Affirmative Action, i had to Options

[onenonly101]

Should Affirmative Action be outlawed?

I want to hear what others say before I comment

[ComradeRed]

Should Affirmative Action be outlawed?

I want to hear what others say before I comment

Here's my opinion in a nutshell:

If a private, non-tax-funded school wants to do it, it's none of my business.

If a public, tax-funded school (they shouldn't exist in the first place, but that's another issue) wants to do it, they shouldn't be allowed to.

I've already dealt with the issue in depth on my personal website. I'm not going to bother copying the article over: http://www.zendebater.easy.dk3.com/affaction

If you want a summary, basically: The rationale for having affirmative action is having a diversity of opinions. It's ludicrous to tie "opinion" in with "race".

Search for Eugene Volokh's article "Diversity, Race as Proxy, Religion as Proxy" or something like that. It is very good.

[*kryogenix*]

bah, affirmative action isn't fair. people should be accepted for their qualification, not because they are a minority.

[Spirited Away]

bah, affirmative action isn't fair. people should be accepted for their qualification, not because they are a minority.

*nods* and it's reverse discrimination.

I don't necessarily agree completely with it... maybe instead of banning it, it should be restricted or maybe lower requirements and standards?

[dasturbd]

getting hired/accepted because of the color of your skin is no better than being denied because of the color of your skin. It's still discriminates against others

It's not right to take away from those who worked their asses off to get the credentials they need to get a good job just to hand it over to someone else because you have a quota of skin color to maintain.

[*Kathleen*]

Yeah, as others have said before me - it's reverse discrimination. It really isn't fair, as dasturbd said, to take away jobs to those that did work for it simply because they aren't the right skin color.

[onenonly101]

But what if they were denied the job because they were black or a woman? Affirmative Action was created to give an oppertunity to people who would not usually get that oppertunity.

This is something i relate to

Myth 7: You can't cure discrimination with discrimination.
The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word -- discrimination -- to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does. The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body's balance.

Affirmative Action is good and bad at the same time. Good that it gives people a chance who wouldn't get a chance if the person hiring is pejudice and racist. Bad in the fact that it gives some people chanes that they do not deserve because they are a minority

[ComradeRed]

*Ahem*

First, if your goal was to make sure that blacks had an equal footing in the job market, then you would pass EQUAL OPPORTUNITY LAWS, NOT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION LAWS.

Second, my right to free association trumps your right to my money. If a PRIVATE (meaning: not recieving public money) employer wants to refuse to hire people based on race, he has that right. Of course, this only applies to organizations that are not recieving public money, as they have a First Amendment right to free association (they use the word assembly, both of which are the same thing). If I buy a house, I don't HAVE to let you in. If I want to let only white people into my house, or if I want to let only black people into my house, it's MY house. I can let whoever I want in. Similarly, if I own a store, and I only want to let people of a certain race in, it's MY store. Not yours.

[onenonly101]

Second, my right to free association trumps your right to my money. If a PRIVATE (meaning: not recieving public money) employer wants to refuse to hire people based on race, he has that right. Of course, this only applies to organizations that are not recieving public money, as they have a First Amendment right to free association (they use the word assembly, both of which are the same thing). If I buy a house, I don't HAVE to let you in. If I want to let only white people into my house, or if I want to let only black people into my house, it's MY house. I can let whoever I want in. Similarly, if I own a store, and I only want to let people of a certain race in, it's MY store. Not yours.

That has nothing to do with Affirmative Action, that is you don't want black people buying stuff in your store in your house. Affirmative Action is to help minorities to get in the work force,get into university that wouldn't let thme because they are black

[ComradeRed]

But it applies to unviersities as well. If I run a PRIVATE university that recieves no public funding, I have teh right to let whomever I want in... and that includes only letting in people of a certain right. Don't believe me? www.bju.edu --> just one of many universities that acutally do this. A private school has the RIGHT to discriminate for the same reason I have teh right to discriminate in not letting people of a certain race into my house or store.

[ryfitaDF]

my reasons i won't be able to get in agood college.

1. my grades
2. no money
3. i'm a white, straight, male.

there should only be 2, don'cha think?

[IIO__oII]

my reasons i won't be able to get in agood college.

1. my grades
2. no money
3. i'm a white, straight, male.

there should only be 2, don'cha think?

HAHAHAH
thats cute.

[queen]

so then we all agree that:
- a person should be hired based on qualifications and not skin color.

and

we all don't approve of:
affirmative action aka reverse discrimination:preference for minorities
discrimination: preference for non minorities

k 'nough said.

[sadolakced acid]

affirmitave action is discrimination for certain minorities.

when i regester for college, i'm registering as hispanic.


a protest that was done:

college kids, hold a 'bake sale'

cookies 50 cents if you're black, hispanic, native american, or another minority besides asian. it's a dollar for asians and whites.

drinks 50cents unless you're sibling or parent alreday bought one, then it's 25cents

brownies are 15 cents for everyone, but asians and whites can't buy them.


just thier luck, there was a black music festival or something there. people went to buy baked goods... decided it was a F'ing racist place and started a riot.


if what the colleges do is legal, then is seating a black person first in a restraunt legal cus you "want a divierity in you diners" ????????

yea. i'm asian. it gets to me.

oh yea, and it doesn't matter how private your buisiness is. if you deny service or jobs based soley on race, you are in for a billion dollar lawsuit.

[onenonly101]

it is not discrimination. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion.

[sadolakced acid]

oh , so treating on race better isn't racism.

so the KKK is wrong for treating the non white races inferiorly

and the colleges are right for treating the whites and azns inferiorly?

[JlIaTMK]

oh , so treating on race better isn't racism.

so the KKK is wrong for treating the non white races inferiorly

and the colleges are right for treating the whites and azns inferiorly?

Affirmitive action should be outlawed I agree with sadolakced acid

my moms works at a job where affirmitive action takes place all the time and she has to work harder than a lot of people from a colored race

[onenonly101]

oh , so treating on race better isn't racism.

so the KKK is wrong for treating the non white races inferiorly

and the colleges are right for treating the whites and azns inferiorly?

affirmative action doesn't say that whites are below anyone

[sadolakced acid]

they don't say it. they treat asians and whites worst

people with worse qualifications are acepted to jobs anc colleges because a little thing called affirmative action lets them.

affirmative action is legalized racism.

any race except for shites and asains gets extra points.

in michigan, a perfect SAT score gets you +1 point on the formula to see if you make the basic requirements.

being black, hispanic, native american, or anything besides whites and asain give s you one point.


so the the white guy who does everything the same as the hispanic guy, but the white guy gets perfect on his SATs, and the hispanic guy gets a 800 total. the hispanic guy is the guy they pick. because he's hispanic.

you're right. affirmative action doesn't treat asians or whites like thier inferior. it treats the blacks, hispanics, and native americans as they are.

what they are saying is that you ( the minoritys minus asians) are not smart enough to get into college by yourself. that you are dumb, that you race makes you dumb. and they compensate for it. that is what affirmative action says.

and you know what? if you put it that way, i think i'm fine with affirmative action.

you're only dissing yourself (if you support it and are a minority, except asians).

[onenonly101]

it is not legalized racism affirmative action. The situation you presented is false, because an 800 for example is not accepted in most colleges. Plus SATS scores ARE NOT major in some colleges. Plus in no real situation has both people done the exact same thing.

Affirmative action is not saying that a minority is too dumb to get in by themselves, it is saying that there are too many ignortant racist who are deans of colleges who wouldn't dare alet a person of color or a woman get in without being forced to let them in. And also if you didn't know affirmative action not only helps people with color but also females, veterans and disabled persons. You say affirmative action makes whites and asians and men work harder, that is a lie. There are a number of slots for the minorities and say in it they made it that 16 out of 100 reserved for minorities. That not fair?? that is less than a 1/4 reserved for minorites. That mean that we as minorities have to work HARDER to be one of those very few that make it into the slot.

Lets define racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

Let define affirmative action:
Affirmative action programs seek to remedy past discrimination against women, minorities, and others by increasing the recruitment, promotion, retention, and on-the-job training opportunities in employment and by removing barriers to admission to educational institutions. Because of the long history of discrimination based on sex and race, most affirmative action programs have been directed towards improving employment and education opportunities for women and minorities.

Completely different

[onenonly101]

You also presented many MYTHS about Affirmative Action here are some, btw affirmative action does NOT hurt Asian-Americans

MYTH: Affirmative action hurts Whites and Asians.

FACT: Though affirmative action is believed to have harmed white men, this contradicts the reality that white men hold structural power in society today. For example, a Washington Post study shows that 95% of top corporate executives are white males. Asians benefit in many ways from affirmative action by making use of services provided by programs such as the Educational Opportunity Program, Upward Bound, and so on. It is another myth to believe that all Asians are a success story. A UCLA School of Urban Planning study shows that Pacific Islanders and South East Asians have poverty rates which are three times greater than white Americans. Other studies indicate enrollment of Pilipinos in higher education is much closer to African-Americans and Latinos that other Asians. Asians, revered as the "model minority" includes Pacific Islanders, South East Asians and Philipinos, yet there are distinct disparities between say a third generation Chinese student and a first generation Cambodian refugee. Thus affirmative action can only help not hinder the Asian community.

MYTH: Affirmative action is reverse discrimination, it gives preferential treatment to people of color and women.
FACT: Racism is power plus discrimination. The parameters of discrimination based on race are distinguished by the power dynamics. Reverse racism is not, therefore a reality if people of color are not in positions of power and perpetrating the discrimination. An Urban Institute study shows that less that 100 of 3000 cases could be considered reverse discrimination. Less that six of those cases were deemed by the court to be substantiated.
Affirmative action has been mislabeled "preferential treatment" for certain members of society. In reality it is a kind of social restitution and an attempt to create a more democratic society. President Johnson, in describing affirmative action, stated, "You do not take a person who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him and bring him to the starting line of a race and say, 'You are free to compete with others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair." Thus, it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity: all must have the ability to walk through those gates. Affirmative action is an attempt to facilitate a more level playing field.
Affirmative action recognizes the interconnectedness of race, class, gender. Many of the symbolic gates are beyond reach due to economic disparity which in turn is one of the effects of racism. We cannot divorce these interconnected issues from one another. Beginning with the consideration of race as permissible in university admissions, in the Regents of the University of California vs. Bakke, the court rejected the notion that the constitution prohibits considerations of race. In the UC system, race and ethnicity are not solely considered for admissions. Thus, there is no such thing as preferential treatment. Other criteria such as socio-economic level, state residency, special abilities, disabilities, familial ties and athletic ability are used in determining admissions. These supplemental criteria benefit everyone, not only people of color.

Myth: Nobody else gets special consideration when applying to a college or for a job. Why should all women and people of color?
Fact: Lots of people get "special" consideration when applying for jobs or to schools.
Veterans often get preferences in workplaces and on campuses — which usually benefit men more than women. The children of alumni get preferential treatment over others in admission to college. Friends help friends and acquaintances get jobs. Affirmative Action helps open doors for women and people of color who often don't have those connections.

Myth: Affirmative Action lowers standards in education and the workplace by letting unqualified people get ahead.
Fact: Affirmative Action helps qualified candidates overcome racism and sexism.
Affirmative Action is an investment in the future. By the time today's college students are at the height of their careers, one-third of the population will be comprised of African Americans and Latinos/Latinas.

[Mini]

they don't say it.  they treat asians and whites worst

people with worse qualifications are acepted to jobs anc colleges because a little thing called affirmative action lets them. 

affirmative action is legalized racism. 

any race except for shites and asains gets extra points. 

in michigan, a perfect SAT score gets you +1 point on the formula to see if you make the basic requirements. 

being black, hispanic, native american, or anything besides whites and asain give s you one point. 


so the the white guy who does everything the same as the hispanic guy, but the white guy gets perfect on his SATs, and the hispanic guy gets a 800 total.  the hispanic guy is the guy they pick.  because he's hispanic. 

you're right.  affirmative action doesn't treat asians or whites like thier inferior.  it treats the blacks, hispanics, and native americans as they are.

what they are saying is that you ( the minoritys minus asians)  are not smart enough to get into college by yourself.  that you are dumb, that you race makes you dumb.  and they compensate for it.  that is what affirmative action says. 

and you know what?  if you put it that way, i think i'm fine with affirmative action. 

you're only dissing yourself (if you support it and are a minority, except asians).

i totally agree. i don't think its fair at all. i mean if you are choosing someone because they are a minority is totally racism to me. wouldn't it make more sense to pick the smartest out of the rest because there is more to compare with? i just don't understand colleges.

[juliar]

i totally agree. i don't think its fair at all. i mean if you are choosing someone because they are a minority is totally racism to me. wouldn't it make more sense to pick the smartest out of the rest because there is more to compare with? i just don't understand colleges.

Just to point something out, he/she is saying that it IS okay.

[sadolakced acid]

no, he is being sarcastic and pointing out a few facts.

and i'm sorry onenonly101, but you are wrong. affirmative action does not aid asians. the asian continent is gigantic. anyone from there, in addition to pacific islanders, are considered asian/PA islander. which means, the success of some groups of asians leads to the whole group being treated differently

and just becausesome of the asians are smarter, and that even with affirmative action limiting our access to selective colleges, this minority has still mangagesd to earn up to 40% population at selective colleges, like berkley.

but you see, this is only a few of the asians.

you seen asian ghettos? there's in california. you've never heard of the asian prostitution rings? you are hurting all asians. because affirmative action gives NO SUPPORT TO ASIANS. ASIANS ARE CONSIDERED SMART ENOUGH ALREADY, BASED ON THE OBSERVATION THAT THERE ARE ASIANS IN UNIVERSITIES.

so , if i get what you're saying...
you're saying that

the blacks, hispanics, and other minoritys are too dumb to get into college and get jobs on thier own?

is that what you're saying?

and, asians have been treated as those. chinese exclusion acts, japanesse internments, lynchings of chinese. they were given the wortst jobs, just 80 years agos, and persecuted just 50. when did slavery end? over 150 years ago.

this is preffered treatment.

two wrongs do not make a right. sure, it was wrong the way minorities were treated. but using racism to reach racial quotas is not the way to make it better.


here is one that would. use some money to improve the schools in the slum areas and areas of poverty. then you'd actually be helping the people who need it, with out using racism.

[sadolakced acid]

i like your definition of racism. very political. there are 2 definitions of racism. don't leave off one.

here are all the definitions

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

from merriam-webster.com check it out if you doubt.

look at number 2. that's affirmative action.