Ask anyone who has this symbol, and they'll most likely tell you it has something to do with "southern pride." That is not a good enough reason for me.

I did however, grow up with a very biased outlook regarding the Civil War. In high school i was taught North - the good abolitioner guys....South - the bad slave owner guys. But upon entering college i realized that was not exactly the case at all.

Even-so I still agree the flag will NEVER be an acceptable symbol.....neither to Northerners, civil rights activists, or African-Americans. Sure, the flag no longer means the enforcement of slavery to most of the Southerners that associate with it, but some things will never change to those on the outside who view it.

The Swastika once stood for a symbol of peace. There was a movement in America where the Swastika was used and brought back to its original meaning - peace. But it soon became apparent that the world would forever associate Swastika's with the Nazis, and have absolutely nothing to do with peace from then on.

The Confederate flag falls into the same category. You can try to change its meaning, but outsiders will always view it as a sign of hatred and racism.

The Confederate flag has to go. There are many good qualities about the South, but there are other ways to glorify them than just this one. Its meaning has not and will not change: even if Southerners consider it to be just a symbol, it will never be "just a symbol."

the civil war wasnt just about slavery it was also about states rights and other important things

so what?.....and the Nazi revolution wasn't just about the Holocaust

and you completely disreguarded that guy's point anyway

The war and the flag had very little to do with slavery. Precious little. Lincoln (one of my least favorite politicians ever) only "freed the slaves" as a political move. Not to mention that he didn't actually free all of the slaves, only those in the Southern states. There were not as many slaves in the North (they used immigrants who they treated as slaves in their factories), but they were there, and they remained enslaved even longer than those in the South. The victors write the textbooks. Children are given such a biased view from the textbooks, which tells horrible stories of torture by the evil slave-owners in the demonic South, and of the wonderful freedom-fighting Northerners, none of whom are racist and all who are fighting for the freedom of their black brothers (no... it had nothing to do with the fact that the South was making nearly all of the money for the United States, and losing almost all of it to the North).

Actually, I know who could put it a lot better than I. Have any of you read Ann Coulter's "The Battle Flag"? She put it well.
Click the Link

Truthfully, I proably won't be visiting this thread again. Don't have the time or energy to debate with someone over the 'net. I find it fairly pointless. Nothing that is said would change my mind anyway. I hold my Lone Star flag, then the Stars and Stripes, then the Southern Cross in high honor and always will. Each means something specific and special, but each stands for the honorable men and women who died fighting for what they believe in.

You shouldn't have commented in the first place...that IS pointless.

General FYI, there is a difference in the ancient swastika and the germanic swastika, as I'm sure you know Miss XoJennaoX. But those who associate the ancient symbol with the germanic version are simply ignorant of how the degree of the lines differ. They are quite opposites if one pay attention to detail.

Again, to clear things up, the Nazi's swastika has never been a symbol of peace and never will be. There may have been a movement to bring back its "original meaning" but that's pure silliness; no doubt such movement stemmed from a zealous mass of uninformed indivs. The Nazi's swastika has ALWAYS stand as a symbol for the Nazis.

Yes i agree, but the germanic swastika was derived directly from the ancient symbol even though they have very different meanings.....therefore they are connected in a sense. And people...i guess the "ignorant" ones will always view it that way.
But again my point is not really what these symbols mean, but how others percieve it, that seems to be the real problem..... afterall they are the ones being affected. I don't think it is right to say "well i understand waving the confederate flag may make some people uneasy, but they are just ignorant to the fact of what it really means, i support it in a good way so who cares." That to me is ignorance in itself.

Not only different meanings, but different degree in lines. They're not the same, only similar. People need to know that though one may have inspired the other, they cannot put two and two together that way.

It's not sensical to use the swastika as an example for the problem with the confederate flag. The difference is vast. There are two swastikas, with completely different factual meanings, while there is only one flag that provokes different sentiments. Note that I said the meaning of the swastikas are factual and that the "meanings" of the flag are sentiments (not facts).

And as I've said many times before in this thread, the problem with the confederate flag is founded on the perception that it's racist. I choose to view it as a neccessity to history as it is how I perceive to recognize it. There is no right or wrong way to perceive the flag unless one is completely ignorant of what it once represented. I've find that I feel the same as those who choose to say that the flag represented southern pride, rebellion.

If anyone wish to say that the confederate flag represented slavery, then intellectually and logically, one might as well think that most flags in the world represent slavery as many countries, at one time or another, owned the problem of slavery as well. They all should be banned.

i have a swastika. it's on it's side, with the arms pointing correctly . it's no nazi swastika. but people still think it is.

Because people are uninformed and will stupidly remain to be so with pride.

Well maybe it wouldn't be perceived racist if ALL southerners understood it the way you do.

This is actually a bigger problem than just how the flag is percieved upon, it is how it is used. It does affect some people lives greatly, not to mention their careers. Have you ever seen a black nascar driver? It is almost obvious it is because of the confederate flag. Watch a race and you will see hundreds of confederate flags in the stands. This is considered almost like a threat, not by me, but it was stated directly from these potential driver's mouths (cnn headline news).

"How would you feel to see a confederate flag being honored at a KKK demonstration, and then the next day see fans at a nascar race flaunting them around."
I imagine that is not the best welcoming. Even if they represent two different meanings at the time, you cannot say it is not intimidating or any less hurtful.

I don't know much about NASCAR, but though there may not be a Black NASCAR driver, I know of Black NASCAR fans. If Blacks are letting that flag hinder them from being a NASCAR driver because they perceive it as racist, then they're letting racsim win the battle. If they become NASCAR drivers regardless of the flag, what will that flag do to them? Harm them in what way?

It's like the Vietnamese communist flag and the Nationalist flag. The Communist flag is used in Vietnam, though it may be hated, it doesn't stop Nationalist Vietnamnese from visiting their homeland. You will not find one Nationalist Vietnamese who will say "I refuse to return to my place of birth because of that stupid Communist flag".

Since it was pointless for you to even post this, I'm going to make use of my boredom and write a pointless response.

You do speak well and your response to this post is a credible one (sans the line about this being pointless) but, what nationality are you? I really hate to play the race card but you'd have to live on the "other side of the tracks" and understand what it's like being a minority living in south Texas amongst these "southern crosses." No, not everyone who waves this flag is a racist and thats more than evident with some of the people I know from school. But if you don't understand the gravity of your actions (sporting this flag) it sure as hell makes you ignorant.

What was that for, anyway? It was just a pointless response.

Now, without further ado, I'm attempting to resurrect the Black Panther Movement. As I do this, I'll need help from La Raza, Latin Kings, Folk Nation, Asian Crime Syndicates and my West Indian Brothers so we can form a society that is universal for our ethniticies. We'll shun other races and religions and hold true to our pride. As time passes and the meaning and intention of our organization and our symbol changes, we'll still wave our flag with pride ignoring the impact it has on others. Thats some ignorance for ya.

Pointless

^nice.

As long as the flag is still being used today as a rascist symbol (not by most, but by some) it will be perceived as a racist symbol.

After the war, the flag was adopted by the KKK and later by Racist Skinheads, The American Nazi Party, Aryan Nation and other hate groups. The confederate flag is an internationally recognized symbol of white supremacy, so as long as it continues to be used in this manner by hate groups, it will be perceived upon that way by others. Of course i agree it is not fair to those southerners who simply have it as a part of their heritage, pride, symbol of rebellion etc. But they are selfish for doing so in that case, not caring at all about the impact it has on others.

No 'honest to goodness' meaning, definition, historical lesson you adobt to descibe the confederate flag will make people understand it any different, because any fool can see that actions speak louder than words. Whenever I see a skinhead or kkk site, pamphlet, rally, etc. with the Confederate and Nazi flags together, I can't help but feel hurt...and i'm white and from the north, so i can only imagine how minorities must feel in the south.

Apparently, a few people really took my previous post to heart or at the very least, mind. I only wrote the truth and to those who don't agree or think that I am uneducated, you are very, very wrong. I took AP History in high school, read several books on American History, and have written tons of essays on the Civil War for various classes. I grew up (from the ages of 5-13) in the South. I've spent the past 5 years (ages 14-19) in the "nice" Yankee north.

Racism goes a lot deeper than a flag, a war, a song, a slur. Those are just outward symbols of racism. Racism is a tarnished belief system. An outdated outlook on life that is equal to believing that the Earth is flat. Black people are black because of many generations spent in the hottest, most arid, and sunny parts of the world. A lot of the worlds darker peoples come from countries closest to the equator. The further a peoples homeland was from the equator, the whiter their skin and their ancestors skin became. Dark skinned or "black" peoples don't just come from Africa and aren't necessarily descendants of African peoples. There are some Indian peoples (from India) whose skin is just as dark if not darker than some African americans. There are native people from all over the world who have dark skin.

America is not the only country where racism has roots. In India, dark skin is often a symbol of lower caste. It is also a stigma in many other Southeast Asian countries. In Austrailia, the Aboriginies might as well be dead for dark skin there is not a good thing to have.

Racism is racism, no matter what the symbols. The Civil War may have been about other things but SLAVERY was the primary cause. The north did keep some people of color enslaved. They still do today. People of any other color than white make up very little of the educated populace of the industrial and corporate worlds. Most minority youth are encouraged to either enter military or get bored by school and drop out or kicked out. Very few are encouraged to persue college and careers. People of color work in the factories, as domestic servants, on farms, and do many other "crap" jobs. I myself clean houses and baby-sit to make ends meet since my college funding fell through last fall.

No nation is perfect, but America could be a lot better if racism would just die. Minorities are fast becoming the majority and this minority will not be persuaded by this horrible system.

i really dont know; there are so many flags out there; can everyone of them be rated as being races?

er...heh, theyre not just taking a random flag and saying that its racist.
the confederate flag is specifically being discussed because there was slavery in the South (where the confederate flag was)...and the civil war occurred partly because of slavery...
therefore, some people think that the flag associates with slavery. and..slavery in teh US associates with blacks.
and thats where they get the racism part.
..i hope that made sense. o.o;;

random fact: did you know there were actually three flags in the CSA? and the most well known one (which is the one i think we're talking about) was actually a war flag...



they weren't slaves. they were people that worked for low wages. these immigrants didn't like slaves because slaves worked for free. (not willingly of course..)
the war had a lot to do with slavery. otherwise, why would lincoln use it as a political movement if it didn't have to do with slavery?



actually, people arent taught that North = freedom = great great great, hazzuh!
you mustve had one cynical teacher...
anyway, the North was racist. has anyone seen Glory? about the 54th regiment? i liek that movie...
anyway, there weren't that many black regiments because Northerners WERE racist. thats how segregation evolved.
and btw, most northerners weren't trying to get rid of slavery. there were few like that - abolitionists. the northerners were fighting against the expansion of slavery.

as for my opinion...hrrrm...i dunno. i guess im swayed by the majority of ppl that perceive the confederate flag as a racist symbol.

You're right. Any fool can see that actions speak louder than words. So when someone innocently flies the flag for the purpose of heritage/ancestry, they are still condemned and grouped together with KKK ans skin heads, why?


If those who wish to fly the flag for purposes other than hate and racism are selfish because they don't take into consideration of how such action affect others, then others are just as selfish because they don't take into consideration that their singlemindedness is ruining another person's chance of upholding heritage.
Works both ways, I think.

People will revere it because it is hateful, and there are those who will revere it because it is heritage. Hate is wrong, heritage shouldn't be. Of course, the problem is distinguishing the two.

Huzzah, uninspiredfae!

You can't claim that the meaning of symbols used by minorities is representative of the meaning of symbols used by the majority. Okay, so some bigots have used a Confederate flag as a symbol of their prejudices. (Racism is the belief that inherent racial characteristics indicate the racial superiority of ONE particular race. IE Hitler was a racist. Bigots are convinced of their own prejudiced notions, IE Hispanics are this way, blacks are that way; and most people our society considers bigoted are misnamed 'racist', as my husband is fond of pointing out.) You can't say that flag is primarily the symbol of bigots. I would imagine there are more Texas, Alabama, Virginia, Mississippi, etc. housewives and general citizens *from the South* who merely feel that it symbolizes their heritage of hailing from the South and not a symbol of the merits of slavery.

Some of you need to stop mechanically 'uh-huhing' what your history teachers tell you. History textbook companies must bow to the pressure of political correctness as opposed to the purported primary concern of historical accuracy. Stop blindly accepting what your classroom textbooks (purchased by the government!) tell you and research it on your own. Funny how we condemn the indoctrination of Chinese youth by China's government then act like it's our government's *responsibility* to educate our youth. "Please, indoctrinate my child! I hate the way you tax me, spend my money blah blah blah, but I want you to teach my child." Does this make sense? No.

Slavery was not the primary reason for the war and Lincoln didn't care about the slaves. He brought slavery into the war because he was afraid Europe would aid the South in order to continue getting cotton at good prices, yet most of Europe, if not all, had already abandoned slavery. AND, the North is NOT less biased against blacks/slavery just because it was already outlawed there. Having already industrialized (cities are much closer in the North, facilitating mass transit *trains*, which facilitated industrialization) they needed slightly more skilled workers instead of basic manual labor. Workers are expensive to train, therefore they used low-paid, over-worked immigrants, on whom they looked down as much as or more than blacks. Slavery isn't the only manifestation of bigotry.

So, while I understand a Confedarate flag is offensive to some people, as a southerner, it is part of my heritage. I personally think states' rights ought to supersede the federal government's authority, and to me, that flag is a symbol of that struggle, that of the states against the federal government, that of the individual's right against big government, not slavery. I read somewhere that if you are offended by something, it's your problem, not the person giving offense. As I am aware that that flag is offensive to some people so I don't wave it around, but I respect it and I won't deny *that* just because some people (mostly ignorant ones) are offended by it.

Here's a parting shot. When you say 'southerners', you should be aware that MANY black people live in the south. Isn't it a bigoted idea to consider them separately? I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to say 'blah blah blah 'southerners', oh yeah, but not the black people living in the south'. So, what are they? Blacks? Why separate them out by color? That sounds bigoted to me. They are southerners as much as I am. If southern blacks care enough about issues like the Georgia state flag, they will get out and vote. (If the Georgia legislature will LET its people decide, which they didn't, they did a referendum in the congress).

slavery played a bigger part than you made out:

i'm not too sure about the cotton thing. britian had it's own cotton stockpile already, and simply didn't want to support a losing side. same goes for france.

northerners WERE more against slavery. they didn't think much of blacks, but they thought less of slavery. (don't count border states)


anyways; are you sure of your heritage? what many people claim is the confederate flag is actually the confederat battle flag.

the confederate flag:

[img]http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Flags/Starsnbars%5B1%5D.png[/img]

battle flag:



so, which one are you flying?

most people are flying a rectangular version of the battle flag (see below)

anyone flying the rectangular battle flag while claiming that it's the confederate flag and citing heratige has no idea of thier heritage. a rectangular confederate battle flag is just plain WRONG> it has been used to symbolize slavery and discrimination after the war.

the square flag, however, can symbolize the military rebelion of the southern states against thier brothers.

however; the real flag to fly for heratige is the stars and bars. that's the historical flag.

( the rectangular flag:



this is called by many ignorant people 'the rebel flag'.

however; it was only used on a few confederate ships and some tennesee regiments, and was called the navy jack. )

very few southerners claiming the flag as heretage actually know thier heretage.

As I mentioned, I am not 'flying' a Confederate flag. I would say waving encompasses 'flying'. In fact, as a military spouse, I put out the Stars and Stripes with pleasure when I do fly a flag. And I take it down out of the rain, and at night. Any flag used by the South during the War Between the States, logically, can be deemed a Confederate flag. I respect the ideal of states' rights, and to me that is what a Confederate flag represents.

The bottom line for me is:
I am a southerner, I do not support bigotry or racism in any form and to me 'a' Confederate flag represents states' rights, and beyond that, individuals' rights and I will continue to see it as such. If other people, whether ignorant or in simple disagreement, dislike that, then fine, that's their opinion, but I will still retain my opinion.

I don't think it's right to flaunt your opinions simply to infuriate or offend others, but neither do I think I should have to disown my opinions simply because other people may feel offended by them.

i could very well put swastikas everywhere. they're a religious symbol of both the greeks and buddhists, maybe more. but it doesn't matter anymore. everyone thinks it's a nazi symbol.

i take it from the defensive stance you took that "any flag used by the south during the war between the states, logically, can be deemed a confederate flag", that you believed the navy jack was in fact the confederate flag?

please explain what states rights means to you. you'll find that using the confederate flag to symbolize states rights isn't much bettter.

do you think my painting swastikas all over the place is ok? it's like paint crosses all over the place.

regardless of what YOU think the flag symbolizes, it has been used by racists in the past, and will continue to be used by racists now.

and that is what the confederate flag will symbolize to the world, just as the swastika symbolizes the nazis.

Mr. Acid, it is so funny that you mention swastikas (repeatedly).

I live in Korea, and they are everywhere. And no, they aren't offensive to me. I, unlike many Americans, know that there are two main types, and do not fall into the ignorant masses, at least on this subject.

And however you may want to construe me as ignorant, I stand by the statement that whatever flag the southern states, that is, any of the members of the loose confederation known as the Confederacy, used (of course, that would put the dates roughly between 1861 and 1865) IS logically a Confederate flag, be it a battle flag, a simple state flag, or a navy flag. An aside here, NOTE my use of the indefinite article 'A', not 'THE'. Thank you.

I would still say that the main reason many states seceded was in protestation of the federal government (ie, all the other states) trying to tell them what they can and can't do. A state government is a lot closer to individual rights than a national government, and unlike the socialist-bent society we live in, I tend way more towards a capitalist free enterprise point of view, to which individual rights are essential.

Do you watch Korean dramas?

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