heaven based on their good works doesn't make it true.

Sounds like your talking about the difference between faith and blind faith.

Unfortunately, you're right. Every religion does put exclusivity on their flavor of beliefs. That doesn't mean, though, that they're all wrong.

There is one and only one faith that looks to the Book that has countless prophecies to know that it was not written by men. Other "holy books" either never claim to be written by God or they claim it and cannot back it up. It is that Book alone that shows itself true. It is that Book alone that you should be studying to find the only way to ensure you're right with Him.

Again, the Book that proves itself to do that which only God can do should get your vote. No other Book tells what's going to happen before it happens. Don't you see that only One outside of time can do this ?

*********************

Please be honest with yourself and realize that, even though you may be young, you have no guarantee of tomorrow. Just like we agreed above, your beliefs do not make something true. In the same way, NOT believing something doesn't make it NOT true. Just because you DON'T believe you'll stand in front of God and be judged, doesn't make it NOT true.

Your eternal destination hangs in the balance. You've broken the Law of God as we all have and you deserve His Righteous Judgment and His Righteous sentence of "guilty" as well do. Yet, in His Mercy and His Grace, He sent Jesus to suffer in your place and to pay the fine for your sentence of guilt. Please don't be so prideful that you reject a payment that you could never make for yourself. Again, your eternal destination hangs in the balance.

could you give me the verse that says this? I can't seem to find it.

You say the bible must be accurate because prophecies have been fulfilled within it. The bible is so vague that you can hardly call anything within it prophecy.

name one specific prophecy (and cite the verse) that has been fulfilled. something specific.

I could say right now "in one thousand years, a boy will be born with blue eyes."
I just made a prophecy! GO ME! I bet that on december 29, 3006, somewhere in the world, a baby boy will be born with blue eyes.
A real prophecy would be something like "on december 29, 3006 at 2:23 PM a baby will be born with blue eyes. His name will be Aaron, and his mother's name will be Margaret. His father will be unknown, but the mother narrows it down to either Cortland or Coleton. on january 13, 3013, they find out that it was neither Cortland nor Coleton. It was the random guy she hooked up with when she was drunk, whose name happens to be Jeremy. Now Jeremy was an electrician who liked to......"

but the bible doesnt have that kind of prediction. Everything is vague.

The bible is a great story, but when you try to pass it off as fact, its as ridiculous as someone reading Harry Potter, and then living their life in fear of Voldemort coming to get them.



This isnt in any way related to the debate, and it can almost be considered a personal attack, in addition to being complete and total bullshit.


we're getting off topic in this debate. The point of it isn't to give you an opportunity to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat, its to discuss whether or not its right to do so.

In case you haven't figured it out, I hate evangelists.

I dont care what your religion is, so long as you dont try to force it on other people. I think that's completely out of line and unnecissary.

From the viewpoint of a Satanist, evangalism is pointless. We have no interest in "saving souls" or any bullshit like that. If someone wants to be an idiot and waste their life, let them.

[quote name='ScottD' date='Dec 29 2006, 3:47 PM' post='2391190']
Question for you: Where did you get your information that women wrote the Bible ? None of the Books of the Bible were written by women. None. [/quote]

Counter question for you - How do you know who wrote the bible? As far as I'm informed, I'm pretty certain Hebrews wrote it. Don't you think it's kind of discriminating to say only men wrote the bible when you have no evidence?

[quote] Finally, the Bible is the ONLY Book to have exact prophecy fulfilled. Can you describe to me exactly what's going to happen next year ? How about next week ? How about tomorrow ? Of course not. Yet the Bible has prophecy written hundreds to thousands of years before the exact fulfillment. God says that He gives prophecy to show that only He could have written it since He's outside of time. He is the God who was, is, and always will be. He has no beginning and He has no end. [/quote]

Pardon my infinite ignorance, but could you explain what prophecy exactly you're talking about? And, furthermore, if what you're saying is indeed true, does that prove the existance of god? Why does it prove it?

Faith is nothing more than a willingness to await the "evidence". The Day of Judgement and all that. "Believe now and you will discover you were right". Right?

There is certainly no doubt that we want justification for our beliefs and we believe them because we think such justification is in the offing.

[quote]Did you know that the Great Pyramid could NEVER be rebuilt today ? Yet, somehow, those guys from way-back-when did something that couldn't be reproduced today. Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that there were springs at the bottom of the sea ? Do you realize that men who studied the Bible believed that the Earth was held up by nothing -- somehow ? This was written WAY before modern technology made it down to the bottom of the sea to have this verified and before modern technology admitted that the Earth suspended in space. [/quote]

What does that have to do with god and the accuracy of the bible?

[quote]Recognize that it's only ridiculous because you don't agree. My evidence is proven through fulfilled prophecy. My facts are shown through Biblical account as well as secular observation. My worldview is based on understanding that those prophecies that haven't been fulfilled are going to be fulfilled since He has shown Himself to be truthful and faithful in all things. [/quote]

Again, I'm waiting to see what prophecy you're talking about. What facts precisely? Do you know how many flaws the bible contains? Furthermore, do you know how many stories from the bible are found in other "holy" texts?

[quote]So, based on your personal beliefs, you BELIEVE my "argument" fails ? [/quote]

Based on basic logic, yes.

[quote]My belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God gives me knowledge -- prior knowledge. I take the Word of God as hard fact and after the event occurs, my proof is in the fact that it happened as God said it would. [/quote]

The "word of god"... how do you know it's the word of god? If you have no way to prove it, why should I have any reason to believe it?

If me and ten of my friends told you that we had a spiritual experience and actually saw Jesus in his flesh standing in my room, would you believe me? How can you base your entire life views on a book, containing such incredible writings as all the miracles it describes? I'm interested.

[quote]If we were having this discussion in 1947, I would tell you that the nation of Israel would be reborn on a single day. Further, with study of the Book of Daniel, I would tell you that that day would be May 15, 1948. In 1947, you'd tell me that I have no facts to back that up (and based on your statement above, you'd say that my "argument" fails) -- esp. since there'd been no Israel for almost 2000 years. Further, you'd tell me that my belief gives me no knowledge of what's going to happen. And, as of May 14, 1948, I would have no physical proof other than the Holy Scriptures to back up my belief that He is faithful to His promises. Still, as of May 16, 1948, I could come back to you and tell you that my belief prior to the facts act as proof of the event as well as further proof substantiating the document that I believe in. [/quote]


Can you quote the book of daniel? I'm intrigued to read it. I tried searching on the net, but nothing came up.

[quote]You're right -- facts don't emerge from belief. There's no way you can believe something to make it true. If anyone does that, it's called "self-denial". But, if your belief is based on truth, it is reality. [/quote]

Again, how do you know that it is certainly the truth?

[quote]Take, for example, the belief that everyone gets to Heaven. How impotent would God be to allow everyone to get there ? He would not be the God described in the Bible who judges in righteousness and truth. He would not be just nor would He be good. But the One, True God of the Bible is just, good, and judges in His Righteousness and Truth. So, just because there are people out there who truly believe that they get to Heaven based on their good works doesn't make it true. [/quote]

How is this relevant? My point was that facts don't emerge from pure belief. I may "believe" that I'm the greatest pianist alive, but would that make it a fact? As much as I'd love it to do so, no.

[quote]Unfortunately, you're right. Every religion does put exclusivity on their flavor of beliefs. That doesn't mean, though, that they're all wrong. [/quote]

Maybe. But they cannot all be right. And because of that, you can't ever really know which one is the "right" one.

By the way. Have you read the Koran?

[quote]There is one and only one faith that looks to the Book that has countless prophecies to know that it was not written by men. Other "holy books" either never claim to be written by God or they claim it and cannot back it up. It is that Book alone that shows itself true. It is that Book alone that you should be studying to find the only way to ensure you're right with Him. [/quote]

Really? Earlier you stated that the bible was written by 40 different men, kings, and whatnot. Now you say that book was not written by men. I might be way out of line here, but which one is it?

[quote]Again, the Book that proves itself to do that which only God can do should get your vote. No other Book tells what's going to happen before it happens. Don't you see that only One outside of time can do this ? [/quote]

Again, I'd like to hear about those prophecies. And unless you have such knowledge about other religions and other sacred texts, I don't think you should make that statement.

P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this.

I apologize for my long response here. ursedonah & Angelina Taylor bring up some really good points and I'm doing my best to keep up with all these...

[quote]From ursedonah:
could you give me the verse that says this? I can't seem to find it.
[/quote]
My bad. Daniel is the prophecy of the coming of Jesus. The rebirth of Israel is mainly given in Ezekiel, but please feel free to review the following:
http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html & http://home.flash.net/~venzor/chapter1israel.htm. Please note that I don't know the guys that made these websites, but they did what looks like a good job on explaining this.
[quote]From ursedonah:
You say the bible must be accurate because prophecies have been fulfilled within it. The bible is so vague that you can hardly call anything within it prophecy.

name one specific prophecy (and cite the verse) that has been fulfilled. something specific.[/quote]
Below are just a small handful of prophecies in the Bible concerning the coming of Messiah. After reading them, I'd honestly be very interested to know how you consider them vague. For others with which I've had the pleasure of discussing issues, I've tried not to quote verses mainly because I know that most here do not believe in the integrity of the Bible. I'm doing it now because of ursedonah's specific request.

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Isaiah 49:6
"Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
Micah 5:2
"'But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.'"
Zechariah 9:9
""Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey."
Zehcariah 11:12
"Then I said to them, 'If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.' So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."
Zechariah 11:13
" And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' -that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter."
Isaiah 53:3
"He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him."
Isaiah 53:9
"And they made His grave with the wicked-But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth."
Isaiah 50:6
"I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting."
Psalm 22 (look at the whole chapter, but for this we'll look specifically at verse 18)
"They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots."

I have no idea if you know how to calculate probabilities. For anyone who doesn't, it goes like this: The chance of flipping a coin once and getting a heads up is 1 out of 2 (or one-half). The chance of flipping a coin two times in a row and getting two heads up is 1 out of 2 (for the first flip) and 1 out of 2 (for the second flip). These two probabilities are multiplied (one-half times one-half) to come to 1 out of 4 (one-quarter).

Consider the probability of one person satisfying just the prophecies above !! A child born who would be called "Mighty God" ? A Jew who would be considered a "light to the Gentiles" ? One "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting" who was born in Bethlehem ? A King who would enter Jerusalem on a specific day riding a donkey (this is the Daniel reference that I confused with Ezekiel above) ? A man who was sold for 30 pieces of silver and that money thrown to the floor of the Temple and then used to buy a plot of land ? A man who's despised and rejected ? A man who was killed with the guilty but was laid in a rich man's tomb ? A man who went through the torture of getting struck and having his beard pulled out ? A man whose clothing was taken, split, and others gambled over them ?

The chance of one person satisfying just the above prophecies is enormous !! In fact, the chance of one person fulfilling less than the above has been conservatively estimated as 1 * 10^17. That's 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 !! That estimate describes (approximately) the state of Texas covered in 2 feet of quarters. One of those quarters has a mark on it. You reach into this mass of quarters and pick out the correct quarter. That's 1 in 10^17.

And there are many, many more prophecies.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I could say right now "in one thousand years, a boy will be born with blue eyes."
I just made a prophecy! GO ME! I bet that on december 29, 3006, somewhere in the world, a baby boy will be born with blue eyes.
A real prophecy would be something like "on december 29, 3006 at 2:23 PM a baby will be born with blue eyes. His name will be Aaron, and his mother's name will be Margaret. His father will be unknown, but the mother narrows it down to either Cortland or Coleton. on january 13, 3013, they find out that it was neither Cortland nor Coleton. It was the random guy she hooked up with when she was drunk, whose name happens to be Jeremy. Now Jeremy was an electrician who liked to......"[/quote]
Your example actually does a good job of supporting my statements above. All the qualifications that you give in your example are the requirements of your baby born in 3006. The Bible's done exactly that in letting us know who the Messiah of Israel would be. His Hebrew name is Y'shua.
[quote]From ursedonah:
but the bible doesnt have that kind of prediction. Everything is vague.[/quote]
Again, please tell me how the above verses are vague.
[quote]From ursedonah:
This isnt in any way related to the debate, and it can almost be considered a personal attack, in addition to being complete and total --.

we're getting off topic in this debate. The point of it isn't to give you an opportunity to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat, its to discuss whether or not its right to do so

In case you haven't figured it out, I hate evangelists. [/quote]
Of course, this is your personal opinion, so feel free to stand firm in it. This is a blog on evangelism, so as I discuss my thoughts on evangelism and how it's done out of a concern for the eternal welfare of others, I make sure to share the fact that we're all determined a day to be judged by the very God you reject. Just as you can stand firm on your personal opinion on all subjects, you have the choice to stand firm on this rejection.

Your opinion is that we're "off topic". Again, the topic is evangelism. If you truly feel that my words are off topic, then you might do best to not address them since it simply brings more attention (and discussion).

As for your hate of evangelists, that's a shame. The Bible's very clear about the eternal destiny of those who reject His Sacrifice -- read Revelation 21:8.
[quote]From ursedonah:
I dont care what your religion is, so long as you dont try to force it on other people. I think that's completely out of line and unnecissary. [/quote]
I have to assume, then, that you don't "force" your beliefs on others, then. If that's true, which is also true ? You either (a) don't threaten others to accept your beliefs or (b) you don't believe so strongly in your "faith" that you think everyone needs to know about it.

In terms of your implication that I'm forcing what I believe on others, please explain how my words written remotely and distributed electronically and with no face-to-face encounter can "force" anything on anyone ? Honestly. My words can easily be skimmed over and disregarded. You can immediately tell where I stand in terms of my theology, my worldview, etc. You have the option to see my name listed and not even read anything I've written. I will not consider it rude for you to do that.
[quote]From ursedonah:
From the viewpoint of a Satanist, evangalism is pointless. We have no interest in "saving souls" or any -- like that. If someone wants to be an idiot and waste their life, let them.[/quote]
I'm actually very, very interested in the fact that you're a professed Satanist. Where do you get your information on the one you worship ? Do you read the Bible in order to learn more about him ? Seeing as Satan's "resume" is given so clearly in Scripture, I can't help but wonder if you see him as the prince of lies -- the great deceiver -- the accuser. What promises does the one you worship give to you for eternity ? How can you believe those promises knowing that he's described as a liar from the beginning ?

In terms of your lack of interest in "saving souls": What do you believe happens to your soul when your body takes its last breath ? Do you believe your soul is saved ?

Since you made the statement about someone wasting their life: What do your beliefs prescribe in order to NOT be an idiot and waste your life ?

I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan.

[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Counter question for you - How do you know who wrote the bible? As far as I'm informed, I'm pretty certain Hebrews wrote it. Don't you think it's kind of discriminating to say only men wrote the bible when you have no evidence? [/quote]
The Bible says who wrote it and you're exactly correct -- Jews wrote it (except for the Book of Luke -- a Gentile -- in the New Covenant). As far as whether or not it's discriminating that only men wrote the Bible: No, I don't.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Pardon my infinite ignorance, but could you explain what prophecy exactly you're talking about? And, furthermore, if what you're saying is indeed true, does that prove the existance of god? Why does it prove it? [/quote]
I hope that my previous response didn't offend you. Your choice of words "my infinite ignorance" sounds like I used poor judgment in the words I chose. If so, please forgive me. I am ignorant in many, many things and will be the first to admit it. There's no way I know as much as you do about playing the piano and if I were interested in learning, I would have to go someone I could trust whom I know has greater knowledge on the subject than I.

Please look above in my response to ursedonah for the prophecies (don't miss the fact that I got Daniel and Ezekiel mixed up). As for whether or not what I'm saying is true proving the existence of God, it most definitely does. If there's a Book that shows itself to have documented things that haven't happened yet, then it must've been written by One who knows exactly what's going to happen. There is no man that can do that, so this immediately implies that there's something greater than man. This could, though, be multiple gods. So, you gain a little trust for this document and read a little more. Trusting that this Book is not authored by man, you read it and see that it says in there that there's only One God. You find, further, that it says that throughout the Book. In fact, it says that anything else that is worshipped is a false god.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
What does that have to do with god and the accuracy of the bible?[/quote]
You had previously implied that the people back in Biblical times were a "backward people" in saying that the wheelbarrow was major technology (I'm paraphrasing, of course). I mentioned what I did about the Great Pyramid to say that they were advanced in things that we're not. Further, the other comments about science finally catching up to the teachings in the Bible shows that the Bible is accurate -- beyond what men know or believe.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'm waiting to see what prophecy you're talking about. What facts precisely? Do you know how many flaws the bible contains? Furthermore, do you know how many stories from the bible are found in other "holy" texts? [/quote]
Please see the above prophecies specifically answering ursedonah.

Please give me some flaws in the Bible that you're talking about. I'm very interested to see some.

Yes, there are many stories from the Bible that are found in other documents -- religious as well as secular. How does that mean that it's not true ?
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
The "word of god"... how do you know it's the word of god? If you have no way to prove it, why should I have any reason to believe it?[/quote]
Refer to the above discussion starting with "If there's a Book that shows itself"
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
If me and ten of my friends told you that we had a spiritual experience and actually saw Jesus in his flesh standing in my room, would you believe me?[/quote]
Actually, I wouldn't believe you because your experience would contradict the Word of God. It is not the Word that needs to change based on my experiences, opinions, or thoughts. It is me, my thoughts, my intentions, and my desires that need to change based on His Word. My desire is to know that I represent well the One who gave His life for me. In trying to represent Him, I want to make sure that others know what their eternal destiny is if they don't His Gift of Salvation -- in an attempt to show them their need for that Gift.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
How can you base your entire life views on a book, containing such incredible writings as all the miracles it describes? I'm interested.[/quote]
That Book (with incredible writing of the miracles He's performed) is the most precious thing I own since I know (not just believe) that it was authored by One outside of time. Have you ever heard what "BIBLE" stands for ? "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" -- this is clearly not based on any Hebrew or Greek translation, though...
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Can you quote the book of daniel? I'm intrigued to read it. I tried searching on the net, but nothing came up.[/quote]
Quote it ? I really wish I could. Here's a link to an on-line Bible if you're actually interested: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan001.html#top

Please do note, though, my mistake that I mentioned above: that I had mistaken Daniel for Ezekiel. You can get to the Book of Ezekiel from Blue Letter Bible's main page.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Maybe. But they cannot all be right. And because of that, you can't ever really know which one is the "right" one.

By the way. Have you read the Koran?[/quote]
Again, just because they're not all right, doesn't mean that one is not correct. Again, you base this conclusion on the "holy" documents they look to.

I have studied the Koran -- not as in-depth as the Bible, though. For me, once I find something that I know is a false document, I put it down.
[quote]From Angelina Taylor:
Really? Earlier you stated that the bible was written by 40 different men, kings, and whatnot. Now you say that book was not written by men. I might be way out of line here, but which one is it?[/quote]
You're not out of line at all. You actually point out something in my terminology that I've been trying to correct for the exact reason that you bring up. So, thank you for reinforcing this for me.

Who writes a hand-written letter -- the author or the pen ? The author uses the pen to put the message on paper. In the same way, God is the author and He used men to write down that which He prescribed. Again, there's no way that a man can author something that's exactly fulfilled in the future.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
Again, I'd like to hear about those prophecies. And unless you have such knowledge about other religions and other sacred texts, I don't think you should make that statement.
---
Again, there are a handful of prophecies above that I'd be interested to know if you see them as vague (I'd asked ursedonah, but I'd like to get your comments as well).

While in college and before trying to prove my wife wrong about her belief in Jesus, I studied all kinds of religions (Nation of Islam, Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hare Krishna-ism, etc.) Of course, since I grew up with Judaism I already knew about what it was like to be part of a religion that was steeped in empty tradition. So, having looked into the world of these other religions, I can say without question that true faith in the Messiah of Israel is unlike every other "religion". All other religions are "works-based" (the things I do earn my way into Heaven) as opposed to "faith-based" (only what God's done will get me to Heaven).
***
From Angelina Taylor:
P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this.
---
I'd very much like to see this. Please do expand...
***
From Obscure Enigma:
I think evangelism is fine, in a sence that you invite someone to church, missionaries, ect. but when it gets to the point where you are shoving your beiliefs down someone's t doesn't throat who already has different beiliefs, I do not agree. There is a certain point where it gets ridiculous.
---
I agree. If I were ever to see a handful of "Christians" holding down someone and making them eat pages from the Bible, I'd get them to stop immediately.

Consider this: What does it mean to shove your beliefs down someone's throat ? Are you talking about the modern-day "inquisition" of "Accept my religion or die ?" Don't get Islam & medieval Catholicism confused with Christianity.

How would you get a sleeping family out of their burning home ? Would you quietly knock on their door and hope not to abruptly disturb any good dreams they may be experiencing ? Or would you bang on that door to get them up and out since you're honestly concerned for their safety ?

How would you get the guy sitting next to you on a plane to put on his parachute on as the flight's going down ? Would you tell him that the parachute will make the movie he's watching more enjoyable ? Or would you take off his headphones and tell him that everyone's about to jump out of an airplane at 25,000 feet and if he doesn't have a parachute on, he's going to experience the law of gravity and go splat ?

True evangelism is an expression of concern for others.

Where do you believe all those who aren't born again (John 3:3) are going to spend eternity ?

You mean Jesus? He was a historical figure rather than a religious one. I don't know if I mentioned this, but he was killed for crimes against the state.. not religious crimes. The church twisted all that.



And how do we know about these events? From the bible. Unless I'm wrong, it's probably the one source where you can read about them. See my point?



Please refer to my response earlier. How are those prophecies? First, they are too vague. And they don't prove anything really. Either that or I'm really thick-minded. Oh yeah, and I could not find the one where May 15th is mentioned.



How is science proving that the bible is accurate? Interestingly, archeologists have done research and come to quite a few conclusions. Here:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people - and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story - now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people's emergence are radically different from what that story tells."

If you would like to read more, this is the site:

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/jerques.htm

I would not doubt that, since I've studied about Israel Finkelstein for a while now.



Here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don...sistencies.html

There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.



If the bible is proposing itself as the "only truth", how could that be logical then?

I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.



I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.



No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.



Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.



My philosophy/religions professor has three of four Ph.Ds in theology, and he's a prof at a major university here. He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong. It's flawed, as are all other religions.


"P.S. What I wanted to get to is - you can believe what you want, and you're free to do so. But taking the bible literally and believing everything it says, taking its stories literally is absurd. It's not rational. If you'd like, I could expand on this."
---

I said that earlier. I'd like to quote a book I'm reading (The End of Faith by Sam Harris - an excellent read, and I suggest you pick it up. You won't regret it).

"[...] Evidence . . . is the only thing that suggest that a given belief is really about the world in the first place. We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious"; otherwise, they are likely to be called "mad," "psychotic," or "delusional." Most people of faith are perfectly sane, of course, even those who commit atrocities on account of their beliefs. But what is the difference between a man who believes that God will reward him with seventy-two virgins if he kills a score of Jewish teenagers, and one who believes that creatures from Alpha Centauri are beaming him messages of world peace through his hair dryer? There is a difference, to be sure, but it is not one that places religious faith in a flattering light.

It takes certain kind of person to believe what no one else believes. To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence . . . is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind. Clearly, there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are. This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down to us as though they were primordial truths. This leaves billions of us to believe what no sane person could believe on his own....

The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.... We are, even know, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who would have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?"

I still can't seem to find that verse that says it would be May 15, 1948.

As for those verses...
First, everyone had access to these "prophecies". Anyone could study them and create a story from them.
Second, you have no way of proving that ANY of them came true. Sure, the bible says it. But there is no other source that proves any of that.

And you delude yourself to think that just because someone predicted something, that means they were inspired by god.
What about when meteorologists predict a hurricane? Or when someone predicts when the next solar eclipse will be? Or when they predict how long it will be until the planets align a certain way? Are all those predictions inspired by god?
And throughout history, there have been oracles and soothesayers who have predicted things very accurately. Many, if not all, of these were pagans.

The bible isnt the only source of prophecies and predictions.



once again, trying to shove your own beliefs down someone else's throat.



No, I dont threaten others in an attempt for them to accept my beliefs. Really, I could care less. Ignorance annoys me. Therefore, if someone presents him/herself as someone who would be open to what I have to say, I will explain things to them.
I dont, however, threaten anyone or really expect them to accept my beliefs.



By threatening someone in the way you did, you are trying to shove your beliefs down their throat.
And dont even bother trying to argue that you weren't threatening. Christians love to threaten people. "You believe what I believe or you're going to burn for the rest of eternity"

This is a debate; therefore, one is expected to read everything their opponent says so that they can thoroughly refute it.



Obviously, you know absolutely nothing about Satanism.
I'd be happy to tell you anything you want to know about my religion, but first we have to clear one thing up.
Satanism is not the worship of Satan
In fact, I dont believe in god or satan. at least not in the way Christians do.
In Satanism, Satan is a metaphor and often the subject of satire.
Read the nine satanic statements if you would like to know what we believe about "satan"


I don't believe in life after death in any form.



Do whatever gives you pleasure, experience everything you can, because you only get one chance. Live with no regrets. Dont live your life in fear (including the fear of god)
But there are a few guidelines in that.
look up the nine satanic sins and the eleven satanic rules of the earth for more information on said guidlines

but if you want to know more about satanism, feel free to PM me, or go to the Satanism Debate

Quick question on replying: Are there a limited number of quote delimiters that go into a post ?


First, I don't understand how you could say that Jesus was an historic vs. religious figure. Christianity is a religion that, at its core, is based on The Christ -- Jesus. He's only a historic figure to those who are not Christians and choose not to follow His teachings.

As for Him being killed for non-religious crimes, please point me to where you got that piece of information. John 5:18 and Luke 22:70-71 very clearly state the reason why the Jews sought to have Him killed. His own teachings describe what he brought to the nation of Israel as being the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and as something sufficient to tear apart Judaism.

Actually, we have secular documents (such as the writings of Josephus -- even if you do remove the disputed portions regarding Jesus) that corroborate the Bible.

I've got to tell you that I'm very surprised that you'd say that those handful of prophecies on Messiah are vague. Honestly, how is it vague that a child would be born in Bethlehem ? How is it vague that One would be given as a light to the Gentiles ? How is it vague that there would be One that made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death ? How is it vague that they plucked His beard out and that His clothing were gambled for ? How are they vague ?

How about this for a vague prophecy ? It isn't prophetic of Messiah, but it is prophetic nonetheless. Read Isaiah 44:28 & Isaiah 45:1. Then look at 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 & Ezra 1:1-2. Finally, look at the archaeology and history:
http://lordibelieve.org/arch/arch3/sld004.htm
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/r...blical_prophecy

As I mentioned above, for the May 15th prophecy, please refer to http://www.pytlik.com/observe/deliverus/timetv-03.html.

I'm not surprised that there's someone in Finkelstein's position that doesn't believe the Hebrew Scriptures. When I was in Israel, I met tons of Jews who don't even believe in God at all. How they could live in Israel and be so blind is beyond me. Never before has a separate people had no homeland for 2000 years and kept their culture and "separate-ness". Never before has a language been resurrected after over 1000 years as Hebrew has.

Please realize that the same evidence that Finkelstein reviews is seen by both sides and all that each expert says is prefaced with "I believe...", "I don't believe...", or "...as far as I can judge." Refer to http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week723/cover.html

I think one thing that is really funny about what Finkelstein has said ("evidence indicates that this part of Genesis was a national epic created in the seventh century BCE which successfully joined many regional legendary ancestors into one unified tradition"). Consider that if this is true, then Genesis was written during the time of Isaiah the Prophet. Why would there be a nation of Israel about to be brought captive to Babylon (which is definitely a point in secular fact as well as history) if the very Book that defines who a Jew is was just recently written ?

***
From Angelina Taylor:
There are so many of them that you probably won't have time to read through them all. It's very intriguing though.
---
I read through the first dozen or so and see why you say that I won't have time to read through them all. Do you have your top three or so favorites from this list ? As opposed to describing the Believer's side starting with #1, I was hoping to look at the ones that mean the most to you in order to correct what Mr. Morgan has compiled on this page.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
I've read both the koran and the bible (although I read the bible a good while ago, so I've started reading it again). The beginnings are oh so similar - Adam learning the names of all animals, Adam and his wife being in "heaven" (eden) and being forbidden to eat from a particular tree but then, of course, being sent out because they didn't obey that order; people being rescued from a Pharaoh, a see being divided in two... There are more, but I can't remember right now. Thought it'd be interesting.
---
Realize just a few of the main differences between the Quran and the Bible:
Quran: Written in less than one man's lifetime based on the words given by one man in one language
Bible: Written over a period of over 1600 years by 40 authors (ranging from priests to kings to prophets to tent makers) in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek

Quran: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael -- Ishmael is the son of promise
Bible: Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Isaac -- Isaac is the son of promise

Quran: The Jews are to be destroyed
Bible: The Jews are the chosen people and called "the apple of His eye" (Zechariah 2:8)

Quran: Teaches that your works will determine whether or not you make it to the Muslim Heaven (but only one way to know if you'll make it or not)
Bible: Teaches that your works are as filthy rags to the Righteous and Holy God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Quran: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to the Muslim Heaven -- die in jihad
Bible: The only way to know for sure that you can make it to Heaven -- faith

Quran: The god of Islam can change his mind any time he wants. This even includes those who make it to the Muslim Heaven.
Bible: The God of Israel is unchanging. His unconditional promises can never be broken.

Since they can't both be right, it must be that only one of them or neither of them are.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
I feel bad for people who still believe Jesus died for their sins. But, you know - sanity comes in numbers.
---
The feeling is mutual. Those who truly believe Messiah died for their sins truly grieve for those who don't believe. If you were to receive the cure to a deadly disease and then be handed a gym bag full of of the cure, would you simply take that gym bag and store it away ? I hope not !! Instead, wouldn't you rush to give it to others since you've just been cured ? Even if someone you tried to hand it to said that they didn't have any disease, wouldn't you look at them and show them the evident signs that they're diseased and they NEED TO APPROPRIATE this cure ??

This is the purpose of God's Law. As nice a person as you may be, you've lied at some point in your life. You've taken something at some point in your life -- it doesn't matter the value. You, as we all are, are guilty and justice will be served. If you have no way to pay the price for your freedom, your eternal destiny is guaranteed.

I feel bad for people who still don't believe Jesus dies for their sins. But, you know -- truth doesn't necessarily come in numbers.

***
From Angelina Taylor:
No, you don't "know". You believe. Religion is based on faith, not facts. Hence it's a religion. Pure, blind faith. That's why it's not good enough for me.
---
Consider a little boy who is looking at a heater. His father warns him that it's hot. The child say, "OK. I believe it's hot." At that point, he has an intellectual belief that the heater is hot. When his dad leaves the room, he says, "I wonder if it really is hot ?" He then reaches out his hand and grabs the heater bar with his fingers. The second his flesh burns he stops believing the heater is hot. He now knows it's hot ! He has moved out of the realm of "gaith" and into the realm of "experience".

Two minutes later, a heater expert come in and says, "Son, I have a degree in the study of heat, heat exchange, and heaters. That heater is definitely not hot. I can prove it to you." That child would probably say, "Mr. Expert, I don't care how many degrees you have. I know that that heater is hot -- I touched it !! I'm not in the realm of belief, I'm in the realm of experience. The door's that way. Goodbye."
***
From Angelina Taylor:
Yeah, I don't buy this. I can't base my entire life beliefs on something like that. The prophecies which you claim prove the bible right are not good enough. I didn't find anything particularly intriguing about them.
---
I understand. I couldn't either when I looked at the Bible as an old book written by a bunch of guys who died a long time ago.

So instead of basing your entire life's beliefs on something like the Bible, you're choosing to base your entire life's beliefs on what makes sense to you based on what people have written. One Book claims to be from God. The others make no such claim and you choose them. Men are wrong every single day. Please don't make mistakes based on the teachings of men.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
He has mentioned that when it comes down to it, all religions are technically the same - they preach similar things, have very similar elements. If you think Christianity is unique, you're wrong.
---
The problem with your logic is that you're basing your opinion solely on the thoughts and opinions of the guy who said that -- no matter how many degrees he has. You've elevated his words because of the letters after his name and the fact that he stands in front of a number of people willing to listen. As anyone, he can be deceived.

As for your statement that there's nothing unique about Christianity: please admit that just because your teacher says it doesn't make it correct. I mentioned above a few differences between the Quran and the Bible, but realize that EVERY RELIGION other than Biblical Christianity looks to the works you perform as being the means by which to make it to Heaven. Biblical Christianity is defined by justification through faith alone. I say "Biblical Christianity" because there are many misled "Christian" sects that have gone back to a works-based theology that contradicts the plain reading of the Bible.

The works we do mean nothing to a Righteous and Holy God.
***
From Angelina Taylor:
The End of Faith by Sam Harris
---
I'm glad you enjoyed the book by Mr. Harris. Honestly, I will not read it knowing that it's merely the thoughts and opinions of a man when his writings do not line up with the Bible.

If you do actually like to read, my wife and I would gladly send you a book that you might like -- I'll pay for the book as well as the shipping. Simply PM me with where to send it if you're interested in a free book.




What's the largest book you've ever read ? Let's say you've read "War and Peace". Do you think you could create another story from portions of that book that not only made sense (in terms of chronology and theme) but also that didn't contradict the original ?? That's what your hypothesizing (if that's a word). You're saying that all the prophecies of Messiah were simply taken out (keeping the original context as well) in order to create a second Book (the New Testament). The New does not contradict the Old. The New actually exposes those things that were hidden in the Old.

Have you ever heard of Bible Codes ? Please read up on them and see how there's no way the original Hebrew Scriptures were written by man. As a software professional, I can honestly say that there's no way to do what the Bible Codes do and they were penned by hand starting in about 1900 BC !!!

Please see my comment above (search for "Josephus")

First, let's compare apples with apples instead of reaching for straws. A meteorologist does not prophecy. He studies what's going on and makes an educated conclusion. The "prediction" of a solar eclipse fits into this same model. You're not addressing a statement made hundreds to thousands of years prior to the event with no indications identifying the event. They, in no way, compare.

As for the oracles and soothesayers you mention, I do agree that there have been those that have predicted things to happen and they've happened -- hit & miss. In today's world, they call them sports commentators. They're about as "dead on" as they were when they were called oracles and soothesayers. You're also right about most of them being pagans.

Of course you don't. You don't have anything to offer except a belief system that says your life will end and that's it.

I don't expect anyone to accept what I have to say. It is my responsibility, though, to let people know of something that they may not know. It is my responsibility to remind people that they will not live forever and that they can't guarantee that they'll have tomorrow.

Tell me, what year will you die ? What month ? What day of the week ? What day ? You can't tell -- no one can. I'm simply bringing something to the forefront of your thoughts because it's extremely important.

From what you've said about your beliefs, you should actually be thanking me. You said that you're belief is to live life to the fullest -- while you can. What I've done is remind you that today could be your last. It's your choice what you do with that knowledge -- go have some fun or get right with God.

That's exactly why I told you that I knew nothing about it. That's why I said, "I'm truly interested in your answers since I've never had the opportunity to speak to someone who's been honest enough to claim to follow Satan." and asked you questions about it.

Thanks for the references and for sharing some of what you believe.

I will just say one thing and I'll rest my case because (no offence) you're actually ridiculous in my eyes. Except for those "prophecies" (which for me are just not good enough), you have nothing else to back up Christianity. The bible is not a reliable source, especially since most of it is plagiarized from many ancient texts (Egyptian/Mesopotamian). Christianity is flawed. I do not understand why people take it literally, when, frankly, it does not make sense.

QUOTE

Please realize that the same evidence that Finkelstein reviews is seen by both sides and all that each expert says is prefaced with "I believe...", "I don't believe...", or "...as far as I can judge

So do evangelists. "I believe". Right? That's what faith is.

You even refuse to read "The End of Faith". I bet when you read my response you didn't even know what it was about. Mr. Harris presents his arguments with extensive back-up and over 60 pages of JUST footnotes, with many, many explanations. If that's not good enough for you.. sorry. There are many books you should consider. Especially "A letter to a christian nation" by the same author. But, I'm not expecting you to read that either. My friend refused to read it because it's "too dangerous" to her faith.

Come on. Most people know that taking biblical stories literally and treating them as the "word of god" (even though there are SO many similarities between religions) is deeply illogical.

Oh. And you say that the evidence of these prophecies are found in religious texts. That's not evidence.

Tell me what book you want me to read and I'll get it. I'm not fond of giving out my address to people online.

I'll try not to bother responding here anymore. No point. I don't understand how one can possibly be a fundamentalist.

P.S. Crucifiction in Rome meant that the person is killed for crimes against the state. If Jesus was really killed for religious crimes, they would've killed him with stones, as that was their custom. They did not.

Yes... fine.

And the last time you reached out and fingered God, and he said 'hey, stop stroking my robe! and by the way i wrote the Bible!' was... when?

ScottD, i don't have time to read through all your posts, so forgive me if you have already addressed this.

First, we must accept the following as fact, which i don't think you'll have a problem with:

• The bible was written by men. Even if it is the word of god, it was physically written by men.
• The bible was translated by men.
• A core concept of Christianity is having faith.
• Men are imperfect.

from these i believe we can draw the following conclusions:

• Christianity is based upon faith, not fact.
• The Bible may have some errors in it, since it was transcribed and translated by men, and men are imperfect and occasionally make errors.

therefore, from these, we can draw that, while i do reserve that it is possible that the bible is wholly correct, the bible could be wrong, and this must be taken into account.

that being said, this isn't the bible thread. It's the evangelism thread.

None taken. I appreciate the opportunity to have gotten to talk with you.

No offence as well, but I'll continue praying for you - that might not mean anything to you, though. I'm praying for the Lord to send someone else to talk with you since the words I've spoken have had no effect on your view of eternal truth and the eventuality of your time to stand in front of Him.

I understand completely.

http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merc...roduct_Code=104
or
http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merc...;Category_Code=

As a nation that was under occupation, Israel was not allowed to carry out the death penalty the way the Old Covenant prescribed. The Jewish leaders were bound to go to the Roman rule in order to act upon their desire to carry out sentence.


So, how do you determine which parts you believe is from God ? Is it just those portiosn of Scripture that make sense to you -- that you agree with ? What about 2 Timothy 3:16 ? That verse must be wrong, then.

Consider your own belief in Creation vs. the theory of evolution. If you believe that He created all things, how hard would it be for Him to preserve His Word -- especially since the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek are unchanging.

Excellent point. Thank you. This isn't the Creation vs. theory of evolution thread either, so please forgive me for raising that.

So, in the vein of evangelism, would you agree that it is out of a concern for others that people share their faith with friends and strangers ? Would you agree that it is out of a concern for the promises they see in the Bible for those who do not come to God in the way He prescribes ? Would you agree that it is out of a need to tell people of the judgment and wrath to come ?

Out of curiosity, do you believe what Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 14:6 ? Do you believe what is said in Revelation 21:8 ?

Intelligent Design vs. Evolution? HAHAHAHA, okay. I'll have fun with that. I've heard of the other book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists", so I'll enjoy that as well. My philosophy prof said it's bullshit, so.. I'm looking forward to it.

Please, don't pray for me. I really, really hate it when people say that to me. Don't waste your time - there's nobody in the clouds.

Take care!

Well, do you agree that an athiest such as myself may edit and create his own version of the bible, twisting the phrases?

and because we don't know which one is wrong, we must suspect it all, and cannot accept any of the bible as 100% true.

therefore, no, i wouldn't agree that evangalism is a good thing.

the things you never talk about with friends are religion and politics, and there's a reason for it.

we agree that there are multiple religions, and we agree that until we die, we cannot know for sure which one is correct (and don't say you know, i'm talking about humanity as a whole).

Therefore, until we know which one is correct we should abstain from attempting tp introduce religion to people.

You can believe in evangalism all you want, but i fyou try to convert me, i won't talk to you. It's simple as that.

I guess I should thank you for giving me a clear conscience. I will not pray for you, then. I will grieve, though.

You most definitely can. Why bother, though ? There are plenty of people who call themselves "Christians" who do basically the same thing. Instead of editing and creating their own versions, they simply take verses out of context, ignore other verses, and then twist them completely. Might as well not reinvent the wheel and just use some of their material.

No, not at all. The Bible is an integrated message. First, if you contort a verse, other verses will show that something's wrong. Second, we still have the original Hebrew and Greek that we can go back to in order to see if the translation/version is correct.

I can completely understand. If you don't believe in a thing called "absolute truth", then why would you ever believe someone coming to you and saying, "This is THE truth."

The truth is that one day, we'll all step off this Earth and into eternity. That's truth. Even Benjamin Franklin recognized that: "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." He was right. He died. Actually, he lived until the age of 84 in 1790. He's been dead for over 210 years -- a LOT longer than he was alive. This is reality. You'll be dead a LOT longer than you'll ever be alive. Please put serious thought into where you're going to spend eternity.

Actually, those are the things YOU, specifically, never talk about with friends. But, consider this: Your friend has a blindfold and headphones on such that they can neither see nor hear anything. They're walking straight toward a 150 foot cliff. Wouldn't you run as fast as you could to hold them back if not tackle them in order to save them from the fall to come ? In fact, if you don't do that, you're not really a friend at all -- are you ?

If you actually knew something was true, you'd do everything you could to try to inform people of the truth you know. On the other hand though, if your convictions are so weak about something, why bother sharing with people the fact that you really don't have a strong stance on something ?

Remember the old saying: "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

I agree completely. There are many, many religions. Unfortunately, after you die it's too late.

This is why a Biblical evangelist makes every effort to share the message of how to be sure of your eternal destiny. It is out of a concern for your eternity. You can despise this person for caring enough to share -- that's certainly your choice.

Think about this: If some one came up to you and gave you 1000 invitations to a party, everyone who attends the party gets a million dollars, a car of their choice & a trip around the world. Wouldn't you give that invitation to every friend & family member you have ? If you didn't have 1000 friends or family members, you'd even give the invitation to complete strangers in order to share with them something that was given freely to you !

This is how a Biblical evangelist looks at it. We've been freely given something that we don't deserve and we're given an endless supply of tickets that we get to pass out.

Bottom line is that you've got to ask yourself something: Why would the God that gives you breath and a beating heart each day accept you when you reject Him each one of those days He provides ?

Again, I can understand that. I wasn't raised in the way that I think today. In no way did my Jewish background have room for any concept that the Jewish Messiah had already come. I never shared Judaism with anyone because I figured it was a personal choice. Truly, it was because there was nothing redeeming about Judaism that compelled me to share it with me -- simply put because it offered to answers. Why would I share with anyone the fact that what I believe provides no answers ?

Please put serious thought into the fact that (no matter how old you are) you can do nothing at all to guarantee tomorrow. You have no power at all to control that. You can't even control your next heartbeat. Life is fragile. Eternity is a very long time.

well, i'll tell you what i believe.

i believe the core message of Christianity has been tainted, that tele-evangelists, Christian conservatives, etc. are as much about jesus as i am.

I believe that there is no cliff. I am not blind, and i am not walking off of it. i believe that you- and all Christians- have bought into the greatest lie in the world.


I believe god is a concept integrated into humanity and exploited by some to control others. I believe that christianity- evanglism in specific- is a sure path to destruction.

sure, you can't see it. but that is because you're blinded by the lie. I believe your misdirected love for jesus will lead to a wasted life.

That is what i believe. But you sure as hell don't see me telling you that you've got it all wrong. And why? it's called respect.

Love thy neighbor is a commandment. Convert him to Christianity is not.

^ Respect? Yeah, you're a model of respect -- dubbing all Christians as the greatest liars in the world is about the most respectful thing I've ever read in my life.

of course, and if you'd paid a shit of attention you'd understand that.

You actually pretty much share the same beliefs as me. However, right now I am wondering if I am a Christian because well I don't follow the Bible but I do read it a lot and love the education of it but I also live my life my way while I'm on earth. I mean I see myself as being a Christian because well, I believe there is a HUGE possiblity that God/Jesus exist. Your situation with your friend actually reminds me of my situation with my friend, only difference now is that were no longer friends. She pushed religion on me, told me I was sinning by having sex out of marriage, not going to church, being with a non-Christian guy ect..she is a big part of the evanglising area and will do anything in her power to try and push religion on people and get them saved because she believes if you don't believe in God, you will surely go to Hell. Me on the other hand believe that the same thing as you, I don't believe you should push religion on people or convert them and that I don't believe God will send good people to Hell just because they decide not to follow him. That's just something I believe. I also believe that you don't need church to love or worship God and you DO NOT need to follow the Bible either...afterall, we are NOT perfect, we are human beings.



You don't know which religion is real and whats not, that's where Faith comes into play which is believing in something you think COULD exist but I do agree with you there

Another thing I'd like to add, is that I believe I am a Christian, a Christian is someone who believes that God exists, a Christian doesn't mean you have to abide by all the rules or that if you do this you'll go to Heaven.

The sardonic comment still doesn't reverse the fact that you dropped the whole "I'm being dignified and respecting your opinion" crock at the point you dubbed the entire Christian religion a lie. I'm not condoning or saying I enjoy the misplaced zeal of Christians in their missionary/conversion efforts, because frankly, I don't. But don't outright commit the same foul as the Christians and then backtrack like you're just "making a point."

And don't patronize me with your tweenage, message board angst, tool. No amount of your smug, holier-than-thou garbage gives you such leeway.