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Hazing, Should something be done about this?
Vozedale
post May 28 2005, 06:30 PM
Post #1


There is no cure for the heart of tearless eyes. -James Hall
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Hazing, as you may or may not know, is where people are abused by older kids or by higher ranking members of a group. This occurs in middle school (although least frequently), high school, colleges (especially fraternities and soroities), and in the military. Many of these abuses occur as an initiation ritual, which is so the new or younger member will be accepted and ready for membership. This abuse is illegal in 44 states. The states not included are Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Hawaii, Wyoming, and South Dakota.

I will emphasize here that the young adults that being hazed are often letting this happen because of fear of even worse punishment for trying to escape and out of a desire to belong. Psychology emphasizes that people will do a lot just for a feeling of belonging. It is biologically rooted in each and everyone of us.

Section 1 will include some disturbing examples of hazing I found on a site. The site emphasizes that these stories and pictures are sexually erotic, the males are enjoying these experiences, and this should be arousing for women. Although some of the material on the site may fit into this description, I do NOT believe these males are enjoying this. Here is there interpretation:

quote: This site does not focus on BDSM activity. We do not promote brutality and physical harm to men. There of course is often a power and control element when a nude person is fully exposed to a clothed person of the opposite sex. This is an integral part of the erotica surrounding many of the stories and pictures posted, and much erotic enjoyment is found in this this aspect. In addition, the control may be accentuated through the woman's enjoyment of embarrassing and humiliating the nude man, which if not overdone can be a very enjoyable experience for both the man and those observing the situation.

I feel that the interpreting of these hazing experiences sends out these messages:
1. Males always enjoy being humilated and embarrassed through their naked bodies.
2. That males enjoy having their privacy invaded and their sexual acts publicly observed. As well as male enjoying being FORCED to do these sexual acts publicly.
3. That there is nothing wrong with discriminating against the size of male genitals.
(I have made a previous post where I state my opinion on why size is not important.)
Some Facts Against Size
4. That hazing in a sexual context is provoking and enjoyable for males.
Although I don't believe the site intends to send out these messages, I feel that is what acceptance of these initiation rituals imply, and I also emphasis that ALL of these messages are very wrong.

IF YOU ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 18, I ENCOURAGE YOU NOT TO READ SECTION 1. This information would be emotionally disturbing for most people. I am 18 and this information disturbs me deeply. I am a person who cares deeply for others. This information, as well as others, have made me very upset and I've cried reading it.
IF YOU ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 18, I ENCOURAGE YOU TO SKIP TO SECTION 2 AND 3. Section 2 will contain opinion that are for hazing (pro-hazing). While Section 3 will contain my opinion and a link to a site that will give stories of hazing, and although they may make you feel angry or disgusted, these stories are much less disturbing, and are especially less disturbing on a sexual level that those in Section 1 are.

Section 1 : Disturbing Stories of Hazing

I will not give a link to this site, as it shows explictly nude males.

I am going to quote and describe some of the material I've seen here.

QUOTE
The history of male athletes being completely nude in front of women goes back thousands of years to ancient Greece and the Olympics when all Olympian athletes competed nude. Fortunately for many women, although such practices have died out, team initiation rituals are alive all over the planet. In the photo to the left, a team member is surrounded by women and is then "de-pantsed", meaning another teammate comes from behind and pulls his shorts and jock strap to his knees. Evidently in this situation, the initiation ritual requires him to leave his pants at his knees providing the ladies with an opportunity to get a prolonged view of his cock and [butt] while they laugh at his embarrassment.


One of the first things I would like to emphasize is that all the males in these hazing experiences that I give her are young adults, many being 18 or 19 years of age.

This example of hazing shows just how cruel hazing can be. I don't see how someone could support something like this. In the picture, you can very easily tell the athlete is frightened, as well as completely humilated and is not enjoying this. I would also like to emphasize that the athlete is faced with a fear of greater punishment for trying to stop this and will not be admitted to this athletic group if he does not go through this cruel process.

QUOTE
Various colleges hold similar initiations in this part of Europe. Here guys are brought on stage and are required to strip for the entire school. As you can see, these girls are loving the viewing opportunity. . . . Despite the attempts of the athletes to conceal their privates during the elephant march, it is to no avail as the march is a prelude to even more exposure. . . . The finale occurs when the men must line up on stage, backs to the the women. They are then instructed to put their hands on their heads and leave them there. . . . After giving the ladies a naked butt show the athletes are instructed to walk in a circle keeping there hands on their heads. . . . Finally, with hands still on their heads they strut their stuff for the ladies. Each guy must walk to the front of the stage facing the audience thereby giving the women an opportunity to view the d**k of every athlete, thereby providing the ultimate truth as to which guy truly does have the longest penis and biggest pair of balls. They strut for a good while allowing the women plenty of time to get an eyeful as well as some great pictures.


As this is an initiation, these athletes again have unfair consequences for not participating.

I think it is disgusting to discrimate against size like that.

QUOTE
Nollningen is a Swedish college initiation ritual in which the entire school particpates, including faculty. During the initiation the Nolls (freshmen) play games and have ceremonies in which many of them are forced to strip completely naked, much to the delight of the girls present. To the chagrin of the guys, although the girls participate they never strip naked but may sometimes undress down to panties and bras


Notice that it does say FORCED and that the faculty partcipates and supports this initiation ritual. This might not bother all the guys, but I am sure there are plenty who do not want to this.

These next examples were submitted by people to the site. Unfortunately, the worst is yet to come...

QUOTE
    Sorority Judging the Pledges
    Story by Michelle

    I just stumbled on to this site and realized you'd like a story I posted elsewhere. This actually happened at a major university in the south in the mid 1980s. There was a fraternity house that routinely performed a ritual the last night of Hell Week. Our entire sorority was usually invited to participate each year, and all sisters, including our new pledges, would required to attend.

    On the night of the ritual, we would be lead into the large den of the fraternity. There would be rows of chairs for us to sit in and watch the ceremony, with the front rows reserved for the girls. The new fraternity recruits, usually about 15 or so, would be lead into the large den of the frat house and instructed to stand in a row in front of us. The young guys would have towels wrapped around themselves. When the towels were removed we laughed hysterically seeing that they all wore athletic jock strops with the fraternity insignia over their crotches. Wearing nothing but the jock straps, they would be told to recite sayings of allegiance to the fraternity and would be asked various questions as to why they wanted to join. Upon satisfactory answers, they were instructed to collectively turn and face the fraternity insignia above the fireplace and recite the pledge to the fraternity. When they turned we would giggle at the awkward sight of their exposed butts facing. After their pledge to the fraternity and with their backs still facing us, they were ordered to take off the jock straps.

    The pledges were then ordered to turn around. They would usually be grasping their manhood hiding it from us. One of the frat brothers would be lecturing the recruits about loyalty to the fraternity and that they were always expected to be sincere in trust and honesty, and never "to hide anything" from their brothers or sisters. This was the segue for their next instruction, which was to stand at attention with both hands to their sides allowing everyone, including the sisters, to view their manhood. The eyes of my sisters were wide open with big smiles as the recruits stood completely naked with genitals dangling just a few feet in front of us. Many of the girls, especially the freshmen, had seen few cocks in their life. For us it gave us an opportunity to check out how guys' dicks varied, especially in the way of size.

    Then, the frat brother giving orders would say something like (if I remember correctly) "This fraternity holds a strong legacy, it takes balls to stay in this fraternity, big balls". Then he would go one by one down the line presenting each pledge to the sorority girls. The pledges were told to hold their penises against their stomachs and the frat brother would say something like "Sisters, this is Scott Jensen. Ladies, please look at Scott's balls and tell us if you think they're big enough for this fraternity".

    He was then instructed to hold his balls in the palm of his hand, presenting them to us for inspection. As we looked down at his balls we would say something like "yes, they are big enough", or simply give a thumbs up. Some of the girls were as embarrassed as the boys, but all were grinning widely or laughing.

    The last step was the ceremonial spanking ritual. The pledges, still naked, would be allowed to chose the girl to spank them. They would proceed to a chair in front of the fireplace, bend over with their hands on the chair and butts facing us. The girls would give five hard swats with a paddle, and if they weren't hard enough, they'd be instructed to do it again. Most girls started with a light tap, but the brothers kept her there until the swats made the respective pledge's butt crimson red.

    The recruits would stand in line facing us one last time and instructed to thank us for spanking them. Then they would be allowed to wrap the towel around themselves. This was a ritual that continued every year even after I had left, and would involve different sororities, all sworn to the Greek code of silence. If anyone knows if it is still occurring, please let me know as this would make for a great alumni event!


QUOTE
    Sorority Girl Reflects on Her Experiences
    Story by Anonymous Contributor

    I used to be very skeptical of the fraternity initiation stories I read in which women were present as my fraternity buddies often told me nothing of this ilk ever happened with their specific fraternity. But, as I've learned, some did it routinely. My beliefs were changed by a young girl I met recently who attended a college up north. The story she told me was incredible, not because it is so different than the others, but she was very sincere and credible with no reason to lie or alter the story. I pressed her for details and we discussed the rituals at length, although I know she could discern more than a passing interest on my part.

    The fraternity was reportedly Lambda Chi, and anyone that is/was part of Lambda Chi is welcomed to comment (it happened only about 5 years ago). Lambda Chi has over 300 chapters, and as with any Greek organization, each chapter varies considerably in initiation practices; hence, this is not necessarily reflective of their standard practices. This particular chapter had an initiation process in which an entire sorority house was invited to watch, and the sorority was different each year. It was held in a large room and the lights were out, only lit by many candles. In the specific ceremony she was witnessing, the girls were far enough into the shadows such that they could not be readily seen. She indicated that her entire sorority was present at the initiation, which was 60 girls, and the girls had to keep absolutely quiet. Further, she indicated the ritual was at 6:00 a.m. with the pledges having had very little sleep.

    The male pledges (about 15) were told to strip completely naked then were led out in single file with their right hands on the shoulder of the pledge in front of them. Without knowing the girls were present, they were then told to turn facing away from the audience. The ceremony proceeded with each pledge being asked a barrage of questions that she said were extremely private and often humiliating to the pledge. According to her, many of the fraternity brothers and sorority sisters took great delight not only in the humiliation of these young men by these questions, but more importantly having them humiliated while standing completely naked in front of a room full of girls without their knowledge.

    She didn't want to go into the nature of the questions, but only that they dealt with masturbation habits of the pledges, admission about the size of the erect penises and the like. She said one of the pledges indicated he had slept with one of the girls in the sorority, which she later told us was an absolute lie. During the interrogation that sorority girl was pretty angry, but didn't say anything at that time.

    After each pledge answered the question, the girls watched the pledges bend over and have their naked butts spanked raw with a paddle. Then, the pledges were told to put their hands on top of their heads and shut their eyes and if they peeked they would be paddled again. They were then told to turn around. At that point they were facing the girls and and the prolonged silence made it clear the fraternity brothers wanted to give all these sisters a long opportunity to closely view the dicks of each pledge without his knowledge. I asked her what her thought were at that moment and she told me that it was wild. It really made obvious the variance in male genitalia as she compared each guy with the next. She said she found it surprising in that one of the guys that was short and had small features actually had the largest penis whereas one of the buff guys had a very tiny penis and scrotum. She confirmed that it was the favorite moment for all her sisters. Then, after they all had a good, long look the lights were all turned on and the pledges were told to open their eyes. She said the guys freaked out upon seeing the girls looking at them and laughing hysterically.

    At that point, the girl that had been lied about screamed at the pledge "You liar! No way would I EVER sleep with you you jerk!" She said the guy was completely humiliated, standing there naked with his hands on his head, d**k dangling having to answer to an entire sorority after he just made a total fool out of himself.

    I asked her if the reverse ever happened, whereby the girls were naked while the guys watched the initiation, and she replied absolutely not. The sororities were pretty proprietary about their initiations with no guys allowed.

    But she added that it seemed to be common for those fraternities that had a culture of stripping the pledges naked and humiliating them to have the sororities present to watch as it took it to a completely different level. She said she had heard about one fraternity that did the same kind of initiation; however the pledges had blindfolds on their heads and couldn't see. They were told to face the audience, which unbeknownst to them, included one of the sororities. They were then told to play with their cocks and get them erect and then jack off. After the guys had cum, they were told to pull the bags off their heads, no doubt freaking and running off as the girls laughed. However, she said she had never witnessed this.

I don't even want to reread them. I never knew hazing was this bad, I've been truly disgusted by this kind of cruelty. But it takes knowing the truth to change things.

I don't see as this cruelty has any good purpose. I mean I'm 18, and I've spent years of my life trying to accept myself and my body, as I am sure many other teenagers have. This kind of sexual abuse dirties that perception. I assure you that this will NOT make them feel more comfortable with their bodies or sexual tendencies. Being forced into extremely embarrassing, humilating, and degrading situations. Women who are raped don't feel more comfortable with their bodies or sex, just the opposite happens, they fear sex. The same thing happens here, and probably the psychological problems it could cause run somewhere along the same lines. Like the guys who masturbated, they will probably feel like their practice of sexual satisfaction is unacceptable and something to be ashamed of. Their self-esteem drops, their self-acceptance drops. Sure, they feel better when it is over, and may feel like they accomplished something great, but a woman who is being raped, I'm sure is glad when it is over. However, the psychological and emotional issues that develop still linger, in both cases.

Section 2 : Pro-Hazing vs Anti-Hazing Opinions

Here I am going to quote some posts from another site that support hazing. I Will respond to some of the opinions here in Section 3. Many of the responses to these posts were made by a person with username nkrempely, I will inculde some of these as well, because he shares good, interesting views. (The misspellings are theirs, not mine.)

QUOTE
I'm not entirely pro-hazing, but I think the most convincing reasons for protecting it are as follows: Hazing provided mental and (sometimes) physical challenges for the pledge to overcome. The tests can bring greater appreciation for the reward (membership) and forge bonds between people (through mutual experience). It does have an interesting power to enhance pledges self-confidence, which is why i believe many leaders in society come from the greek system. Hazing imbues a sense of accomplishment that can be relished for the rest of one's life. Usually brothers look back on it fondly - although I think this is a strange phenomenom.


QUOTE
nkrempely : I realize how hazing can help, but if some people are hurt more than helped is it worth it? If people die for a small amount of people to continue on through life with a false sense of confidence, is that worth it. I believe that getting your fix, or your props off, should be done in a more constructive way, something that’s help more than hurts. Join the army, be a mentor, help the needy, but making up little games and ways to always have someone outcast to bring a few people closer together isn't something that I would be proud of. I wonder about the times, not too long ago, where all you had to do was eat a live goldfish, you couldn't really die from that but some of the more recent hazing, esp. the high school thing on the news, seem to be just a repeating cycle of hate. One group can't get over it and grow up so they hold resentment towards the people taking their place and they continue the cycle of stupidity. Because I went through a hard, almost life ending rite of passage, I don't feel the need to make some one else feel my pain. We all have enough pain, why cause more?


QUOTE
I agree with you, nkrempely, that, if possible, hazing should be done in a positive, constructive fashion. But many believe that the negative attributes of hazing are essential to its function. What better way to teach self-confidence under duress than to place the pledge in a stressful situation? What better way to bring poeple together than to place them all in the same stressful sitaution, together? When trying to build muscle, one must put large amounts of stress on the muscle; if it is easy there is no benefit, no strength. Likewise with hazing, many believe we are striving for "mental toughness" which can only be taught through negative stimuli. And, if no one is physically harmed during the process, is it really that bad?


QUOTE
nkrempely : Physical harm is just as bad as emotional harm. I think that you’re taking hazing to your preferred extreme. Boot camp is not hazing, bench-pressing 300lbs is not hazing, and throwing feces and urine on people who are defenseless is hazing. I only believe and have noticed that few people gain something from being in a hazing situation. Most people do better by progressively moving forward. To use your exercising example, I recently got a bowflex, now, when I started using it I would use 30lbs per arm on the incline bench press, but now I can do 80lbs. Hazing however is like trying to push 100lbs when all you can do is 50lbs. Working out without enough rest is like treading water, sure you burn calories but make no progress. Another example, aerobic exercise, burns just as much muscle as fat! Hazing causes as much damage to some as good to others. Would you rather help 90/100 people or 20/100, I would feel much better knowing I helped more people than less. How would you like it if your father and mother were hazed for work, if they didn't pass you would be in the lower class, if they did pass they would be in the upper class. Now, if approx. 1% of the world owns 95% of world’s wealth, would you like that to all be decided because someone cracked or didn’t under pressure. Every hazing incident I can think of never helps anyone, you could have a perfect wrestler but he gets pink bellied and the emotional trauma is worse that the physical, I think the coach would certainly think twice about hazing after he lost a star player. Just a few things to think about. Nice try with the working out analogy, but when does hazing go in small increments like exercising?


QUOTE
I know what I went through to get into my Sorority, and looking back I do not think that a person should have to go through all what I went through to get into an organization. I do think that there must be some standard or some process to join into a sorority or fraternity. These organizations are based on principles, most are sisterhood/brotherhood, scholarship, and community service. You want to make sure that the person who is joining your organization is one who will not only work for your organization but represent the prinicipals for which it stands to the best of his/her ability. When you work hard to get something you really cherish it because you know that it was hard to get. If it was just handed to you, it would not mean much. By going through a process you appreceiate it better, cherish it more, and work harder. So what do I think overall. I think that there should be some degree of hazing but nothing life threatening. Unfortunately that did not happen to me but in any event I appreciate and love my sorority and my pledge experience helped me tremendously.


"nkrempely : I'm sorry to say but most people who are wishy washy on this topic really have the wrong idea(s). Hazing in any form is wrong, period. So if you want to be a masochist and take it the hard way don't confuse your wanting to be lead down a certain path with inhuman treatment. I fully understand Bahama Mamma's statement that things shouldn't be handed over to people, do bums appreciate handouts? Do trustfund babies respect what they get? Personally I know it goes beyond all that, to use a christian example, not because I am a christian, which I am not, but it is soo easy. The diciples weren't at the low end and they weren't rich, however they came to realize the awesome power of Jesus, God, and they followed him, they did not need to be beaten down to get to heaven. If everything was built around a world of hazing, you go to your grandma's house and you ask for a fresh baked cookie and you get a spanking in order to get the cookie, doesn't make sense! Personally I would never join a frat because I respect myself more and when you join the crowd like a sheep they need to make people 'earn' it because so many people want to join. It is social psychology, one person freaks out at a concert then it spreads like fire, over a fire or over a match??? To wrap up, if something is just given away the person who receives it may not love it, but if they loved it and wanted it, they are more inclined to take care of it. So, don't give a $50,000 bmw to a 16 year old, and if you do, don't beat them."
 
Vozedale
post May 28 2005, 06:31 PM
Post #2


There is no cure for the heart of tearless eyes. -James Hall
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"I am anti-hazing, so about the only example I can think of is not actually hazing to begin with, nor am I that much in favor of it, either ... A few years ago there was a popular exercise in 'sensitivity sessions' where a person would stand up straight, cross their arms, and slowly and deliberately tip over backwards, 'trusting' their friends, (two people stsnding behind him or her) to catch the person, and gently lower him or her to the floor); all this was to help cure people who were generally so distrustful of others as to be dysfunctional ... paranoid or whatever ... anyway, in a way, it was the opposite of hazing, and the only parallel I can see is that in frat hazing, one is 'trusting' the hazers not to go 'too far' even though one is naturally afraid of exactly that ...

the philosophical opposite can best be found in the yearly field goal attempt that the 'Peanuts' comic strip character 'Charlie Brown' attempts, he trusts Lucy to hold the ball, and each and every year, she jerks it away, just in order to see Charlie fall down; it was the author's attempt to illustrate the religious point, put not your trust in mankind, put your trust in the Lord.... the secular humanists are wrong, the religious faithful are right...."

QUOTE
nkrempely : Interesting, but I don't who you are or what you believe however with my religious up bring in the Catholic faith and my extensive releigious education, not only in Christianity but throughout world religions I don't subscribe to any religion. I find it odd for people to leave their faith in God as an escape from duty or responsibily. In the Chrisitan faith God gave you free will therefore your decisions are your own however when you screw up and are desperate in a situation you would rather not be responsible you fall to your knees and plead to get out of it. I beleive that everyone is responsible for their actions and to a large extent what goes around comes around so antagonizing someone may not merit a beating but if it does come to that acception responsibily for any action done by someone should be taken into consideration. In this universe there is no scale for equal action, punishment or gratitude. About the trust fall as you referenced, it has absolutly nothing to do with haxing except if someone were to 'trust' and be let down, hard. I have done the trust fall where yout feet are level with their hands in a group of 6+ people evenly spaced on the sides. Unfortunatly with a 'weak' groupe, they sort of dropped me, I'm a not overweight or really big but the people I was with weren't focusing enough and I ended up just having them break my fall, it didn't hurt but it wasn't the proper way to catch someone. Did I think any of it was malicious or at all hazing, no, not one bit. However if no one tried to catch me and I flat out hit the ground then I would be pissed. I do again have to dissagree with you on the peanuts aspect. I do not know where you are from but I lived in Santa Rosa, CA. I went to school with Bryan Schultz, my father was a friend of Charles and I spoke with him on the topic among others before he died. It certainly doesn't have as much a religious tone reguarding the humanist 'evil' that you may think. People are good, people are all that we are that we have. In the religion of Islam, Muhamed was a man set as the prime example of how we should act and treat one another. If you beleive that your God will save you then I have compassion for you while I get off my ass and stand up for what I know is right, peace, love and respect. I don't believe that this 'force' will stop a bullet. When you start to grow up and contemplate why inocent people are murdered and why there is so much hate in this world you will realize that God has absolutly nothing to do with it, and if he can bring good into this world then what is he waiting for. We, the people are God, each of us the same in our power to be kind or evil, not God. So my point is that God doesn't have anything to do 'good' just as he has nothing to do with 'evil' and if you think that he promotes good, then who promotes evil, only humans, who created us, why would our creator only help a little? There are many questions to consider and ponder before everything is over simplified and boiled down. I have had an excellent spiriual awakening after leaving the Catholic faith and to leave with 2 quotes, "A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." ~ Albert Einstein, ""The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by Homo Sapiens is that the Lord God of
Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of his
creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does
not receive this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of
evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history." - Robert Heinlein


QUOTE
I must say, I do agree with everything you have said, and oh, by the way, my (ex) mother in law was a high school classmate of Charles Schultz ( St Paul Central high school in Minnesota ) and I was quite taken aback when Charles allowed a television interview of himself to be aired where he expounded on the rather high killing efficiency he had achieved during wartime as a heavy machine gunner in the army ... ( I believe it was mounted on a tripod ... )in general, I believe that hazing is a function of being in an artificially enclosed situation, such as prisons, schools, and families, etc ... the real powers that be simply sit back and watch, as the weak are devoured by the strong, much as the general public watches pro football on tv ...


QUOTE
nkrempely : Yes, I believe that the majority of hazing is done in a group like situation, however there aren't many other possibilities either. It just becomes easier when people are under pressure and aren't sure what to do esp. when there are treading in the unknown. It's our modern day natural selection, prision and gangs eat their own. I just feel that it has no place on the school yard or where society needs to function and when you look at where people condone it you see they get nothing out of it. Take the military, after being hazed you gain nothing than before, are you wiser, not necessarily, do you have more money, no, are you a better person for being beaten down, that is up to them but I seriously doubt it. My general philosophy on life is that what goes up can stay up and what goes down can stay down, meaning you ruin your life with smoking, drugs, violence, stress etc, it compounds and you dwell in that negativity, but if you strive for love, take care of your body and mind and others then you will do better in the world and just as you give more comes back. There are just so many things and sayings that contradic(?sp) hazing that to me I see no use. What goes around comes around, for example. Oh well, I'd like to see what would happen if 'these' people had to watch Dr. Phil til they were straightend out?


QUOTE
Hazing is fine as long as nobody is hurt. The vast majority of hazing does not involve forced drinking or physical pain. I know this because I am a student at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, which has the largest Greek system in the nation (over 60 frats). Most hazing is mental, and in the end it builds your character and social skills. People in fraternities are more independent and social. This is evident from these fraternity statistics:

85% of the Fortune 500 executives
85% of the U.S. Supreme Court justices since 1900
71% of the men in Who?s Who
76% of U.S. Congress
63% of the U.S. President?s Cabinet since 1900
All but four U.S. Presidents since 1825

(http://www.uoregon.edu/~grklife/leadership.html)

Also, over 90% of CEO's were in fraternities. ALL OF THESE SUCCESSFULL PEOPLE WERE HAZED! Hazing is good for your character. I was hazed as a pledge, and I am a much more self confident person because of it.


QUOTE
Good, you can let me know when you are a CEO, Judge or someone who's who. Until then you can beleive that hazing gives you something that you wouldn't of had before. There are 2 basic types of hazing, there are challenges and cruelty. I'd rather be challenged than be tourtured. So... if it isn't so bad why isn't it mearly a challenge but so much of it ends up in a negative light? And but the way, it may take a bit to get into a frat but not much to sustain it. Those statistics are just that, the manipulation of numbers to favor your side, rather than bend the truth, why not have a few of these prominante people publicly express their appreciation for hazing as opposed to those who survived it.



This next post is describing all 6 of the Greek sororities at the University of Texas.

QUOTE
Believe it, they are paddle marks...all the girls sport them in all six
sororities..that is not a coincidence. Also one sorority lines the girls
up by breast size. That's not cool! Incedentally the top six are Kappa
Kappa Gamma, Pi Beta Phi, Delta Delta Delta, Chi Omega, Kappa Alpha
Theta, and depending on who you ask, Zeta Tau Alpha or Alpha Delta Pi.
These are listed in no particular order. Out of these sororites, all
paddle, all haze....all mark their pledges bodies with red permanent
markers, at least three have mandatory exercise hours in addition to
study hours, one sells pledges to fraternity members, one makes their
initiates lie in a coffin, and one lines theirs up by breast size in the
dark..that means the girls have to feel each other's breasts to see whose
are bigger as they are not allowed to speak, and then a particular
fraternity is allowed to come in and "check" to make sure they lined up
correctly. The bigger the school, the dirtier the greek system, and
frankly I'm embarassed to be a part of a system that nods at this behaviour


QUOTE
I am in the military and believe hazing is a vital form of discipline and initiation. I do not support all forms of hazing. Just as anything else yes it can be taken too far. Thats why standards and regulations should be set. Mothers of America is a sucker for a crybaby service member who feels mistreated. Then next thing you know one of the key leaders to our unit is being court-martialed. Hazing has been mostly used improperly by todays small unit leaders. However despite this drawbacks there are too many positive reasons to let this one objection stand in the way. I am disgusted how todays society, media, and Secretary of Defense can sit there and look down at the Marine Corps. "barbaric" acts of hazing. Yet they will all expect barbarism on demand the next time a sadam, Bin Laden, or other terrorist threatens us on our homelands. And we will deliver once again


QUOTE
hzaing is not wrong when it comes to frats since, i learned a lot of things being hazed and of courseits made me a better person.


Section 3 : My thoughts

When people get in a group they often will not act because they feel like someone else will act, this split up of responsiblitity has led to situations such as where a group watched a woman get raped, and stood their and did nothing. There was a psychology term for it, Bystander effect. Another example that was in my psychology book, took place in New York city. A woman was stabbed multiple times and raped, right next to her apartments. He then left, and she, lying their bleeding to death, called out for help, a few hours, seeing how people had heard her and knew what was going out did nothing, the rapist returns, stabs her more times and rapes her again. Only after that did someone actually call the police. The poor girl died. Don't expect someone else to make your stand for you, they won't.

If you know good old Freud, it is called displacement. And that is what initiation rituals are based on. Once a group has experienced hazing, they end up doing it to others, displacement. And I don't think displacing those angry feelings, that have obviously held up since they were hazed, is not really relieved. Actually, expressing anger in negative ways is proven to make you more angry. Especially in what is suppose to be a learning environment. Abused kids becomes abusive parents.

The previously posted statistics on frat boys being successful is NOT adequate information to prove that hazing has led to more success. It would take a carefully worked experiment that would COMPARE the success of abused and not abused frat boys to truly determine if there is an influence. I took statistics AP, I'm not impressed, especially with how easily it could be biased.

How do the people who die benefit from hazing? Is there death kind of a sacrifice so that everyone else has a supposedly better and more successful life? I do believe their death helps others, it gets us good, caring people to get out there and do something about it, and have a heart to help a fellow human, a fellow countryman, a fellow student, a fellow friend.

People go off to war, experience unspeakable hardships, and are glad when the war is over, maybe even feel like they accomplished something, but they plenty of them come back messed up.
"Smells like flowers and mustard gas"
-Kurt Vonnegut

As for the military, initiation rituals and breaking men down, again, makes things harder, and even if it didn't, you can't prepare them for emotional and psychology problems they will encounter on the battlefield. Why would so many come back with psychological problems? And don't aren't there many that come back and begin abusing their wives... hm... wonder why..

There is only one successful case that I have heard that truly prepared for war. They were street kids when it first started, kids that parents abandon them on the streets. These kids already lived in some violence. I can't remember which country it was, but the government desided to use these kids. Probably in exchange for some basic needs, they hired them to kill people. The result when they grew up some, a killing machines that ENJOYED killing people! They were used in the military. You might have heard about the sports event, in Britain I believe, where people got excited and/or annoyed over a GAME. Several people were crushed to death and many people were injuried. Here is one that I just found on the internet that I remember reading about.
"Liverpool lost the European Cup to Juventus last night, but the game of football has lost far, far more. In short, it died along with the 47 people trampled to death when a group of mainly Italian supporters stampeded to get away from rioting Liverpool fans and were crushed when first barriers, and then a wall, collapsed.

After the scenes of death, injury and destruction in the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, the result seems irrelevant, the details meaningless. How can a match be anything else when even as the players are winning their tackles, making their passes and producing their shots, the death toll continues to mount?"
Violent games and TV. . .School shootings. . .Take a look around, the violence isn't decreasing, it is increasing. Sure, we can find plenty of things that are proven to make us more violent, but what do we do about it? How far will it go? How much closer will our soldiers get to being a killing machine because of the more and more violent environment they live in? Will we use our heads when we make more powerful weapons? Ignorance and power are not a good mixture, and violence isn't getting us anywhere.

"An eye for an eye and the world is blind" -Ghandi

QUOTE
At Manhattan College in New York, on one of the coldest nights of the winter, pledge Michael Flynn, 19 was abandoned naked on an isolated country road in Putnam County, New York.  During the drive by automobile to the drop-off point, fraternity brothers poured beer on his feet, ignoring two pleas from Flynn that his feet were freezing.  The wind-chill factor outside the car was 35 degrees below zero.  Flynn’s feet were seriously frostbitten.  He was hospitalized for 2 weeks and suffered permanent health problems.  A judge acquitted the four defendants, saying he could not determine the brothers had knowingly subjected Flynn to frostbite (Nuwer, 1990).


QUOTE
Two freshmen at Ohio State University were brought to the “dungeon” of their prospective fraternity house after breaking the rule requiring all pledges to crawl into the dining area prior to Hell Week meals.  Once locked in the house storage closet, they were given only salty foods to eat for nearly two days.  Nothing was provided for drinking purposes except a pair of plastic cups in which they could catch their own urine (Described in Cialdini, 1985).


Some many of the pro-hazing opinions emphasize that the pledges have the decision to leave at any time. These two freshman had no choice, it was allowing themselves to be hazed or even worse punishment.

Although hazing is illegal in 44 states, many greek fraterities and probably sororities are sworn to secrecy and the college adminstrations are afraid of damaging their reputations and being sued, that both may be completely aware of the fact that hazing is illegal and do nothing.



Here is a site that talks about hazing in High schools.
http://www.asbj.com/2000/08/0800coverstory.html

Do we want our kids having to go through this kind of physical, verbal, and/or sexual abuse, at possibly younger ages.

I want you to imagine approximately 400,000 people. No really get a glimpse. Woodstock 69 had an approximation of four-hundred thousand people attend. Imagine a very large plot of land, where people are having sex in the fields and it is no real big deal because there are so many people. People are skinny dipping. People are walking around nude because it isn't a big deal, there are so many people that it doesn't matter. I have a picture of a little baby boy sleeping naked under the shade of a guitar case. I thought it was the cutest thing. Think of writing down each individual name of each person in a book, think of how many pages it would take, just their first name, at a rate of 200 words per page would take 2000 pages. If you included both their names, 4000 pages. And maybe a little information about them.... Now, multiply that all by 15 and kill them all. That's what the Germans did to the Jews, and for what purpose? A little discrimination and an "I'm better than you attitude". How could they do it? Well, a psychology experiment I read in my Psychology text shows that a participant would ask a question and adminster a shock to another person. The shocks got more intense each time, until the person being shocked cried out it pain. There was an experimenter there as well, and if the participant asked when to stop, the experimenter would just say to continue to administer shocks for wrong answers. The participant got really nervous, and was sweating profusely, but continued to administer shocks. The person became unresponsive, the experimenter tells the participant to continue administering shocks, so he was adminstered shocks for his unanswered questions. The participant made it all the way to the last shock, and the participant adminstered the last shock, which was 3 or 4 switches after the person had become unconcious. Sweating profusely and really nervous, the participated was surprised to find that the person was really part of the experiment, and was not really being adminster shocks, though he acted well enough to convince the participant. About 8 in 10 or so, I know the rate was high, participants in this experiment went all the way to the max shock. 9 in 10 of those who adminstered the first shock. So as they adminstered a shock, it became easier to shock them with more voltage, and those who quit all quite soon, within the first few shocks. They tried this around a few different places, if the places were more prestigious, a greater proportion would go all the way. So, first it was probably a soldier would probably observe someone verbally abusing a Jew, then the soldier does it himself. Then maybe making them strip naked and hitting them. And then it esculates to killing them, and although this would be one way to motivate such violence, this is not how the Germans did it. This technique, foot-in-the-door phenomenon as it is called in psychology, was used in China to turn Americans into communists and it worked. As I remember from a report from a German soldier, they would gather up new recruits, and under the pressure of higher officers and group influences not unlike the initiation rituals, they were ordered to go into a village where Jews were residing. There were told to enter the village and kill everyone, unarmed men, women, and children. Very few left and did not carry out the slaughter, like a dozen in 500. The rest did. Then at the slaughter camps, people were forced to strip naked and pile all of their clothes together, and were just selected out of the group, entire families, and told to stand in front of one of the trenches that were quickly filling up with dead bodies. They were shot in the back of the head. End of the day news towards the end of WWII was a casual, "We killed 1000 jews today." Six million people. Well, what about those that survived, they are a lot tougher now.... Is that any excuse....


Why do people haze and allow themselves to be hazed?
Awareness is the biggest part of prevention. There is evidence that pledges, as well as members of the fraternity/sorority, are not below average intelligence or sadisitic. The actions they perform are very stupid and sadistic, but attributing their actions to their personality is called fundamental attribution error in Psychology. There are many terms from social psychology that explain why these young adults haze and allow themselves to be hazed.
Pluralistic ignorance is a psychological term that describes group actions where people form false impressions on how others are thinking, feeling, or responding. "Groups all have norms of attitude and behavior which are shared and which help form the identity of the group. Adopting these norms, even if you do not agree with them, is a part of the individual sacrifice that people accept as a price of group membership. It is thus possible for groups to have norms which hardly anyone agrees with, but with which everyone conforms. These situations typically occur when the norms are older than all members of the group or when one member or a small group is dominant and can force their attitudes on the rest of the group." (http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/pluralistic_ignorance.htm)
Group polarization can tell us why hazing has gotten worse over the years. Group polarization is a psychological term that refers to members' of a group preexisting tendencies to enhance those already existing in the group. The hazers are already accustom to ignoring the risk they place on the pledges and to engage in violent and risky behavior. These are the values they adopt from being hazed. The result? The hazers become MORE ignorant of the risks they place on the pledges and engage in MORE risky and violent behavior. There is also what is know as risky shift, where the members in a group will be more likely to take risker decisions because each feels less risk because the risk is shared among the members. Hazing also breeds more acceptance of abusing and being abused.
Both of these are shown to greatly influence the actions of young adults, but when it leads to someone being seriously hurt or killed, the hazers are very regretful, in fact, most or all of the hazers care about the pledges.
Much of the reasons of why hazing occurs is because of in-group/out-group that people associate themselves with. We are more favorable to our own group, us (in-group bias), and we are les favorable to other groups, them (out-group bias).
For more information on in-group/out-group visit http://www.units.muohio.edu/psybersite/groups/bias.shtml
The eight symptoms of groupthink are:
* Illusions of invulnerability where the group think it is invincible and can do no wrong.
* Collective efforts to rationalize or discount warnings.
* Unquestioned belief in the moral correctness of the group.
* Stereotyped views of the out-group, often as too evil, weak or stupid to be worth bothering with.
* Self-censorship as people decide not to rock the boat.
* Pressure to conform.
* A shared illusion of unanimity (everyone always agrees with everyone else).
* Protecting the group from contrary viewpoints, by self-appointed ‘mind-guards’.

Seeking concurrence can become so dominant in a in-group that it tends to override realistic appraisal of alternative courses of action. This model of thinking that occurs in people is called groupthink. It leads to the young adults not accepting or thinking of new constructive ways to replace hazing.
A need to belong is also part of what influence these young adults to be hazed. Their desire to be part of the group leads them to take more abuse.

Some ways to prevent negative group communication and action and promote positive group interaction:
One of the most interesting things I see with these social psychological influences, some of them can be completely turned around, to promote good and healthy habits. Such as in group polarization. Instead of criticizing the pledges on their bodies, private issues, promoting violence, and putting them in painfully embarrassing and humiliating situations, they could work out ways that the pledges would learn and strive for acceptance of their bodies, become more comfortable with situations that embarrass them, instead of develop fears of these situations, promote non-violent solutions, and strive for self-acceptance. In turn, these values would grow and become strong, just as have the negative aspects of hazing. They could promote taking a stand, as opposed to letting horrible things happen. They could work into the initiation rituals the true values of the organization, instead of the cruel ones. This would accomplish the same goal of having the pledges desiring to join and being tougher people that might actually take this world in the direction it needs to go. Instead of being attached to the organization out of fear, they would feel more so attached because they will feel any changes they make are for the better of themselves and will make the closer to the person they want to be. Playful teasing increases unity and friendship, while hazing increases fear and loyalty. Friendship already consists of loyalty, with positive intiation rituals, the pledges will be more loyal to the organization. The pledges will develop intrinsic values for working for the organization (will do it because they want to and enjoy doing so), instead of having extrinsic values for working for the organization (they do it because they have to, usually enjoy it less, if at all). People with intrinsic values produces more than those with extrinsic values. Also, people with intrinsic values are more likely to state their opinions, come up with new ideas, and intrinsic values will prevent groupthinking.
Allowing for individuality and stressing standing up for what one believes will eliminate groupthink from occuring, as well as eliminating pluralistic ignornance, as the group will be more likely to accept the values of the organization and more likely and much more rapidly get a deeper understanding of the organization. Instead of killing pledges with violent hazing, the pledges and members could be forming experiences that they will WANT to remember and take the values they have learned and use them to save lives. Because in hazing situations, the pledges begin to develop learned helplessness, a psychological term that describes the hopelessness and resignation that people (and animals in experiments) perceives that they have no control over repeated bad events. These pledges feel like they have no choice once the process begins, more often than not, they feel like if they try to stop the hazing or try to leave, they will be more severely punished, and as we have seen, they have been. Adopting good values for initiation and the organization, like building on the pledges' and members' reactance, another psychological term that refers to a desire to protect one's sense of freedom, and arises when someone threatens our sense of freedom. Hazing takes away pledges sense of freedom and power, while proper initiation rituals and organization values could promote it. And is that not what America solely stands for, Freedom.
The influences groups have on people, as well as the state of the world, is a two-sided coin. But unlike the laws of probability tell us, we have the power to control the outcome of which side that coin lands on.
As Nkrempley put it, "We, the people are god", it is in our power to take this world to Heaven or Hell.

Take YOUR stand against Hazing!
www.stophazing.com

I encourage you to discuss your opinions, whether they are in favor of or against hazing. Criticize my ideas or writing if you wish, as this will probably be the basis of something I may use later.

It wouldn't let me post the whole thing together... Said it was too long. biggrin.gif
 
*mzkandi*
post May 28 2005, 09:35 PM
Post #3





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Well congrats from having the longest debate post ever. And why would anyone support hazing? Yes its wrong. Yes it does happened. I know in Florida there are very harsh consquences for those found quilty of hazing.

ps. you may want to edit a tad because its a little too long.
 
yukichan
post May 29 2005, 04:36 AM
Post #4


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wow that was long.. wacko.gif
i never knew hawaii allowed it..I wonder y...
Guess I learned something new..
 
jue
post May 29 2005, 09:32 AM
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wow; that took me like forever to finish. And of course hazing should be banned. If older people pick on youger people, thats jsut wrong. The bigger people have been in the shoes of the younger ones so why would they wanna do such thing if they were in that place.
 
fameONE
post May 29 2005, 10:54 AM
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Contributing more to the argument other than "wow" here's my two pennies...

I am a legacy to be in the Kappa Alpha Psi historically black fraternity. And, quite honestly, I don't want to be a part of it at all. Here at Universtiy of Texas at San Antonio, they've been kicked off the yard for their extreme methods of hazing. Personally, I'm not down for being stripped naked, beaten publicly and humiliated in front of anyone, especially women.

After learning about this, I decided to do some research on this new generation of Kappas to see if they were like that elsewhere. And, lo and behold, at Delaware State University, 2000 miles away, the same nonsense goes down. What I don't understand is; why the fcuk is this necessary?

Fraternities are about brotherhood and community, right? Fraternities are supposed to be the community golden boys helping others and being the model of chivalry and good manners. So then why are they senseless beating their new brothers as if its such a necessity? It makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm well aware that some sort of playful initiation process is appropiate, but not BDSM, public torment and sodomy. What I find to be sad is that big brothers of past generations believe that the hazing process is, and I quote my father, "all apart of being in the fraternity." Should I dare break a 4 generation legacy just because I feel as if innocent men are being morally degraded?

Hazing must end. It is not necessary. As soon as you pay your 500 dollars (varies from frat to frat) then you're officially in the fraternity. There is no exclusion in fraternities. Boot camp and hell week is a matter of ritual. I say fcuk the ritual.
 
Vozedale
post May 29 2005, 12:30 PM
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It is a cruel and unnecessary process, and for a sympathetic and deeply caring person like me, it really hurts to know that people are treated this way. Truly it makes me want to join a fraternity when I go to college just to see if any of that stuff is happening. I don't believe in it. I don't see why a organization would be good and do all kinds of good things such as community service, but then turn around and beat incoming members. I really don't know that much about the joining process for fraternities, I'm trying to learn more, but for getting new members to conform and be more alike to the other members, there are productive alternatives to hazing. I was reading a discussion on the discussion group at the stophazing site and between what they were calling papers and pledges, it seemed like the fraternities were really looking down on those who try to go about join in a safe process, I may be wrong, but that's what it sounded like. There's no way I am going to let myself be hazed, and I'll do whatever I can to prevent that from happening to others. It's not right.
 
aera
post May 30 2005, 03:34 PM
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*scribble scribble*
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well. i only read the part before section1. the rest was too long.

i do not support hazing.
 
*CrackedRearView*
post May 31 2005, 03:07 AM
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No one's forcing you to join the fraternity. If that's the way they carry things out, then that's how it is.

Find another, less brutal one.
 
Vozedale
post Jun 4 2005, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE(CrackedRearView @ May 31 2005, 3:07 AM)
No one's forcing you to join the fraternity.  If that's the way they carry things out, then that's how it is.

Find another, less brutal one.
*


I understand your view, you don't have to join the fraternity. But it is sad when people pursue their interests, such as athletics, are forced to be hazed in order to be a wrestler for example. There was a 15 year old boy wrestler, just reaching high school, and he was sodomized with a broom handle and had deep internal injuries and permanent internal damages. It seems like a lot of the time these kids get into something they are interested in, but are not expecting to be hazed, then when hazing begins, it is really too late to do much, because something worse may happen to them if they don't do what is demanded of them. Here is a addition to my arguement, if hazing is suppose to increase trust, how do those that are being hazed distrust of the statement that they can leave at any time contribute to their trust? Most of the time this statement is a lie, how does lieing increase their trust?

I also think it is stupid how they drink in college. Many of the hazing deaths were being forced to consume too much alcohol. Some of these poor pledges passed out after drinking too much and then were carried to a bed where they died of blood alcohol content that was too high or sufficated on their own vomit. Not only in hazing, but also in drinking and driving and just drinking too much. I read about a guy that had drank a lot at his birthday party was found dead behind his frat house because of alcohol poisoning. I have nothing against getting drunk in a safe manner, but drinking so much is completely stupid. Many of those deaths could have been avoided if people were aware that when someone passes out, it is a sign of a dangerously high blood alcohol content level. Just as Justin (CrackedRearView) found his girlfriend in bed with another teammate, she was drunk (I'm sorry again Justin that you had to go through that). People make mistakes that they often regret when they are drunk. If someone is going to drink they should know what is too much and think about the mistakes they might make when they are drunk, especially when it comes to driving and parties. A little awareness could save a lot of lives.

Oh, and i fixed the quotes, you can't have more than 10 in a post, they won't work.
 
Ken28
post Mar 29 2008, 02:27 PM
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nkrempely, I can agree with you on hazing that will phyically hurt
anyone. But to join a fraternity there are other unusal things that can
and might humiliate or intimidate you, and that is expected.

I as with the other pledges had to strip down in front of our future
sorority sisters while reading my, reasons to be in the Alpha Phi Omega
fraternity. We were not to hide secrets from our frat brothers or our
sorority sisters.

After all male pledges were nude, we had to go introduce oueselves
to each of the sorority sisters. They asked us many questions, some
personal while we were not hiding anything from them.

Some of the guys were very uncomfortable for awhile but after
being nude in front of everyone for maybe a half an hour, it wasn't
that bad. We knew we made our fratrnity.

Later on during school, our sorority sisters challenged us to
a bet dealing with raising money for a certain charity. The losers
had to strip nude, serve snacks to the winners for three hours at the
clothing optional beach nearest the school. Everyone had to play volley-
ball. Well, we lost and this was much different than our fraternity
initiation. This was not hazing! But it was along the same line as our
initation. It sure was an event that I will never forget.
 
Heathasm
post Mar 29 2008, 02:37 PM
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creepy heather
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i was hazed in highschool but due to previou issues they toned it down and said anything they asked us to do was optional.
 
butre
post Nov 22 2010, 07:25 PM
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/人◕‿‿◕人\
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tl dr
 
AbbeyMarie
post Nov 23 2010, 02:51 AM
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Hazing? More like character building.
 
iRapediCarly
post Nov 23 2010, 03:38 AM
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hey abbey, do you take the tractor to school?
 
AbbeyMarie
post Nov 23 2010, 05:40 AM
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Sex, Blood, & RocknRoll
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tractors are for rich people. I take a lawn mower
 
Uronacid
post Dec 20 2010, 09:02 AM
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I haze daily
 
Stuckie
post May 8 2011, 09:49 AM
Post #18


Ummm... I can't think of anything creative to put here
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A lot of "hazing" rituals in the military are more of a rite of passage. For intsance, when they first had pin on rank on the collar, they wouldn't stick. So what do you do? You hit it. It pricks the person but it stays. After generations of doing it, its just something you do. Even when the rank changed to velcro. We still hit that rank. Its a rite of passage. Just like the shark attack in basic training, 5 jumps in jump school, and even the promotion board itself.
 
itsclyde
post Aug 9 2011, 04:49 AM
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<:3 )~~~
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wat?
 
fiveseven
post Aug 10 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #20


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bunch of hazers
 
AbbeyMarie
post Aug 10 2011, 12:42 PM
Post #21


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hazers gonna haze?
 
LittleMissSunshi...
post Aug 13 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #22


rawr?
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that's why hazing is kept in secrecy!! many people must keep it quiet or they are kicked out of their sorority or fraternity.
 
Uronacid
post Aug 15 2011, 10:38 AM
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Could someone please haze me today. I'm addicted.
 
fiveseven
post Aug 16 2011, 02:29 PM
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hypnotique
post Oct 28 2011, 04:17 PM
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Live long and prosper.
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QUOTE(doodoo @ Aug 16 2011, 03:29 PM) *

heheh clever stuff.
 

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