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Illegal Immigration, is there anyone pro-amnesty?
*steve330*
post Jun 27 2007, 02:28 PM
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With the recent Kennedy-Bush alliance (polar opposites at that) for the naturalization of illegal immigrants, a lot of people have come out strongly opposed to the idea and are quite unhappy that bush just brought it back up after the idea was killed.

Is there anyone out there that thinks it should be something that happens? If yes, please explain as I'm curious to see if there is another side (other than the politicians) to this issue and I want to know what makes you see it that way or where your opinions are derived from.

Keeping in mind taxes, social security (haha as if that's going to last), unemployment, and them taking advantage of what's free in the nation (i.e. medicine/education) without putting back into the system.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 27 2007, 04:38 PM
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Well, I consider myself more of a liberal, but it seems like I'm siding more with the conservatives on this. I'm totally against giving them amnesty. We'd just be rewarding them for breaking the law. It's not like the only way a person can enter this country is illegally - the ones that are here had the opportunity to come here the right way. It'd be like a slap in the face just handing them citizenship to the people who entered this country legally. What about back taxes? They shouldnt be able to escape from that.

So if we actually do end up giving all these illegals amnesty, they'll all end up getting social security - something they havent even been paying into. And we all know that it probably wont even be there for our generation already. And then what about welfare and other services? Most of the Mexican adults here in Florida dont even speak enough English to get a decent job - so my guess most of them would easily qualify for welfare and food stamps.

And they're taking American's jobs, seriously. The illegals dont just pick produce anymore. Most of them have moved up to roofing and construction. According to my parents, when they were kids - you saw AMERICANS building homes, and doing roofs. But when companies can pay illegals such low pay, and dont have to give them insurance - why would they hire an American? Everytime I drive past a new subdivision being built or see someone getting a new roof, all of the workers are illegal Mexicans. Oh, and they're doing landscaping too. I have an uncle who's a general contractor, and a cousin who is a head guy for a lawn service - they admit to having nothing but illegals working under them because they can do the work so cheaply. [/rambling]

Please dont get me wrong or anything, I'm definitely not racist. I just cant stand the idea of seeing them being rewarded for breaking the law, and then having to take care of them.

We need to build a huge 20 foot concrete wall across the ENTIRE border, and arm guards with machine guns. That'll stop them from sneaking in. XD.gif
 
*Mercy*
post Jun 29 2007, 03:14 PM
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I dont belive we owe someone who came here ILLEGALLY anything.

Be f**king gratefull that you get 3.25 an hour and have somesort of place to live in.

Im mexican puerto rican and i get called out for "hating" my own because i feel this way,But when my grandmother came over to texas with nothing and from that she worked her way up and then became LEGALIZED.These other people and im not jsut talking about the mexicans, they come here ILLIEGALLY take all the jobs or my personal favorite are the ones (i have reletives like this) who has like 50 f**king kids and they acnt f**king support them so they go on welfare and live off that and rely on that instead of getting on the welfare and getting a job.

And then they have the nerve to flock up and wave around their countries flags in america and have the nerve to st there and demand more from americans?Thats bullshit.We owe you diddly SHIT.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 29 2007, 04:41 PM
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^ Kudos to you for standing up against some of your own people. I bet the criticism gets old. I've had alot of people call me racist for my opinions, but I too cant stand the idea of rewarding people like that.

Yeah, it annoys the crap out of me to see them protesting on tv, demanding for their "rights". Only CITIZENS deserve rights. I'm not against giving them medical care if they're dying or something, but that's about it. Sorry for mostly just referring to Mexicans, but where I live, they are the only ones that are really illegal. And its not because they're Mexicans... I could care less what color their skin is.

I think we need to work on sending them back home, and then letting them come back in legally if they choose to do so.

The only issue is though, without them here... picking our produce, we're going to have to get it elsewhere, which would end up costing us waaay more. But I surely wouldnt mind paying more... but alot of people are afraid of that.
 
medic
post Jun 29 2007, 04:44 PM
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As long as congress keeps kissing ass on the subject, it will never happen. They do a good job about it too, it has died twice to give them amnesty.

They came here illegally, they do not deserve to be paid minimum wage, and they sure as hell don't deserve the right to ignore INS like that damn DVD tells them too. They are not American Citizens, so they do not have those rights. I also hate how I am paying taxes and I see "illegal" immigrants at school and in the town over, and it PISSES me off to know that I have to pay to go to school, and they get in free, I have to pay for food at lunch, they get it for free, and I have to pay for living in this country, and they get a free GOD DAMN ride.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 29 2007, 04:47 PM
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^ Nevermind, you edited. _smile.gif

But just as a side note, I'm so disappointed in Ted Kennedy siding with Bush on the issue. sad.gif
 
medic
post Jun 29 2007, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 29 2007, 04:47 PM) *
^ Nevermind, you edited. _smile.gif


That I did, LOL. I do it at least once to all my posts.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 29 2007, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE(medic @ Jun 29 2007, 05:48 PM) *
That I did, LOL. I do it at least once to all my posts.

I originally got the impression that you were disappointed that it didnt pass, but I realized that wasnt the case as soon as you edited lol. laugh.gif
 
1angel3
post Jun 29 2007, 06:31 PM
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I really do not care for them. I agree with all of you. One thing I really do not like is you have to learn their language to have more job opportunity because jobs want someone that is by lingo and that is ok. I feel they need to learn english. I hate that this country caters to them. Seems like everything you buy rather it's a car, cell phone, or hair products, etc. You can look at the back of the product or readers manual and they all it translated in Spanish. That's what I mean when I say this country caters to them and it's not fair.

They need to pay taxes. It seems like health care costs went up since they came.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 29 2007, 07:26 PM
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^ Yeah, they're killing us when it comes to healthcare. It makes it more expensive for us to go to the hospital, because every time they break a finger or have some kind of minor illness, they go for free. Hospitals cant deny them care. So when they and even alot of actual Americans do that, it raises prices.

And I dont know how much it costs in other areas, but I've heard that it costs around eight thousand dollars to educate each child per year in the public school system. So what about all these illegals sending their kids to our schools, when they dont even help pay into the system? Could you imagine how much better our schools would be if instead of them taking the money, we put it towards higher teacher salaries? Or even on other things? We'd be able to give kids a better education.
 
1angel3
post Jun 29 2007, 08:17 PM
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^^ I agree. You know their strategy? They come here and have all these babies and we cannot kick them out because the babies are American citizens. That is why you see almost every Mexican couple with ten kids with them.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 29 2007, 09:20 PM
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^ Yep, that's exactly what they're doing. They just keep on coming because they know we'll give them all these handouts. To me they're just Mexico's trash. Mexico isnt that bad, and you dont see their average citizens trying to leave.
 
1angel3
post Jun 29 2007, 09:49 PM
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^^ Thank you. I agree 100%
 
lojay
post Jun 29 2007, 10:07 PM
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To be completely honest, I don't care if immigration is legal or illegal. Either way, people are still going to immigrate, and that's a good thing. If it were not for all the illegal citizens and immigrants, then who would do all the dirty jobs that no one wants to do?

I mean there are a lot of stereotypes about different cultures doing different work. I'm not racist at all, and don't take this as racism, but stereotypically, there are the Arabs who work at the 7-11s. There are the Mexicans who cut the lawns and do all the landscaping. There are Punjabis who drive taxicabs. Society has placed these races to fit with these jobs, or at least that is the mindset of people who live in my area. Granted, not all Mexicans, Punjabis, Arabs, etc. are immigrants, many aren’t. I know this post will make at least someone mad, but it is a debate, and I’m entitled to my own opinion, and my opinion is that if these immigrants were not here then who would do these jobs? How many so-called average looking Americans (based on society’s views) do you see driving taxicabs? How many people are going to be truly dedicated to landscaping? I have family that has other family who are not legal citizens, and they are Slovaks who come from Czech. They do landscaping and work really hard because they need the money to send it back home to support the rest of their family.

I think that if immigrants are willing to work hard just to help out their families back home, then they should be allowed to. After all, no one else really wants to do their jobs, because the pay is low and it is hard work.

As for healthcare, education, social security, etc... I believe that as long as they are in America they should be able to abide by Human Rights. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 2,
QUOTE
Everyone is entitles to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, or other status.
[Article cut short due to lengthiness. They are in America... They have the right to their freedoms simply by being a human being, as stated above, their race, colour, etc. doesn't change anything -- they still have their freedoms.

Article 13;
QUOTE
1. Everyone has the right of movement and residence within the borders of each State. 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
So if it is stated clearly in the Declaration of Human Rights that anyone is able to leave their country, then I don’t really see the problem, as long as they do not harm the country they enter.

For Education…
QUOTE
Article 26, number 1. Everyone has the right to education.
Etc., again cut short due to lengthiness. They are allowed to be educated. If they can support that education, then there is no harm in putting them in our schools as long as they can follow.

This post is way too long. Blah. My apologies.

Err, edit; After re-reading the posts before me... I would have to agree with 1angel3 that they should pay taxes. I guess if I believe they should be able to obtain Human Rights, they should be equal to the American citizen in paying taxes as well.
 
*Elba*
post Jun 30 2007, 12:10 AM
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They're already here and there's no way we're going to kick all of them out. Last year, when I was getting Medi-Cal, I realized you don't have to be an American Citizen to receive that aid from California. I thought it was a bit ridiculous.

I'm kind of for it. If they're already here, then they should pay their taxes and all that like we do.
 
medic
post Jun 30 2007, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE(elbaliava @ Jun 29 2007, 10:07 PM) *
To be completely honest, I don't care if immigration is legal or illegal. Either way, people are still going to immigrate, and that's a good thing. If it were not for all the illegal citizens and immigrants, then who would do all the dirty jobs that no one wants to do?

I mean there are a lot of stereotypes about different cultures doing different work. I'm not racist at all, and don't take this as racism, but stereotypically, there are the Arabs who work at the 7-11s. There are the Mexicans who cut the lawns and do all the landscaping. There are Punjabis who drive taxicabs. Society has placed these races to fit with these jobs, or at least that is the mindset of people who live in my area. Granted, not all Mexicans, Punjabis, Arabs, etc. are immigrants, many aren’t. I know this post will make at least someone mad, but it is a debate, and I’m entitled to my own opinion, a
nd my opinion is that if these immigrants were not here then who would do these jobs? How many so-called average looking Americans (based on society’s views) do you see driving taxicabs? How many people are going to be truly dedicated to landscaping? I have family that has other family who are not legal citizens, and they are Slovaks who come from Czech. They do landscaping and work really hard because they need the money to send it back home to support the rest of their family.

I think that if immigrants are willing to work hard just to help out their families back home, then they should be allowed to. After all, no one else really wants to do their jobs, because the pay is low and it is hard work.

As for healthcare, education, social security, etc... I believe that as long as they are in America they should be able to abide by Human Rights. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 2, [Article cut short due to lengthiness. They are in America... They have the right to their freedoms simply by being a human being, as stated above, their race, colour, etc. doesn't change anything -- they still have their freedoms.

Article 13; So if it is stated clearly in the Declaration of Human Rights that anyone is able to leave their country, then I don’t really see the problem, as long as they do not harm the country they enter.

For Education… Etc., again cut short due to lengthiness. They are allowed to be educated. If they can support that education, then there is no harm in putting them in our schools as long as they can follow.

This post is way too long. Blah. My apologies.

Err, edit; After re-reading the posts before me... I would have to agree with 1angel3 that they should pay taxes. I guess if I believe they should be able to obtain Human Rights, they should be equal to the American citizen in paying taxes as well.


The Joy about what you stated above is that the long list of United States Immigration Acts have actually put those which you quoted out of effect.

Also, that is a UN paper. If we all did what the UN said, all the conflicts in the world that are going on now would not be.
 
*Mercy*
post Jun 30 2007, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE(1angel3 @ Jun 30 2007, 01:17 AM) *
^^ I agree. You know their strategy? They come here and have all these babies and we cannot kick them out because the babies are American citizens. That is why you see almost every Mexican couple with ten kids with them.

False,They used to be able to do that.But as of 1995 even if you marry a american citizen or have kids that are born american,you still can be deported.

The real reason why mexican familys have many kids lies in making sons to pass on the family name and because mexico is pro-large family if thats how you want to put it.

QUOTE(Elba @ Jun 30 2007, 05:10 AM) *
I'm kind of for it. If they're already here, then they should pay their taxes and all that like we do.

The issue with that is alot of them will find a way to evade it.So we will still have people falling through the cracks.
 
*steve330*
post Jun 30 2007, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE(Elba @ Jun 30 2007, 12:10 AM) *
They're already here and there's no way we're going to kick all of them out. Last year, when I was getting Medi-Cal, I realized you don't have to be an American Citizen to receive that aid from California. I thought it was a bit ridiculous.

I'm kind of for it. If they're already here, then they should pay their taxes and all that like we do.


Oh they're all over the place in Texas too. If they get put into the system and have to pay taxes, some will find ways around it as Mercy said. Then they'll start to want social security, which is already f**ked up enough as it is. And although I speak a little bit of spanish, I don't want to relearn it and become fluent again lol.
 
lojay
post Jun 30 2007, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE(medic @ Jun 30 2007, 02:52 AM) *
The Joy about what you stated above is that the long list of United States Immigration Acts have actually put those which you quoted out of effect.

Also, that is a UN paper. If we all did what the UN said, all the conflicts in the world that are going on now would not be.


I said it was what I would like to see happen, not what I actually thought would happen. Haha. Obviously my opinion and viewpoints are far different compared to the government. Easily if it was up to U.N. we probably wouldn't have as many problems. Easier said than done though.
 
kimmytree
post Jun 30 2007, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE(elbaliava @ Jun 29 2007, 11:07 PM) *
To be completely honest, I don't care if immigration is legal or illegal. Either way, people are still going to immigrate, and that's a good thing. If it were not for all the illegal citizens and immigrants, then who would do all the dirty jobs that no one wants to do?

I mean there are a lot of stereotypes about different cultures doing different work. I'm not racist at all, and don't take this as racism, but stereotypically, there are the Arabs who work at the 7-11s. There are the Mexicans who cut the lawns and do all the landscaping. There are Punjabis who drive taxicabs. Society has placed these races to fit with these jobs, or at least that is the mindset of people who live in my area. Granted, not all Mexicans, Punjabis, Arabs, etc. are immigrants, many aren't. I know this post will make at least someone mad, but it is a debate, and I'm entitled to my own opinion, and my opinion is that if these immigrants were not here then who would do these jobs? How many so-called average looking Americans (based on society's views) do you see driving taxicabs? How many people are going to be truly dedicated to landscaping? I have family that has other family who are not legal citizens, and they are Slovaks who come from Czech. They do landscaping and work really hard because they need the money to send it back home to support the rest of their family.

I think that if immigrants are willing to work hard just to help out their families back home, then they should be allowed to. After all, no one else really wants to do their jobs, because the pay is low and it is hard work.

As for healthcare, education, social security, etc... I believe that as long as they are in America they should be able to abide by Human Rights. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 2, [Article cut short due to lengthiness. They are in America... They have the right to their freedoms simply by being a human being, as stated above, their race, colour, etc. doesn't change anything -- they still have their freedoms.

Article 13; So if it is stated clearly in the Declaration of Human Rights that anyone is able to leave their country, then I don't really see the problem, as long as they do not harm the country they enter.

For Education… Etc., again cut short due to lengthiness. They are allowed to be educated. If they can support that education, then there is no harm in putting them in our schools as long as they can follow.

This post is way too long. Blah. My apologies.

Err, edit; After re-reading the posts before me... I would have to agree with 1angel3 that they should pay taxes. I guess if I believe they should be able to obtain Human Rights, they should be equal to the American citizen in paying taxes as well.

Most of the "Arabs" you're referring to dont work in the 7-11's - alot of them OWN them, and other gas stations. Not just Arabs, but Middle Easterners in General. They get all kinds of tax breaks. Either way though, they're usually LEGAL.

That's what's killing us though - they're getting all kinds of hand outs and benefits... and just sending it all back home. They dont even have to pay income taxes, which is alot of money. The pay is low because businesses know they can pay them low wages. They dont have to give them medical insurance, or have to worry about workers comp. Everything's under the table - they dont even get actual "pay checks"... at least around here. They're usually just paid in cash. Besides picking produce, there are still some Americans left who do the same jobs they do. Roofing, landscaping, construction. They just alot of times end up getting fired or cant get the job to begin with, because they can pay a illegal Mexican half of what they would have to pay them. Dont even start to think that equals lower prices for the customer, because it doesnt. That's just more profits for the actual employer.

The Declaration of Human rights is referring to CITIZENS, right? How would they apply to someone who ILLEGALY entered our country?
 
kimmytree
post Jun 30 2007, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(steve330 @ Jun 30 2007, 09:48 AM) *
Oh they're all over the place in Texas too. If they get put into the system and have to pay taxes, some will find ways around it as Mercy said. Then they'll start to want social security, which is already f**ked up enough as it is. And although I speak a little bit of spanish, I don't want to relearn it and become fluent again lol.

Yeah, and they're practically invading Florida. Farming is still a fairly big industry, so they flock here to pick the strawberries and oranges. And then they eventually get tired of those jobs, and move on to other things.

My God, if they got social security, that would INSURE that it wont be there for us when we're older.

I agree - there's already tons of billboards and other things in Spanish in alot of places... I cant even imagine what it would be like if they got amnesty. Watch the Spanish language take over. I have no problem with having to learn it in school, but it just bugs me that its needed for alot of jobs these days. ENGLISH is our official language, not Spanish. We need to stop catering to people.
 
lojay
post Jun 30 2007, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE(kimmytree @ Jun 30 2007, 12:45 PM) *
Most of the "Arabs" you're referring to dont work in the 7-11's - alot of them OWN them, and other gas stations. Not just Arabs, but Middle Easterners in General. They get all kinds of tax breaks. Either way though, they're usually LEGAL.

That's what's killing us though - they're getting all kinds of hand outs and benefits... and just sending it all back home. They dont even have to pay income taxes, which is alot of money. The pay is low because businesses know they can pay them low wages. They dont have to give them medical insurance, or have to worry about workers comp. Everything's under the table - they dont even get actual "pay checks"... at least around here. They're usually just paid in cash. Besides picking produce, there are still some Americans left who do the same jobs they do. Roofing, landscaping, construction. They just alot of times end up getting fired or cant get the job to begin with, because they can pay a illegal Mexican half of what they would have to pay them. Dont even start to think that equals lower prices for the customer, because it doesnt. That's just more profits for the actual employer.

The Declaration of Human rights is referring to CITIZENS, right? How would they apply to someone who ILLEGALY entered our country?


Yeah... The whole 7-11 example wasn't the best, I admit. I was tired, and still tried to get my point across, sadly I merged the ideas of stereotypical jobs and society's illegal races jobs. No excuse, but sorry for that mix-up. There's still the idea of taxi drivers and landscapers, though, that's a given. Especially landscapers; my town is full of them.

Yes, they are getting hand outs and benefits; I later said I believe they should pay some sort of taxes. And as for low pay, cash pay checks, etc, I'm completely aware of that because in my last job the entire kitchen was Illegal Mexicans from Costa Rica. Our pay checks were in cash. However, they still had money taken out for taxes. I'm not sure how that worked out, I tried to stay out of their business and do my job, but hearing about them being paid in cash is nothing new to me. Also, I don't see anything wrong with these people sending their money back home. What people do with their own money that they earned is their own business. As for them being able to just obtain money without having to deal with taxes and such, yeah that's bull. None of what you said in your second paragraph is new to hear. No offense, I'm not trying to be a bitch at all.

As for the DoHR, yes, it applies to citizens, however, if immigrants would just get a red card, then they should be allowed to their Human Rights. Or at least I think so. I also thing that Human Rights applying to only citizens is kind of ridiculous, considering that they are human rights, not citizen rights. However, human rights vs. citizen rights and the idea of immigrants "just getting a red card" [which is idealistic] is slightly off topic. I tend to drift a lot.
 
*Elba*
post Jun 30 2007, 01:25 PM
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So how do they go around it?
 
*Mercy*
post Jun 30 2007, 01:35 PM
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Get around taxes? Easy.
You cant filetaxes if you dont have a green card or proof to show you are a citizen.

Geting healthcare?super easy
Anyone and everyone who makes less money is eligleble for their state issued healthcare.

Housing? Section 8 is eligle for everyone under a certain income braquet.Some will find ways to try and fake a green card.


How do i know all of this?My uncle got the f**k thrown out of the US for pulling all this shit.And i really dont think he was the only one.
 
*karmakiller*
post Jun 30 2007, 01:35 PM
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Whether they're here legally or illegally, they're still going to be here. I honestly think that we need to revise what someone needs to do to become a citizen. A lot of what's happening with the immigrants from Mexico is like history repeating it's self, because the same kind of things happened to people coming through Ellis Island.
 

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