An 85 year-old man committed suicide in my town last week. His wife died about 4 years ago from cancer. His daugher-in-law died 6 years ago from cancer. His son had a heart attack and died last week. His only living relatives were his only son's 2 children. They asked him to move near them so they could be closer together. They said they would build him a house near them in Philadelphia so they could take care of him.

After he buried his son, he took his dog to the kennel the next day, returned home, and shot himself.

Was this man justified in doing this? Is this an overreaction to a difficult situation that he could have accepted over time? Was he placing his grandchildren under a more difficult situation because he was feeling sorry for himself? When his granddaughter found out, she almost miscarried her baby because she was so emotional. Doesn't the bible say suicide is a sin? (He was a Christian.)

Because he didn't want to burden anyone and had lost everyone that he was close to, was his decision acceptable? Let's face it, the best years of his life were over and he has the right to decide when and how he should leave this earth. His actions should be respected.

I'm having a hard time resolving this. Although I can respect his right to decide what he wants to do with his life, I also feel that his actions were somewhat selfish.

What do you think?

Any suicide is justified. If people really want to kill themselves, so be it. I don't care if it's a sin. You can't stop someone from killing themselves. Obviously they just don't wanna live anymore. It's not like you can arrest someone who's dead for killing themselves, not that it could be in any way a crime in the first place. It's your choice what to do with YOUR body.

how many times do i have to say this:
I DON"T ALWAYS ARGUE MY BELIEFS.

so look at it logically a second. i provided logical reasons. So instead of questioning my moral standing, refute them. cus if you don't do that, then the debate just isn't fun.

Wait, why are you arguing over morality? The topic is about justicifcation, therefore, YES, it is justified as one is in control of one's destiny.

Because he was Christian (read the first post) and Christian morals says suicide is not justified. By throwing away his life, he acted in cowardice against his own belief, disregarding everyone for self sympathy.


this argument has already been said... many times. But this world does not concern just the "one" person. Just because "one is in control" does NOT mean it is justified to the rest of us.

There's your argument back, Olive.

I like to quote myself too. Whats your point, Headphones?

Well, the debate isn't about Christianity, it's about if it's justified for everyone (not just Christians, since they don't dictate the morals of the world) and that was the point of my argument.

Who cares if they're selfish? People are selfish all the time.

Who cares? well lets see... his remaining relatives that had to LIVE through HIS death? SOME people are selfish all the time - doesn't that say something? Or do you think selfishness is also justified?



Who ever said the debate was about Christianity dictating the morals of the world? However many of the principles you see in Christianity is applied to law. Therefore, the victim of this suicide is not the man, but the people affected by it, that is, his family. Re-read the last few pages if you don't understand the argument I placed on his beliefs. I see no need to repeat if your argument is based on YOUR beliefs, rather than the case of the man in the first post.

My intent is to examine the the circumstances surrounding the specific suicide that started this thread. The age of the man, his religious beliefs and other information were added to provide enough information to substantiate a point-of-view that supports or rejects any potential justification. While any argument can be applied to a larger group of people as a litmus test of validity, as I stated previously, my intent was to examine this specific situation.

I am interested in not only how people view the topic starter, but the methodology, if any, used to substantiate a perspective. I hoped to elicit a range of responses that drew from any source of justification.

Thanks to everyone for reading and participating in this topic. It is a difficult issue to examine as it touches the heart of core religious, spiritual and personal beliefs. Even though I hold a personal view that may be contrary to the perspective of other people, I am nontheless enlightened by the collective voice that this thread is developing.

Well since you brought religion into the picture, thats a whole different story.

Well if everyone is in control of their own destiny, why shouldnt it not be justified? Yes, one does not equal everyone else, but everyone does have control of their lives.

I'm not positive, but Olive might be saying that Christianity prevents an adequate justification because he accepted the principles of that faith when he was baptized. Although we are individually in control of our destiny, the principles of his faith would nullify an attempt to support his actions. Again, this is only my unendorsed interpretation of her argument.

Well yes, but if Mr. John Smith from Nebraska kills himself, what difference does it make to Miss Olive?

If the person who kills themselves isn't a Christian and doesn't accept those morals, they sinned (to the Christian people, not to them). Yes, it will make some people sad, but so does relatives dying due to the death penalty. So does getting broken up with. If someone dies in a car crash, have they sinned because they make others sad?

While your point is valid, the man who is the subject of this thread was a Christian. Is he, as a result, bound by the principles of his faith to not kill himself?

I agree with your view of sadness/suffering. That is an individual choice that can be arbitrarily related to anything. It is up to the individual who defines any aspect of life in terms of sadness/suffering to liberate themselves from it, (if they choose) or be a victim of life and the inevitability of death.

I don't agree with religion, so I don't think religion should dictate your morals. You should dictate your morals. He obviously doesn't agree with the Christian morals, and, therefore, is not a Christian at heart, so that part of the argument doesn't matter.

I understand and respect your individual view, but isn't his Christian faith anchored by a baptism? It seems to be too easy to say that it's OK because he was unable to meet the expectations of his faith.

My greater question/point is one of consequence. If there is an existence beyond life on earth, as many people believe, is there an outcome of his action that will effect the journey of his spirit? If you don't support the belief in an afterlife, this question is pointless.

u cant just judge someone's actions by the story/news written. do u noe how he was treated as a person by his family? or how he viewed life and the afterlife? no one can say whether he was right or wrong based on secondary information. u can never noe the deceased man's story.

also, keep in mind that he is 85 years of age. most of his most-beloved relatives have passed away. i'm sure none of us have lived that long to witness so many deaths in our families. and note that his SON died also, which must have been a horrific shock. many people will give anything to die before their children. it is hard to see his point of view, so it's better NOT to judge him as a person with his suicide

This was never a story that reached the news. His son was a teacher of mine. His grandchildren are friends as well. We took vacations together when we were kids. My understanding of this tragic event is the result of my close relationship to his family.

Quit preaching when you are obviously unaware of the nature of my relationship to him and his family.

i think it should be considered selfish by his relatives that he remain alive when he wanted to be dead.

ever think of that spin on the whole selfishness arguement?

he wants to be dead. people don't want him to be dead because they selfishly want him to remain alive and miserable.

This is an interesting perspective. I'm having a hard time using suffering as a basis of his actions. Many people can identify with difficulties in life and live beyond their struggles. Care to elaborate on your idea?

actually, i don't feel comfortable debating about this. it's sad that this man had to go through all of those deaths, and we don't have the right to even blame him for doing such a thing. yes, suicide is wrong and can be prevented, but who knows? he's probably happier where he is now. it baffles me that you people can argue about this case when obviously none of you, including myself, have ever been put in that situation. the least you could do is feel bad for his family, who obviously have gone through enough already. so yeah. it'd be different if the topic was "is committing suicide wrong?" wow, i think everyone who is against this case should really reevaulate their lives and realize that they're LUCKY that they were never put into this situation whether to live or die.

well, what's the use of living older, if you have no one?

the only reason i would see tolive older would be to have someone to share it with. someone younger who sticks me in a room and goes off to work every day wouldn't be my idea of that.

if i found myself in the same situation i'd have done the same. except i'd have bought a motorcycle, and just ride it like everyone else. (brings me to a story- i'm driving on the interstate at 80 MPH and i'm changing lanes left and then this motorcycle blows by at like... 110 MPH and scare the shit out of me... i mean, i almost changed lanes into this guy... )

anyways: suicide seems wrong to people, but i mean, we're all going to die anyways. if someone chooses to remove some 15 years of their life that will probably be spent watching TV being depressed in a nursing home or someone's house (while, because of your presence thier marriage is falling apart and thier kids are growing rebellious)(which may or may not happen, depends), then surely living relatives can accept that reasoning, right?

i'm sure that his relatives knew he would die sooner or later, so why not let him pick sooner?

now picking for him would be wrong, but it is still his life, and although there are many other moral considerations, it does appear to still be his life.

This topic is not about blame. I don't see anyone arguing about anything either. There is no need to feel bad for his family if your notion of him being happier where he is now is true.

I have been in several life and death situations. One of them was when I was diagnosed with cancer that metastasized into my lymph nodes and lost my girlfriend in the same day. I was living 2,000 miles away from my family who couldn't help me.

While this is not the same as the experiences in the topic starter, it does demonstrate an obstacle of a like intensity. It baffles me that you would project your lack of experience onto those who are participating in this topic.

Lastly, if you're not comfortable in this thread, don't visit or post here.

Well, I'm atheist and unreligious. I don't believe in the afterlife.

Though some may believe that, obviously his own personal beliefs were not of this. Perhaps he was only Christian because he was brought up that way, or because it's "good". Kids can't stop their parents from baptizing them. At a young age, if their parents tell them "God is real and you should worship him!", that's what they know. However, as they get older, they might use their minds differently and think otherwise, to their own personal self. To me, this man had a good mind. His religion obviously didn't dictate his morals, he did. No one else can tell you what your moral boundaries are but you. Jesus can't, your mom can't, your dad can't, etc. Only you can decide what's right for you. The fact that he was Christian should have nothing to do with this debate. You can't back up your opinions with that. "Oh, well, suicide is wrong in the eyes of Jesus, so it's always wrong." No. Why do you personally think it's wrong?

He was 85 years old for Pete's sake. He would have died of old age soon enough. If he thought to himself that he had no reason to live anymore and wanted to die, who are we to stop him? We can't stop anyone from committing suicide if they really, truly want to. You may try to stop your friends if you see them doing it or hear them talking about it, but if that's what they really want, no one can stop them.

Well, since the man is a Christian, and it would be a sin to suicide. The real question now is "Is commiting a Sin Justified"?

I dont think its right that he killed him. he could have moved close to his kids.