I'm a christian, grew up a christian, and i believe in GOD. But i did go to an elementary cathelic school in my early days, other than that, it was just public schools. In my belief- Everything happens for a reason, and that's God's doings
Yes, I believe in a Heven an hell

Why do you think we are living right now? Somepeople think they werent meant to be born. Everybody is meant to be born, God created us to have life. Now that is a big reason right there.
WE SHOULD BE HAPPY THAT WERE LIVING!

i dunt understand whwat u just said

Well I think everyone should believe what they truely want to believe. Because in the end when everyone dies, we will all disapear even if we were right or wrong about our beliefs. ?I dont know if that makes sence?

God doesn't make us suffer. Other people do. God gave us free will because he loves us. People that do evil are the ones that cause suffering. They are the ones who have no place in heaven.

How can you tell me I can't feel God's presence? Prove it to me, since science is 100% correct all the time and all.

About a year ago, I faced this sort of "crisis", I guess you could say. I was torn between the multiple faiths I had held throughout my life. When I was a boy, I went to church regularly, until about third grade, when my family stopped going. My mum was always a Christian, still is; I'm not sure about my dad, but I don't think he buys into everything. I considered myself an agnostic--I didn't believe in God, but I wasn't quite ready to rule anything out.

However, after having a few classes, particularly one on Japanese literature (of all things), I began to wonder: is there an afterlife? Who created this world? What happens when we die? Surely something as beautifully created as the human, and more particularly, the human mind, cannot simply wither away and disappear into earth upon death? There must be some way that it is saved. My faith began to slowly shift towards a view of a deity and an afterlife. Something, I mused, had to have created this world, and the cosmos, and the human being, and all the animals and plants and so on and so forth--it was too beautiful to not have been created.

Eventually, I joined a Bible study group to try to make sense of the Bible. I even started having one-on-one sessions with the leader of the group to try to make sense of specific Biblical passages that I had questions about.

In the end, however, I decided the whole Christianity thing was a myth.

Partly it started due to two classes I had that dealt directly with Greek and Roman religion. I realized that if one were to go back thousands of years, to ancient Greece and Rome, one would find that those people believed in Athena and Apollo and Artemis and Zeus and Hercules and so on and so forth just as strongly as some people believe in the Christian God--yet, very few people seriously worship the Greco-Roman gods anymore. They're classified as "myths". Studying religious history, I found a number of other examples of religions that were once seriously worshipped, but now have been relegated to books on mythology. And I realized something: Christianity, or Hinduism, or Judaism, is no more special than those religions; in five thousand years, people will be writing texts about the "mythical God" and these people called "Christians" who worshipped this guy.

It was then that I realized that it is purely human arrogance to say that we, as a species, are too "beautifully created" to cease to exist upon death. For better or for worse, I believe that is what happens: one dies, one rots, one turns to earth. And that's that. It sounds like a sad way to live one's life, but I realized something else: when one is dead, one won't care about one's fate; and even though his friends may be terribly upset, at least they are still living. In was at this point that I decided that the key to happiness and balance in life is not to live so one can get into a mythical heaven, but rather, to live so one makes the most of everyday, and grows and matures as a person as much as one can.

Another deciding factor was in looking at the world around me. I decided that if I were to buy into the idea of a deity, then the god must be like the Judaist "jealous, vengeful god". I simply cannot buy into the fact that, given all the destruction in the world, God is an almight, benevolent force. I understand the idea of free will and can somewhat buy into that, but what about destruction such as the tsunami in the Indian Ocean last December, or Hurricane Rita? How does the concept of a benevolent god play into those disasters?

In the end, I've found that science is a much better explanation for the world around me. Science requires some faith, just like a religion, but at least concepts can be proven, I feel, rather than just relying on blind faith. I think it offers much better explanations than religion.

i really don't wanna sound arrogant or offensive, but if i have a trace of it, plz understand...i'm just trying to figure some stuff out.

if you so believe that there is no god, that there's nothing after life, and that science explains everything. plz explain to me then how you were created, why you even bother with morality (cuz you won't be judged about your wrong), and how u think the world was created with scientific explanations. how the world EVOLVED from absolute nothing. it's kinda hard to belive that NOTHING...just turned into something all of a sudden. doesn't matter how many billions year back. it was still NOTHING.

Why do we deal with morality? Because I don't know. Maybe people are just inherently good creatures. I'd like to believe that, but I don't know if I'm just being naiive.

You're right, science at this point doesn't have much of a stand when it comes to creation. But there is still a sperm and an egg that combine to form a human being. That's science, not God. And not to be confrontational, but even in Christian beliefs, nothing did turn into something all of the sudden.


I like that first paragraph... Actually, the whole thing. Nicely said, and I see that. I just started this topic because I feel no matter what, it's like a shadow that follows me around. This so-called "faith". It's like a splinter in my mind I can't seem to get rid of. I can say "I don't believe in god, i don't believe in god" all I want. I still doubt my doubting.... does that make sense? I don't know. Sorry, I'm horrible at this writing business.

Well, to be honest, I'm not clear on the issue of the origin of the universe--this is knowledge I have not researched in-depth. I think it's somewhat explainable if time is defined as a function of the expansion of the universe. Since the universe is constantly expanding to a point, then contracting back into nothingness, this would mean that time is not linear, but rather cyclical in nature--there is no beginning or end. Aside from the initial creation of a certain amount of matter, however, the scientific theories about the creation of the universe do largely make a lot of sense. If you want to argue that nothing was turned into something, of course, then from a religious standpoint, one could argue: how did God come into being in the first place?

In terms of morality, I don't think of morals and ethics as something that is based completely on religion. I think that inherent in human nature one can find some basic moral principles. Why do I live morally? Why don't I go out and kill people when they anger me, or steal, or cheat, or lie excessively? Because I believe in being nice to people and leading as good a life as possible--not because I will be rewarded for it, but because it is simply the right thing to do. How moral is it, I ask, to live morally just because you expect a reward for it?

Of course, the more I read about intelligent design, the more I do buy into it; however, I think it only makes sense if one accepts that the Creator is not necessarily a kind, benevolent deity, but also (maybe even simultaneously) a malevolent one. He would have to be, in my mind; why else would he allow such destruction to occur? If I create something that I love, I normally try to avoid destroying my creation; however, if I am ambivalent about a creation, I'm not terribly concerned about what happens to it. I imagine a god could feel quite the same way; of course, that leaves the problem that, for the most part, God is ambivalent towards earth and the people on it, which is more unsettling than settling, to say the least.

im jewish (well not really...actually), and grew up that way. i went to synagogue most saturdays, acted like a normal kid..sometimes singing the prayers, sometimes doodling or folding the programs into shapes...i actually used to braid my dads tallis (prayer shall). but...i never really believed it. i guess i lost my sense of belief really young...too young. my parents fought all the time, my dad would yell at me, and i never understood why. so i used to pray to god everynight to make my parents happy, and he never did. and i couldnt believe that any god would ever let a child suffer every day like that....so i stopped believing. and today im agnostic.

I'm agonistic. The only reason I'm not athiest is because everyonce in a while, this thought while come o my head about there being something out there. Not a God persay, but something. I feel like I beleive it, but after a half-hour or so it goes away. I'm pretty sure ot's a false-belief. Like when you find out Santa isn't real, and you liked the thought so much you still beleived he was real, even though he wasn't and you knew it.

If there is something out there, there is no possible way we can know. Like mipadi has said before, the things that people believed so strongly in before, have now been written into myths. The same will come soon to the religions of today.

you're right about creationism also dealing with nothing turning into something. however, for me it seems a lot more believable that some type of powerful and eternal being or god created this incredibly complex and beautiful world. rather than believing that nothing....EVOLVED into something. especially something this complex.

there's also the flagellum theory that completely disproves slow mutation. cuz for the flagellum's motor to have worked and evolved....dozens of different working parts must have evolved all at the exact same time, to motorize and swirl its tail. cuz if just one of those things were missing, that flagellum motor would be useless. and since evolution states that orgamisms rid of things useless to them, then the flagellum motor would have gotten rid of the other few dozens of particles for the motor wouldn't have worked, and therefore gotten rid of cuz it was useless.

though science explains how things work....it doesn't explain how u became a person (this argument only works if you believe in souls), why you are existing, what is the point of our existence, what happens after our death, what is our purpose in life, how this world came to be (evolution is just a little too skimpy), etc etc.

to me those questions are very important cuz i base my lifestyle through those questions. you might not believe these things are not important, but then if you don't why even bother replying me or starting this topic. you're gonna die anyway and vanish forever...so why matter? what's the point of finding this out if in the end...you're still gonna die and cease to exist.

again...if i sound offensive...i'm really sorry. i'll put in a smily face just for you

How can who you are as a person only be explained through the use of souls?

Haha... nah, nowhere near offensive. It's wonderful to ask questions and argue. I love it. Few people do these days.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, though. It's just hard to break out of routines. I want to see the world from another angle, so I can come back and have greater consistency in my Christian life. I want to believe it knowing I chose it. (I'm like.. repeating the same thing I wrote ten times over)

I'd like to believe we cease to exist after this, and you know, if you're gonna argue that humans have souls, how do you explain animals not having it? They were created just the same, weren't they? Why are humans so superior?

And I believe evolution and creationism works side by side, but that's another topic for another day :)

Science actually can explain that. Genetics, brain waves, emotions, it goes into a very long and very complicated topic that I don't want to go into, and that I don't know a whole lot about.

This whole purpose of life thing, we have the same purpose as everyother species. To keep other species in order (food-chain). Just because we are intellegent doesn't mean that we are going to be going on some huge quest that is going to change the universe.

i'll say again...although creation also lacks to prove how god came to being in the first place from nothing....to me, it sounds a lot more convincing that a existing all powerful, eternal God/Being created this wonderfuly complex and beautiful world out of nothing. Rather than absolutely Nothing...turned into Something just because there was a big bang explosion from chemicular particles that were actually nothing which were mutating into something. that might sound a little confusing but you get the idea.

and about morals.... one doesn't always act morally to get a reward. they do it cuz they know it's the right thing to do.. like what you said. the belief of creationism might lead us to believe that there might be rewards for our morality, for an example, heaven. every human being has a desire. is the desire to want to go to heaven after death so immoral? God doesn't say we go to heaven by our good acts. God says we go to heaven if we believe in him and the fact that jesus died for our sins. true christians who act morally do it cuz they won't to glorify god...not to go to heaven...cuz they know they're already going to heaven. and of course there's many corrupted chrsitians in the world. pastors are no exceptions. but there are so many numerous christians who truly believe in God and in his ways.

in my opinion (which u guys my completely disagree with) i firmly believe that a design must have a desiger, a creation must have a creator, and moral guidelines must have been set by a moral being.

but u forget...all behavior in ANY animal had to do with its survival....

the early human probably worked independently or in small families and groups, maybe killed and ate other humans....but eventually, they got the idea that if they work in bigger numbers and cooperating WITHOUT KILLING, they can survive more easily...humans gathered in settlements that became villages, that became cities ect....

that idea that if they did not kill eachother and instead worked together to survive, was then imprinted and carried on into the nature and characteristics of present humans that we now call our "morals"....

all church does is help you to grow in god. like other people have said, you can be a christian without going to church.


i didnt grow up christian myself, i used to beleive the same as that philosipher guy (i thought we just died and had no soul). but my friend invited me to church and thats when i got saved and accepted jesus into my heart. my family isnt really a big religious one. my dad doesnt really beleive in god i dont think, but my mom does. i think my grandparents are the most faithful people in my family....

i know growing up christian may seem hard cause you have to fight temptations, but its all worth it in the end...

see the world from another angle eh? well you've argued with the right person. you see...cuz of my parent's occupation i have lived abroad for most my life...(korea, California, europe (mostly germany), Middle East (bahrain, jordan, soon going to iraq). i have moved schools 10 times and lived in dorms since 8th grade. all this to say i have socialized, lived with, and met TONS of different types of ppl. Muslims, christians, buddhists, nihilits, atheists, confucionsists, goths, satanists, not-give-a-damnists, creationists, etc. i freaking lived with them. my point is out of all these people, i realized the people that were most truly happy, bright, moral, and hopeful were christians. Of course i'm not saying that everyone is. but most of them were....especially compred to the others. though you might argue "just cuz they're happy doesn't mean they're right"....i dunno, i think these qualities of happniess, and all the things listed above are very essential to human life.

though there might be millions of happy non-christians, how do they truly feel about the fact that there's nothing afterwards....that all that they did...everyone they loved, everthing that ever meant something to them would be all completely useless and gone once they've died. i dunno about you but i wouldn't be too happy. what's the point of saving the world from pollution if you're gonna die anyways. cuz you need to save the children? well they're gonna die anyways too and i won't matter jack to them once they've vanished from existence. what's the point of giving charity to orphanages when the orphans themselves are doomed with the same fate as the privelged us when we all die and vanish forever.

how do i explain that animals don't have souls? well do you believe in souls? My main reason i can give you is unfortunately biblical so it might not matter to you. God tells us to go save other people's from damnation and evangelize to them. never says anything about saving animals. Why are humans superior to animals? cuz in genesis it says God created Adam to rule his creation. to rule the animals and name them.

I believe humans are superior to animals cuz we have souls. but to explain to you that we have souls and animals don't in a secular way...well um...one weak argument is that people cloned animals. i refuse to believe that scientists can clone souls. but they have cloned healthy animals that live normally. therefore animals don't have souls. cuz if they could live without a soul, then why have a soul in the first place? cuz it's not like the soul's gonna go anywhere after death...(this of course is a non-biblical argument). do you understand what i'm getting at?
what's the point of having souls...if we could live without them...and even if we had them we wouldn't need it after we die. therefore animals don't have souls.
correct me if you think i'm wrong or weak at some areas. cuz i'm trying to figure this out myself too (except the biblical arguments kinda show it to me all).

by the way...u korean??? u look asian in your pic

what i meant was ...who i am as a person that makes me different and unique from other people...and very different from animals. and also if one believes that the souls continues to live on after death, it is very important in explainng who you are as a person. of cousrse there's the other physical things, but i believed the soul was most important cuz that's what's really important cuz it lives on after death. (in my opinion...don't blame u if you completely disagree with me and belive that there's nothing after death)

Humans are animals. We just have a more developed brain, we're more intellegent. Well, some of us are anyway. (Reference to other topics, ignore)

Of course, I'm interested in the biblical aspect. Don't get me wrong... I'm not condemning Christianity. I'm arguing against accepting what was taught to you.

As far as happiness goes, let's say one fully believes there is a God and they spend their life following that. What if God really doesn't exist? That's an entire lifetime wasted, when you could've gottan piss drunk at that party just for the hell of it, saved the time on Sunday for a picnic (or earned some money at work), fell in love with the same sex, or whatever else makes life life for you. We could've done whatever we wanted. And we didn't. For what? Worshipping a figment of our imagination.

Yes, just disappearing and decaying is a depressing thought. But at least we enjoyed the time we had.

What's the point of all those things? Our need for survival. Living as long as we can, as well as we can. For our own sake. Not for God's.

I'd like to believe in souls. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure what that consists of.

People can very well clone people too, just like animals. But then there's that whole ethic that keeps us back. And when it comes down it, humans are animals too, aren't they?

Yes... I am indeed Korean. Haha.

aight sorry...let me rephrase that "humans are superior to OTHER animals because we have souls and they dont"

but this argument only works if you're either christian, buddhist, muslim, or any other religion or belief that humans have souls. i can disprove the argument that animals have souls too

Amazing.
Somehow, this thread turn out to be some sort of debate now.
It's time for the moderator to move it.

Indeed

the reason why i'm posting so many comments about this is cuz i'm in jordan right now and it's a forsaken desert country and i have jack else to do

let's say that a person decided to be a christian and sacrifice other "worldly temptations" and lived a moral christian life and was happy about it. (cuz true christians are happy about their christian life). but then he died. and there was nothing afterwards. the point is...he doesn't know about how he wasted he life. he died. what's more important is...he lived a happy life. just like a secular person would have his "happy" life by partying every other night and getting high every tuesdays. because he ceases to exist he never realizes that he could've done other things...BUT he STILL lived a happy life. if one believes that there's nothing afterwards...his only reason to be living would to live happily and do what he wants...right? well the christian who died lived happily and became a christian in his own will. he has the same right to be a christian just as a non christian person to be a non christian. you said..."at least we enjoyed the time we had". partying might not be the only way to be happy. a lot of people become VERY happy through worshipping and praising God. being happy by being high or drunk or having premarital sex can be enjoyable (however for only temporarily during the act). but praising god and worshipping him leaves christians happy for way longer periods of time. a lot of times even permanently


yes....humans have been cloned...but only the embryonic stem cells. and there's no knowing yet if those cloned ESCs have souls in them. for me...i don't even know if uncloned ESCs are even considered human beings and have souls in them. i might be offending dozens of ppl right now...but that's just my opionion. i believe life comes from feelings. (well not only feelings, but it's an important part). however, a ESC does not have a central nervous system...and therefore cannot feel. u get the idea. that's why i believe that human beings (with souls) have not yet been cloned yet. or can get cloned.

ha!! i knew you were korean. a korean can always tell another korean apart form chinese or japanese