^ I was about to ask for the specific references for the contradictions.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/pau...radictions.html

Well take a good look at this link... and debunk it please.


And Jesus himself didn't claim to be God... The Romans did, they changed the image of Christ and put words in his mouth. Jesus is the Messiah no matter what, but the Romans tricked the people into believing the only way to be saved is to put your faith in Jesus Christ instead of God.

It was a very clever move what the Romans did.

God is Lord... Jesus is the Messiah, not God nor Lord.

Oh I made another thread, and put up another link... I hope you prove there's no contradictions... even one contradiction proves the bible to not be authentic.

So many of those verses are taken out of context. When you look at the Gospels, you have to realize that they were each written for 4 different audiences, which changes the cultural focuses for each. SO just because on Gospel has it, and the others don't, doesn't mean it's not true.

As for female geneologies, there are some. My mother has one hanging up on her wall. And Mary is a descedent of David.

I find it odd that the Romans would change something like that, considering the fact that they were persecuting the church.

Wasn't it the Romans who had a court system who rebuilt the Bible by taking out "chapters and scriptures" of all sorts to fit their government? Or is my information incorrect?

And having idols, pictures/drawings, engravings, etc... of God and his creations such as heaven, angels, prophets, etc... is a sin. Why do Christians have crosses, pictures of jesus, pictures of prophets and their followers, why do they have pictures of mary? Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Why do they pray to idols such as pictures, crosses, and statues?

Why do Christians believe in confessions? Or atleast the Catholics do. Is it not a sin to confess your sins to anyone or anything for that matter but God? Jesus CANNOT change the laws of God. God does not give Jesus that privilaige. If God did... prove it.

Also why do Christians believe in these new prophets... supposedly there's these couple of men claiming to be prophets and they preach to thousands of Christians. God closed the seal of prophet hood... so what's the deal?

Jesus was given a test, a test to prove that he was worthy enough to become the Messiah. He passed the test, he defeated temptations over and over.


Also... unlike the Qur'an which you can take literally... the Bible has random scriptures where you take literal and many times not taken literal... what's with the mind games?

ROFL. You don't know how to read. Go look up those contradictions again yourself. Weed out the ones that are taken competely out of context, and then post the ones that remain. If I wanted, I could find websites with contradictions in the Quran, but I won't.



First of all, depictions of God and heavenly dwellers is not a sin. I don't know where you're getting this from.

Secondly, Catholics do not worship Mary. Never have, never will. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. Read a list of intercessions, you will see that any request made to God will be followed by "Hear our prayer," while any request made to Mary or the Saints will be followed by "Pray for us."

Third, Catholics do not worship idols. Statues and pictures are just representations of what they are. The reason there is a commandment against idols is that for the ancient Hebrews, the common pagan practice were to worship stone idols of false Gods. The objection is against worshipping false Gods, not representations of God.

You better re-read your 10 commandments.

Praying to anyone or anything for that matter other than God is a sin... that's paganism. That's something the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians did.

God has no partners, so askin from Jesus or Mary is still blasphemy.

That's funny cuz I see catholics bowing in front of a statue of Christ or John the Baptist, or even Mary, and they pray. Putting your trust or belief onto anything but the Spirit of God is a sin...

And how about confessing your sins to another human being? That's a sin as well, no one is to know of your sins by confession. Only God is worthy to receive your confessions.

This is one of the most commonly used anti-Catholic arguements.

Yes, the worship of anyone or anything other than God is a sin. However, that is not what Catholics do. I explained already that it is asking the saints to intercede on our behalf. It is NOT worshipping them. Think of it this way, would you rather pray on your own, or have someone who is very close to God pray for you along with you?



Jesus is God, so how is it blasphemy? And as I explained in my other post (you don't seem to like reading and understanding do you?), we do not worship Mary, so there is no sin here. It is like asking someone else to help you pray, there is no sin here.

Go read a Cathecism (you probably won't) and you'll see it's all in there.



Whoa. I had no idea that Muslims were not allowed to confess things they've done wrong to humans. Is that why terrorists won't plead guilty even in the face of overwhelming evidence?

You have to understand that Catholicism is the Church that Christ himself started. Jesus himself appointed the apostles as the first priests, who were given the mission by God to bestow his grace by forgiving sins.

I have to run out for an interview, but I really felt a need to touch upon one thing that is being said here.
I thought that one of the virtues of being a believe in God is the idea of acceptance and love, regardless of beliefs (or disbeliefs). If that is the case, then aren't you a sinner as well?

Also, do you know the roots of Paganism? Many Pagans practice a nature-based idea of living and being. It's about being at peace with the world, and its inhabitants. It is absolutely not always synonymous with devil worship or anything of the like. That is a misconception caused by the phenomenon of social colloquiums.

Not everything you read should be taken as definitive truth, especially if you are basing your truth on that which you find on the internet. There is bias and interpretation everywhere, including the bible (which has many translations and revisions).

By the way, did you know baptising is also an Egyptian ritual? To clense their sins away and start fresh again lol

Muslims don't have any rituals, everything is about one self and God only.

I just read the whole Qu'ran and Bible argument and honestly (from an Agnostic point of view) the Qu'ran is CRAP. I do not want to delibrately offend anyone but facts speak for themselves.

I highly cannot tolerate Muslims. I don't give a shit about discrimination/Relgionism shit, Islam is a religion that should be banned.

DON'T even try looking up sources that could convert me or whatever, I hate Islam and dislike EVERYTHING that is associated to it.

Call me ignorant, call me stupid, call me whatever. I don't care. I just decided to give my opinion because Tamacraker's posts DISGUST me. If you must know, I don't care about other Religions but Islam bugs the shit out of me. I am sorry but I was brought up to think like this and I will not change. Yes, I might be ignorant but SO WHAT? I don't give a shit. Mohammed this, Mohammed that, all = crap.

I'll stop because I'm getting really angry. Yes, I was brought up in a very racist / discriminating home.

Anyways, to answer Nikki's question, I also think it's stupid but then again, sometimes, it's logical.

I don't really use the internet for my information, I use the OT, NT, Torah, Kabbalah, Qur'an, Talmud, Astrology (not hororscopes), Tibetan and Egyptian Book Of The Dead, Book of Maccabees, Book of Judas, Book of Malachi, Christology, Metaphysics, Philosophy, History of The Mesopotamian, The Book Of Chakra, etc...

These are all recommended for important true knowledge... there's many more other books out there of course.






The Muslim religion will prevail, love it or hate it
Infidels can never understand the truth of reality. And you're admitting to all of us about your racism is enough for me to only laugh and think of you as a disgrace to the human race.

By the way, can you prove that the Qur'an is truely CRAP? As you say? Or is your racism and hateful heart and mind only stays blind to the facts and only spew out ignorant hatred?

Hahaha. If I am a disgrace to the 'human race' then what are you? (Muslims)? Haha. Anyways, I'm going to let you go kill more people. Also good luck in killing yourselves! Sucide bomb is the bomb!

Good job, reported.

You're welcome. I don't give a shit. *begs* Please don't kill me.

Ah yes, but yet the resources your provided in a certain post that I helped restore contained nothing but internet links. Hence my response to that particular matter.



By the way, such a dogmatic approach in life really won't help you in your cause to enlighten others. I do not believe that forcing one's beliefs (by indicating that those outside of your faith are a "disgrace") is the way your God would like people to be regarded. I also got the impression that Muhammad's intent wasn't as such.

And it it's wikipedia you are using, here's something interesting for you and your audience, courtesy of the all mighty wiki:

Doesn't sound like too awful of an approach, if you ask me. (Which you didn't, but c'est la vie)

Now listen and listen good. We all have different beliefs about God, religion, the world, etc. I do not speak ill of you because of how you believe or live, I would expect the same courtesy and respect. I honestly think that it is great that you are so passionate about your faith, I really do. But again, it isn't right to persecute others for not being a Muslim or subscribing to the teachings you are referring to. I wouldn't treat you that way, in fact, as you very well know, I defended the knowledge you so desperately wanted to share.

Zatanna you're just too good. One of the things that made me REALLY mad was his 'persuasion'. I HATE that. I don't go up to Muslims and insult them, of course not. I just detest EVERYTHING about Tamacracker, his signature, the fact that he's always on the defensive. He's always Trying to convert people.

What made me mad was also his statement about Christianity.

Tamacracker, thanks for making me detest Muslims and Islam even more!

I'm not telling anyone to convert to Islam... I'm just pointing out the mistakes made within Christianity in general. No one has to believe it, that's up to them. But no way am I saying, hey convert to Islam now, because it's better than every other religion.

But my posts are up there, let it be taken any which way people would like.


And Born in a burial grown... trust me you can hate all the races, religions, and cultures in the world, it's not my life, nor my soul on the line.

"Always trying to convert people" LOL



Ah I see what you mean, some of that information is even incorrect in that wiki page.

Well would you like to give me your definition of Paganism? And have a source to back it up if possible? I wouldn't mind getting another perspective of Paganism.

I can give a few:
from dictionary.com

From Dictionary of Terms and Tools used by various Pagans

From good ol' wikipedia:

In practical applications, it's basically a nature based religion, or what I like to think of as way of life. On a personal level, I never labeled myself as Wicca or Pagan, per se. It was a big deal after "The Craft" came out, which really irked me because what was intended as entertainment turned into a really insulting fad. Anyway, I meditate, A LOT. Everyday, three times a day, at a minimum. I do so in a very systematic and routine way. I always tell my mom (she is VERY religious and strong in the Mormon faith) that she needs to leave me be while I am doing this as she wouldn't want someone interrupting her in the middle of Sacrament (once a week, on Sundays, they do this). I've recently started eating meat again (not really recent, last couple of years and a long story), but it actually pains me to do so, since for a long time I was a vegetarian (vegan for part of that time). I treat trees, flowers, basically the earth with a great deal of respect (which isn't hard to do: don't litter, don't throw cigarette butts everywhere, try to recycle, etc).

Like I said, it's not a religion to me, but a way of life and a way of thinking about others and your surroundings. (That doesn't really answer your question(s), but I thought since I don't have good resources to give, I would at least try to give you a practical application example of what I'm trying to convey here).

PS - I actually have a number of books on the subject, but I have to find them since I haven't yet finished unpacking (I just moved a month ago). I would delve into this further, if you'd like when I finish unpacking (or hit the library, which I'm DYING to do since I've heard the Carnegie Library is really really cool).

Having typed all that, I realize that I am really off the purpose of this topic and for that, I apologize.

Pretty good explaination. But isn't there more to it than just Wiccans and people who care more for their environment? I was pretty sure one who worships multiple Gods was also under the category of Pagan. Isn't that the reason why Egyptians were considered pagans as well?

O/T (Off topic)
I'm not here to criticize anyone for their belief system nor their belief system at that. I did come off as if I was trying to disrespect a religion and it wasn't my intentions. It's not in my nature to hate and or disrespect in general. And I fully understand that belief systems is a very touchy subject, so to anyone I offended, forgive me.

Tamacracker, you are walking on thin ice for you complete and absolute disrespect. It is possible to challenge religious ideas without being offensive. Throughout the topics I have debated with you, I noticed a pattern with you. You will start attacking a belief, but when someone gives a defense, you refuse to read it and write it off as propaganda. Hypocrite, much? When I posted corrections to what you say I believe (why are you telling me what I believe again? I think I understand my religion well, thank you very much), you twist what I say into ad hominem. And you continue to ignore what I say.

Be respectful, be open minded and be responsive. That's all I ask of you.

Here is my rebuttal.



Hooray for ad hominem. Do you believe your prayer is worth more than the prayer of one who gave their life for God? Do you feel you are closer to God than a Saint? Me, I am but a humble servant and sinner so if I can get the help of a Saint or Mary, I'll gladly take it.

God has no partners yes, but God has his workers. What are angels to you? From my study of Islam, angels play an important role.



Do you pray only to cover sin? Do you pray only when you want something? I'm not here to get into a piousness contest, so I stress again that I am but a humble servant of God.

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

-Matthew 6:5

Jesus is not God, not in my religion. He's the Messiah, the savior of the human race. Doesn't mean we have to pray to Jesus nor call him Lord. In my religion, what saves you is:
Believing in God, knowin God has no partner, believing that Prophet Muhammad is his slave and his prophet, and that Jesus the son of virgin Mary is God's slave/prophet and also the Messiah. Believe that there's heaven and hell, and live by the Laws of God, meaning no commiting of sins.

Humility is why I go to confession.



Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?

Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny’s letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Showing similarities between other religions, ok what's your point? And if you want to point the finger about copying, take a look at Islam as well. Let's just say Muslims weren't the first to worship at Kaaba.



You have nothing to back up this claim. It wouldn't make sense anyway, the Bible makes Rome look bad.



Forced conversions aren't nice. But guess what. Christianity was very small after Jesus' death. They were persecuted by the Romans and were driven underground until Constantine finally accepted Christianity.

And again, if you want to point the finger, maybe you should take a closer look at Islam. Christianity became a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood. Islam, on the otherhand, took many victims in its early years and its eventual spread througout the Middle East.



Sigh. I said read a Catechism, not the New Testament and Old Testament. The Catechism is a summary of what Catholics believe, that is why I told you to look at it, because you have some mistaken views of what Catholics believe. And nice ad hominem you got there.



I assume you don't represent Islam then. Because my understanding from what I learned in school throughout the years is that Muslims are taught to be respectful of Judaism and Christianity and that those two religions are treated with honor as commanded by the Koran. And the Muslims I've met are very respectful. Though, recently I've found out some more ugly things like dhimmis and Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam.



I agree, only God can pardon sin. What's the problem here?



I smell lack of reading/undestanding, closed mindedness and pretentiousness here.

Again, I repeat, you're being incredibly disprespectful. Attacking my beliefs is fine in the debate. Attacking me or people who share my beliefs is not OK. Also, telling me what I believe is not OK.

Jesus is God so there goes that. Now, I asked in another thread. How can Jesus be considered such a great man if he claimed to be God?


Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a man, Messenger of God, and the Messiah, who will return to destroy the anti-Christ, very soon.

He was born of Virgin Birth, son of the Virgin Mary, but his mission was that of a Prophet, like every Prophet before and after him, and he taught the SAME doctrine of salvation as all of God's other Prophets: that salvation is through God alone, and NOT through any one of His creations. He is distinguished by his virgin birth, the sign of the Messiah.

Read more here: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

The NT claims that Christ personally claimed to be God. He said "I and my Father are one" "He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father" "I am the way the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me"

Jesus (pbuh) didn't write that sentence there, he didn't even take a look at it and authenticate it. These passages were written after he ascended to Heaven, YEARS after, and remained a huge controversy among Christians for up to 300 years after his ascension.

Some writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth. THEY are the liars, and Jesus said nothing but the Truth. He was neither God NOR a Heretic. The liars among the writers of the NT were the heretics.

Most Christians are told that Jesus' (pbuh) true apostles, i.e. the men that Jesus (pbuh) considered his apostles, are the writers of the NT. This is a major misconception.

The Qur'an talks about Jesus' desciples, that they are trusted and pious men, but there is simply no evidence that ALL the writers of the NT are the men that Jesus (pbuh) himself CONSIDERED his apostles.

WORSHIPPING ANYTHING OR ANYONE in ASSOCIATION with God, in any way shape or form, is the UGLIEST sin imaginable in the sight of God. In fact, God says:

Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin. (Qur'an 4:48)

That means if the Christian Missionary lived his life for JESUS (pbuh) instead of GOD, the LORD OF JESUS (pbuh), he is in SERIOUS trouble.

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "By Him in whose Hand is the life of Muhammad, anyone of this community, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in me, will be among the inhabitants of the Hellfire."

That's a VERY serious warning. Again, that does not imply ETERNAL Hell, but it definitely means that you can spend a LIFETIME doing good for other than God, and it won't count ANYTHING towards your salvation.

You're being emotionally led to believe that disbelieving that the NT is 100% the accurately transmitted words of Jesus (pbuh) is somehow akin to disbelieving in Jesus (pbuh) himself, or his apostles. ALL of these emotional appeals take as granted the assumption that the NT is something Jesus (pbuh) dictated or verified as true on his authority.

By the way, even among Christians there is no consensus that the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John were actually written solely by those individuals.

The tradition has been to presume this, though there is little scholarly proof that even these books were written by Jesus' (pbuh) apostles.

If you don't believe me, go to some prominant Christian websites and see what they say about the "authors of the New Testament". They are often pretty frank about it.


Proof of Jesus getting crucified? Pliny's letter to Trajan? The Muslims under Saladin stealing the Cross? Shroud of Turin?

Muslims believe that God saved Jesus (pbuh) from being crucified. They don't believe that his mission was to be crucified, but to deliver the message of God, like all prophets (pbut).

All Muslims agree that the Jews did not succeed in killing him, though they sure tried to. Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross. I consider that he was placed on the cross, but did not die on it. The word "salaba" in Arabic refers to "death on a cross", not mere placement on it.

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

And because of their saying in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - (Qur'an 4:157-158)

It would follow that the Qur'an is repeating itself: "and they did not kill him, nor did they kill him on the cross."

This would violate the Qur'anic principle of mughayara or semantic differentiation. If the Qur'an states "A and B" then A is necessarily different from B according to mughayara. It is a good idea to approach Qur'anic interpretation through the sciences and rules that were developed to help us achieve it.

A second proof against the above misinterpretation [posed in the question] is that the whole point of the denial is that Allah did not let his Prophet be subjected to infamy. The latter does not reside in being killed -- as other Prophets were killed -- but in the modality of being displayed on a pole like a criminal. Lapidation (stoning) is ruled out for the same reason.

A third proof is that, to my knowledge, the imams of commentary have not mentioned the hypothesis that `Isa himself was placed on the cross as a possibility, although they left no stone unturned in collecting narrations and going over the various scenarios. So the statement that "Some seem to think that he was not even placed on the cross" is disinformation posing as a statistical remark. The real statement would be that some seem to think that he was actually placed on the cross.

A fourth proof is that in Arabic usage salb or crucifixion does not denote death on a cross -- contrary to what is being claimed above -- but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation.

Abu Nu`aym in Hilya al-Awliya' (1985 ed. 10:154=1997 ed. 10:161) narrates with his chain that when al-Daylami -- one of the early Sufis -- was captured by the Byzantines "he was crucified" (fa salabuh), and "when the Muslims saw him crucified (fa lamma ra'ahu al-Muslimuna masluban) they freed him after a raid and brought him down alive. He came down and asked for water, etc."

Al-Tabari in his history Tarikh al-Muluk wa al-Umam (1987 ed. 5:414) in the chapter of the year 252 describes the events of `Abdan ibn al-Muwaffaq's demise: "He was crucified alive (fa suliba hayyan)... and was left crucified (turika masluban) until the midafternoon prayer. Then he was thrown into jail and remained there for two days. He died on the third. It was ordered that he be crucified again..."

There are also examples using the term salaba or crucify for defamation-displays taking place _after_ the death of the crucified, as alluded to in the Qur'anic sequence: "They never killed him, and they never crucified him."

When Caesar's governor over Amman at the time of the Prophet Farwa ibn `Amr al-Judhami declared his Islam, he was imprisoned until he died. After his death, he was crucified. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (7:435) May Allah be well-pleased with him, he believed in the Prophet (pbuh) in the Prophet's time, yet never met him, like Uways al-Qarani.

In the hadith of Salman al-Farisi about the corrupt episcopus of the Syrian church who died, then it was discovered that he had amassed a treasure out of the people's alms, Salman narrates: "They said we shall never bury him. Then they crucified him on a plank and stoned him." Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (4:77), al-Khatib in Tarikh Baghdad (1:167) and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya (2:311).

In 231 Imam Ahmad ibn Nasr al-Khuza`i -- may Allah be well-pleased with him -- was decapitated in Samarra. "When his head was brought to the authorities [in Baghdad], they [literally] crucified it (salabuh)." Al-Khatib, Tarikh Baghdad (5:179). It is evident that the meaning here is "They displayed it on top of a pole."


Let's just say Muslims weren't the first to worship at Kaaba.

Can you be a little more specific on this?

Forced conversions aren't nice. But guess what. Christianity was very small after Jesus' death. They were persecuted by the Romans and were driven underground until Constantine finally accepted Christianity.

And again, if you want to point the finger, maybe you should take a closer look at Islam. Christianity became a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood. Islam, on the otherhand, took many victims in its early years and its eventual spread througout the Middle East.


Christianity did NOT become a major religion with only the spilling of Jesus' blood… you need to come back to reality. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Roman Empire.
Then you have those missionaries who go to other countries and tell the poor, hungry, and sick that if they convert to Christianity, they'll get medical attention, food, and financial help. Those who do not accept, get left to die. Oh about killing those who are not of their religion? Didn't a "Church" help the Nazis? Weren't most of the Nazi regime Christians of all sorts of sects? Then you have the KKK… actually here, learn some of your Christology from past to current Christian terrorist organizations, who oppress those who are different under the name of "Lord Jesus":
Learn a little aspect of your Christology
You see how this works?

By the way go back to around 1470… pretty brutal around that time, whatever happened to peace and loving religion? I dunno.

Islam didn't spread by the sword… or in other words through oppression. There's bad people and there's good people, there's a person like yourself who claims to be a humble Christian and there's the KKK and Neo-Nazis. True people of God will see heaven and deviant people who thought they were people of God will be sent straight to where they belong… and that's not heaven. Islam does not oppress, but it defends. So why would the people of God go around converting people by force? They would disobey the Laws of God… for what reason? Islam is not about forcing conversions.

Also you mentioned something about a Christian convert that's set to die? Well as for the Christian convert, apostasy is considered a crime in Islam and is punished by death. The same rules were practiced by Christians and Jews in the past. Those rules never changed, the people did as they modified their religions. Islam doesn't change its rules.

I agree, only God can pardon sin. What's the problem here?

Well if you agree that only God can forgive sins… then why confess to another human being? What makes them special or as worthy as God?

Also about the 2nd Commandment with engravings, pictures, drawings, sculpting etc which leads to idolizing...

Drawing and sculpting living things have always been illegal in Islam.
Drawing or sculpting God, his heavens, prophets, angels etc.. is prohibited, but now describing them textually is permitted.

And the funniest argument I heard about drawing, engravings, and sculpting when it comes down to Muslims is they "used" to do it… So what? It has ALWAYS been illegal in Islam. Some people also used to drink and still do. That doesn't mean it is PERMISSIBLE.

The Messenger of God (pbuh) said:

"Those who will be most severely punished are those who imitate the creation of God Almighty"
The companion of the Prophet (pbuh) added: If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects.

I'm still wondering why your religion worships someone depicted in pictures and windows in your churches, if it goes against the Law of God.

[ Posts merged. Please use the edit button at the bottom right corner of your posts. Thanks. ]


This post has been edited by mona lisa: Sep 8 2006, 07:51 AM

^ Eeek with the double posting. Please don't, just edit the post instead of making a new one.

He clearly stated that Catholics don't worship idols.




Anyway, I don't feel like reading all the replies to this topic.
I don't believe just saying "because my religion states that this is correct" may be convincing to one in a debate because that is one person's own personal belief. However, when you're young and naive, your parents or guardians could have raised you according to a certain religion, making you likely to partake in that belief. You're raised to think that the bible/your religion is "correct." As you grow older and become more realistic in life, you may have doubts of what can really happen and can never happen, or what could have been physically possible to happen. But if you still insist on holding onto your religion, it will be difficult to convince one other side of a debate that you believe your ideas are right, especially if that one other side of the argument is deeply into their belief.

Overall, I don't think that using your religion or personal belief to support your argument is reasonable, if using in a vague way such as "it says it in the bible."

Ignore this so I don't feel completely stupid when you reply back to this.

Well I can use many other sources as well... from different religions, from philosophy, metaphysics, book of the dead..

Just to let you know, I was born Roman Catholic, then baptised into the Baptist sect of Christianity... never had a spiritual bond with God, maybe because I was praying to Jesus and askin Jesus to forgive my sins, and to help me and so on...

Then I became atheist after learning the facts of Christianity such as how it began, how did it spread, why did it spread, and also how badly it has been modified through out the centuries. What I find most disgusting in my opinion is the different sects of Christianity, how they pick and choose parts of the religion to benefit their life styles. We are the subjects of God yet we go modifying his texts and dividing his religion into "sub" religions or "sects".

Anyways, then after 9/11... and the horrific amount of lies that Bush brought to our ears, I started to think... "well he's lied about soo much as it is, he's probably lying about Islam too" Thanks to Bush and his tactics, I converted to Islam. And now I feel very spiritually connected, heck even my prayers feel like I'm meditating, now that's a "spiritual bond" with God.

Anyways, I know she/he claimed that Catholics do not worship idols... but the fact is God has no partners. That includes confessions/prayers, this person admitting that they ask for Mary or Jesus, or Gabriel, or Daniel who ever to help them speak to God is basically admitting that in the Catholic religion, God in fact DOES have partners... Your spiritual bond with God is between you and God only.. no one or anything for that matter exists.

All of God's creations have a purpose, such as his Prophets, his prophet's followers, heaven, Mary, and the Messiah.

1. We try to be like the Prophets, they are prophets because of the spcial bond they had with God. Our goal is to live our lives like the Prophets by following the laws of God.

a. Our Prophets gave us examples of everyday life and those Prophets gave us literature to follow the guidance.

2. Prophets' followers were people who only helped back up the literature of the Prophets with stories.

3. Mary the mother of Jesus, was the vessel of Jesus and his first apostle (though they say that's a bit sketchy, Mary being Jesus' first apostle/follower) We may praise her for being the vessel of Jesus, but nothing more... she's not on God's level.

4. Jesus is our savior, the savior of the human race. Believing in what God has revealed to us is the only way to be saved by Jesus, the Messiah.

Tamacracker, I am very open minded, even though I'm not too fond of Muslims, I don't go attacking them, never have and never will ALTHOUGH Muslims like you make me 'hate' Muslims / Islam even more. You're condemning Christians which is wrong. This is a VERY wrong approach. You're only giving Islam a bad name, even though it never had a good name (in my opinion).

I have a Turkish friend who happens to be a Muslim, she's aware that I'm not too fond of Muslims but heck she's VERY open minded. She's the reason why I'm trying to get over this 'Hate Muslims / Islam' mindset. But the fact is, you're making things worse.

Fine, you love Islam, you're 100 % Muslim but that doesn't give you the right to attack ANY religion. I am not a Christian but I don't go insulting Christianism. I was raised in a racist family which I am not proud of but rather, I say it out loud. I am the most open minded person in my family, I try to think well of everyone but people like you make it difficult.


That was TOTALLY un-called for. The Qu'ran has no flaws? 90 % of suicied bombers / terrorrists are Muslims and apparently (according to someone, I might not be accurate but who cares) they get their 'inspiration' from the Qu'ran. What kind of a book supports shit like that?

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a documentry on CNN on the life of Osama Bin Laden, he's a true Muslim but can you understand his state of mind? He's a terrorrist for the love of Satan!
Also, apparently your dearest Mohammed was a pedophile: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm and don't attack me, I didn't write it. Besides, that's not the only source, there are many of them.

I know I came off as 'aggressive' and whatnot, I apologize but all I'm asking of you is a little bit of an open spirit. How old are you? To me, you're just a typical Muslim but I might be wrong.

Just to make things clear, I do not hate all Muslims, just most of you, especially when you try to convert me / people to your Religion by condemning another.