First of all, a few of you may know my rather bitter and overly negative view of society, and if you do not, you will now. With that said, I do value my individuality even more because of its rarity in this society I'm so cynical about.

If you liked The Giver and Fahrenheit 451, this book that inspired this topic will thrill you. It's called Uglies (by Scott Westerfield). Last time when I read a book like this (The Giver), I immediately scrambled to all my forums to discuss it. Well, it's been a while, so new people... new opinions?

Uglies is a story about our world three centuries from now. At one point, we nearly destroyed each other in war, conflicts, politics; and we ruined our earth, made animals extinct by our folly, and used up nearly all our resources. The story is about how as a solution for our stupidity, our world became something like a utopian society. Everything is given to you, and nobody questions anything. You learn and lead a life normal to ours up until your sixteenth birthday, when then you'll be transformed by surgery into society's idea of what is beautiful. Once you're beautiful, you live in a part of town that is seperated from the "uglies," as they refer to the younger people, so naturally flawed. Once you're turned pretty, you party, have fun, and look beautiful. You don't learn, you don't think, you don't work-- you just live. You're very shallow, since this is a world where everything is beautiful. The ironic thing is, that description sounds an awful lot like the majority of today's society, does it not? Anyhow, one of the girls who is about to be 16 and turned pretty realizes that she loves herself how she is, so she runs away to be free and to be herself. The girl's best friend, Tally, who is also about to turn 16, doesn't want her friend to go, but does nothing about it and continues waiting until she could at last be turned pretty. The day she's supposed to be turned pretty, she discovers a nasty part of society that she never knew before. There's a committee who runs everything about society. They know everything about everybody... down to every last secret. They watch your every move. Well, they confront Tally about her friend, telling her to go find her, while threatening her to not turn pretty. Tally leaves, and find much more than just her friend... a secret about her not-so-perfect society. The group that Tally's friend ran away to wasn't just some random people gathering. It was, in fact, something started by two doctors who have all the secrets about turning pretty: when you're turned pretty, they not only change your appearance, but brainwash you to being a mindless drone of society.

Not to ruin much more of the book, I'd like to discuss this with you guys. The concept of a utopian society like this has its ups and downs. In one strike, it takes away greed, lust, poverty, murder, diseases, hunger, war, disputes-- basically, everything bad. Yet, it also strips you of your freedom of your individuality. All the people brainwashed don't know they're brainwashed, so of course, they're happy as can be... they know no better. Would this be a better way to live? Or would you rather continue as we are, and end up making ourselves extinct, just so the very few people who are actually unique can still have the ability to think for themselves?
How much would you be willing to sacrifice to actually live?

I haven't finished that book yet..
I made a topic on here a while ago and no one really responded so I just went out and bought it..
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148442

I'll answer this when I'm finished reading the book, okay?


Hmm I'll answer part of it, I rather think for myself and learn to love the way I am, I would hate to be brainwashed and be completely shallow. I rather just live life the way its meant to be lived and not change yourself be happy with what your parents were able to give to you. Being this supposedly pretty that society has left to leave isn't everything, someday someone will see you in a whole differnt way and think your beautiful anyway, along with your friends. As long as their real.

I wouldn't sacrifice being myself just to live. Not if the other choice was to be brainwashed.

There's a really great quote that deals with this in Neal Stephenson's novel Snow Crash. Unfortunately, I can't find the passage, since the book is chock-full of great points. But the main idea behind the book is somewhat like that idea, but more in-depth. It deals with the dichotomy between a regimented, dictatorial, but safe and placid society, versus a chaotic, anarchic society in which people actually live and grow. In Snow Crash, part of society is split into entities called "Burbclaves", which are basically autonomous suburbs which are safer than the rest of the world, but rigidly controlled and regimented. As the one character, a skateboard punk named Y.T., describes this environment, she ends it with a simple observation: "What kind of life is it, anyway?"

Our "war on terror" has made me think about this more and more lately. Sure, some might say we are "safer" now than before (a point I dispute), but what have we given up? The government wiretaps our phones without warrants. The government tracks what we check out of libraries. The government imprisons people without warrants and without trial. Thousands of young men and women have died in Iraq for vague political "values". Hell, we can't even bring water onto a plane anymore. And all for a bit of safety and security.

What good is living 80+ years if you're not really living?

EEP. I have yet to read any of these books (aside from The Giver), but it does remind me of an arc from season four of "Angel." As mentioned in a previous topic [that I can't find ]. I don't know if any of you actually watched the series, but in the latter part of season four, a being from another dimension comes and creates world peace. There is no hatred, racism, or war. Just love. Problem is she does it through brainwashing them. Making them believe in her against their own will. Another thing is the fact that she eats people to survive.. and since she has brainwashed them, they go willingly. Anywho, again, I concur with the consensus (gosh I feel really boring ); I wouldn't want to live like that. I want control of my mind... no matter how ugly I am or if there's no war. Granted, war, racism, and hatred will continue to thrive as society goes on, but it wouldn't be just if all that was taken away at the cost of our free will. Same goes with what Michael was saying - society has become more and more constricted. Going down this path with just lead to suffocation. Gah. I hate how I don't seem to have my own opinion.. or someone else states it first. Anywho, there's my two cents.

I would hate to live like the people in The Giver. Not only is there too much emotional stress being the Giver since you have to take the world of troubles by yourself. Also being so alike and controlled would kill me. I like knowing people all over the world not just in my little town thing.

^ Chances are, you wouldn't be The Giver. Also, you wouldn't realize how horrible it would be to live like that if you've only known that way of life.

Yeah that is true. I didn't think of that.

I'd do a lot. I'm also, a lot like Criss, and it was her that influenced the most of me.

Before, I was cacooned in falseness. I liked catchy, popular music. I tried to fit in to be cool.

Now, I could care less. I'm myself. Sure, I'm strange. But I like it.

I would sacrifice my LIFE to be who I am. If I get killed, that's ten-fold points to my cause.

I would never sacrifice my freedom and indivuality. Life has it's ups and downs. That's how we're able to grow as a person and discover things about ourself. Living in a utopian society would mean never experiancing (sp?) war, hate, racism. Of course those things are horrible but sometimes they also inspire people to take action and take a stand againest them. Living in a society like in the "Uglies" would mean not caring about anything. Not yourself, or anyone else around you. Caring about others and what happens in this world important.

If you dont care about yourself or the what happens in the world how are you supposed to live a full life?

That sort of book reminds me of 1984, the book by George Orwell. I saw uglies in the bookstore, and it looked really interesting, but i didn't read it.

i think i'd sacrifice alot to live. i know it sounds terrible, but i'd sacrifice a lot. except my freedom. of thought and of action.

First off- in answering the question:

the answer is yes.

One very trivial example I've had recently (within the last couple of days) is discovering that my son has to wear a uniform at school. Yes, I'm aware that many students around the world have to as well, but I fear for his identity. I really, truly do. Some say that they (the school administrators) make this decision so that those in lesser financial situations will not have to feel like they have to measure up, or that their children will feel out of place if they cannot afford expensive clothing. While this may true, I remember how fun it was to dress for school when I was child. I vividly recall how cool I felt when I wore rubber bracelets and fingerless white lace gloves as I tried my best to be as provocative as Madonna. (I'm an 80's kid) It made me feel like I stood out to an extent and it was easier for me to recognize those who may share the same interests. Again, I know this is a very trivial example.

The idea of a Utopian society is obviously not one that is new. Even Hitler had his own idea of an Utopian society. But just as I heartily disagree with him, I disagree with anyone who feels that if we all stood up, dressed the same, had the same religion, etc we would have better lives.. Diversity is natural and by unifying everying, the natural way of things is diminished.

Let's just say that the original version of "Stepford Wives" freaked me out to no end.

And yes, Kathleen - I remember Jasmine and that season very much resonates with this school of though. Sure, there was peace, hell even Angel smiled (and SANG!). But to what cost? Brainwashing?

No.

Hmmm. I could be REALLY sad and daw the parallel with cb, in that when there is no drama, and things run as they 'should' it gets indescribably dull...

Ultimately, there is a difference between being alive and actually living. If the former means sacraficing the latter, then it isnt worth it.

you can ask Jesus , Buddha and Muhammed that question . im serious . from all people i would understand those 3 would be able to handle those cicrumstances .they felt great , and they felt humbl e about it . they attained englightenment . and i respect that .

anyways ...all of you all are getting the wrong interpretation . were not talking about books because some of these points are far-fecthed from the point. we have too much self interest from what we want and need . you can blame the government and you can blame religion . you can blame the arts as well . there has to be a former means of tolerance . if everyone in some cases were a fully tolerant in which they can handle the situation ...add that with patience , trust , and understanding .. . yea it would work .. but as what mistress said ....we could end up over-populated . We also don`t take responsibility over our own world . Because first of all people we care only for our needs specifically and we place love on usless desires . Were too sophisticated for what we want and were not simplistic . If we used technology in the right way ...with the right means , that includes responsibility over our planet / cultures and differences ...then probably yea ...there could still be hope .