UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE., just because everyone else does it... Rating Options

[kryogenix]

Yes, I do.

If someone's house burns down, they can't demand that other people pay to rebuild it when they don't have fire insurance. If someone crashes their car and they aren't insured, they can't force people to buy them a new one.

Why is health insurance any different? Do you think it's ethical to take people's money at gunpoint?

[Blyat]

My mum has a friend, who is a doctor that lives in Canada
Hence: who has universal healthcare

and he quote, " No one really has no idea how bad of an idea it is"

That's all I can say

Plus that means more people per doctor, with less pay for them and there aren't enough employed doctors to care for everyone in the U.S

[brooklyneast05]

the difference between health care, food and clothing is that health care is a necessity. with obesity being one of the most important health issues in the usa, lack of food isn't quite the immediate problem. it may be unfair for some people who can't afford expensive clothes but that certainly isn't a major problem.

man i duno i was rooting for you but this really killed your argument. food isn't a necessity because some people in the US are fat? that's like the worst reason i've ever heard. i'm not fat. most people i know aren't fat. food is about 3567896545678 of a more immediate problem to my daily survival than health care insurance is.

most people in the US have food (not all), but likewise most people in the US have health insurance too.



i been reading about health care all morning, idk what i think still.


who regulates the rates? i don't know if i'm missing something. we have to buy insurance, but we can't regulate their rates so they can just keep bumping them up non stop? how is that different than what insurance companies have already been doing?

[iRapediCarly]

Why is health insurance any different?

Well, the value of life =/= materialistic things

[iRapediCarly]

correction. hong kong.

...which is innn CHINAAAA

there aren't enough employed doctors to care for everyone in the U.S

great, more facts with no backup, you can't just throw random things you think is right

[Tomates]

^what has that got to do with anything?

the delay of the passing of this bill is probably why the USA's HDI is still behind many european countries.

health care is a merit good, high demand and low supply. it's stupid that most of the USA's health care is in the private sector, since it doesn't help to protect the people with lower incomes.

It has to do with something because its talking about health care and this topic is about health care.

Also did you guys hear it got sent back?

[iRapediCarly]

It has to do with something because its talking about health care and this topic is about health care.

Also did you guys hear it got sent back?

Yeah, it really got sent back

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8583350.stm

Barack Obama signs landmark US healthcare bill into law

[datass]

...which is innn CHINAAAA

yes its regionally part of china and your point being is?

man i duno i was rooting for you but this really killed your argument. food isn't a necessity because some people in the US are fat? that's like the worst reason i've ever heard. i'm not fat. most people i know aren't fat. food is about 3567896545678 of a more immediate problem to my daily survival than health care insurance is.

my point was that i think there isn't an immediate problem of lack of food in the usa, as opposed to the lack of healthcare for the public. last time i checked close to 15% of the population do not have proper health care insurance. correct me if i'm wrong?

i've read up more on the new health care reform, and im starting to see both sides to it. in the economic side, i can see that the reform can cause great deals of problems to insurance companies. it will likely unemployment in the insurance industry. insurance price will likely increase too. taxes will also increase, obviously, and im thinking that may be the main reason why some people are opposed to this reform?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/25/healt...sics/index.html

1. Health insurance companies can't discriminate against you because you have a pre-existing condition.

well i have mixed feelings about this one. i mean, if you were poor, had a pre-existing condition, then you were basically f*cked. however i guess the downside would be for the insurance companies, again, since having to cover high risk people must be damaging to their budget.

strange thing i still dont understand is how can the usa be the only one industrialized country that still hasn't adopted a universal health care system?

[Tomates]

Yeah, it really got sent back

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8583350.stm

well...it did before. Of course i'm saying this like...2-3 days later.

[kryogenix]

Well, the value of life =/= materialistic things

So again I ask, what about the basic necessities of life then? Should the government give everyone free food? Clothing? Housing?

Keep in mind, the government's push to allow everyone to be a homeowner is a big part of why the economy collapsed.

While it's nice to want to give everyone healthcare, the government is not some magical man in a hot air balloon that can conjure wonderful things that it bestows upon the people of the land. The money to provide those things has to come from someone, and if the government needs money to provide things, it has to take it, usually from the most productive people in the country. Furthermore, even the wealthiest governments have trouble meeting the demands of their citizens. We are $12 trillion in debt, there is no hope for us to be able to provide everyone with healthcare.

That doesn't mean I don't give a shit about people's health. Personally, I'd like to see the government foster an environment were healthcare becomes so cheap that everyone can afford basic care. When costs go down, everyone wins.

[iRapediCarly]

So again I ask, what about the basic necessities of life then? Should the government give everyone free food? Clothing? Housing?

Those are attainable things by the common person. Liver cancer isn't cured by going to your local 7/11

[kryogenix]

Housing is attainable by the common person?

[iRapediCarly]

Yeah, homeless shelters and up

[kryogenix]

Band-aids and Tylenol then.

[iRapediCarly]

Those don't help with Torn ACLs. You can keep denying it James, but we both know the physiological health > everything else

[kryogenix]

And that's exactly why I want government out of healthcare.

[iRapediCarly]

Then healthcare goes to only for those who can afford it. What happens when all surgeries become 100k+ to perform?

[kryogenix]

What happens when all surgeries become 100k+ to perform? OK, we'll try it your way. Everyone gets free healthcare. 60 million surgeries are performed every year, so multiply $100k * 60 million = $6 trillion. To put this in perspective, the GDP of the United States is about $14 Trillion.

That means about 40 cents from every dollar earned in this country would have to be taxed to pay for everyone's surgery alone. Of course, the GDP wouldn't stay that high because so much of everyone's money would be going towards healthcare rather than buying other shit. Also, if taxes had to be raised to pay for that, people would leave this country, and we'd sink pretty fast.

We can't afford any of this shit. Stop the wars, stop the welfare, stop the government.

[iRapediCarly]

OR if there weren't free healthcare, no one would be treated except for a few, and millions of people would die. So I guess we can agree on that being not a good option either way. But your whole pull-yourselfs-up-by-your-bootstraps ideology seems just a little too extreme for the non-privilege

oh im also in favor of money too so vote plz but your gonna have to come to CA
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/0...ource=feedblitz

[kryogenix]

it's not a pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps ideology as much as it is a let's not f*ck up our entire country by forcing us to pay for something we can't possibly hope to afford in a million years ideology.

also, you say a privileged few get surgery in a private system. yet, in countries with public healthcare, only a privileged few get treatment and the rest are left to die on waiting lists. supply is still limited; you can't fool the free market.

if the outcome is the same, i'd pick the choice where the country doesn't go bankrupt (or in our case, more bankrupt)

[Tomates]

correction. hong kong.

Isn't Hong Kong part of China though? Or at leat it has been since 1997.

Until 1997, and the Hong Kong handover, Hong Kong was a colony of the United Kingdom, ruled by a governor. Today, Hong Kong is a part of China, although this comes with a biblical size of caveats

[brooklyneast05]

i think you're taking her way too literal.

[kryogenix]

Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region of China, so while they are technically part of China, they have a great of autonomy from mainland China. If I was from Hong Kong, I'd want the distinction to be made between me and mainland Chinese. Taiwan is also part of China, but pretty much every Taiwanese person identifies as Taiwanese rather than just plain Chinese.

Hong Kong also is ranked #1 in the world for the freest economy, which contributes to their economic success.

[Tomates]

i think you're taking her way too literal.

I was just saying. Besides i don't think i was the only one saying that she lived in China.

[datass]

I was just saying. Besides i don't think i was the only one saying that she lived in China.

and this matters because? you sound whiny when you say you're not the only one. dont be hating because we're the 2nd healthiest place in the world with a very well developed healthcare system.

According to the Institute of Medicine of the United States National Academies, the United States is the "only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage" (i.e. some kind of insurance).[20][21] The same Institute of Medicine report notes that "Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States." [20] while a 2009 Harvard study published in the American Journal of Public Health found a much higher figure of more than 44,800 excess deaths annually in the United States due to Americans lacking health insurance.[22][23]

quoted from wikipedia.