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The Bible?, historical acocunt or a political agenda
sadolakced acid
post Jun 10 2005, 12:11 AM
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we all know this book. we've at least seen it in hotel rooms. this is the book with tissue-thin pages, the book that was first printed. this is a book that people rally to.

and it is a political agenda.

in the early years of christianity, there were many, many sects that called themselves chistian. one sect decided they were the real christians, and condemned the rest as false sects.

this sect evolved into the church. In order to make all other sects wrong, they edited the bible. they threw out the parts they didn't like, added parts they liked. The bible is a manual for how to live your life- so, why not add in a bit about who you should give money to?

over the years, the bible evolved as it's editors saw fit. It was changed, in the case of the king james bible, to help conquer ireland.

It was rewritten to support values the political leaders wanted supported.

want a reason to allow slavery? put in a bit about cain and able.

want to be able to get precious farmlands in the middle east? put in a bit about that being the holy land.

the bible, it seems, is nothing more than a written propoganda tool; too far edited from it's original text to be considered anything more than a pamplet that's designed, not to ensure truth of history, and that all sides are protrayed, but to get the godless heathens to convert to christianity.


now; you can either flame me and tell me how i couldn't understand, and cite bible quotes and give me something to laugh at,
or you can prove me wrong with a bit of rational debate.

i'd enjoy it emmensly more if you'd pick the first one, although the second is nice.

have a nice day!
 
Spirited Away
post Jun 10 2005, 12:33 AM
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Quand j'étais jeune...
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Let me laugh at you first... HAHAHAHHAHA another one on religion?!?! GAH! What were you thinking!

Erm, I'll pitch in when someone has a rebuttal.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jun 10 2005, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Jun 10 2005, 12:33 AM)
Let me laugh at you first... HAHAHAHHAHA another one on religion?!?! GAH! What were you thinking!

Erm, I'll pitch in when someone has a rebuttal.
*


i was thinking the debate forum has gotten rather boring lately...
 
Spirited Away
post Jun 10 2005, 12:59 AM
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Quand j'étais jeune...
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QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Jun 10 2005, 12:55 AM)
i was thinking the debate forum has gotten rather boring lately...
*


And nothing would spice it up better than a religion thread? LOL
Alright, since no one's here for the other side yet... I'll try to fill in for them?


How do you know if they "threw out" parts of the Bible? The only editions made to the Bible were for translations... etc.


Yea... I don't think I can do this...
 
fameONE
post Jun 10 2005, 02:03 AM
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Just for the sake of debate and out of sheer boredom, I'm going to pick a fight and use religion as a tool to wreak havoc in the debate forum.

'What is it with you aetheists? I don't understand how you can be so narrowminded and ignorant as to believe that everything about Christianity is wrong, or that the absence of religion in your life allows you to be superior over the pious. How can you tell me, a Christian, what the bible is and what it isn't when you aren't a Christian yourself? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but driving religion into the ground because you don't agree with it is just as bad as me trying to impose my beliefs on you. I swear, you goddamned aetheists make me sick. I find it ironic how you have a God complex and pretending to be masters of theological studies when, in fact, you don't know much about what you talk about at all. The bible is a historical account that has been slightly altered through the course of history. I dare you to go to Jerusalem and tell the people of Israel that the bible is a piece of fiction and what is known as holy land is simply a piece of rock.'

Those were "my words" but they weren't "my words." I'm just pulling something out of my ass so you have something to argue. Personally, I find this topic to be mundane and boring, so, enjoy the debate with the little leprechaun that tells me to burn things.
 
sammi rules you
post Jun 10 2005, 12:01 PM
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i find it pretty sad that we have to be reduced to saying things we don't think just so we won't be bored. mellow.gif ah well, i'll play along.

the bible may have been very much a religious document when it was first made, but since then, it's been altered to fit into certain peoples' preferences. someone doesn't like something and they want everyone to agree with them. they go and interpret the bible and preach what they interpreted and whatever they say, at least some people will believe.

people today are misusing the bible for their own good.
 
Spirited Away
post Jun 10 2005, 01:12 PM
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Quand j'étais jeune...
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QUOTE(touch my monkey @ Jun 10 2005, 12:01 PM)
i find it pretty sad that we have to be reduced to saying things we don't think just so we won't be bored. mellow.gif ah well, i'll play along.
*


Isn't it?


Alright, so it's Brandon and I versus Mr. Acid and Sammi.

Again, where is the proof of 'alterations' you heathens speak of?
 
sammi rules you
post Jun 10 2005, 01:24 PM
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if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?
 
Spirited Away
post Jun 10 2005, 01:36 PM
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Ah, okay I give up. You win. _unsure.gif

Okay, wait, I'll come back with a better response... somehow.
 
sammi rules you
post Jun 10 2005, 01:48 PM
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sweeeeet!!! i beat fae!...for the time being! biggrin.gif

*dances around room at success*
 
karrar
post Jun 10 2005, 01:49 PM
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This is another reason muslims praise there koran . There are no diffrent versions of the Koran .
 
*kryogenix*
post Jun 10 2005, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE(touch my monkey @ Jun 10 2005, 1:24 PM)
if you read different versions of the bible, there are things different about it. some include things against womens' rights and the lot, and more recent versions don't.

if there were no changes, why are there so many versions?
*


links?

I know there are different versions, like King James and such, but I always thought it was difference in translation. There shouldn't be things added and subtracted.

The only things I know of that have been subtracted are the Apocrypha.

QUOTE
  This is another reason muslims praise there koran . There are no diffrent versions of the Koran .


http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm
 
not_for_anything
post Jun 10 2005, 04:14 PM
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Yes but there are original manuscripts. It was Constatine/Catholics who actually rewrote it. But what does it matter if some stories are altered. If you truely belive in god, truely try to live a good life..have good morals..etc than the details dont matter.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jun 10 2005, 04:23 PM
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like the details that people used to justify slavery?

what of the dead sea scrolls? undeniably they should have been put in the bible- but they were not. why? do they have a secret within them?
 
*xcaitlinx*
post Jun 10 2005, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE(BrandonSaunders @ Jun 10 2005, 2:03 AM)
Just for the sake of debate and out of sheer boredom, I'm going to pick a fight and use religion as a tool to wreak havoc in the debate forum.

'What is it with you aetheists? I don't understand how you can be so narrowminded and ignorant as to believe that everything about Christianity is wrong, or that the absence of religion in your life allows you to be superior over the pious. How can you tell me, a Christian, what the bible is and what it isn't when you aren't a Christian yourself? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but driving religion into the ground because you don't agree with it is just as bad as me trying to impose my beliefs on you. I swear, you goddamned aetheists make me sick. I find it ironic how you have a God complex and pretending to be masters of theological studies when, in fact, you don't know much about what you talk about at all. The bible is a historical account that has been slightly altered through the course of history. I dare you to go to Jerusalem and tell the people of Israel that the bible is a piece of fiction and what is known as holy land is simply a piece of rock.'

Those were "my words" but they weren't "my words." I'm just pulling something out of my ass so you have something to argue. Personally, I find this topic to be mundane and boring, so, enjoy the debate with the little leprechaun that tells me to burn things.
*


first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me. WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.
 
XoJennaoX
post Jun 10 2005, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE(caytexo @ Jun 10 2005, 4:32 PM)
first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me.

Sounds to me like you are judging Christians with the same narrowminded behavior you assume they are judging most Atheists with.

QUOTE
WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.
*

You definition of knowledge is a little obscure. Just like a Christian believes there is a God, an Atheist believes there is not. Let me ask you. Is there proof that there isn't a God? If your answer is no then you can't say you actually know more, or know beyond what a Christian believes. So how does believing in something(whether your parents told you to or not) make you a weaker person, but being a skeptic makes you a stronger one?

Anyway back to the bible... I've heard verses translated over and over again into several diferent meanings and teachings, most of them sounding equally convincing. Since it is obvious we will never understand the true meaning (or know for a fact a single translation to be the correct one), it is impossible to conclude if the bible holds true to its historical origin or not.
 
*xcaitlinx*
post Jun 10 2005, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE(XoJennaoX @ Jun 10 2005, 5:28 PM)
Sounds to me like you are judging Christians with the same narrowminded behavior you assume they are judging most Atheists with.
*


not really, im basing my facts on real life experiences. ive never met a christian that hasn't treated me like a weirdo because i dont believe in a trendy religion.
 
*kryogenix*
post Jun 10 2005, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE(caytexo @ Jun 10 2005, 7:02 PM)
not really, im basing my facts on real life experiences. ive never met a christian that hasn't treated me like a weirdo because i dont believe in a trendy religion.
*


people don't find religion because it's trendy you know...
 
sammi rules you
post Jun 10 2005, 10:37 PM
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and the christians you've met probably haven't met an atheist who judged them as narrowminded and ignorant.
 
fameONE
post Jun 11 2005, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE(caytexo @ Jun 10 2005, 3:32 PM)
first of all, it's Atheist. How would you like it if i called your religion 'Ciristianity'? And i find it humourous that you think that atheists are ignorant and narrowminded, when most christians are the ignorant ones. they wont accept anybody elses religion besides their own. if i tell someone that i'm atheist, and they're christian, they look at me akwardly as if im a sinner. they automatically judge me and wonder if there's something wrong with me. WE dont know much about what we're talking about? Please...Christians believe anything that they hear out of that damned book that isn't even prooven to be true. it's called having a mind of your own, and not being a Christian just because my mommy and daddy brainwashed me into thinking that someone above us controls our lives and is always judging us every second of every day. I am a strong enough person to believe in what i believe in and make my own decisions, whether i believe in God or not.
*


Let me get into "White Christian Republican" mode and pwn you.

'You have just proved my theory of atheists being ignorant and narrowminded to be correct. All this talk about brainwashing and conditioning sounds like atheist cynnicism. Nevertheless, I believe in Christianity because of my theological studies and I refuse to let my faith be udnermined by the opinions of some child who won't accept a religion she doesn't agree with.

A trendy religion is it? What's seems to be the trend; someone discovering their life's calling through religion or someone apathetiically rejecting a good thing because they hear some obsure opinion along the way to make them change their mind?

We're debating the bible aren't we? Then, since you're so offended and irate about me being a Christian, drop a bible quote or two that could support your argument about my trendy religion.'

I need to go pray to Allah, brb tongue.gif
 
sadolakced acid
post Jun 11 2005, 01:52 AM
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religion is trendy, christianity most of all.

teenagers in this time period like to label themselves 'born again' christians, because it's trendy.

christianity has always thrived because of the group. when you suffer with others, it's more attactive.

if each christian were to be convinced that they were the last christian on earth and no one supported them, few would retain thier faith. the few that would are the only ones who are christian because of faith, not because it is trendy.

christians are, as history shows, the least accepting of other religions. from the inception of the idea of a christian religion, the various sects warred with each other.

christianity historically isn't a faith based religion. to be a christian you did not merely need to have faith in christ. christianity has been a church based religion. you were a christian by going to church and putting your coins in the collection plate. It was the community of christians that drew people to the religion, not the faith.

now; in order to facilitate these actions, the bible was rewritten. Parts of the bible emphasising a personal relationship with god were removed from the bible. because, if a personal relationship with god was all that was needed, then there would be no point to bishops and popes.

when king james sought to remove catholicism from scotland and turn the place anglican, he had the bible re-written.

the king james bible is not a translation. it is a political rewritting, made for the purpose of turning catholics to the anglican church.

once one bible has been corrupted by political ideals and agendas, all subsequent translations of that bible contains those ideals and agendas.
 
*xcaitlinx*
post Jun 11 2005, 10:17 AM
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Christianity HAS become trendy, because a helluva lot of people are Christian just to be Christian, and know nothing about the religion itself. They base their opinions on what their parents think. i think it's ridiculous.
 
*suddenly she*
post Jun 11 2005, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE(caytexo @ Jun 11 2005, 11:17 AM)
Christianity HAS become trendy, because a helluva lot of people are Christian just to be Christian, and know nothing about the religion itself. They base their opinions on what their parents think. i think it's ridiculous.
*


i see your point, but not the people who are "trendy christians." i'll probably end up meeting a couple of them later on, but it's just difficult for me to understand how a person can claim to be christian without actually studying the lifestyle at all.

just so we don't go mad on this thing, i agree with you, saying that it is ridiculous. _smile.gif recently, i've seen areas (school, neighborhoods, etc) where it is not cool to be christian. for example, in health, our curriculum is based off abstinence. many students believed this was because the author was christian (which i don't know) and therefore dubbed christianity a stupid religion. many other students heard about this and agreed.

QUOTE
now; in order to facilitate these actions, the bible was rewritten. Parts of the bible emphasising a personal relationship with god were removed from the bible. because, if a personal relationship with god was all that was needed, then there would be no point to bishops and popes.

there are separate branches of christianity. i am a part of the protestant branch, and we don't have bishops and popes. since i'm not part of the branch that does have bishops and popes, i can't represent them, but perhaps this shows that (if we are all on the same bible, which may not be likely) catholicism has different beliefs than us.

i'm driving myself into a circle.

and once again, i agree. this debate talk seemingly goes one way while i've been on that way for a long time already. wacko.gif

hm. so. let's keep the hostility down and not offend anyone. respect is a good thing.
 
sadolakced acid
post Jun 11 2005, 03:04 PM
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aye, there are separate branches of chrisitanity! each with thier own version of the bible, no?
 
ghetosmurph
post Jun 11 2005, 09:28 PM
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Which gets into the Catholic Church and the Protostant Revolution, which gets into the difference between lutherans, protostants, baptists, anglicans, catholics, and any other Christian faith!!!!No there were not differnent sects of Christianity and one claimed to be the true church and tht is the Catholic church!!!! you want me to explain just so you can shoot me down, and that is the problem with a lot of the christians who have posted on here so far, they deal with 1 or 2 minor arguments but still loose in the full debate..... I am not fully prepared to rebuttle your full argument at this point therfore i am not going to try to explain myself at this time.... don't worry, i'll be back for more fun time soon!! wink.gif you can count on it.....
 

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