I don't agree that it is given that anyone would respond to his death the way he chose to when his family members died. We have freewill to choose how we feel about the circumstances of our lives.

Viktor Frankl was a survivor of the Holocaust and the Nazi death camps. When the war was over he founded a school of psychological thought called logotherapy. Briefly stated, he found that people can survive the most intense suffering and treatment if they realize that no matter what happens to them, they always remain able to choose how they feel about any given situation. People can always transend their circumstances and find meaning.

We are given freewill to choose how we live our lives. Given the fact the he killed himself demonstrates the ability to not only justify suicide, but also commit it. Commiting the act is the inherent justification.

Acutally, I have problems likewise to what happened to this fellow. Im pretty sure, everyone suffers loss and depression at some stage. I nearly killed someone with pot and felt so guilty I felt the need to die. In the most difficult and helpless times, someone saved me because they needed me in their life. Exactly what the point would be, is the old man's choice. He chose to end his life for what ever reason. What loss to him could be greater than his own life? But nevermind, it seems you've made up your mind already.

While I'm sorry for the suffering that you experienced, I don't quite understand your post. The losses that were greater than his own life are that of his son and wife. I don't see the parallel to your experience. There was no one that needed him; everyone who did was dead.

If you read the entire thread including the initial post, you would realize I haven't made up my mind.

It seems you're only thinking about how he feels. There are much more things in life to consider before ending it. Other people it will effect, for instance. From what you have said, he had other living relatives that cared to share their time with him, however, he rejected that offer and suicide was the last option he chose upon. Like him, suicide came into my mind quite often when I was younger and more ignorant. So what exactly is proven once you're dead? Narrow minded-ness that your depressive troubles is worth more than anyone else. Its a tragedy he died, but the act of suicide is simply murder.

How he felt is of critical importance. You even eluded to your feelings in your initial post. He did consider other things...he put his affairs in order and took his dog to the kennel.

He wasn't a young person like you were, he was 85 and rapidly losing his ability to care for himself. Why do you think he was trying to prove something? This was not a case of claiming "ownership" of his life or ultimate control. He wasn't proving anything in that sense.

This is the MSN Encarta definition of murder

crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law

I don't understand your use of the term.

it was a planned suicide? If he claimed all "control" over his life, i have to agree with your first post, he is selfish. What is the excuse of not being able to care for himself when others want to help him? There are people in this world who are born with disabilities, suffer from cancer and diseases who struggle to live, and if he is unable to see how lucky he is, its pretty sad. And if you re-read your definition of murder, in killing himself, he destroyed a life.

i use the logic that if i ever wanted to commit suicide, i feel that i should be allowed to.

thus, we shouldn't judge others, not knowing the full extent of their problems.

zepfel, if your best friend held a gun in his head moping in self-pity and wanted to shoot himself, Will you let him or stand there and feel sorry for his "problems"?

Maybe this is why suicide is such a large cause of death.

Suicide is such a terrible thing because it hurts others. If I had a son that shot himself to death, I would feel guilty for the rest of my life. I would keep thinking I'm a terrible mother. I wouldn't be able to live MY life the way I wanted to and I may even resort to drugs or alcohol to drown my sorrows. And eventually fall into depression and commit suicide myself. It's easy to think that it's their choice to commit suicide, but they don't know what kind of problems their close friends or relatives will have to go through. Maybe they weren't good enough friends to keep him alive. And that thought could linger over them the rest of their lives.

my best friend is dead.

no not really, but he certainly wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun!


anyhow, unlike the situation which you use, i'm thinking more from a euthanasia/planned suicide point of view. i doubt you could ever change anybody's reaction to the situation you present.

Damn, if only Minority Report is true.

But anyways..he was over-reacting. Seriously. Him shootinghimself is going to harm the other 2 kids lives, and just, seriously.


But then again most suicides are done because of the smallest things.

O.K. well, first..... him killing himself doesn't mean that suicide can be justified, his mind's twisted way of thinking put him in a state of despair and told him that suicide was the only option left, when it most obviously wasn't, he still had ppl who loved him, those grandsons (or w/e they were) loved him, Im sure he had friends.. suicide is never the only option. People have lived through much worse, without resorting to suicide in the end, what makes this man so special?

good idea.

we should make suicide illegal. and punishable by death.

whoopie!

or, because jesus christ wills it, we'll put everyone in a sustained coma so they can't commit suicide! hell yea!

Alright. I'll write my local congressman.

The act of suicide is the inherent justification. When making a decision about our individual lives, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. We need to be at peace in our own minds about our actions and decisions. Actually, his actions reflected a great deal of forethought and planning. He closed his son's affairs, put his dog in a kennel and completed his daily chores. If he was making a "twisted" decision, he would have done things in a more irrational manner.

It is obvious that suicide is not the only option. It was, on the other hand, the one he chose. What makes him "special" is his right to exercise his freewill.

Don't assume my comments are an endorsement of his actions.

O.K. so basically, you're saying, if I think it will be better for me to kill my neighbor, with a knife (just thought I'd add that ), because he's annoying me, or making me sad, that that justifies my actions. Wow, I've totally seen the light, thanks alot.

Whoops, double post, sorry.

why should others decide when i end my life?

it's my life. i should be able to decide exactly what i do with it (you know i don't mean murdering people here).

"f**k everyone who says they love me, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end my life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option." yet you say i should not be able to do this?
if i wanted to quit my job (i'm not supporting anyone with the job, just me) and live on a desert island alone and secluded from everybody else for the rest of my life, i wouldn't be stopped. why can't my lifestyle choice be not to have a lifestyle?

What are you talking about? The fact that he did it is the inhernt justification. That does not imply or suggest an endorsement of his action as I said before.

Well, you could say the same thing about murdering someone... "f**k everyone who says they love him, i don't care. i'm a rational person, and have come to the decision to end his life after weighing up the pros and cons. i have spent a substantial amount of time considering it, and feel it is the best option."



I didn't say it did, but what you ARE saying is that just because someone did something "inheritly justifies" it.

ive read and reread this post, but i cannot for the life of me work out how you came up with this. it makes ridiculously little sense, and i have no idea where it came from.

I agree.

I also think it's pretty messed up that the government takes money from you when you die. Damn those bastards.

Yes, it's clear that the commision of an act is an inherent justification. For the man that committed suicide that is obvious, otherwise he would have made a different choice. That does not suggest I am personaly condoning or condemning his action.

An external judgement by an outside observer is a different issue. This issue is not about murdering another person. It does involve the inherent right of an individual to determine how and when their own life should end.

i think after all that happened to him, he had the right to be selfish. he lost everything, everyone he cared about. he had no reason to stay alive.... maybe he wanted to be with his dead wife and son....is that really so selfish? to want to be with your loved ones again? i can honestly say that i would do the same thing.

but it's my life! you're missing the point here, i don't want to murder somebody, i want to take my own life! it's MINE. i want to die, i should be allowed to die.


hypothetically, of course.