I don't know many people that are Fatists, people that believe in Destiny, and a set course in path and in life. It may be either they don't want to believe it, or simply don't see the benefit, or maybe they don't understand it enough about it to think that it could work.

All choices are governed by factors, by influences. These factors are cancelled, reduced, and summed to calculate the end decision. The result of the choice reacts, and causes other factors, which then influence more choice. This endless cycle of cause and effect; of factor and choice is known as Fate -- Destiny.

Everything that has ever happened, happened the way it should have. There are no mistakes, simply, because Fate does not pose as a question with variation, but a statement. Fact, not opinion. Cause and effect are the only constants. All factors, when calculated out and completely influenced the sides of a decision will create the outcome. The outcome is then another choice. These factors are direct causes of choice, making variation an impossibility.

This is the essence of the inevitabilty. To think of Destiny as a helplessness, a weakness of non-control, it can be thought of on the contrary. It can be a strength: to know that what you do is with purpose, with pure decision and meaning; with an ultimatum of complete solidarity. It provides us with meaning in all actions, creating every movement, sound, and touch an art form within itself.


FOR MOVIE GOERS
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Now, it might sound familiar. "Our choices are predetermined" only the "illusion of choice". Well I swear to you that there is one peice of culture that can actually explain the concept well. You've all heard of it before. Bullet-dodging, flying kicks, black leather suits and tight jackets. The Matrix. Right. I know. But they do it well.

Probably the largest portion of the movie that can coincide with these things are scenes with the Merovingian, the Oracle, the Architect and Smith. Mostly in Reloaded. If you listen to them carefully, and actually try to understand what they say, it can make sense.

IN A NUTSHELL
Opinions?

I follow what you're saying, but in a different perspective. The only reason why fate exists is because time is an illusion. Where we are, we will never know for sure. We can't tell the future, we can tell the past. We believe in fate because we aren't able to change the past.

Its a bit hard to explain, but I have my own weird philosophy. About everything, actually. One day I'll write a book.

I forgot to mention time. Basically there are two things that we must keep in mind about Fate and how it would work.

The idea of turning-left-instead-of-right-and-it-will-change-everything-in-your-life-forever sort of thing is governed by the factors that determine which choice you make. Say you choose right. You will choose right because you feel like choosing right. That "feeling" can be broken down even more into the chemicals and electric flows in your brain. Which were caused out of your birth, and your parents meeting, and etc. etc. down to the beginning of time. These are all factors that will decide that one decision.

The past will determine your future, and since we cannot change our past, the future is in a set state.

i'm not a fatist. i think things just happen. you control what you do, nothing is set in stone. things happen you can't control, as well. *shrug* it's life.

Don't you ever wonder why things "just" happen. And are you sure? Becuase if certain things just happen, things we can't control: that's pretty set in stone.

well no, no one's sure, that's what i just think to be more logical. and if things happen that we can't control, that doesn't mean they were planned. they just happened. and if things are planned and set in stone, who plans them? i just think your own decisions make the course of your life. for example; if i didn't choose to download ted leo and the pharmacists when my friend told me to, i wouldn't be friends with this kid john in my school. if i wasn't friends with him i wouldn't have gotten rides home from every joseph rehearsal, and my life would be different now, based on MY choice.

Correct. Except one thing. That choice is predetermined.

You had a choice to download the song, or not to download the song.
You then therefore require a decision.
That decision was made out of motives and influences and factors
Factors which sprung from past choices
For example, you chose what kind of music you liked
All the things from the past will make you measure out a decision
And it will be that decision for sure.
Because your past is fixed.

Ta-da!

omg, sammi! since when have you been people staff?
_____________________

i am kinda undecided. some people say that god make everything happen but that is kinda hard to believe considering that i could go get a knife and slit my throat right know and that would be MY decision. but then again, it is a weird saying that things just happen. once again, i am just not sure...

My position on God is a little different than what people may think of. Instead of God being an actual being, I see it as some force. Or actually, I should say a process. Fate is not a force, but a system and process, a simple formula through which things in our lives must calculate through, and re-calculated to conform outcomes in our universe.

In...uh...this case. One of the things that annoyed me about what we consider as religion today is that one singular thing without much evidence and proof is an explanation for all things.

"He hung himself, he chose to."
"No, God chose for him, it was his will."
"Right."

The only difference with the impact of Fate and of God is that, I feel, one makes more sense than the other. Which explains, thereto.

i don't exactly believe in destiny or fate, but i believe that everyone doesn't have complete free will. our lives are determined by our environment and the people around us. our free will is incomplete because we are influence by others and their feelings.

I believe God controls my destiny/fate...

But here's the thing, our free will is determined by our environment. Again, certain things around you, feelings, motives, influences, factors of your environment will make you determine a choice, therefore making it predetermined. Free will is only a illusion of choice.

not exactly. my idea of destiny/fate is that there has already been a path set out for you even before you were born. yes i agree, free will is an illusion of choice, but i don't believe that my destiny had already been set out for me before i was born.

But God gave you free will.

^ i think what he/she meant is that God already knows what is going to happen to us. yes it is true he gave us free will but i think she stated that incorrectly by saying "controls". God knows everything that goes on but he does not control it.

Actually, no.

Christians believe in predestination. It's a doctrine that says a person's destiny is determined by God. Predestination has roots in the Old Testament, if you don't believe me. He, not only "knows" fate/destiny, He determines it.

Ooo very interesting ideas. I agree with you very much xXYouMeBedNowXx. Actually you bring up an argument for God (I don't believe in "The God" actually) called the cosmological argument.

Cosmological Argument:
Every event has a cause.
Causes precede thier events in time.
Either a causes is it's own causes or there is an infinite chain of events extending backwards in time.
Because there can not be an infinite chain of events there must have been a first causes and this (as the argument says) is God.

Now let use an analogy, the pool table:
We have physical LAWS that govern motion.
If you set up a pool table and hit the ball and stop freez time for a moment you could use physics to predict the motion of the other balls and as it turns out this of course works.
Now the pool table is like the universe and is goverened by laws of cause and effect so each event has a cause, but this means there must be a root cause which we cannot seem to comprehend or explain. Some believe this is God. I believe this root cause is at least is some "thing" we cannot explain. Maybe it's a monkey. Who knows.

Some Problems:
A problem with cause and effect though is that our laws of the universe are only apporximations because as far as we can tell the complexity of space time interactions could be infinit. There are many branches of physics which account for different situations of our universe. There is the traditional Newtonian physics which is what has been around for a long long time and then of course Einstein's theory of relativity which came along b/c the universe doesn't quite work the same way at velocities near the speed of light and also very new theories to explain quarks and such and such.

So one problem is although we know a lot we don't know it all; there could be some random factor in the universe we have not discovered. Maybe it is so minute at certain levels it doesn't matter but on a grand scale the randomness has an effect.

If There Are Laws
Ok now lets say there is absolute cause and effect. Then yes we are subjected to fate. BUT the sheer complexity of our univeres is so impossibly incalculable by any means of ours that in a sense it might as well be random. To us certain things such as feelings choices although might be caused by chemical reactions are in a sense random us or maybe a better term is pseudo random. We cannot explain these things maybe not b/c we don't understand the concepts behind them but maybe because the complexity of situations would require to much calculating power.

Here is another analogy:
In computers there is no such thing as random. Period. A computer is made up of reliable hardware and (sometimes not so reliable ) programs. People first must understand computers on a basic level have very very basic functionality such as true or false logic and arithmatic. Programs are very clear instructions to perform these basic operations. Complexity arrises when people find ways to use these basic hardware and basic computer operations to form much more complicated tasks. Now as you can see from your own computer sometimes it may seem like there is randomness BUT THERE ISN'T. All things happen in your computer for a reason that is why software companies spend millions of dollars in debugging thier software. That is why if you take someone who is very knowledgable they will know what is happening in your computer. But to you it seems random because it's complexity is so great people (even computer scientists most of the time) can not directly tell what are the causes.

Final Thoughts
Yes I do believe somewhat in fatism from a logical stand point. But from a pratical stand point I believe for all purposes that are important randomness exists. If you want to talk sociology there's the whole thing of "the path of least resistance" and the social structures that push us to certain paths in life but that's a different discussion. The thing about purpose well I don't agree fully with that. Lets say someone did kick start the universe. Well how do we even know he cares about us when there is the rest of the universe. Hey the starter could be Lisa SImpson who shocked a petri dish with her tooth in it. And she sure doesn't seem to care too much. I think purpose comes from your own experience and your own understanding of the world.

Here's a quote from the movie K-Pax:
"I want to tell you something Mark, something you do not yet know, but we K-Paxians have been around long enough to have discovered. The universe will expand, and it will collapse back on itself, then will expand again. It will repeat this process forever. What you don't know is that when the universe expands again, everything will be as it is now. Whatever mistakes you make this time around, you will live through on your next pass. Every mistake you make, you will live through again, and again, forever. So my advice to you is to get it right this time around. Because this time is all you have. " - Prot

I think I love you, Jhaks.

I don't now if i necessarily believe in fate and destiny. I remember one time visiting St. Jude's hospital and seeing all the cancer stricken children and babies. I hate to even think all that was predetermined.

I believe in fate and I believe everything happens for a reason, but I don't think its predetermined, I think its based on the different things you do through out life, I don't believe "god" sets these chains of events in our lifes, because I believe the individual is the master of their own destiny. I don't my ideas and phylosophys are complex and this is just the bare bones of what I believe.

i believe that fate is an excellent way to escape responsibility.

^yes.
i think we have some say in what we will become, but there are some parts of our lives that we will come to because it is our destiny. but i think we can decide most of our destiny.

I know that it's horrible to bring this back up so late, but I can't bring up another topic on the same thing and satisfy my need to do this.


True enough, yes. Again, one of the things about Fatism that I've found, compared to many others, is that it doesn't seem as justified as many other things. Fatism doesn't exactly seem to be as mythical or as out-of-this-worldish because we take into consideration logical explanations. Fatism is not something that I learned out of a book, or heard from from someone else, it is a simple manifestation of analysis of the things that I've witnessed. Which is why I believe in it so devoutly. Because it is my own deviation.

Even though, yes, those patients are in those hospital beds because they were meant to be, according to Fate. I still must say that simply because we can't exactly accept it, because we won't or we don't want to, does not mean that it can be completely denied.


Well, true enough, Fate can mean many different things and have many different variations. The things I'm putting out here are MY interpretations of what Fatism is. I'll just put down another post that may pertain to what is said in yours:

"choice is predetermined. [even yours]

You had a choice to download the song, or not to download the song.
You then therefore require a decision.
That decision was made out of motives and influences and factors
Factors which sprung from past choices
For example, you chose what kind of music you liked
All the things from the past will make you measure out a decision
And it will be that decision for sure.
Because your past is fixed.

Ta-da!"


You can replace the word "Fate" and put that in with a lot of other beliefs, can't you? But yeah, it does sometimes. Makes you feel okay about some of the mistakes you make. Kinda sad to know that though.

THE THING ABOUT OUR CHOICES
I've just come to say this, but I've noticed that many people believe that their own choice will determine their course in life. Yes and no.

What you decide now will affect your decisions in the future.

What you decided before will affect your decisions now.

So transitively, your decisions from before will affect your decisions in the future, through the present.

Basically, according to Fate, even if you did nothing for the rest of your lifetime, it would avoid whatever happens later on because you wouldn't have to make any choices. You go "Hey, everything for me is predetermined, so why not just sit back, do nothing and let it all happen?!" because, people, that is a demonstration of Fate. Knowing about Fate itself becomes a factor. You reading this post becomes a factor. Believing in Fate even becomes a factor. You will make your decisions, even though it seems that it can go both ways, even if it doesn't seem that you are always compelled to one thing, and even if you seem to make a decision to cheat fate, all of it is still Fate because your decision becomes a role in the stage act of our set course according to destiny.

I know it may seem all opinionated. Attack me if you wish.

Wow, that's basically the christian belief, or the ideal christian belief. A lot of christians don't fully immerse themselves in their doctrine. The only difference between fatism and christianity as far as i can see is the fact that Christianity provides information about the cause. The earth is an effect, what is/was the cause? What started the chain reaction of events that have led to the present and is leading to the future. Our answer is God. Who, in my opinion, is basically like gravity. We can jump off a cliff and pretend that gravity doesn't exist, but we'll still be dragged straight down to the surface again to face the reality of injury or even death. In free fall you witness the power of gravity. Christians take a leap of faith and are falling, they feel the power of God. Gravity is always on, even when you forget about it or don't realize it. Just walking around, you're still bound by it's law. The world's fate is still decided by God's will. No nuclear weapon will completely destroy the world. Maybe a third, but that's still remains to be seen. Everything falls into place as if by chance, but nothing could be farther from the truth. When whatever scientific explanation tells of how the universe was created, what are the chances of one planet in a solar system would be the perfect distance from it's center to be able to support life? Slim to none. Nothing is luck. A toss of the dice a common referance of luck is not so much chance, but mathematical calculation. What the die lands on is decided by factors such as how it started when it was thrown, did it bounce, how far it rolled, and so many others that it could take an entire reply to name. Fate is a power right? it's mysterious. It has attributes that cannot be entirely defined by man. It has tumblers that just fall into place perfectly. I have a question, where is the key? how is it unlocked. who or what locked it? I claim this unexplained unpersonified entity as the God of Abraham and Isaac. You may not and that's fine. I'm just trying to help you understand where i'm coming from and help you better define your beliefs. It's my rather long winded attempt at the socratic method.

Bingo. Someone has made the million dollar remark.

Now, the only problem that I haven't figured out yet about Fate is truly, the beginning of time (or what I like to call Genesis, simply because it's the closest word that I have). According to Destiny, Cause precedes effect and therefore, Destiny works in both ways, toward the past and to the future. However, this is where it becomes faulty: what was the first factor? According to Destiny, the first factor determines all factors and decisions later on.

I think this is what we call God. That, and the effects of destiny, we personify into a higher being because it determines everything we do in life. "God" started out the universe by becoming the first factor and His master plan, the set course of our universe according to the laws of Destiny, goes into effect. A lot of the time, replacing the names of God with "Fate" still seems to work.

In the end, you'll find that many religions find the same truth. That maybe Destiny and God are the same thing. That maybe Allah and Buddha are the same thing. We all believe in what we do differently, but we are only try to achieve the same goal: enlightenment.