you can't have it both ways! Options

[Spirited Away]

A non-Christian entrepreneur who wants to profit, at the expense of the Christians. By associating Christmas with things have nothing to do with Christmas warps the meaning of Christmas. It's none of my business how people celebrate on December 25, but if they celebrate a pagan holiday under the guise of Christmas, then there is a problem.
I don't think I can get it copyrighted.

Well, you know what? This is a koinkidink, there was something akin to this in the news a couple of weeks ago.

Schools observe Christian holidays but not Muslim, Jewish, Hindu... etc holidays. Test won't be given on Christian holidays (mostly because we're off school), yet it is not taken into consideration that exams are given during the holidays of other religions. So, Christians get a perk at the "expense" of other religions. I don't think that's fair either, but it seems that's the way this society works, right? Winners and losers. You can't win all the time.

And do you know why it would be almost impossible for you to get it copyrighted?

Where do you get this? I never knew that Christmas was to be celebrated in solemn silence...

Open any encyclopedia and read about Christmas. Most likely the source will say something along the lines of: "during early times this day was not one of the feasts of the Christian Church. In fact, Church leaders thought the celebration of birthdays to be a heathen custom. It is believed that Christmas was not celebrated until some 300 years after the birth of Christ" (The New Book of Knowledge. Volume 3 C. Pg 290). Or maybe you would like a more trustworthy source? How about the History Channel:
"In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. "

There ya go. As for "solemn silence", it depends on which source you read from... I'll let you know once I find it again.

Anyway, all of that changed because Christians wanted conversions.

It's so funny, but I told a Christian kid (15-17 years old or so) that Dec. 25th was originally a Pagan holiday to help him with the prompt... Hmm, I forgot what it was exactly. Anyway, he called me stupid and all sorts of names and even told on me to the supervisor saying that I offended him. He rather believe what he was taught in Church than to find out things on his own. I wasn't mad nor did I held it against him, I was just amused.

[sadolakced acid]

Kryo, you can speak out.

celebrate jesus's birth sometime in septmeber- just pick a day and stick with it.

it will be more accurate than december 26, that's for sure.


and maybe you could get your church to hold christmas mass then, and to have everyone not give gifts, carol, or anything else.

just go to church and be closer with god.

and because we're nice, use non-christans will still let you celebrate our holiday on december 26th.

[Aesirus]

A Christmas Carol
by Tom Lehrer

Christmas time is here, by golly,
Disapproval would be folly,
Deck the halls with hunks of holly,
Fill the cup and don’t say when.
Kill the turkeys, ducks and chickens,
Mix the punch, drag out the dickens,
Even though the prospect sickens,
Brother, here we go again.

On christmas day you can’t get sore,
Your fellow man you must adore,
There’s time to rob him all the more
The other three hundred and sixty-four.

Relations, sparing no expense’ll
Send some useless old utensil,
Or a matching pen and pencil.
Just the thing I need! how nice!
It doesn’t matter how sincere it
Is, nor how heartfelt the spirit,
Sentiment will not endear it,
What’s important is the price.

Hark the herald tribune sings,
Advertising wondrous things.
God rest ye merry, merchants,
May you make the yuletide pay.
Angels we have heard on high
Tell us to go out and buy!

So let the raucous sleigh bells jingle,
Hail our dear old friend kris kringle,
Driving his reindeer across the sky.
Don’t stand underneath when they fly by!

[Nashvixen]

Ah, good old WWJD.
However, I believe you are interperetting this incorrectly. Jesus accepted anyone that wanted to hear his message. If someone was corrupting it, he would not be happy. Take Mark 11:15.
The money changers had turned his temple into a den of thieves, so Jesus drove them away.
I do not want Jesus' birth to be dominated by commercialized trash, therefore I am speaking out.

It has been proven that one can interpret the Bible to say many things. someone who looks for an excuse to do something can take a specific verse into consideration for their own purposes. so if a non-christian friend of yours (and christians are supposed to at least talk to non-christians to spread the word) wanted to see how you celebrated your "winter holidays", you'd turn them away because they aren't christians? promoting christmas with non-christians isn't a sin. i beg to differ, but i don't see how I'm interpretting my example incorrectly. I don't see how anyone is necessarily "corrupting" christmas, either.

Kryo, you can speak out. 
celebrate jesus's birth sometime in septmeber- just pick a day and stick with it. 
it will be more accurate than december 26, that's for sure.
and maybe you could get your church to hold christmas mass then, and to have everyone not give gifts, carol, or anything else.
just go to church and be closer with god.
and because we're nice, use non-christans will still let you celebrate our holiday on december 26th.

In addition to this, kryogenix, it is true (proven in fact) that jesus wasn't born in December (that's 25th, sadolakced acid). plus, we don't get good friday or passover off for others or ourselves (wherever one may fall on this subject) unless permitted to. So let's defend that one if we defend this one.

[sadolakced acid]

ahh, but the 26th! full of the joy of having new presents! the day after christmas- what fun!

haha... my mistake. oh well you get the point...

[chinesekimchi]

I think Happy Holidays because some ppl dont celebrate Christmas

[jue]

i say "happy holidays" because theres differnet holidays that different people celebrate around that time. Saying happy holidays includes ALL the holidays that everyone celebrates round htat that of year. but jsut saying Merry Christmas is different. It only goes out to one group of people.

[sammi rules you]

first of all -
channukah.
hannukah.
those are the main two spellings. learn them.

and second -
it doesn't really matter. i don't get why people make such a big fuss about a stupid phrase and people can die and they won't even turn their heads. our world disgusts me.

[b0st0ngrl]

at mass last night, the priest was talking about merry christmas as opposed to merry christmas during the holidays.

what theyre doing, that was originally written about, is ridiculous

basically, ignoring the prompt, "happy holidays" has become a way for people to generalize without offending anyone. thats not always good though. whatever happened to our diversity? by having to dodge your real beliefs to protect others', but perhaps it would be better if we didnt. why should we be so general? im christian, so while im obviously not offended by "merry christmas", im not going to be offended by "happy hanukkah" either, whether that be the dominant religion or not. theres a difference between acknowlaging and forcing others to believe what you do. reminding people that you celebrate christmas and they dont could not only get obnoxious, but be offensive, but telling someone merry christmas in a friendly way should not. people these days are so stupid. stop suing over everything and work out your own damn problems.

^You may not be offended but when I leave department stores and the people go "Meryy Christmas!" then I feel like she is being ignorant and she should know that not everyone celebrates Christmas.

And if we're going to say Happy Holidays then what about the people who don't celebrate anything?

[fameONE]

The Christmas tree is a pagan fertility symbol. Let's have sex every day of the season and be merry.

[*xcaitlinx*]

saying "Happy Holidays" is simply politicially correct, therefore i feel no need to say it. As long as the person knows that you're not saying it to offend their religion, then it's ok.

[madchenallein]

Wow. I have actually read, or skimmed every page in this thread. First I'll say I am NO expert, lol.

Here's my opinion. I think you can have it both ways. I think the spirit of Christmas is Christ. I am a Catholic Christian and I think that for Christians who celebrate Christmas, it's important to make the faith aspect of the holy day the central theme. I think nonChristians who choose to celebrate Christmas ought to be able to do it in any they please. The best witness of a Christian (of any devout variety) is to be welcoming, tolerant, and loving; an ambassador of Christ to nonChristians and that day, Christmas, is as good a day as any to do so.

Having weighed in on the topic of the post now, I feel free to expound on a few points that were mentioned throughout the entire thread. First, let me give 'props' to Mr. Acid (though I don't agree with him in his views), his arguments are generally well thought out and that is a must for 'debate'. And 'props' to U.I.Fae. for the excellent grasp of history.

-Santa Claus, from Sinter Klaas, I think Dutch or Swedish, one of the Scandinavian countries' origins. This character has morphed into unrecognizability from its former identity.

-The Church, which for MOST, not all, but most of the western world, was the only church until the Protestant Reformation, has always moved feast days. It continues to do so. I don't think it's that important to celebrate something on the anniversary of it actually happening. I think it's more important, with respect to faith, to celebrate an event or person by meditating on how they exemplified (for simplicity's sake I'll use the Christian faith) Christ in their lives and teachings. Or how Christ handled situations.

-I don't care for the commercialization of Christmas and I think UIFae has that topic pretty much nailed. This isn't to say I don't give gifts, I do. And I accept them. However, I attend Christmas Vigil Mass and Christmas Mass, I mean, after all, it is Christ's Mass.

I don't think Protestants observe Advent as assiduously as Catholics, which I am NOT saying is a bad thing, I am just saying it. However, for me as a Christian, it is a very important time leading UP TO Christmas and Epiphany that allows me to more deeply appreciate the purpose of remembering Christ's birth.

-In this thread there have been some (off topic admittedly ) very inaccurate statements about the Catholic faith. I am not saying only Catholics are right, nor am I saying Catholics are the best. I should mention I was raised a devout Protestant, became an anxious then apathetic agnostic and have since become a quietly constantly seeking (born again) Roman Catholic. I would just like to throw in my loose change. Catholics are Christians. Not all Christians are Catholic. Protestants (Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.) have their 'born again' experience which is more of an epiphany type moment when they realize they need Christ in their lives or when they 'hear' the Holy Spirit call to them. Catholics' experience is more structuralized, but it is essentially the same, and that moment is NOT baptism, as many Protestants think, but CONFIRMATION. Confirmation is when a person has learned about what the Catholic faith involves and has decided to admit they are sinners in need of salvation and to allow Christ to direct their lives. Essentially the same destination as Protestants, just a slightly different route.

Now, for the last thing I'd like to address, is the whole "I hate when Christians act and say they are superior to nonChristians, etc." I agree, I don't like that either. However, this is one small thing I have learned in my so far short life journey: if you allow other people to influence your beliefs about politics, religion, life, etc. you will be a confused, unhappy person. You have to go to the source and not let bad examples spoil your quest for the truth. Now, before anyone says 'But Christians are supposed to be living their faith, be examples...' yes I agree, but most of them don't, that doesn't mean that Christ is not the answer, it means they have sin living in their hearts because they are nourishing it.

As far as the Bible saying the only way to heaven is through Christ Jesus, I believe that. However, while I believe that Christianity, and at that Roman Catholicism, is the path for me, I acknowledge that my God is an all powerful God with a love for each person on earth. You may not love God, but He loves you, and I believe He is powerful enough to make it so that those who honestly seek the love of the Creator to the best of their understanding will find Him. I don't know how it works, but I consider myself bound by the tenets of the Bible and accountable to God and I'm aware that if I call myself a Christian, I need to manifest that in my behavior.

Anyway, peace to all.

[sadolakced acid]

something happened here...

i think that the happy holidays thread and the you can't have it both ways thread had a crash collision...

or something of the sort...

and on both matters:

get over it. we're not forcing you to celebrate christmas the way we do, or for the reasons we do. we're not forcing you to say happy holidays. we're not forcing our ideals on anyone else. we're just celebrating our comercialized christmas and politely noting that other people may not celebrate christmas, as well as with two words wishing someone to have a happy new year too.

(we= people who use happy holidays and celebrate christmas as a season of giving) (you= people who think other people shouldn't use happy holidays and celebrate christmas as a season of giving)

[Spirited Away]

yea, I merged them together. they're similar.

[not_for_anything]

seeing as "christmas" isnt in the bible, plus it was proven that christ was born sometime in the fall, anyone can celebrate, it was catholic originally so anybody who isnt catholic and complainging is being a "copycat" too

[LOVE machine x]

yes its fair.. tats why theres two different stories about xmas
1. fat man put stuff down your chimney
2. kid was born in a barn

so... you dont have to believe the seconed one to celebrate it.

[*kryogenix*]

It has been proven that one can interpret the Bible to say many things. someone who looks for an excuse to do something can take a specific verse into consideration for their own purposes. so if a non-christian friend of yours (and christians are supposed to at least talk to non-christians to spread the word) wanted to see how you celebrated your "winter holidays", you'd turn them away because they aren't christians? promoting christmas with non-christians isn't a sin. i beg to differ, but i don't see how I'm interpretting my example incorrectly. I don't see how anyone is necessarily "corrupting" christmas, either.

Again, I'll say that I'm all for non-Christians celebrating Christmas. The thing is, I want them to celebrate Christmas for what it is, not for what stores want it to be.

In addition to this, kryogenix, it is true (proven in fact) that jesus wasn't born in December (that's 25th, sadolakced acid).  plus, we don't get good friday or passover off for others or ourselves (wherever one may fall on this subject) unless permitted to. So let's defend that one if we defend this one.

HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO TELL ME THIS? I KNOW!

I said many times, it doesn't matter. The point of the holiday is to celebrate his birth, the date is not significant, only the occasion.

I will be back.

[Spirited Away]

Again, I'll say that I'm all for non-Christians celebrating Christmas. The thing is, I want them to celebrate Christmas for what it is, not for what stores want it to be.

What about non-Christians celebrating the Winter Holidays. You know, giving gifts, being merry, and getting drunk? The pagan tradition? The ORIGINAL tradition that the Church adopted YEARS after the birth of Christ? That shouldn't be a problem right?

[sadolakced acid]

you celebrate jesus'sbirth by going to christmas mass.

you celebrate a season of giving by giving gifts, having a christmas tree, and all those christmas traditions.

[gotblog4me?]

Ya, it haas become a national holiday, but I still think its retarded, b/c if ur not christian, then why are u celebrating CHRIST-mas? it doesnt make sense at all.

<edit> but the only reason that that season is a season of giving is because its the day that Christ gave himself to us.

[Spirited Away]

it doesnt make sense at all.

<edit> but the only reason that that season is a season of giving is because its the day that Christ gave himself to us.

It will make sense to you once you've read the whole thread.

It's the season of giving to the rest of us because it's a Pagan tradition.

[WickedDreamer]

Well, I'm quite certain someone has said this by now, but... we don't get gifts because Jesus was born. In fact, I'm quite certain the whole Christmas tree thing is a German thing. I'm sooo iffy on this, if someone could correct my facts that would be great!

[Paradox of Life]

Well, I'm quite certain someone has said this by now, but... we don't get gifts because Jesus was born. In fact, I'm quite certain the whole Christmas tree thing is a German thing. I'm sooo iffy on this, if someone could correct my facts that would be great!

What was the origin of the Christmas tree? As much as I would like to embrace as fact the oft-quoted story that Martin Luther was the first to set up a Christmas tree (or at least a lighted one), I cannot -- for the story is pure legend. Many years of intensive Luther scholarship has turned up nothing to support it. There is scholarly consensus, however, that the Christmas tree originated in Germany. Indeed, the earliest record of an evergreen tree being used and decorated (but without lights) for Christmas is 1521 in the German region of Alsace.

Got this information from: http://www.reelyredd.com/originchristmastree.htm

But being German doesn't mean you're not Christian. I celebrate Christmas not because of Jesus's birth but just because it's that time of year. You know how big a deal they make Christmas around that time whether you're Christian or not, so why not participate? There's nothing wrong with giving and getting and visiting your relatives and having a nice holiday, is there?

[chinesekimchi]

I agree. I`m not Christian but to me there is a Jesus and I highly respect that.

[ghetosmurph]

so santa claus and the easter bunny have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with jesus? no.

i selebrate the visit from santa, not the birth of christ.

Easter bunny I don't know, but santa yes..... St. Nicholas, the real santa clause, was a devout catholic, a bishop in the catholic church, was extreemly rich after his arents died and he used that money to help others, however he did it in secret in the mddle of the night because he wanted not credit, (he messed up a couple of time which is why we know he did this) , he was locked up in jail because of the persecution of the christians, he was later released, once released he continued his generosity and giving to others in need, after his death, it became almost a tradition to the people in that area to sneak around and give other people gifts or things they needed <u>on christmas</u>.... the tradition continued to spread. The name Santa Clause, comes from the belgian childerns slang for the translation of St. Nick.... over the years the fokelore and red hat and everything else has been added on to create the image we have today..... so yes Santa dose have something to do with Jesus....

heres a link to more info about it....

http://www.christmas.com/pe/1978