i was thinking about why im agnostic. and i realized, its because i was raised in a christian community, not a jewish one. i never developed jewish ties.


so i was wondering, how do you feel about a child growing up in a community whose major religion is not their own? do you think its bad? do you think that children should grow up in their religious community only? what about public schools?

and i searched. i really did.

Nate's right. Others and myself brought up that point last year when we were having our Creationism vs. Evolution debate...

I'll bring up a topic that Justin made to further prove the point.
http://www.createblog.com/forums/index.php...98146&hl=fsmism

Now, let's read through that, shall we?

QUOTE

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

Does that sound a little bit familiar?

Let's gain a little more understanding of FSMism.

QUOTE

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

OK, now, think. What religion does this remind you of?
If you haven't gotten it yet, replace all occurences of "Flying Spaghetti Monster" with "God".
Sound familiar now?

Now let's look at some of the posts made in that thread.

QUOTE

how did they come up with that?

it should not be taught in school. imagine how the little kids would react 0o

QUOTE

then how do they know he existed. there may be written accounts, but what if they made it up?

QUOTE

^and what if someone pretended to be the flying spaghetti monster? and how did they find the texts?

QUOTE

^ok, fine. but how did they find the texts? how can they prove it's him? and how is it that we can read it? if it is from when the universe was created, it wouldn't be in english.

QUOTE

Wow, If I was in that school I would be cracking up during class and I'm pretty sure all the other kids would be laughing or sitting there bewildered. It's school not the "oh so true" news paper. This is like that kabbalah thing.

.....
FSMism makes fun of the faults in Christianity and Intelligent Design. It's made to sound (just as) ridiculous (as Christianity). Which further proves what I've been saying to people forever...



If you had never learned ANY religion when you were younger, and to learn about them you had to go through independent studies or at least be introduced to them when you were younger, there are things you would think are outright ridiculous, like Christianity, just like these people thought of FSMism. These reactions are so ironic because people don't have reactions like that to Christianity. Christianity is a mainstream religion; everyone knows about it and there are many followers.

If no one ever knew any religion and someone came up to you one day talking about a guy who appeared out of nowhere, created everything that exists today as it is and made all the scientific evidence to prove otherwise just to mess with us, controls everything that happens to you, lives in the sky with angels and waits for you to follow his rules and believe in him your entire life so he can accept you there, loves everyone as equals yet sends some to burn for eternity in hell simply for not being Christians or being gay...you would laugh in their face. It's so beyond farfetched.

When people are born to Christian parents and taught to follow it when they are kids, when their logical skills have not developed to their full potential, when they have the most wildest imaginations of anyone on the planet, when they will believe anything that mommy and daddy tell them because they're mommy and daddy and they know everything, they are brainwashed to follow and believe. Sure, some can turn away, but others' minds haven't grown and searched as much to find the flaws in the logic of the religion, but most will continue to believe because they were told to when their minds were still extremely impressionable.

So, that point is like, completely made. There's really nothing to disprove that...(I can give more examples: Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc. - Kids will believe anything.)

Far from it. Here's a public lecture given by Steven Hawking that refutes your notion through the use of science. There's plenty of contrary evidence.

Please explain. Cause, if you are suggesting what I think you might, I could laugh alot.

The quoted post does not refute the existence of God. The purpose of the link was to show a highly regarded scientist, Hawking, discussing God in quantum terms. I fail to see the humor you refer to.

1. I don't believe the quoted post was inteded to refute the existence of God.
2. And what purpose does showing a highly regarded scientist, whoever it may be, discussing God, in any terms, serve? Are you suggesting that such an event may give validity to the existence of a God?
3. This is still funny to me.

1. We are interpreting the post differently.

2. Yes, it may.

3. I'm glad. How about enlightening me with some of your intellectual wit.

1. This may be, but the intention of the post seems rather obvious to me. Read it again. It's about why we believe, how impressionable young minds can be, and psychological noise. It's more of a 'Kids Believe the Darndest Things' post, not a "God doesn't exist, in your face! I have proof," kinda post.
2. No. It may not. One of the better known logical fallacies. It's an argument from authority.
3. No. Ha!

1. Including the debate between creationism and evolution moves the post beyond the impressionable nature of children.

2. I'm illuminating the choice of the word may in one of your previous posts.


From Encarta


In actuality, the quoted "authority" in the link is the science of quantum mechanics. Your argument does not invalidate the possibility.

3. Bleh! I'm sure I'll see you again in other threads.

1. I believe that transition was only included to show the reaction people have to FSMism. As FSMism is practically traditional creationism with a new face, people should accept it, and take it just as seriously as creationism. However, as demonstrated, this is not the case. People are more apt and willing to being that a man in the sky had created the world rather than aliens, an invisible pink unicorn, or a flying spaghetti monster. The purpose of making this distinction is to suggest that the only reason human beings react different to these other "different" theories, is that they have been conditioned all their life to believe belief in God is normal. I believe the idea follows that if children were taught at a very young age, and brought up to believe by a majority of society and their parents that FSMism was true, and that creationism was silly, we might be having a very different conversation today. It is directly playing into our bias and prejudices built at an early age by conditioning. I don't believe it was brought up, in any way, to disprove the existence of God, or work as a counter point against Creationism. Read the post again, and maybe try to ask Sammi herself.
2. If we are basing an argument off the fact that I or someone else said the word "may" in such a way that it could be interpreted to help your case, you seem to be just fighting a straw man based in verbalism. Also, You said quantum mechanics proves me wrong and that my argument does not invalidate the possibility. I still don't think you get it. No one, and definitely not myself, was trying to refute the existence of God.
3. Ahhh ha. Probably!

^ Yea, he gets me.

That wasn't the point of my post, which is why I was confused as to why you (Illumineering) posted your Stephen Hawking article. It had nothing to do with my post. This isn't the God thread. Why would I do that here?

The point is that people shouldn't MAKE a child believe a certain way and that this way is the only possibility for them and that all others are downright wrong. Parents tend to require that their children believe a certain way or follow a certain religion and dismiss any others later introduced to them, that the others are wrong and bad. This isn't true. No matter what religion you follow, there is no other that is necessarily wrong. They are just simply not you and do not follow the same logistics as you and do not have the same mind as you and have not been taught the same values as you, etc.

If you are taught that this is the way and the only way, that is what you will know. You will discredit any other thinking offright, just as the people in the FSMism thread discredited that, even with its striking similarity to Christianity. It was instantly ridiculous simply because it wasn't mainstream. They didn't know it and weren't taught it, so it was wrong off the bat.

And I'm not trying to attack Christianity either; it's just what I've observed since it's so prevalent where I live. It's the same with any other religion taught in the fashion that it is the only possibilty and all others are simply untrue, no ifs ands or buts.

^ Ahhh...thanks!