Affirmative Action, i had to Options

[onenonly101]

Affirmative Action helps Asians.Asians benefit in many ways from affirmative action by making use of services provided by programs such as the Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound, and so on.

Affirmative action is not discrimination, so therefore it is not racism

the blacks, hispanics, and other minoritys are too dumb to get into college and get jobs on thier own?

is that what you're saying?

Ok I am going to repeat myself.Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in.

Also why is it that you only say minorities, don't you understand that it is also for disabled people, veterans, and women. Address that. How is affirmative action racist against women,veteran, and disabled people?

[sadolakced acid]

DO I HAVE TO SCREAM IT?!?! AFFIRMATIVE ACTION DOES NOTHING FOR ASIANS AND WHITES.

[onenonly101]

do i have to scream AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NOT DISCRIMINATION OR RACISM, WHY? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ONLY DEAL WITH RACE. You cannot speak those words for the entire program. ALSO Affirmative Action programs like Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound HELP Asians Americans so...............

[Spirited Away]

<-- Agree that Affirmative Action is helpful to minorities in general (though it is more beneficial to some groups than other groups), however, how long will it take for equality in the job market? Will we always need Affirmative Action to get hired?

To me, Affirmative Action is almost something like a leverage, having a handicap over the majority. When I play games, I don't want to have a handicap, I want to win the game fair and square; no cheating, no helping out, no handicap.

Affirmative Action is a double edged sword. It's telling minorities that they're no good without Affirmative Action, and that minorities do not have to try as hard as the caucasians to get the same job that a caucasian would have to work their butt off. (Though I'm sure the reverse is true without such handicap as racism and discrimination runs rampant in the hearts of people).

It's true that Affirmative Action does somewhat 'equalize' the races in society, but too much of it imbalances this 'equation'.

[ComradeRed]

Affirmative Action helps Asians.Asians benefit in many ways from affirmative action by making use of services provided by programs such as the Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound, and so on.

Statistics prove otherwise. At U-Cal Berkeley before the end of affiramtivve action, the average entering Asian had to score a 1254 on the SATs, compared to 956 for blacks and 1232 for whites. Asians are hurt THE MOST.

Affirmative action is not discrimination, so therefore it is not racism

The one thing I can't stand is misusing the english language. Let's see:

The American Heritage Dictionary defines discrimination as: "1. The act of discriminating. 2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment. 3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners."

Said dictionary says discriminate means: "1a. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available. b. To make sensible decisions; judge wisely."

College admissions process are inherently discriminatory-- they discriminate qualified and unqualified people. Even if you argue that affirmative action is good discrimination, it is nonetheless undeniable that it involves judging on race, and is therefore discrimination.

Ok I am going to repeat myself.Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in.

This is true for some private universities like Bob Jones University (www.bju.edu). But if you're black, would you really WANT to go to BJU?

Your argument is soundly disproven by solid facts. In colleges with affirmative action, the average entering white or Asian freshman has an SAT score 300 to 400 points higher than the average black entering freshman. In otherwords, they are held to a significantly higher standard. In colleges without affirmative action, namely the California Public Universities, the average SATs are about the same.

Also why is it that you only say minorities, don't you understand that it is also for disabled people, veterans, and women. Address that. How is affirmative action racist against women,veteran, and disabled people?

It's not. It's non-racially discriminatory.

[sadolakced acid]

we don't need affirmative action. we need something called equal opportunity. not affirmative action.

if i am not confused, affirmative action hold certain minorities to lower standards, claiming they need it.

equal opportunity is making the decision to hire someone or accept someone to a university blind to race.

[ComradeRed]

We need to follow the Constitution... The Fourteenth Amendment forces all state governments and the federal government to NOT look at race at all when making decisions... The First Amendment (Right to Assembly/Association) guarantees that PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS have the right to decide their own racial policies... be it equal opportunity, affirmative action, quotas, or white supremacy.

[onenonly101]

....

[ComradeRed]

The Constitution is a lot like wearing your seat belt in Pennsylvania: It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

The point is, as much as you hate bigots, it is fundamentally WRONG to force people to associate with people they don't want to associate with. If I don't want to be your friend because you're black, I might be a misguided racist, but I am perfectly within my rights.

Similarly, if I OWN a property -- say a house -- I have an Associative Right to let who I want on my property -- and to not let those I don't want on my property -- for whatever reason I choose -- after all it is MY property...

The first amendment guarantees the right to assembly (which is synonmous to the right of association). For this reason, private organizations have the Constitutional right to discriminate based on whatever criteria they so choose -- and in whatever way they so choose. They are called property RIGHTS for a reason, after all.

I don't care if Harvard or Yale or Penn use affirmative action, and in fact I defend their right to do so. To my knowledge, they do. This hurts me, but they are within their rights. It is when something like PSU uses affirmative action -- thus using my tax dollars to fund illegal racism -- that the government has outstepped its rights.

[xquizit]

Ok I am going to repeat myself.Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in.

Precisely. Unfortunately, I think this country needs to resort to affirmative action because as she said, there are many racists who are not willing to hire or accept someone of minority to college unless they are forced.

I understand everyone's arguments and how it should be "fair" or equal opportunity for everyone. But discrimination does exist in the college admissions process and employment hiring practices. This is the only way they can think of thus far to promote diversity in college institutions and workplaces.

Also, keep in mind that society has been unfair to minorities for centuries. Affirmative action can help repay the wrongs that have been done to minorities in the past.

-edit-
I revised the following sentence.

But racism does exist in the college admissions process and employment hiring practices.

I meant to say discrimination. My bad.

[ComradeRed]

Do you have any PROOF that racism exists in public employment? No.

As in, can you prove that, with all else being equal (SAT scores, grades, etc.) and no affirmative action, a black person is more likely to be rejected than a white person at the same public institution? No.

There is nohting more tragic than seeing a beautiful young theory massacred by a gang of brutal facts. Take for example, before ending affirmative action:

Average SAT score for an Asian studnet at UC Berkeley (in 1993): 1254
Average SAT score for a white Student at UC Berkeley in 1993: 1232
Average SAT score for a black student at UC Berkeley in 1993: 952

My statistics come from the Hoover Institution's Scholar Thomas Sowell. The fact is affirmative action held black students to a standard THREE HUNDRED SAT points lower (let's put this into perspective: a black student with a good but not excellent score of 1300 is more competitive than a white student with a perfect score), proving that the only racial discrimination here is against white and Asian students.

California abolished affirmative action in Proposition 209. Following its passage, the average SAT scores among all races were within twenty points of each other -- something easily attributed to statistical variation. This proves that there was in fact NO MEASURABLE RACISM in the University of California admissions process without affirmative action. The only colleges in the country that are racist without affirmative action are places like Bob Jones University, which are private institutions recieving no public money, that have a LEGAL RIGHT to discriminate (upheld by the South Carolina, and later United States Supreme Court), and where no black person would EVER WANT TO GO.

Moreover, it is not enough to show that blacks are "underrepresented". That does NOT prove that the college admissions process itself is racist. If blacks overall have lower achievement rankings, it is logical to assume that they will be underrepresented. This proves that there are UNDERLYING CAUSES, such as socioeconomic differences, fradulent primary education, etc. This does NOT prove that there is racism. I agree that we should deal with root causes of racial inequality, but the fact remains that the root causes do NOT LIE IN RACE ITSELF. Affirmative action will NOT solve them. Affirmative action will just piss more reasonable moderates off, violate civil liberties, and achieve NOTHING.

In fact, affirmative action HURTS blacks as well. By moving underprepared black students into colleges that are academic mismatches, they are harmed. Before California ended affirmative action, black students had a 70% dropout rate at Berkeley and a 75% dropout rate at San Jose University. The black students that should have went to San Jose University and went on to lead successful lives, were recruited to Berkeley by affirmative action where they were turned into artificial failures. It's certainly better to graduate from one's second choice than to flunk out at one's first choice. Affirmative action clearly disregards the needs of over two-thirds of black students so that colleges can create a facade of classroom asthetic. The only people who benefit from affirmative action are a small minority of minority students, but mostly the government and public school system itself, which can use affirmative action as an excuse to continue to expand its powers, most of which are already of dubious legality.

Walter E. Williams, a distinguished black professor from George Mason University: http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj17n1-1.html

Excluding affirmative action, there is no racism in public collegiate admissions.

[bigpoppaproppy]

affirmitive action is bullshit

how can you cure racism WITH reverse racism

PERFECT EXAMPLE:

I am a firefighter. Say we're bringing new people on. 2 people apply for a spot on MY crew. A white and a minority. The white scores HIGHER on all tests, yet the minority is hired b/c of AA

so now I have a guy on MY line, who I have to trust with my LIFE, backing me up in a burning house, who i KNOW is LESS qualified then someone else, but got the job b/c of the color of their skin

^^^ PLEASE explain how that is fair

[sadolakced acid]

nice.

[rnrn897]

hm.. i read the replies but im still a bit unsure wut affirmitive action is..
explain, som1? :]

[onenonly101]

affirmitive action is bullshit

how can you cure racism WITH reverse racism

PERFECT EXAMPLE:

I am a firefighter. Say we're bringing new people on. 2 people apply for a spot on MY crew. A white and a minority. The white scores HIGHER on all tests, yet the minority is hired b/c of AA

so now I have a guy on MY line, who I have to trust with my LIFE, backing me up in a burning house, who i KNOW is LESS qualified then someone else, but got the job b/c of the color of their skin

^^^ PLEASE explain how that is fair

and yeah that5 wouldn't be considered racism

[ComradeRed]

Why not?

Racism, by definition, is valuing race as a quality... it never specifies how. Affirmative action is definitionally racist... you can't argue that it's not without changing the English language. The only thing you can argue is whether it is GOOD racism or BAD racism.

[bigpoppaproppy]

and yeah that5 wouldn't be considered racism

and how not
they passed on a white guy bc of the color of his skin

1) its racism. people dont like to say it is, but it is. What would happen if they had passed on a black man who scored better to pick a white guy? gee, jesse jackson and his brainwashed army would be all over it
2) its wrong

[sadolakced acid]

AA if quite racist. it uses to race to determine if people get jobs, or get into college.

i belive onenonly101 is either in denial or ignoring all the evidence.

all i know is i'm applying for college as a mexican.
or going to a california university.

[EmeraldKnight]

AA if quite racist. it uses to race to determine if people get jobs, or get into college.

i belive onenonly101 is either in denial or ignoring all the evidence.

all i know is i'm applying for college as a mexican.
or going to a california university.

You say its racist yet you still utilize it to your advantage.. so you have no problem with its racist aspects?

[sadolakced acid]

they're not going to get rid of it, even after all the media and stuff.

so why not use it to my advantage?

[ComradeRed]

Because it's totally sleazy. You can, if you want. Just know that you are contributing to the system. What if white people said: "We aren't going to end racism no matter what we do, so why not take advantage of it?" Affirmative action would be the least of the worries that minorities have today.

I know I complain a lot about how we aren't living up to American ideals... but in the end, you can't blame hte government, or big business, or anything... you have to blame the people: let's face it, we just don't have integrity any more.

[sadolakced acid]

and so it shows.

everyone agrees it would be wrong for me to register as a different race to get AA points.

but then why is it right for people to get AA points for race anyways?

[onenonly101]

^ you are a big hypocrite, if you are against it don't use it.
I'm not against it so there fore i will use it. i am going to fill out those college applications saying that i am a Nigerian American female, and won't have any shame doing it because shoot it is helping me.

Affirmative action isn't racist because it isn't saying that one race is superior to any other. Also like i said before it is not just about race so therefore you cannot say affirmative action is racist

I'm not in denial because have read up on what i am saying. I haven't cared for what you have said because you have incorperated your own opinion into it without knowing what it is fully. I have read the basis of Affirmative Action and concluded what i have from that

[bigpoppaproppy]

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


unless you are re-writing the dictionary anytime soon , see #2. Thats exactly what AA does, it prejudices a favoritisim towards minorities. The first half of number one is true also. If AA didnt believe race accounted for difference in ability, there would be no need for it in the first place.

Also, please answer my FF example above. Id love to hear your thoughts into the fairness of that.

[onenonly101]

No not if i do not beleive it is discriminatory. and ya'll keep forgeting the enitre program of Affirmative Action cannot be racist seeing as it does not only pertain to race