once these people came to my friends door and scared the crap out of her young brothers by saying the world was going to end & to beleive in some crap.. needless to say i told them off. i don't care WHAT your religion is, don't force it on someone else. go ahead and tell me all these wonderful things, but don't force that stuff on me.. you're the ignorant one if you think i can't think for myself.

I love this guy.

Anyway. Tell me, Christians, how would you feel if atheists came up to your door to explain and share their own views? Non-forcefully, of course; just to logically explain to you why they think god doesn't exist.. what would you think?

I would think that yay, they're proud of what they believe and actually aren't afraid to put their logic out in the open. Go them. Um, if it was at my door, I'd do the same thing I do to other door-to-door people and say "no thanks, I'm not interested" simply because it's my home and unless I know them already, I don't like standing in the doorway talking to someone. But why should I think they or anyone else shouldn't be allowed to do that? As long as they don't pester or nag and take my decline the first time, I'm happy that they want to tell people.

Is there anyone listed here that would have to stop and think about what they should do if they were driving down the streets of a neighborhood late at night and saw a house on fire ?? Seeing that no firetrucks nor firefighters were present, would you be content to simply drive past knowing that there might be people inside ??

Is there anyone listed here that would have to stop and think about what they should do if they were walking by a public pool and saw a child drowning ?? Would you simply walk on by and figure someone else will have the time to help ? Would you run to the edge of the pool simply to stand and stare ? Or, would you disregard that the water might be cold -- that your new outfit might get wet -- that you've never saved someone's life before ?

If you have a beating heart, I think you'd run to that house and bang on the door to make sure that if there is someone there, you'd wake them up and get them out to safety. I also think that you'd jump in and save the drowning child no matter the cost.

How, then, can anyone here be upset with someone who wants to have a conversation with you about eternal things knowing that they talk with you out of a genuine concern (of course, giving them the benefit of the doubt) that you are like a person in a burning house or like a person who's drowning ?

Truly, we all stand on the brink of death every day. Not a single person can guarantee that they have tomorrow. The latest polls verify the ultimate statistic: 10 out of 10 people die.

If you believe in Heaven and Hell, please consider where your eternal destiny would be ? Are you 100% sure of where you'd go ? How can you know where you'd go ??

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave the 10 Commandments as His moral compass to know whether we'd go "North" or "South" after we take our last breath. Have you ever told a lie ? Have your ever taken something that didn't belong to you -- no matter the value ? Have you ever used the Lord's Name in vain ? Have you ever committed adultery ?

If you're looking at yourself and thinking, "I'm a good person and God will understand since He's so loving," be very careful. What you've done is made two very critical mistakes: (1) You're looking at yourself based on self-righteousness and NOT God's righteousness, and (2) You've broken another of the Commandments by creating a God in your own mind that is okay with the sins you've already committed.

If you've told a lie, you are a liar. If you've taken something that doesn't belong to you, you're a thief. If you've used His Name in vain, you're a blasphemer. As for adultery, consider the fact that throughout the Bible, we see that God knows our thoughts and judges our hearts and intentions. Jesus said that if you LOOK upon someone to lust after them, you've committed adultery with them in your heart already !!

I'm just as guilty as anyone of breaking the 5 Commandments mentioned so far. And just like everyone else, if God were to judge me based on His 10 Commandments, I'd be found guilty and would be well-deserving of a "Guilty" sentence and subsequent punishment of Hell. In the privacy of your own mind, if you honestly admit to your guilt to the above Laws you'll know that justice must take place.

Asking a civil court judge to forgive you of the crimes you've admitted to will not change his sentence of "Guilty" -- nor the punishment. Telling the court judge that you haven't done it in years won't change anything. Even telling the court judge that you just got finished washing his car wouldn't change anything. If he's a good judge, he's bound by the law to sentence you based on that law. God is only different in that He's a perfect, holy, and righteous judge.

This is not about joining a church. This is not about giving a church your money. This is about seriously considering your current position with regards to the God who will judge you once you take your step into eternity. It's an important thing to consider. You'll be dead a LOT longer than you were ever alive.

So, if you'd at all like to know what God did so that the fine associated with your "Guilty" sentence could be paid, just reply to this post.

^ Nice post. But quoting scriptures doesnt mean something is automatically true.

I used to consider myself to be a Christian. Heck, I go to a Christian school. But it seems the more I research and learn about it, the less and less I believe it. Now its gotten to the point that I dont believe it at all.

The main thing that started to make me wonder (a few years ago), and has led to me not believing at all, is salvation. I understand the concept that believing in Jesus will gurantee eternal life, but what about people who dont believe? They're damned. Just like you believe in Christianity with all your heart, non believers believe the exact same way. If non believers really are damned, then 99% of the world is going to hell. Would our kind and loving God do that to his children? Not the God I know.

The worst kind of people are those who are falsely religious; the hippocrits (yes i know) that populate our world. Belief in the existence of god, that's respectable. Belief in the inexistence of god, that is also all well and good. But when you see these people, who twist religion, and hide behind it, and use it for thier own purposes, these are the worse. These are the false prophets. These are the tongues of satan. These are the wolves in sheeps clothing, the ones you should really worry about.

Interesting. But please point out where I quoted Scripture. If you mean talking about the Commandments, I guess I wouldn't consider that quoting Scripture as if I'd copied and pasted Revelation 21:8. I named some of the Commandments -- they're universally known as things you shouldn't do.

I'm glad you're honest enough to recognize that you're not a Christian, then. Most people would be in denial saying that believing in the person they think is Jesus is enough. They're not looking to the Jesus who was prophesied in the Old Testment and who was revealed in the New.

First of all, please don't misunderstand: I don't believe in Christianity -- the religion with many different flavors. I believe in Christ -- Messiah -- and His Word alone.

Second, I don't believe with my heart. My heart's been wrong many, many times. In fact, my heart's led me to more mistakes than I can count. I believe with my mind because God has proven Himself to me. I'm a guy and I'm a professional software engineer -- both points major strikes against making emotional decisions. Further, I'm Jewish. I started reading the Bible to prove that Jesus is NOT who He claimed to be. I was wrong.

Regarding those who don't believe, you're exactly right. Anyone who has a problem with it will have to take it up with the One that wrote it -- the Lord Himself. If you try to break the law of gravity by jumping out of an airplane mid-flight, is it the parachute's fault that you didn't put it on ? Of course not ! You would have to put the parachute on first. In the same way, if someone's heard that Jesus is the only way to be saved from the penalty of breaking God's moral Law (the 10 Commandments), simply knowing about Jesus won't do it. You need to, in effect, put Him on. Trust in Him as you would a parachute.

Of course, the next logical question from someone who doesn't believe in the Jesus of the Bible is, "Well, what about those who've never heard about Jesus ? Are they going to be damned as well ?" Sadly, there's nothing in Scripture that says that everyone must hear the Truth of the Messiah. The Bible does rightly say, though, that each one of us has been given a conscience (meaning "con" = "with", "science" = "knowledge) by God. Every person lies with knowledge that it's wrong. Every person steals with knowledge that it's wrong to do that. Every person who looks upon someone to lust after them does so with knowledge that if they're mother were looking, they shouldn't do that, too. The Bible teaches that the conscience bears witness and when you break that conscience you've condemned yourself to the well-deserved sentence of "Guilty" as I stated in my previous post. But, if you're that interested in those who are in far-away tribes, get yourself saved and go there and preach to them ! Otherwise, you should really just consider what's going to happen to you after you die. Where are you headed -- for eternity ??

As for your comment about the "God I know". You're right. The god you know is one you've made up in your head - he doesn't exist. As I mentioned in my previous post, you've broken the Second Commandment and molded a god to suit your own understanding as opposed to looking into God's Word and seeing who He really is. The god you know is not the God of Bible who is described as a righteous and Holy Judge. Since God is love, He must hate that which is against love. Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil.

Here's a question for you: It sounds like you might think that whether you believe in the Jesus of the Bible or not, you're still good with the God who created all things. If that's the case, why did Jesus live a perfect life only to screw it up at the end by allowing Himself to be killed (disregarding the fact that this was prophesied in the Book of Isaiah about 700 years before He was born) ? If people that claim to be "good" can get to Heaven, then why did Jesus have to die ???


I couldn't agree with you more. Those who do this will receive the appropriate judgment. Nothing's hidden from God.

Don't let the bad example of some lead you to make an eternal mistake in rejecting the only way to receive salvation.

now i have a question for you. how do you know, truely, who the false prophets are?

god is my beacon. If i follow him and him alone, i cannot be led astray. many will try to show me their ways. They may be right, and they may be wrong. but i do not know.

what i do know is if i trust in god, i will find the right way. i do not need the guidance of anyone else; god shall find me, and i he.

what you preach may be noble, and what you preach may be good. but how do i tell? you are not god, so i must follow my own way.

don't judge me for judging you.
cuz then we get stuck in a huge circle, no?

I am full blown Christian,
but I never liked the whole "go door to door" thing.
but that's not what evangelism is about.

my form of evangelism deals with me living it.
I live how I believe a Christian should live.
I'll tell you I'm a Christian. and I'm always here if you have questions.
that is still evangelism.
you guys are just taking it to the extreme.

no one is ever gonna listen to you
if you beat a Bible over their heads
and tell them they're going to hell.

shoot, I'd ignore them.

but my point is, many of you who are
arguing against this are also using "evangelism"
-just your own kind of evangelism-
I mean, are you not sharing you beliefs?
and I don't mind...
the hardest thing to ever change something about someone
is what they corely believe.
so tell me what you believe.
because I really am fascinated by what some people come up with. :)

That's an excellent question. You use the Bible as your compass. You compare the teachings of someone who calls themselves a "prophet" to what the Word of God has said. If there's any contradiction, that person is falsely representing the Lord. Don't forget what happened to Moses when he misrepresented the Lord.

Please forgive me, but the only way to follow God alone, according to the Bible, is to be what's called "born again" (see John 3:3). You must be born again to truly follow God. To know if someone's right or wrong, again, is something that takes comparison to the Word of God.

How do you determine your level of trust ? Is it in simply following what you think is right ? Do you ever go in a direction that seems wrong in order to follow God ? If not, how much trust do you really have for Him ?

Be careful. Read Proverbs 3:5 and Psalm 118:8. How many times in your life have you been wrong ? I can trust in my best friend, but if I'm blindly following him on the road and he gets lost, I end up lost as well. You have to read your Bible, obey it, and live it.

In terms of trust, though, do you trust the Bible enough to believe what Jesus Himself says ? Do you see the words that He speaks and say to yourself, "Well, if He said, I need to do it" ?

What I say, if it has any nobility, is because it's from God's Commandments. He set them forth in order to show us how unclean we are compared to His righteousness. Picture a baby lamb against the backdrop of a bright green meadow. That lamb looks bright white. But, now take the same lamb and set it to the backdrop of newly fallen snow. That lamb now looks unbelievably dirty comparatively. This is how God's righteousness so drastically shows us that we are so far from His goodness.

As for me being God, you are SO, SO right. You should not listen to me nor trust me. Anyone who tries to share their faith with someone else should NEVER base their version of truth on their experiences, on their church, or on their emotions. I ask you to trust none of these from me, from anyone else, nor from yourself. The Bible is the only means by which to know truth. It's the only Book that's proven itself.

The beautiful thing is that God did endow everyone with a conscience that is meant to help show us all that we've broken His Laws. I hope you're not at the point that you've seared that conscience. Your eternal destiny's at stake. Can you guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow ? No one can. Why, then, put your head on the pillow tonight without getting right with God ??

Throughout the Bible, God calls all people to repent and to follow Him. He doesn't say that you have to attend a church. He says you are to separate yourself from the sins that have separated you from Him and to make Him the most important thing in your life (the First Commandment).

It's a humbling thing to know that you can't make it Heaven on your own merits. God requires perfection -- and none of us would make it on our own. This is why, from the beginning, it was foretold that Jesus -- the Jewish Messiah -- would come and give His perfect life on a cross so that the penalty for our sins could be paid -- paid in full.

Please consider where your eternal destiny would be. Jesus said that I should love my neighbor as I love myself. I don't want to go to Hell and my only concern is that you not go there either.

What does "full blown" mean ? Are you born again ?

Unfortunately, going door to door has become a trademark for JWs and Mormons. But that doesn't mean that that's not what evangelism's about. You just disagree with it as the means by which to share your faith, right ? Truly, it is a hard thing to step out of your comfort zone to start conversations with complete strangers, but please don't look at others simply as trees (Mark 8:28). Please look at them as God does -- as souls that have one of two possible eternal destinations. Just as you can't guarantee that you'll wake up tomorrow morning, you can't guarantee that they will either !! How terrible it would be to know that you didn't tell them about the only way to make it to Heaven the day before they step off this Earth and into eternity ! Wouldn't you want to have had a clear conscience ?

If you're born again, please point out in Scripture where any of the prophets or the apostles simply used "living it" as their form of sharing the singular Truth of God. When was there ever a move of God in the Bible where His representative was simply living his life with a smile on his face waiting for someone to ask, "Hey, why are you always so happy ? Tell me about what gives you so much joy ??" Never.

Think about how you asked God for His free Gift of Salvation. Was it at a VBS ? Was it an altar call ? Was it an evagelist ? Or was it someone who had a smile on their face and you asked them, "Hey, why are you always so happy ? Tell me about what gives you so much joy ??"

So, do you live as how you believe a Christian should live or how the Bible teaches you should live as a Christian ? Remember that "Christian" means "follower of Christ". Are you living your life as a follower of The Jesus described in the Bible ? Do you read your Bible and see ways in which you live that God says "If you want to honor Me, don't do that." ? Please strongly consider this question and answer it not based on pride or ego, but as God would judge.

You're exactly right -- beating them over the head with a Bible would never work. That's why I use a hammer instead. Much more effective.

Because I know that Jesus gave me a gift that I neither deserve nor could EVER earn, my desire is to share it with others who haven't received it yet. Because I know the promises of God to the person that isn't born again are true, I fear for them. Don't you ?? Don't you care enough about the people around you to talk openly with them about their eternal destiny ? Don't you care that they're promised an eternity in the Lake of Fire ? Don't you ??

If you say that you do, in fact, care then how about this: Do you care enough to do something about it ?? Because if you don't care enough to do something about it, you don't care.

If your neighbor's house was on fire late at night, would you simply knock on the door lightly and not want to disturb them ? If they came to the door, would you say, "I'm really sorry for bothering you, umm, but would you like to come over and, umm, have a cup of coffee at my house ? Not trying to say that we couldn't enjoy a cup here -- I mean your house is really nice, but, umm, I just thought you might like to have a change of scenery. But, you know, you just take your time and if I've offended you I'm really sorry." Of course not !! You'd bang on that door and yell for them to get outta there !! Their house is on fire for goodness sake !!

Please understand that I did not grow up with these beliefs. My current beliefs are not those of my parents nor the friends I grew up with. The people I called friends and that called themselves Christians didn't care enough about my eternity to tell me about Jesus. No one I grew up with ever told me that without repenting and accepting His gift of Salvation that I was destined for Hell & the Lake of Fire even though I thought of myself as a really good person. I won't do the same thing with the people that God leads across my path. Why would you ?


If it isn't clear from my previous posts, I completely trust the Bible as the inerrant, fully God-breathed Word of the Eternal God of Creation and of Salvation. Because I believe that, I read it. Because I read it and trust it, I obey it. Shouldn't you ?

As a "full blown Christian", do you believe differently ??

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

to answer you without quoting (geez that was long)

funny thing is, I really didn't feel like reading all that.
ho'crap and c'mon.
another thing, I made very general statements.
I really don't care
what you think about me.

yes, you are right on some points.
but I'm a lot less inclined to listen to you.
why? you attacked my opinions.
this is why I hate door-to-door.
most people go about it the wrong way.
"you are wrong, this is right."
I'm not gonna believe you from a 4 year olds argument.
sorry.

to me, full blown Christian means I am born again,
yes, but also how I believe Jesus would want me to live.
not by some guidelines you or anyone else decides to make up.
and I'll never fake it. ever.

how I got saved? one day I was just sitting in my room
and figured, hey, I'm pretty much a sinner, why not get saved?
it wasn't as "callouse" as that..but you get what I'm saying.
no one influenced me. I didn't even tell anyone for 4 days.

and evangelism is not all about going door to door.
you wish to refer to scripture, give me the scripture
where it says that we have to go door to door to "save" people.
truth is, it says to go unto the world and make followers and baptize them.

I hate using scripture in arguments, because things can taken however they will be.
so I'm not gonna pull any in here.
but I believe what I believe.
you are going to be frustrated because I don't agree with you,
and I'm going to be frustrated the same back.

that's life.

Yeah, sorry. I get verbose. I hope you do get the chance to read the rest of my addressing your points.

As for attacking your opinions, please forgive me if that's the way it came off. You made statements that (as with all things) need to be compared to the Word of God. Are your opinions so sacrosanct that they can't be questioned ? Are you so sure your thoughts are supported in the Bible that they shouldn't be addressed ? If you see something I've written that contradicts the Bible, I need to know. Please show me the verses.

As for a "4 year old's argument": Logic doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be true.

I'm very glad that you're born again. I'm very glad to know that you're 100% sure of your eternal destiny. I'm sad to know that you haven't been led to share the incredible gift that you've received with as many people as you can.

As for the guidelines by which to live, you're right. Not one single person on this Earth should tell you how to live. The Word of God should. I simply asked if you were living a Christian life that the Bible describes.

Bottom line is that Jesus Himself said that He would make you a fisher of men if you follow Him (Matthew 4:19). For some, that means fishing door-to-door. For others, it means fishing while walking in the mall. That said, by 4 year old logic, it seems pretty clear that if you're not a fisher of men, you're not following Him.

I agree that Scripture doesn't do much (again, forgive me in that I didn't know were having an argument, but rather a discussion) with someone who doesn't see the Bible as the Word of God. Addressing your post was my first real use of including Scripture. I did that because you said you were a "full blown Christian", so I made the assumption that you would respect the verses.

Because I know that I'm wrong in many ways at many times, I actually wouldn't mind if you would expose me to some verses to support what you believe in terms of sharing the Gospel. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to change. Actually, it'd be much easier and take much less time for me to not share openly and boldly. It would give me much less heartache to walk by people and not care that they're destined for eternity separated from God and suffering in the Lake of Fire.

Show me.

I really don't feel like discussing this anymore, because it has lost focus.
I never said scripture didn't have meaning,
that I don't respect it or anything like that
I read too much into what you said, just like you did me.

I have helped lead people to Christ,
but never the way you are saying.
apparently kids like it better when
you live what you say...
so I am doing evangelism.
just not door-to-door.

I'm not telling you you are wrong.
I'm not saying I'm always right.
I simply made a statement,
that I thought I could randomly say
without having to explain my opinions.
that is all.

it is completely useless for either of us to discuss
this anymore, so I am repspecting others by leaving.
we are no longer discussing anything.
this is a game of "who is right and who isn't"
and I don't like to play those games.
because in the end, everyone is wrong.
we will never come to terms, so I'm leaving
before this turns into a full-blown argument.

to everyone else, I am sorry I got angry.
please accept my apology,
and do discuss what you believe ;)

For anyone else reading this thead, please don't lose sight of the most important thing: your eternal destiny.

Has anyone heard the saying, "Your eyes are the windows to your soul." Would anyone sell one of their eyes for a million dollars ? How about both of them for 10 million ? You'd be crazy to say "Yes". Of course you wouldn't -- your eyes are precious to you !!

So, why would you take a chance on your eternal, everlasting soul when it's SO much more precious that either one of your eyes ??

Please consider that none of us have tomorrow promised to us. If you were to stand in front of a Holy and Righteous God and be judged based on your "goodness", you'd be found greatly lacking. Your sentence would have to be "Guilty" because God is love. As He loves righteousness, He must hate the transgression from righteousness.

Know that, as I believe everyone is here, I get nothing from saying these words to you. My only interest is to help you not be found "Guilty" on the day you're judged by God.

If I saw you park in a parking lot and stopped you to tell you that I've worked on cars for many years and I noticed that you have a very bad brake fluid leak, would you get upset with me because I cared enough to tell you ? Would you be so prideful that you would reject my input because you'd never met me before. Simply out of a desire for your safety, someone approaches you to please do something to repair what could possibly kill you. Wouldn't you want to check it out before you got back in your car to drive away ? Wouldn't you want to check for yourself as opposed to basing a decision on anyone else ?

If I told you that I had a gift for you and I pull it out of a bag and hold it in front of you, when does it become yours ?? It's not yours because I say I have a gift for you. It's not yours when I pull it out of the bag. It's not even yours when I present it to you. It's only yours when you take it from my hand and you make it your own. That's how a gift is accepted.

Please consider your need to repent and ask God to forgive you for breaking the Law that He's put on your heart. Please ask Him to give you His free gift of salvation. Every time someone shares the Gospel with you, God is holding the Gift in front of you. It's your choice to accept it or not...

I'm sorry, but i don't trust the bible. In my opinion, it has been edited too many times by men seeking political gain to be considered the word of god any longer.

if you believe in god, he will lead you to the correct path. you don't need to follow the bible.

blindly following god i can handle. blinding following the bible i cannot do. why? it's what i believe.

Have you turn to deism, Justin?

no, but i'm arguing one's point of view for this debate.

scottd, are you by chance a messianic jew? your icon pretty much states that, but i wanted to check first.

i myself, am an ordinary, albeit lazy jew. i have been trained in sunday school to resist the evangelical jews - Jews for Jesus. I've had to sit through lectures on how to respond to the "Jesus is God" crap, and I'm really just sick of it. I have no problem with messianic jews. I think they're...misguided (because by being messianic you are inherently NOT jewish), but I would never try to push judiasm onto a messianic jew. Same with christians. There have been many attempts to try to "save" me. Do you know how rude that is?

sadolakced acid:
If you want to follow God, but don't believe in the Bible as His Word, then you're left to follow only that which you think is right. If you at all believe that God has the power to create everything, why don't you believe that He has the power to keep His Word intact ??

Please take a long, deep look at the integrity of 66 Books written by 40 authors over 1500 years. Year after year, the Bible is confirmed more and more through archaeology as well as the through prophecies that come to pass.

We have the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts to know that what we have is unchanged. Yes, there have been many edits to the English versions -- not only to make it more readable, but also to try to change what the Word says and this is why you need to be careful. But, even those mistranslations can be found when comparing to the unchanging original languages.

insomniac:
Yes, I am a Messianic Jew.

Your comment on being a lazy Jew really cracked me up. Thank you for that. I never thought of it, but that pretty much describes me before trying to originally prove that Jesus was not who people said He was.

I grew up in a household that the name "Jesus" was worse than a 4-letter word. My father would become stiff with anger at the mention of His Name. I grew up thinking that people were either Jewish or they were Catholic -- no idea of the differences in so many Christian sects. I was so ignorant of Jesus that I had no idea He was even Jewish !! I had no clue that the guys that penned the Brit Hadashah (New Covenant) were Jewish men following the promised Messiah of Israel. I didn't even know that what is known as "The Last Supper" was actually a Passover meal !! I just didn't know. If you know these things already, you're far more knowledgable than I was.

When you say that you sat through all the lectures and you're "just sick of it", are you sick of the lectures or sick of hearing that some Jews believe that Jesus is God ? That isn't meant to be sarcastic, I would just like to know since I couldn't tell from the sentence.

Interesting that you say that Messianic Jews are inherently NOT Jewish. This is actually one of the first things that came up against me when I realized that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied throughout Tanach. How is is that completely secular Jews are still Jews ? How is it that Buddhist Jews are Jews, that atheistic Jews are Jews ?? It's simple: the term "Jew" has been used to describe both the bloodline as well as the practice of religious tradition (i.e. "Judaism"). Secular, Buddhist, atheistic, etc. Jews do not practice Judaism yet are still considered Jews because of their bloodline. For those who read this and don't know what I'm talking about, they may ask, "What bloodline are you talking about ?" The Bible teaches that there is a race of people that were born of 3 specific men: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The offspring from that lineage are called "Jews" after one of the sons of Jacob, Judah. Therefore anyone who has blood in them that follows down from these 3 men called "patriarchs" have Jewish blood and are Jewish. You can't change your blood. My belief that the Messiah of Israel has fulfilled His promises and has come already certainly doesn't change the blood passed down to me from my parents and their parents, etc.

I can only assume that your comment that Messianic Jews are inherently NOT Jewish is not based on studying Scripture or seriously considering the exclusionary statements made about Jewish Believers in Jesus. Instead, your commment is most likely made because it's what you've been told and you accepted it from men that you probably regard and respect. That doesn't mean, though, that they're right.

As for people trying to "save" you, it's unfortuntate that your perspective is that it's rude. True Christians look to the Jews with the highest regard since the Bible teaches that they've been chosen from all the nations as God's people. In fact, true Christians love the Jews and Israel more than any of my family members. They feel this way because they (as Ruth did) have made the God of Israel their God. The desire and efforts to see you saved is done in complete obedience to what the Word of God teaches.

Please search the Scriptures for yourself and find the truth in our Messiah. Don't take someone else's opinion or thoughts as fact. Not making a choice for yourself based on your own studies is still making a choice. Have you ever heard, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" ??

first question: I meant the lectures. I've started skipping them lately. I mean, really, one conversation is not going to change my outlook on life, and either is a lecture.

second question: I don't think a buddhist-jew relationship...works. If you're born Jewish, you'll die as a Jew, unless you convert. I'm not saying that, by birth, you are not a Jew. You will always be a Jew by birth, and I for one am not trying to take that away from you. But the faith itself, there is one God, and he is holy, and he saved us from Egypt....etc... well, in my opinion, you can't be messianic and still hold that statement true. i feel like such a hypocrite now... i'm so not the person to be talking about faith

^ Yeah. How can you believe in Christ, and not be a Christian?

And how can you believe in Christ and still be Jewish? According to most Jews, thats pagonism.

I'm not downing you for being Jewish or anything - I have alot of Jewish relatives.

Why would someone be in denial? It's not that hard to admit.



Uhh. Dude. Believing and Christ and his word MEANS YOUR A CHRISTIAN. What separates what you believe from the Christian faith?





Whats wrong with believing with your heart? Do you believe in Jesus with only your mind?







I see what your saying, but would a mother cause harm to her child for crying? Why would God condemn his "children" to hell?





You're right, everyone has been given a conscience. If someone has done wrong, and feels sorry for what they did, isnt that the same as asking for forgiveness?





Are you kidding me? You keep throwing the Commandments and other Bible nonsense out - with no proof to completely back up the Bible at all. Your twisting things, saying that I've broken the second Commandment and done wrong. What are you expecting me to do? Cave in and say you're right? Um no thanks.



And how the heck is what I believe Evil?





You dont understand. I dont believe Jesus is the son of God, and died for our sins. I believe that he may have been a prophet, who did claim to be "the son of God". Aren't we all God's children?






(Going by what you are saying) If nothing is hidden from God, then that means that he knows that most people are dying and going to Hell. Wouldnt he do something about it? If he loves us so much, like you claim, he would.

Answer that one for me.

insomniac & happykmd
I very much appreciate you both bringing out good points in kindness. I've seen where differences of thought and theology have brought people to harsh words and I'm glad y'all are willing to make valid points in a kind way.

There is still only one God in Messianic Judaism. If you're truly interested in looking into this further, please don't hesitate to let me know. If you honestly seek the Hebrew Scriptures, you'll see that He shows throughout Tanach that He is One, but as each one of us is body, mind and soul we were made in His image.

As a Jewish person, Deuteronomy 6:4 should sound familiar. It's called the "Shema Y'israel". I don't know, insomniac, if you're familiar with it. "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one". Please study the word "one" in this verse. It is the Hebrew word "echad" which is also used in Genesis 2:24. Ask yourself how "echad" can possibly mean "one and only one".

I've specifically tried to not come off as someone who only uses Bible verses to back up what he says. The Bible says that He is not a God of confusion -- there's logic to His Truth. So, in such a forum as this I simply use things that are easily grasped and which can be used as examples of real-life experiences.


First, remember that my comment was that "I don't believe in Christianity" -- the religion. The Christian religion is wrought with factions -- Baptists, Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc. Each one of these factions stresses one thing over another as opposed to stressing what the Bible teaches ONLY AS MUCH AS the Bible teaches it. These are man's divisions. Man will often look to something that sounds good and stress that. What separates me from believing in the relgion is that I look to the Bible and not to man. I look to Messiah as my teacher. Read Psalm 118:8 and Proverbs 3:5. I can't put my trust in man because like all men, that man's going to be wrong. Just like I'm going to be wrong.


The Bible teaches that the heart cannot be trusted. Read Jeremiah 17:9 to see why no one should trust their heart as their guide. God gave us an intellect in order to objectively study His Word. I use my mind to study His Word, but even moreso than my wife "has my heart", I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength (the First Commandment).


A bad mother would, yes. But if you wanted to see if someone truly loved you, would you force them to follow you ? Or, rather, would you allow them enough breathing room to see if they love you enough to seek you out and stay by your side ?

As for God condemning His "children": Please understand that the Bible never says that everyone is the "child" of God. It actually says the opposite. Please read Colossians 1:21 and John 3:18.


If you were married and your spouse cheated on you, would an "I'm sorry" look on their face be enough ? Would actually saying "I'm sorry" be enough ? How about a "Please forgive me" right before it happens again ? Of course not ! There has to be what's called repentance -- a hatred for the wrong that's been done and a desire to do only that which is right.

God's no different. He wants a person who loves Him more than their sin. Simply feeling sorry and doing it again means nothing to man -- why should it mean something to the Creator of the Universe ?? Please read Psalm 34:8.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that you need to go to a man to ask for forgiveness of God. You can ask forgiveness of God in your own private location -- room, mind, heart, where ever.


I clearly need to ask for your forgiveness for a poor choice of words. Please do forgive me. One example of my poor choice of words is that you read my statement as what you believe is evil. I said "Since He loves righteousness, He must hate evil." I was trying to make a statement that God cannot be ALL love. If He were, He would contradict Himself and sound like some sort of multiple personality disorder being. He is not. The Bible teaches that He is unchanging. He cannot love and one thing AND love the opposite of that thing.

As for the Commandments, please see Exodus 20 (specifically Exodus 20:4 for the Second Commandment). As for proof to completely back up the Bible, that would be a good conversation to have if you're really interested.

As for you caving in to say I'm right, I don't blame you for rejecting that. I've obviously offended you in my words and I'm sorry for that. I hope my mistake won't stop you from looking into God's Word to find the Truth.


I'm sorry to hear that. As I mentioned before, I appreciate your honesty.

I agree that He did claim to be the Son of God. If you really believe He made that claim and you don't believe He is who He says He is, please realize that you're calling Him a liar. By Biblical definition, if a prophet lies, he is a false prophet and should not be followed. The jesus you know would have died in vain. His lie would have led countless numbers of people to their deaths believing in a lie. Consider the apostles. Secular, historical documentation shows that all but John died horrific and painful deaths. What you're saying is that they died trying to promote a lie.

Bottom line is that there's never been anyone who's ever come close to satisfying even 3 Messianic prophesies from the Old Covenant. Jesus Christ satisfied over 300.

We talked about being God's "children" above.


Yes, He knows this and He has done something about it:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

They're known as things people who believe in it shouldn't do.

EDIT

ScottD, all the "should" and "shouldn't" things you posted disgust me. Are you telling people what they SHOULD and SHOULDN'T do? Who are you to do that?


So what if there's no God? What if we're not Christians? Why do we have to live the way some book (Bible) tells us to?

Good morning, icy_wonderland.

If you believe it's okay to lie, steal, look at someone's son or daughter (I'm not sure if you're a guy or a girl) to lust after them then you've seared the very conscience that God gave you. The conscience bears witness of the Ten Commandments that God gave.

As for the "should's" and "shouldn'ts" that disgust you, they're from God. Feel free to take it up with Him.

Finally, I'm not telling people what to do. God's done that through His Word and the conscience that He's given each person -- including you. What I'm doing is trying to point out that each of us will die some day -- no idea what day that'll be. And on that day, each person will be judged by the Living God. Because He's done something for me that I can neither pay back nor have I earned, I'm simply trying to share something with people that they may have never heard before or never thought about before.

If caring for others is offensive to you, I'm very sorry for that. Please examine your own mortality. We're all victims of the ultimate statistic: 10 out of 10 people die.

[Based on the latest edit I saw]

Since we're in the realm of the philosophical: What if God does exist ? What if you are to be judged by The God who shows Himself through the fact that we have Creation itself showing His existence ?

As for not being a Christian, please read somewhere above. Someone else asked the question and my response is up there.