Different places in the world have different laws on abortion. Some states allow abortion up to a certain age of the foetus, while others don't allow it at all.

So what do you think? Are you in favor of it or against it? When does the baby, which starts off as a ball consisting only of a few cells inside the womb, actually start to count as a human being? Please give some explanation behind your point of view, putting into consideration things such as unwanted pregnancies.

simple.

make aborted feotuses up for implantation in a surrogate mother.

if no surrogate mother steps forward, then the the feotus is incinerated.

all you pro life people, YOU can step forward and carry the child to term. YOU can save the life.

and you know what? no one will set forward. very little. all those women at pro life rallies? they won't step forward.

hippocrits. they won't ruin THIER lives to save a "life". but they're sure ready to ruin someone else's.

Month One:



Mommy
I am only 8 inches long
but I have all my organs.
I love the sound of your voice.
Every time I hear it
I wave my arms and legs.
The sound of your heart beat
is my favorite lullaby.







Month Two



Mommy
today I learned how to suck my thumb.
If you could see me
you could definitely tell that I am a baby.
I'm not big enough to survive outside my home though.
It is so nice and warm in here.









Month Three



You know what Mommy
I'm a boy!!
I hope that makes you happy.
I always want you to be happy.
I don't like it when you cry.
You sound so sad.
It makes me sad too
and I cry with you even though
you can't hear me.







Month Four



Mommy
my hair is starting to grow.
It is very short and fine
but I will have a lot of it.
I spend a lot of my time exercising.
I can turn my head and curl my fingers and toes
and stretch my arms and legs.
I am becoming quite good at it too.







Month Five



You went to the doctor today.
Mommy, he lied to you.
He said that I'm not a baby.
I am a baby Mommy, your baby.
I think and feel.
Mommy, what's abortion?







Month Six



I can hear that doctor again.
I don't like him.
He seems cold and heartless.
Something is intruding my home.
The doctor called it a needle.
Mommy what is it? It burns!
Please make him stop!
I can't get away from it!
Mommy! HELP me!







Month Seven



Mommy
I am okay.
I am in Jesus's arms.
He is holding me.
He told me about abortion.
Why didn't you want me Mommy?






Every Abortion Is Just . . .





One more heart that was stopped.
Two more eyes that will never see.
Two more hands that will never touch.
Two more legs that will never run.
One more mouth that will never speak.


^^
i got this thing on myspace and i read it and i make me even more against abortion...but i think if the gurl and guy decide to haev sex and they are not ready to take on a baby they should wait..but if a gurl was raped it different...but i say i all against abortion..its wrong...

month one: i don't give a shit. i'm the size of a period.

month two: i have less of a heart and less of a brain than a worm. I am the size of a pencil eraser.

month three: i'm smaller than a barbie. I don't really have a brain- just a mass of cells.

month four: jesus f**ked me today. it felt good.

month five: read the rules.

month six: i'm f**king tired of that thing.

month seven: go away.

month eight: okay, maybe i'm not beign fair.

month nine: make good posts that contain more than something you copied from somehwere else online, something with facts, or go away.

^ that was on a myspace bulliten thing, its obnoxious to see that stuff but w.e

So neither take precedence, then the mother should be able to get an abortion to save her own life. Right? It's nice that we don't have to be in a situation where we have to make such a choice, but there are women who must make that decision. I was just wanting to know if you'd view them as immoral. Wouldn't abortions be okay in this case?


You said "Also, the mother knows full well the "consequences" of having sex. It's not like kids sprout from nowhere" and that was my answer. In this world, rape happens, not just whoring. I believe that in those situations, women have the right to abort.


I disagree. In my opinion, the mental stability and physical health of the mother is more precious than the life of her unborn. Of course, if I was a mother, I would not make that statement so easily, but I would also not take my life, or my happiness, lightly either.

Since your view is that state of mind of the adult is not as precious as the life of an unborn, I was wondering if you would you agree with me if I say that happiness is crucial to life? Also, do you believe in the death penalty? Just a yes or no is fine.

No. That would be putting the mother's life above the child's.



For the most part no. I would mostly view any abortion for this reason as immoral.



Abortions because of rape happen so rarely that they bear hardly any relevance at all to the discussion.



I do not. It is again an issue of choosing convenience over human life.



I respect your opinion on this matter regardless of how loathsome I find it to be.



Yes it is crucial. I do not accept that a person in any of these situations could never be happy.



No.

come on, still no takers?

1) So you would that both mother and child die?

2) Wanting to live is immoral?

3) I'm quite surprised that someone who have been so staunch on claiming that every life is equal would choose to say that the 310,000+ "human beings" are irrelevant.

Break down: most statistics will say something like only 1% of abortions are from rape. According to the AGI SURVEY, 1% of abortions are due to rape. Between the 1980s and 1990s, the Alan Guttmacher Institute cited 1,550,000 rape cases per year; one percent of that number would roughly tantamounts to 15,500 abortions due to rape per year. So in about a 20 years period, there have more than 310,000 abortions of such cases. Of course, these numbers do not take into account unreported abortions which may add hundreds or thousands more to that number. Also, KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE NUMBER ARE US FOCUSED. The worldwide number of abortion is supposed to be close to 46 million a year.

4) Sanity, piece of mind, happiness are conveniences?

5) Why do you find a person's need for mental stabilty and physcial health over that another's life loathesome? It may be selfish, but why is it loathsome to you?

6) So you don't think that rape or any trauma of that degree could ruin a person's life?

7) This will sound stupid since it is quite clear, but I have to ask, Aren't you Christian? Doesn't the Bible authorizes capital punishment?

No. I was referring to cases in which the mother would die but the child would not.



No it isn't, and that isn't the argument I made.



I didn't say any human beings are irrelevant. I said that, for the sake of argument, abortions because of rape are irrelevant.



Of course. It is more convenient for a woman to get an abortion than to have her child.



Selfishness of that level is loathsome.



It could have a traumatic impact but I do not believe that they will be forever incapable of happiness. I wonder how many rape victims commit suicide because of their predicament, or wish that they had been murdered instead of raped? They still have their lives while the aborted children do not even have that.



The Old Testament commands it, but those laws were fulfilled when Christ was sacrificed on the cross.

Yo mama was pro life!

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it




That really is an awesome idea. No killing and it won't put anyone in an adoption home.
If I was a woman, I'd do it. I'd even consider it for my future wife if she wanted to! I'll bet plenty of women would do it.

It's funny how all you anti-life people say this. It sure is a good thing your parents were pro life, or we wouldn't be able to hear all of your wonderful little nonsense rants.

Oh... wait.

I dont think its right..

-_-

1. This is a debate forum, isn't it?
2. Alright, it's human.



Alright, the burden of proof is on your side.
You have to tell me why a fetus should have rights, otherwise I can't give a meanigful rebuttle.

Note: "It's a human," is not an explanation.



Oh, yeah. You're exactly right. We offer all human beings, despite circumstances and developement, the same rights and priveledges. We treat them the same too. An infant is capable of living on its own. It has freedom of choice! Don't treat it like a baby!

An unborn child has little to no objective value in today's world. Also, as it does not hold the reponsibilities of personhood, we, in no way, owe it a right to life. That obligation has not been secured.



Terry Schiavo. She was human.
But, I most certaintly would not grant her the same rights as I would myself or other people of sound mind and body. A right isn't just a fancy little law, it requires a kind of responsibility, guardianship, and understanding. We assume guardianship for our birthed young, but no one other than the mother can assume that role for an unborn fetus.

really now?

everyone's willing to sacrafice someone else's life. not many are willing to sacrafice thier own, expecially for someone else's "mistake".

my mom was not pro life. I was born because my parents wanted me- not because they felt some sort of obligation to keep me alive.

trust me, it does great lengths for your sanity when you know your wanted by your parents.

^^--- would you rater be sad cuz they didn't want you or DEAD --- sucked thru a tude to a horrible painful death

Ok, that's fine an dandy. All I said was that I would do it. You can make that assumption and I can make mine: I'm sure there's plenty of women who would be willing to raise the baby inside them. But neither of us can actually prove either statement... so, what's your point? And I'm really not trying to nit pick your posts but I just thought I'd tell you to watch your spelling. I'd want you to do the same for me. You misspelled 4 words there.




So, wait... it's not a parents obligation to keep their child alive? So, I guess parents should just have the kids and leave them be? Oh, wait... but then that would defeat the purpose of parenting all together.

1) Why did you do that when I asked specifically in cases where mothers had to abort for health purposes?

2) What was the argument you made? I asked that in cases where mothers abort because of health reasons, would you see that as immoral and you said yes. The reason why she would abort her child because the complications could kill her, thus she would want an abortion. In that case, why is it immoral to want to abort the baby in order to live?

3) No, you said that they happen so rarely that they do not bear relevance to the argument. I in turn argue that they do bear relevance because you argued that all life is equal. Why would you say that all life is equal, yet belittle the lives of abortions from rape by saying that they're not relevant? They are relevant because, even if they are "rarely" lost, they are still lives, are they not according to you?

4) You agreed that happiness is crucial to life, yet now you claim that it is a convenience? Which is it, because conveniences aren't crucial to our lives.

5) So then, you would be okay with giving a woman mental torture so that one unborn can see sunlight. I suppose that's applaudable, depending on if you're the woman or the unborn.

6) Well, to easily answer question, google "suicide after rape". To save you time though, according to the National Crime Victimization Survey, 30% of rape survivors comtemplate suicide after rape. How many succeed, I don't know. We must also take into account that not all rapes are reported (for every 1 that is report another 3 to 10 are not), so the number of suicides after rape may be higher.

Now my question would be, why would a woman *want* or *need* to have the child of the whoreson that raped her if she is so unstable that she wants to kill herself?

7) Explain to me "the laws were fufilled", are you saying that it is no longer aurthorized by the Bible?

...that is precisely the kind of case I discussed. A mother who has to abort the child to save her own life. If she does not abort, she will die but her child may survive.



If the baby could live, that is immoral. She is choosing her life over another human being.



*sigh* Please try to follow along here: I made the argument that, statistically, using abortions from rape is a poor defense of abortion rights because of their rare occurrence. It has nothing to do with the value of human life; it has to do with the value of a particular argument.



Your premise that "crucial" is exclusive of "convenient" is false.



Like I said, a person's mental state is less important than another person's life.



But it looks like we can conclude that a great majority of rape victims find that their lives are not so bad that they would rather be dead.



How is this a relevant question?



I am saying it is no longer commanded by the Bible.

i ken spel ass baddy ass i vant n i ken stel macke meselve klear.

yes, it's the parent's obligtion. you're forgetting one thing though- a feotus isn't a child. you can argue semantics with me, or you can accept it. No more than an egg is a chicken or an acorn is an oak tree.

sure, it could be one. but that doesn't mean it is.

you have too much faith in humankind. you believe in people. People are selfish, heartless things that play havoc with nature.

all you've got to look at is the priests molesting the choir boys and you know, people = shit.

everything in moderation. that includes morality and virtue.

I am so darn confused, it's like you're talking in circles to me.

Me: So neither take precedence, then the mother should be able to get an abortion to save her own life. Right? It's nice that we don't have to be in a situation where we have to make such a choice, but there are women who must make that decision. I was just wanting to know if you'd view them as immoral. Wouldn't abortions be okay in this case?

You: No. That would be putting the mother's life above the child's.

Me: So you would that both mother and child die?

You: No. I was referring to cases in which the mother would die but the child would not.

Me: Why did you do that when I asked specifically in cases where mothers had to abort for health purposes?

You: ...that is precisely the kind of case I discussed. A mother who has to abort the child to save her own life. If she does not abort, she will die but her child may survive.

You: If the baby could live, that is immoral. She is choosing her life over another human being.


You're saying that it's not okay for a woman to abort a fetus in order for herself to live? That's the *bleep-est* sense of "equality" I have ever encounter. Here's an example senerio. Lets say there's a glass of water between two people, you and me, and both need exactly that amount to live, thus the glass cannot be shared. Only one can drink from it yet because they're so "equal" of importance that there is no way to determine who shall drink it or who shall die of thirst. You're saying that if I drink it, then I am immoral, but it's okay if you drink it? What makes you not immoral?

In likeness, it's okay for the mother to die for the child, but not okay for the child to die for the mother?

If you could live and I die, aren't you immoral and vice versa? Either way, if the mother dies, then the child is immoral and if the child dies, then the mother is immoral. To me, there is nothing immoral or moral about the situation. It's the highest form of desperation. Why is it so wrong to be desperate for life? The child is not in the wrong, nor is the mother.


It may be tempting but refrain from patronizing me. I have shown a modicum of respect, please endeavor the same.
I am saying that abortions from rape has relevancy because it does have much to do with the value of human life. I have explain in detail why that is so. I am not using that argument to defend abortion rights in general, I am using it to oppose your idea that all reasons for abortions are wrong, specifically.
I gathered that I have to be specific, thus using even "rare" events, because you are against "all" reasons for abortion. Why? I do not condone abortions of convenience, but I do believe in abortions for desperate situations. I wanted you to see that in desparation, there is no fault.


Elaborate, because "crucial" can be both exclusive and inclusive of "convenience" depending on the situation.

And if you haven't surmised my opinion, a fetus is hardly worth the ruination of a woman's life.


How did you reach that conclusion? Have you been raped?


Relevant in that we are talking about abortions and state of mind. If you cannot answer or would not like to, then say so.


So, no longer commanded, but allowed. That's all I wanted to know.

I am STRONGLY against it...i think that abortion is a DESPICABLE thing to do. The baby is a baby as soon as it takes seed in the womb...it doesnt matter if it has fingers or toes or hair...it is still a human being. Do you actually know what they do to those poor things. I bet most people dont...otherwise they wouldnt be so strongly for it. When they do the abortion, the baby is old enough to move around and you can see the baby[in a ultrasound]. They actually cut babies up into little peices, pour things in the womb to burn the baby alive and then suck the remains up. How SICK is that? Oh and i know what im talking about because ive seen pictures of it while my sister did a report on it. Who gives you the right to kill innocent life just because you made a mitake or you cant support it. If you are dumb enough to have sex without protection or abstience then you shouldnt be so suprised when you have a child in your womb a few weeks later...think people. If you cant support the child then there is a thing called ADOPTION! Now there are people raped and molested who cant help it, but once again there is adoption. Your parents werent pro-abortion otherwise you wouldnt be here. People are put in jail for killing people [innocent or not]. Yet do you see any of these mothers or abortion doctors going to jail? They are killing innocent people. Killing people who could have been...the next president, or pope, or rockstar, or leader. These innocent babies have become the mauters for today and the future.

i vote this thread closed for attracting too many noobs.

Haha, Justin.

Not likely. Some other "noob" will make a new topic and we'll all have deja vues.

I would offer you the glass of water. Your analogy is a false one because both of us have the ability to understand the implications of the situation.



The child cannot be immoral because it does not have the ability to make a choice. The child is not able to choose what can happen, only the mother can.




Desperation for life at the expense of others is immoral.



Because I believe that it is immoral to kill a child for selfish reasons.




I completely disagree with you.




It's really not going to be useful to discuss semantics.



I understand that. I disagree with that argument and its premise.




No, I have not been raped. I have come to that conclusion due to the lack of rape victims who have died from suicide.




I won't answer because it has nothing to do with the current discussion.



One might argue that the way Christ taught and lead is contrary to an attitude that would favor the use of a death penalty.

Then simply change the analogy to where you handicapped, or a vegetable. If I do not offer you the glass, I am immoral because I value my life more than yours?

Then if only the mother can choose and she desperately chooses her own life, she is immoral? So, the child is excused of all burdens of morality, though his living inadvertently means his mother's death, and that makes everything right? Sounds like the only moral you can accept, is for the mother to commit suicide for the sake of the child's life. Interestingly enough, I think suicide is considered a sin.



But aren't you arguing that the life of the child is "equally" desperate for life as the life of the mother?



Silly rabbit, that wasn't a question for you. But, if it is truly selfish to want to live, then mankind is in unrepentant sin until the day he dies.



Humor me. You said it's false, yet there is no explanation of why that is so.



First, your stats?

Second, you argue that all life is equal, yet you easily discard those who have died from suicide after rape?



Then one might as well argue against the Bible.

Your analogy is still quite flawed. But in short, yes you are immoral.



Yes.



It's not any fault of his own.



It's not suicide. Suicide requires a positive action to be taken.



The child's life is equally valuable. If you don't find it immoral if a mother chooses to save her own life rather than her child's, well that's your worldview and I do not share it.




It is selfish to want to live at the expense of other people. And I never said mankind was sinless.



An explanation would detract from the main topic and take up more time than I would like.



Please refer to your own post regarding that matter.



How am I discarding any lives?




How so?