socialism v. capitalism: Rating Options

[NoSex]

i view capitalism as a mode of economic & social infancy. i think that it is regressive to society, poisonous, & under-developing.

i point to these basic "flaws" in capitalism*:
1. the emphasis on profit as opposed to utility.
2. the creation of oligarchy & plutocracy.
3. the unfair/uneven distribution of wealth.
4. the creation of a significant class divide.
5. the inability of capitalism, alone, to provide the people with necessities.
6. the exploitation of the working class.
7. the existence of crime in excess, caused by class struggle, poverty, & proletariat anxiety.
8. the creation of an oppressive institution (i.e. the police state, the church, the education system) in order to secure profits to a specific & elite population.

i point to these basic "benefits" in socialism*:
1. the emphasis on utility.
2. the destruction of plutocracy & (in many forms) oligarchy.
3. the fair distribution of wealth.
4. the destruction of a significant class divide.
5. the ability of socialism to provide for its people, necessities.
6. the affirmation of the working class.
7. the absence of crime invoked by squalor & proletariat anxiety.
8. the destruction of specific oppressive institutions & the opportunity to reform the state (i.e. despite the pull of capital & profits).

DISCUSS.

*quotation marks provided for argument's sake. whatever.

[sixfive]

I'm not opposed to socialistic ideals/systems nor do I necessarily fully support capitalism

But let's see. Socialism is a system that's bound to be taken advantage of by lazy individuals. They'll take the fair distribution of wealth and they'll not put in their fair share of work. Not everyone is created equal, and not everyone deserves to be treated equally. Uhh, I can't think of too terribly much against socialism ^_^

[illriginal]

How would you define, "fair distribution of wealth", NoSex?

[mipadi]

When viewed in the context of the development of societies and civilizations, capitalism runs contrary to the goals of such institutions. In capitalism, the individual is seen as the key to his own success; i.e., economic prosperity depends on the will of the individual to "work hard". But the whole motivation behind forming societies was to allow people to work together, with their own individual strengths and weaknesses, for the greater good of everyone involved -- rather than just fighting "in the jungle" over limited resources. In essence, this was a socialist system.

In light of this, capitalism feels like a return to the jungle out of which we labored so hard to climb.

[NoSex]

But let's see. Socialism is a system that's bound to be taken advantage of by lazy individuals. They'll take the fair distribution of wealth and they'll not put in their fair share of work. Not everyone is created equal, and not everyone deserves to be treated equally. Uhh, I can't think of too terribly much against socialism ^_^

in my conception of a socialistic state, those individuals that choose not to work will be provided only what is owned most publicly (i.e. rations, shelter, the necessities). those who choose to work will be rewarded with "free" incomes, of which thing can do as they please (i.e. luxury & consumer goods).

How would you define, "fair distribution of wealth", NoSex?

those who do the most work, causing themselves the most stress, obtain the most wealth. the distribution of wealth, ideally, would be much closer to equal, but not necessarily equal. essentially, a small percentage of the population would no longer hold a majority of wealth, while most of the wealth would belong to a large working class.

In light of this, capitalism feels like a return to out of which jungle we labored so hard to climb.

that's a great perspective! bravo! i'll have to use this analogy sometime.

[mipadi]

that's a great perspective! bravo! i'll have to use this analogy sometime.

Shame I f*cked up my own copy editing. If you use the analogy, you'll probably want to phrase it in a more grammatically-correct manner.

[NoSex]

Shame I f*cked up my own copy editing.

no big. ahahha.

[batman]

i view capitalism as a mode of economic & social infancy. i think that it is regressive to society, poisonous, & under-developing.

i point to these basic "flaws" in capitalism*:
1. the emphasis on profit as opposed to utility.
2. the creation of oligarchy & plutocracy.
3. the unfair/uneven distribution of wealth.
4. the creation of a significant class divide.
5. the inability of capitalism, alone, to provide the people with necessities.
6. the exploitation of the working class.
7. the existence of crime in excess, caused by class struggle, poverty, & proletariat anxiety.
8. the creation of an oppressive institution (i.e. the police state, the church, the education system) in order to secure profits to a specific & elite population.

why hello karl marx.

contemporary civ class is discussing marx right now. bookmarking this and coming back to it after finishing his critique on capitalism and writing a 10 page essay comparing marx to hegel. -_-

[Uronacid]

Socialism looks great on paper, but history has shown us it doesn't work. Unfortunately it's marred by the corrupt leaders of government looking out for their best interest rather than the interests of their people. Not only that, individuals take advantage of the socialist system and those who work hard aren't rewarded for their efforts. Eventually those who work hard submit to the laziness of their neighbors because there is no reward to their efforts and the country slowly suffers as a whole as average citizen becomes more and more of a burden to its society. This system has been tried several times, and each time it has been met with failure in comparison to our semi-capitalist government. What makes anyone think it will succeed?

Capitalism isn't controlled by any one person or group of people. This is, in part, why it's so much more successful than socialism. It gives everyone the potential to become the best that he or she can become. Capitalism puts the responsibility of their well being on the individual. That said, capitalism doesn't provide for a person, but people provide for themselves. Every person is born equal, but no-one will have equal outcomes.

[mipadi]

Socialism looks great on paper, but it doesn't work. Unfortunately it's marred by the corrupt leaders of government looking out for their best interest rather than the interests of their people. Not only that, individuals take advantage of the socialist system and those who work hard aren't rewarded for their efforts. Eventually those who work hard submit to the laziness of their neighbors because there is no reward to their efforts and the country suffers as a whole.

Capitalism looks great on paper, but it does't work. Unfortunately, it's marred by the corrupt leaders of government looking out for their own best interest rather than the interests of their people. Not only that, individuals take advantage of the capitalist system and those who work hard aren't rewarded for their efforts. Eventually those who work hard submit to the laziness of their neighbors because there is no reward to their efforts and the country suffers as a whole.

[illriginal]

I think the only person able to be a great and successful socialist would have to be Jesus (pbuh) himself.

[brooklyneast05]

i duno, i mean i know a ton of people who work hard and capitalism hasn't given them anything for it. it's not like everyone has even close to an equal chance to succeed, because for example, people with more financial resources have a HUGE leg up. i don't see how every person is born equal in capitalism...


plenty of people weren't born equal with me

[Uronacid]

Capitalism looks great on paper, but it does't work. Unfortunately, it's marred by the corrupt leaders of government looking out for their own best interest rather than the interests of their people. Not only that, individuals take advantage of the capitalist system and those who work hard aren't rewarded for their efforts. Eventually those who work hard submit to the laziness of their neighbors because there is no reward to their efforts and the country suffers as a whole.

Capitalism is largely marred when gov't attempts to implement socialist policies on the business world. For example, the affordable housing “mission” that the government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were charged with fulfilling.

I think the only person able to be a great and successful socialist would have to be Jesus (pbuh) himself.

Only because he's considered to be perfect, blameless, and selfless.

i duno, i mean i know a ton of people who work hard and capitalism hasn't given them anything for it. it's not like everyone has even close to an equal chance to succeed, because for example, people with more financial resources have a HUGE leg up. i don't see how every person is born equal in capitalism...
plenty of people weren't born equal with me

Everyone's born with equal rights.

[brooklyneast05]

Everyone's born with equal rights.

but not an equal chance, oh ok.

[illriginal]

Only because he's considered to be perfect, blameless, and selfless.

Exactly.

[Uronacid]

but not an equal chance, oh ok.

You do have an equal chance. You're born into a world full of infinite possibilities. My god, Obama is living proof of that. Here's a man with interracial parents, his father passed away, he admits he did drugs as a child, and now he's the president.

Do you believe it's unfair for one family to make wise investments or start a business while the next generation reaps the benefits of it? You have the option to do the same. Your families previous generation had the option to do the same. While you may have to struggle at first, you can do it. Everyone is born with the potential to do great things. In a socialist system our potential is squashed by our government.

Exactly.

For once we agree on something!! YES!!!

[illriginal]

Obama is a puppet...


Anyways, Socialism in my opinion is the perfect political and economic system. But it is nearly impossible to have this form of utopia because humans are simply fallible, thus making it hard for socialism to exist in its' purity.

The one thing that bugs me the most is when people simply associate Socialism with Karl Marx. That's Marxism. Not Socialism in its' pure form. Study all the ancient tribes and their "governing" system and you'll discover that majority of the ancients all lived in socialized government.

People also make the mistake of associating socialism with communism. This is also a grave mistake. Some people need to watch the documentaries on Hugo Chavez so they can get a good idea of how Socialism works in real life. Even though Hugo isn't exactly the best candidate, at least he follows the core principles of a socialized nation.

[Uronacid]

Obama is a puppet...
Anyways, Socialism in my opinion is the perfect political and economic system. But it is nearly impossible to have this form of utopia because humans are simply fallible, thus making it hard for socialism to exist in its' purity.

The one thing that bugs me the most is when people simply associate Socialism with Karl Marx. That's Marxism. Not Socialism in its' pure form. Study all the ancient tribes and their "governing" system and you'll discover that majority of the ancients all lived in socialized government.

People also make the mistake of associating socialism with communism. This is also a grave mistake. Some people need to watch the documentaries on Hugo Chavez so they can get a good idea of how Socialism works in real life. Even though Hugo isn't exactly the best candidate, at least he follows the core principles of a socialized nation.

I completely agree. Every president is a puppet. Socialism is awesome but a failed system because humans are selfish. One thing you don't mention is that we wouldn't need socialism if humans were perfect. If everyone was indeed selfless and good then we wouldn't need government at all. Things would simply work.

Capitalism works because it's not governed by people. While it has it's flaws, it works because no-one is in control of it. Individuals are in control of their own future, and the out come of their lives is based upon the decisions that they make.

[brooklyneast05]

You do have an equal chance. You're born into a world full of infinite possibilities. My god, Obama is living proof of that. Here's a man with interracial parents, his father passed away, he admits he did drugs as a child, and now he's the president.

Do you believe it's unfair for one family to make wise investments or start a business while the next generation reaps the benefits of it? You have the option to do the same. Your families previous generation had the option to do the same. While you may have to struggle at first, you can do it. Everyone is born with the potential to do great things. In a socialist system our potential is squashed by our government.

no, i'm not saying it can't be done. i'm black and my family is upper middle class, obviously it's not impossible or else we couldn't have gone from being slaves to being upper middle class now. but i think pretending like if you work hard and struggle then it will all work out is wrong. i don't think that simply putting in some hard work is going to get people out of poverty. i think that's under-judging how difficult it is to get out of the cycle of poverty.

there's people who i know, and i just don't see a way out for them. i'm not saying it's impossible, but i just don't really see how it's realistic. to get out of the lower class, you need a job that isn't lower class to begin with. i don't really get how they can even get to the point of getting a middle class job, because they don't have the education. they're competing with people who already have a huge advantage. how do you get the education when you can't afford it? people say how "oh, well you can work hard in school and get scholarships!". well i don't buy that either. because some schools completely suck and are way underfunded and they can't even provide the level of education you need to be in the running for half the scholarships. then people are like "well that's the parents responsibility to work hard to get their kids into a decent school so they can succeed!". but i don't buy that either, because going to another district where the school is better in a lot of cases means you have to move. but you can't move there because you can't afford to live there in the first place. if they could afford to live somewhere other than a poor, crime invested area then they already would be.

i mean i'm pretty big on the whole "your education is what you make it" stance, and i think getting educated is partly peoples own responsibility not solely a school. i have parents who were educated though who could help me...if you're parents are in the same cycle as you then how are they supposed to help you? the same shit happened to them and they couldn't get a education because they couldn't afford to live in the area with the better schools either. it just keeps repeating over and over. i mean there's a billion more elements to it but you get the idea.

plus, working hard i don't think is going to necessarily bring you anything now. my grandparents worked hard and as a result of that we're living ok now. working hard didn't make them not dirt poor then. it helped on down the line.

i'm not against capitalism or for socialism. i just think people under exaggerate how many odds are against someone who's trying to get out of a poverty cycle. i don't think just working hard is enough sometimes. people don't have even close to an equal chance to reach their potential i don't think.

[Uronacid]

no, i'm not saying it can't be done. i'm black and my family is upper middle class, obviously it's not impossible or else we couldn't have gone from being slaves to being upper middle class now. but i think pretending like if you work hard and struggle then it will all work out is wrong. i don't think that simply putting in some hard work is going to get people out of poverty. i think that's under-judging how difficult it is to get out of the cycle of poverty.

there's people who i know, and i just don't see a way out for them. i'm not saying it's impossible, but i just don't really see how it's realistic. to get out of the lower class, you need a job that isn't lower class to begin with. i don't really get how they can even get to the point of getting a middle class job, because they don't have the education. they're competing with people who already have a huge advantage. how do you get the education when you can't afford it? people say how "oh, well you can work hard in school and get scholarships!". well i don't buy that either. because some schools completely suck and are way underfunded and they can't even provide the level of education you need to be in the running for half the scholarships. then people are like "well that's the parents responsibility to work hard to get their kids into a decent school so they can succeed!". but i don't buy that either, because going to another district where the school is better in a lot of cases means you have to move. but you can't move there because you can't afford to live there in the first place. if they could afford to live somewhere other than a poor, crime invested area then they already would be.

i mean i'm pretty big on the whole "your education is what you make it" stance, and i think getting educated is partly peoples own responsibility not solely a school. i have parents who were educated though who could help me...if you're parents are in the same cycle as you then how are they supposed to help you? the same shit happened to them and they couldn't get a education because they couldn't afford to live in the area with the better schools either. it just keeps repeating over and over. i mean there's a billion more elements to it but you get the idea.

plus, working hard i don't think is going to necessarily bring you anything now. my grandparents worked hard and as a result of that we're living ok now. working hard didn't make them not dirt poor then. it helped on down the line.

i'm not against capitalism or for socialism. i just think people under exaggerate how many odds are against someone who's trying to get out of a poverty cycle. i don't think just working hard is enough sometimes. people don't have even close to an equal chance to reach their potential i don't think.

I don't believe I'm "under-exaggerating" anything. I simply stated that it was "difficult" to avoid the long and tedious task of typing out each and every possibility that these people who are in a poverty cycle face. There are many odds against someone in the poverty cycle, but in the end it's up to the individual to change that cycle. In capitalism you're given the opportunity to make the best of your life or waste it, and if you want to waste your life by doing drugs, not educating yourself, etc... then the future generations of your family will probably feel the effects of your choices. I don't feel that society should have to pay for this.

[brooklyneast05]

There are many odds against someone in the poverty cycle, but in the end it's up to the individual to change that cycle. In capitalism you're given the opportunity to make the best of your life or waste it, and if you want to waste your life by doing drugs, not educating yourself, etc... then the future generations of your family will probably feel the effects of your choices. I don't feel that society should have to pay for this.

but what if they didn't do this to themselves? what if no one made bad decisions like doing drugs or something? what if they just worked (hard) at wherever they could find a job, and got whatever education they could afford. they just haven't been able to move up doing that because that's not really enough to move up and they can't get out of the cycle long enough to be able to move up. it just repeats one generation after another.

i don't think it is always that they made a shitty decision somewhere down the line like doing drugs, just like i don't think it's always their fault they don't have the best education. i don't think it's always their "choice" to get a not up to par education.

shrugs, i just don't think working hard always gets you out. it's too much more complex than just going to work. i wish that was the case though.

[Uronacid]

but what if they didn't do this to themselves? what if no one made bad decisions like doing drugs or something? what if they just worked (hard) at wherever they could find a job, and got whatever education they could afford. they just haven't been able to move up doing that because that's not really enough to move up and they can't get out of the cycle long enough to be able to move up. it just repeats one generation after another.

i don't think it is always that they made a shitty decision somewhere down the line like doing drugs, just like i don't think it's always their fault they don't have the best education.

You mean, what if life just took a shit on them? Everything that ever happened to them their life was a series of unfortunate events and there was just nothing they could do about anything? Although it's a rare case, and we certainly feel bad for hardworking people like this who are simply fucked by life. Do you think that either socialism or capitalism could help in that scenario? No system of gov't account for every scenario that presents itself.

[shoryuken]

litt robb ppll...

[brooklyneast05]

shrugs, i'm just thinking of people who have been f*cked since day one. like minorities who got thrown into poverty and are still trying to figure out how to get out. how to get educated when you're stuck somewhere with shitty schools. how to get a college education so you can get a better job when you're family needs you to go to work asap so you can buy food.

i don't get how people are always supposed to find time to get ahead while they're trying to just get by.

[illriginal]

Blame welfare. It makes people lazy and expect hand outs.