Who do you believe are the worst Americans of all time?

Be prepared to defend your choices! I'm expecting a lot of "George W. Bush for being a stupid dum dum head," so make sure you can stay and defend your choices.

This is not a concrete list (actually, I'm going to pick some controversial figures for the sake of debate) but here, in no particular order:

FDR- For pretty much becoming a dictator during WWII, not to mention mishandling it.
Nathan Bedford Forrest- For starting the KKK.
Joe McCarthy- For his overzealous crusade against Communism.
U.S. Grant- For being a terribly ineffective president, especially after the Civil War.
Robert McNamara- For mishandling the Vietnam War.
Malcolm X- For undoing what MLK JR III did by supporting violent miltantism.

I can't think of any more bad Americans at the moment, but I'll let you guys have a go.

This is a debate. It is reasonable to justify your opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm asking you to substantiate your claim. Read the first post.

Define "worst" Americans. Until I have a clear understanding of what is you mean by "worst," then I will not take this thread or its starter seriously.

did we ask you to?

worst= worser than worser.

I feel no sense of patriotism toward any country. However, I'm glad I moved to New York, London is bitterly uptight.

Legally, Doom is a citizen but I do not share any sense of pride in this country. Include Doom to the list.

Michael Moore knows what he put in the documentary was misleading, but Bush did not know for certain that the intelligence was faulty.

Could Bush have taken the chance, especially since we know now about the scandals to protect Iraq?

If a someone yelled "There's a bomb on this plane!," but a bunch of people were just saying that there really wasn't, you'd still investigate it wouldn't you?



I still haven't read enough about it, but if it's true, I'd probably agree with you.



Point taken, since I've been reading that NBF's KKK is way different from the KKK we know.



But in a time as critical as post Civil War?

wow, all my history textbooks have been pretty different from Wikipedia bias-wise. U.S. Grant was still a corrupt drunk though. Could you name those who you feel are worse?



Read that as "I've been procrastinating on my over the break assignments."


Added to the list:

Axis Sally
Tokyo Rose
Hanoi Jane _\____ Traitor.
Alger Hiss- Traitor.
Julius and Ethel (?) Rosenburg- Traitor. (question mark because some believe that only Julius was involved, as the Venona cables show)
John Walker Lindh- Traitor.
Charles Lindbergh- Fascist Sympathizer.
Huey Long- Imagine what life would be like if he became president.
John C. Calhoun- For championing secession and no compromise.

Benedict Arnold doesn't count because he wasn't an American.

While we're talking about it, who gets too much crap?

A name that comes to mind immediately is Herbert Hoover. Way too much blame was put on him for the crash.

QUOTE(kryogenix)

Could Bush have taken the chance, especially since we know now about the scandals to protect Iraq?

If a someone yelled "There's a bomb on this plane!," but a bunch of people were just saying that there really wasn't, you'd still investigate it wouldn't you?

Maybe if he had really investigated, he would have found out the truth, no?
You wouldn't just bomb the plane yourself so those who could have potentially set the bomb would die, would you?

I wasn't aware that a Vietnam War protester and a Depression-era pilot were enemies to America.

That's not why I'm criticizing them. Protesting the Vietnam War and being a Depression-era pilot does not make you a traitor.

Jane Fonda talked to the enemy leaders about American strategy, sat on an anti aircraft gun that was used against American planes and broadcasted radio messages for the NVA.

Lindbergh wrote a memo concerning the strength of Luftwaffe (which was later proven false) that convinced Neville Chamberlain to appease Hitler.

Is it not possible that Lindbergh had the same faulty information and securty concerns that you attribute to Bush?

Your equating Lindbergh (the messenger) to Bush (the decision maker).

I suppose I'll say what most people I know are thinking: George W. Bush, simply because I feel he is a modernized Hitler. Wanna argue with me? Tough, I hate arguing because it causes negitivity.

Want proof? Watch the news with your eyes open

Bush is FAR from a modern Hitler. Get out of this topic. If you're not here to debate, why come to the debate forum?

LoL You care way to much about this topic...

No, as a community leader I have to enforce the rules. Please read them.

LoL what i mean is depending on the person GW can be bad or good...but you see for those who are more wealthy, GW is the right president because he can secure their wealth: mostly only for the super wealthy though, but most like the middle class such as myself: we get screwed over with everything...

it's also scary since because of him we have soldiers coming to my school to enlist people... which i feel is totally wrong since people are dying for this useless war

ah, I was right...i'm not good at this debating thing...i don't like it really...

Nathan Bedford Forrest- For starting the KKK.
Joe McCarthy- For his overzealous crusade against Communism.

I'd havc to say both. Forrest because well to be honest there will never be and end to Racism. But to do the things that the KKK have done are just plan wrong. Differences between different ethnic groups has been around as long as human kind has walked the earth. It will never be gone it something that people need to learn to deal with pretty much as bad as it is.

And McCarthy because Communism/Socialism isnt really tha bad of a political format if it is done with out corruption(Communism). Without it being corruoted by ppl with that lack will power it isnt that bad and it eliminated Class systems which are a mahor problem with society. But what McCarthy did to those that felt Communism was better was wrong. Beating ppl he thought where communist. Which meant Speaking againt the government or the "Norm" of the time. Wearign nething that was red. Or even some much as havin an opinion that someone else may have not liked. You rights as a human where completely revoked. And the worst part was that the Courts allowed it because it was "War Time." Lame.


Now for my big disagreement. FDR. He Saved this counrty from becoming and othder third world country. If it wasnt for him entering us into WWII after the Japanese attempt at Pacific Domination. We would be living in a much different country. The American Depression was not only felt here in America. But was felt by all nations of the world. America was a Huge Importer and Exporter of Goods and when the Market crashed many countries around the world also fell with it. It was the ultimate the Depression here in America that started the War. It started here ans was felt in Europe as well and German was already in a mild depression after the WWI. This made it easy for Hitler to come into power and make his attempts at creating his "Perfect" world. I dont think that FDR was in any way a Dictator during the War but more as a person that raise Morale here on the home front for the people and Saved our Nation from further attacks by Japan as well as the possibilty of attacks by Nazi German if we didnt enter the war to stop them from progression across the Atlantic.

Communism isn't a political format, it's an economic system. And Communism IS a bad thing. The thing was, McCarthy started a witch hunt.



He did? Some can argue he prolonged the Great Depression. He expanded government control over the economy. We're dealing with problems created by Roosevelt today. The Depression did not start WWII. The Germans did. Read up more on Roosevelt and look at all the things he tried to get to pass. When the Supreme Court wasn't cooperative, he tried to change the Supreme Court by adding more seats so that it would pass the New Deal acts. You say Hitler gained power because Germany was in a deep depression. FDR gained so much power because America was in such a sorry state.

Yeah he did manipulate Government. But it isnt ne worst then what politicians and Lobbist do today. And at least he didnt hide it. And Yes Germany was already in a post war depression after WWI which Hilter used to fuel his way into power. Also i agree that America was in a sorry state when FDR came into government. But it wasnt him that created it. Althought he fixed it pretty good. Also i would like to know what problems we are currently trying to fix that FDR created. Every problem we have in american is caused by our present President's greed and hungry for money from the oil industry.

Which is precisely why it's more important for Bush to check his facts before sending young men off to war.

Chamberlain and Bush were given faulty info, which is why they don't get as much blame as they could(should?) get.

I take it you don't think getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. (actually let's not debate the war in this thread...)

If you're going to say Bush is bad for using faulty intel, then will you say the House is bad for approving the war on bad intel? Are you going to say Bill Clinton is bad for Operation Desert Fox?

Interesting enough, Chamberlain is criticized for not acting, where as Bush is blamed for taking action. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



Manipulating the government is an understatement.



I don't get your logic here. Hitler didn't create the depression either.

FDR could have prolonged the depression by taking control of the economy instead of letting it balance itself out.



He was elected three times, pretty much had control over the economy and tried to pack the courts. The guy introduced welfare, minimum wage and the use of fiat money.

You wish we could blame all of our problems on Bush.

I don't think it's a good thing when our president manipulates facts to achieve an end, however justified that end might be. He told us the war was to disarm Saddam; if he meant that the war was depose Saddam, he should've just come out and said that.

Besides, the illegal detainment and torture of Iraqi citizens didn't exactly end with Saddam, did it?

No Hitler didnt cause the depression for Germany he used it to manipulate the German people into thinking that he could restore Germany to is Glory. But once he was in power he started the creation or the attempted at creating his Arian(sp) Nation.

Every Major figure god or bad or neither gained there power during economic crisis. Whether it was FDR, Hitler, Mao Tse Tong(sp), Stalin, Saddam, and tonz more. The people where looking for an answer to the problem and they offered a temporary fix to get them into power.

Also can you imagine what the world would be like today if America hadnt entered WWII? Chances are that much of the western World would be under german control. With Japan expanding East. Causing the 2 forces to meet in America. Which could have started another conflict (possibly)

UHHH It's like right in your face Gergore Bush 2 For starting an unwinable war no matter how far they said we've come

exactly what FDR did.



temoprary fixes that are causing problems right now.




can you imagine what the world would have been like if chamberlain didn't try to appease hitler?

anyways, the western world seems pretty good at resisting unification. America didn't help with napoleon, and the british still brought him down.

plus, both napoleon and hilter made the mistake of attacking russia. Don't attack russia. expecially not in the summer, because things will only get worse. attack russia in the winter, and you won't overextend yourself, and you'll be ready for the winter.

I have yet to see ne of the problems that FDR's plan during the depressions have cause or what we are still having problems with. And who cares about russia they are a Once super power nation that has since almost declined into the status of a third world Nations.

And Napoleons Problems was not that he attacked russia in the summer it was the his ego was to large for him to grasp. He felt the he could take the world in one swift motion. But solider morale doesnt last that long for that to be possible in that time of the world.

Germans problem was in the fact that they where fighting a war on too many fronts. Blitzkerg warfare is an excellent style of warfare if you have the resources to do it. The problem with germany was that they over stretched them selves so that they could not continue attacks for long periods of time. Blitzkerg was worked good for germany. But it would have won them the war if they had the resource to have continuous wave after wave instead of 2 maybe 3.