Illegal Immigration, is there anyone pro-amnesty? Options

[*Steven*]

Lol yeah I can merge them, I didn't realize this wasn't mine rofl.

[radhikaeatsraman]

Wow, you guys are crappy debaters, no offense.

Have any of you ever even BEEN through the U.S. immigration system? It's extremely fucked up. Getting a visa to come to the U.S. is like winning the lottery. That's partly the reason why people come illegally. Another reason people come here is because they're given jobs. If we crack down on employers who are giving illegals jobs, the problem will (almost) be solved. If there are no jobs, people won't come. However, we should not attack the children of illegals, because they came under their parents' jurisdiction. This is why I support the DREAM Act [1] for illegal alien students.

And yes, I believe English should be the official language. But that doesn't give us a right to ignore other languages altogether. We should require foreign languages starting in elementary school so that we can compete in the global market and repair relations with the world. We also need to repair the ESL education system. Many times, kids are stuck in a classroom with other kids that don't speak their language, and the only person who actually speaks English is the teacher. We need to employ teachers that speak multiple languages so they can help students from all over the world. We also need to help adults learn English so that they can communicate with their children, their children's teachers, etc etc. Being skilled & legal =/= knowing fluent English.

We need to crack down on illegal immigration, I agree, but we cannot break families apart.

[*Steven*]

K since people are such crappy debaters, I'll give it a shot.

I agree with what you've said about most of the things you've said, but the learning Spanish thing I find ridiculous. English is the business language, of the world. Why should we go out of our way to learn Spanish when the primary necessity to know Spanish goes to people who are employing laborers that work in kitchens and construction. I hate to be stereotypical, but that's where the majority of the illegals work. Also, if they're going to come to our country to learn, we shouldn't have to learn Spanish so we can suit the needs of people who snuck over here illegally. Yes getting a Visa can be hard, so instead of everyone coming over here for a better life, they can start working on their own country. I know they live in oppression, poverty, yadda yadda, w/e. They can still start to make their country better. Their government's bad? Organize a resistance.

You know I think I've already voiced everything and I'm repeating myself right now, but on I go.

Anyways, moving on. Even if they don't notice a change right away, if they keep working at it, and get everyone working at it, their country can become better. It may take several generations, but if they don't do it because of that, it's their selfish fault. People can't just expect their lives to be better all of a sudden.

But anyways, I don't feel it should be the United States' responsibility to police the rest of the world or have to take care of the rest of the world. I mean, for Christ's sake, they hate us. Why should we go out of our way to be nice to people. I've got an isolationists ideas in mind right now, but don't think we should totally isolate ourselves like we've done with exception of war time before WWII. We need to maintain trading relations, and keep trading and push for a profit instead of continually pushing ourselves into debt, but that's a different debate and runs deep in the government and bureaucracy.

Anyways, I feel I'm ranting now, so I'll wait for a response to what I've said to continue

[radhikaeatsraman]

K since people are such crappy debaters, I'll give it a shot.

I agree with what you've said about most of the things you've said, but the learning Spanish thing I find ridiculous. English is the business language, of the world. Why should we go out of our way to learn Spanish when the primary necessity to know Spanish goes to people who are employing laborers that work in kitchens and construction. I hate to be stereotypical, but that's where the majority of the illegals work. Also, if they're going to come to our country to learn, we shouldn't have to learn Spanish so we can suit the needs of people who snuck over here illegally. Yes getting a Visa can be hard, so instead of everyone coming over here for a better life, they can start working on their own country. I know they live in oppression, poverty, yadda yadda, w/e. They can still start to make their country better. Their government's bad? Organize a resistance.

But anyways, I don't feel it should be the United States' responsibility to police the rest of the world or have to take care of the rest of the world. I mean, for Christ's sake, they hate us. Why should we go out of our way to be nice to people. I've got an isolationists ideas in mind right now, but don't think we should totally isolate ourselves like we've done with exception of war time before WWII. We need to maintain trading relations, and keep trading and push for a profit instead of continually pushing ourselves into debt, but that's a different debate and runs deep in the government and bureaucracy.

I think you need to keep a more open mind about language learning. I agree that we shouldn't be policing the world, but we need to maintain good relations with other countries. And Spanish isn't just for the illegal immigrants that come here - it is also a powerful business language. As are Chinese & Hindi. In addition, we have second-generation Americans who want to learn their heritage languages. If they already know English, shouldn't we give them the opportunity to learn other languages? I also don't see what is wrong with learning about a new culture & a new language. We need to open our minds & hearts to other places in the world; understanding other cultures is the only way we can achieve peace.

Like it or not, Steven, Spanish is a useful language to know if you're running a construction business or a restaurant. Also, by 2050, the Hispanic population is expected to triple. [1] That's serious money to be made right there. Just because illegals generally work in construction or other low-skilled jobs, doesn't mean they don't have purchasing power or we shouldn't try to be on good terms with them.

[*Steven*]

I'm not saying that it's useless by any means, nor should learning a second language be ignored. I know enough spanish to get around in nearly any spanish speaking country, and enough to know what the soccer players are saying on the field or what the workers are saying in the back. I know that it's a useful language like Chinese but world-wide, english is the dominant business language. People should focus on becoming better speakers of their own language before they try to master another one.

[radhikaeatsraman]

I'm not saying that it's useless by any means, nor should learning a second language be ignored. I know enough spanish to get around in nearly any spanish speaking country, and enough to know what the soccer players are saying on the field or what the workers are saying in the back. I know that it's a useful language like Chinese but world-wide, english is the dominant business language. People should focus on becoming better speakers of their own language before they try to master another one.

You've put yourself in a tight spot, bud.
Most illegal immigrants that come to the United States do not have a high school diploma, and their Spanish is usually not proper; so according to your argument here, they should focus on learning better Spanish before learning English!

[*Steven*]

You've put yourself in a tight spot, bud.
Most illegal immigrants that come to the United States do not have a high school diploma, and their Spanish is usually not proper; so according to your argument here, they should focus on learning better Spanish before learning English!

Nah, didn't put myself in a tight spot. You misinterpreted what I said. That last statement was aimed at native english speakers.

[radhikaeatsraman]

Nah, didn't put myself in a tight spot. You misinterpreted what I said. That last statement was aimed at native english speakers.

Well, it sure didn't say that.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with learning two languages at the same time while you're young. In fact, young children have an easier time learning languages, and multilingual children have better language skills overall. Why not promote multilingualism in such a multicultural land?

[anydaynow]

I don't care as long as they speak English.
But I don't think they should be able to just climb a fence and expect all the rights that other people who worked really hard to get here legally got. That's like slapping the ones who came here legally in the face.

[*Steven*]

Well, it sure didn't say that.
Anyway, there's nothing wrong with learning two languages at the same time while you're young. In fact, young children have an easier time learning languages, and multilingual children have better language skills overall. Why not promote multilingualism in such a multicultural land?

Again, I'm not discouraging it so stop assuming I am. People would be better off being able to speak their language and convey what they're trying to say in an intelligent matter than being able to speak your language okay and be able to half-ass speak another. If you can communicate with your employer during an interview and come off as highly intelligent sounding, it gives you a better chance of being hired. Most jobs you don't have a necessity to speak spanish in.

You've got your views, and I've got mine. You're considerably more liberal in your views (from what I've seen), and I'm highly conservative. It's gonna be hard for us to come to an agreement.

Edit: Anydaynow, please refrain from posting to the original topic when there's a clear discussion going on. Read the last page and join in on the discussion. Thanks :)
(Oh yeah, it says that in the sticky btw, the one titled "READ BEFORE POSTING")

[radhikaeatsraman]

Agreed, we should stop.

BACK TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, PEOPLE.

[*Uronacid*]

I think we should shoot illegal immigrants. I just think that if we shot them and they noticed that people who came to American where being shot if they didn't own a green card, we would have less problems in this area. We would also have more jobs :D.

[faydedprimadonna]

^i'm with you on that one! i hear that what a bunch of native americans are doing on their reservation borders... i'm all about immigration, don't get me wrong! my ancestors were immirants, but they did it the right way! they followed all the legal channels and became CITIZENS... i'm so f**king tired of everyone else in the world thinking that america is the f**king mommy country... "oh well our country went to shit, let's go to america! they'll fix everything..." if we didn't have issues with unemployment, homelessness, education, social security, and poverty, then by all means, let 'em all in... until then, CLOSE THE f**kING BORDERS! TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN BEFORE YOU TRY TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYBODY ELSE! besides, bush and kennedy are only pro-amnesty because if they let all the illegals become citizens, who do you think they're gonna vote for? SELFISH BASTARDS ARE TEARING THIS COUNTRY APART!

[LoveDanceSoul]

Its just wrong, and is becoming probably the largest issue in America today. There's a problem when its expected that Mexicans [not hispanics in general] will make up 50% of the Californian population by 2012. You also have a large group of Illegals who refuse to learn english, which I find to be extremely disrespectful. If I were even going to visit another country that didnt speak my language, I would learn enough to get by. Its also a problem when you're demanding rights, but you werent even supposed to be here in the first place. The effects of this overflow of people are horrible. A slow economy, predatory loans, overcrowding, etc. If you want to immigrate, you should go through the proper protocols and it would be much easier for you to gain rights.

[flaymzofice]

Sorry, haven't been keeping up with my world affairs, but it's an issue that gets pushed to the backburner here in the UK and like a couple of the people who have posted here, I could justifiably be accused of racism against my own kind, for saying illegal Chinese immigrants should be deported.

That's not to show lack of empathy with their plight, or that of any other illegal immigrant, but why should I show sympathy if they can't show a little understanding of what their presence in our country (UK or US) means to us?

It would seem education is the basis for reaching any sort of understanding, since we clearly realise the full consequence of their being in our country, positive (taking the jobs nobody else wants) and negative (healthcare, taxes etc etc) but obviously all they see is the light at the end of the tunnel with no consideration for the source of that light (just to go with the analogy).

I'm Conservative so I'm pretty much bound to have these views, but I just don't see why a desperate situation back home, gives anyone the right to run away from it and invade someone elses. And I'm also glad that all (US & UK) laws have been amended to cater for the deportation of illegal immigrants despite having given birth to a child on foreign soil. And yet in the UK at least, there is still a catastrophic failure to properly implement these laws - the number of illegal Chinese immigrants ripping off our welfare system makes me pretty angry and only reiterates my belief that laissez faire is the way forward - if you want something, work for it. Just like everyone else.

[faydedprimadonna]

You also have a large group of Illegals who refuse to learn english, which I find to be extremely disrespectful. If I were even going to visit another country that didnt speak my language, I would learn enough to get by. Its also a problem when you're demanding rights, but you werent even supposed to be here in the first place. The effects of this overflow of people are horrible. A slow economy, predatory loans, overcrowding, etc. If you want to immigrate, you should go through the proper protocols and it would be much easier for you to gain rights.

i agree wholeheartedly... i spent a semester in spain my junior year and i was constantly berated by the spanish that i didn't speak enough of their language... i knew enough to make it by, but they were still a little put off that i had to use alot of english...

if you're going to invade someone's country, at least have the common decency to try to blend in... of course you don't have civil rights... maybe if you spoke some english you might understand the constitution...

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

that means we take care of america and americans... not every f**king minority sick of their own country... i'm so f**king tired of illegals raping this country and making a mockery of it's laws... they're ALREADY criminals for crossing the border in the first place... i'm supposing that people don't know what the word illegal means...

illegal

adjective
prohibited by law or by official or accepted rules

you don't speak english... here you go!

Arabic: غَيْر قانوني، غَيْر شَرْعي
Chinese (Simplified): 非法的，违法的，不合规定的
Chinese (Traditional): 非法的，違法的
Czech: zakázaný
Danish: ulovlig; strafbar; illegal
Dutch: onwettig
Estonian: seadusevastane
Finnish: laiton
French: illégal
German: ungesetzlich
Greek: παράνομος
Hungarian: törvénytelen, illegális
Icelandic: ólöglegur
Indonesian: hukum
Italian: illegale
Japanese: 不法の
Korean: 불법의
Latvian: nelikumīgs; pretlikumīgs; nelegāls
Lithuanian: neteisėtas, nelegalus
Norwegian: ulovlig, illegal, lovstridig
Polish: nielegalny
Portuguese (Brazil): ilegal
Portuguese (Portugal): ilegal
Romanian: ile­gal
Russian: противозаконный
Slovak: zakázaný, nezákonný
Slovenian: nezakonit
Spanish: ilegal
Swedish: illegal, olaglig
Turkish: kanuna aykırı

you don't want to assimilate? you don't want to speak english? you want a green card so bad? you want to carry your mexican flag while protesting for american rights... you f**king love mexico so much, GO BACK YOU f**kING SPICKS! WE DON'T WANT YOU! WE DON'T NEED YOU! GET THE f**k OUT OF MY COUNTRY OR STOP BITCHING!

p.s. that goes for ALL the illegal immigrants... i realize that the mexican invasion is the forefront of the illegals debate, but there are also a mass amount of jamaicans, brazilians, bulgarians, and hatians invading as well... so don't feel bad mexicans, i'm picking on the others too

[bat19]

Yo, it's not that serious. Sure, what is being done may not be right...but attacking them like this isn't either. You might want to calm down.

I think we should patrol the boarder with apache helicopters armed with 0.50 caliber machine guns. If we see one of those fuckers crossing the line we should gun them down. Evenually we'll paint the boarder red with the blood of civilians. Then we can tell people not to cross the red line. Maybe someday we'll see it from space.

[lilsnoopy]

I CAME TO AMERICA LEGALLY!!!!
^_______________^

AND YOU SHOULD TOO you stupid ppl who wont even try to intergrate into american society by learning the language....

[lonnie2009]

11-30-2009 Las Vegas, NV These Illegal Mexicans are stealing anything they can get there hands on. They have invaded the U.S. Border for the last 30 years and expect freebies or any kind from the United States. They have stolen any thing they can, Including Social Security Numbers, Education, Medical treatments from Hospitals They are also cowards. Why don't they go back to Mexico and fight the Drug Wars? They have perfected the art of fogery, fraud, Identy Theft. They are to stupid or lazy to learn English, So the Government has catered to them in many forms. Including sending out sample voting ballets printed in Spainish. If they don't speak English they shouldn't be in the United States. They cost the local County Hospital, 24 MILLION a year in free cancer treatments. These Mexicans at estamated total of about 80, get free Medical in Clark County without a thought that Nevada taxpayers are footing the bill.
They sell tomalies door to door, without a Clark County Health Card or Bussiness License, so they don't pay a State Sales Tax, they sell bottled water on the Strip with no Health Card, or Bussines License. They hang out in front of Home Depot, Star Nursery, U-Haul truck rental looking for day labor, No Social Security or Medicare is paid by these ILLEGAL MEXICANS, they are illegal just by being in the United States, and break any law they want, if they get caught they get deported and will be back in about a week. It's time the United States got really serious about DEPORTING ALL THE MEXICANS. The average American Citizen should not have to support these people, and hand out freebies, such as Food Stamps, TANF, Education, Welfare, Medical Treatments, to a group of people who Clearlily ILLEGAL, for every One Dollar the Mexicans are paying into the System, they take out THREE DOLLARS. Enough is Enough Mexicans go Home.

[NoSex]

^ racist much?

[sixfive]

Deservedly so those wet ones are only good for mowing lawns and cooking in chinese kitchens.

[vehvih]

I don't care where the hell they come from, whatever motive they have, I just want them to pay their taxes like how I pay mine as a immigrant who has citizenship.

People think they get benefits when they start becoming documented. No, THE GOVERNMENT TAKE TAXES FROM THEIR INCOME.

Don't you get it???? And if they get citizenship, they get taxed, maybe, just maybe it will help a little fraction of our deficit. A little is better than nothing.

Just imagine how many people will start getting taxed once they're documented.

And when they're legal, I want to make sure they are getting taxed. Everyone of them.

[Uronacid]

I'm discusted with our federal gov't and the way they're handling Arizona at the moment. I can't blame Arizona for enforcing federal law with their police force. We have similar problems in upstate New York because Illegals come in to work for the horse track in Saratoga durring the summer months. Illegals often commit rediculous crimes. These are crimes that would not have been commited had they been deported in the first place. Companies that hire illegals should be advertised as such if proper procedures aren't taken durring the hiring process.

[sixfive]

they took our jobs

[vehvih]

They didn't take your jobs honey, the companies hired them over you because they're cheap.