ok. so i'm doing an english project for school on the oh so controversial topic of prayer in school. and since we LOVE to debate ( ) i was wondering what everyone's stand in this is.

Pro School Prayer Positions:
1)Our Government is based on Religious Principles
2)The Free Exercise Clause Protects School Prayer
3)Banning School Prayer Leads to Moral Decline
4)Majority Should Rule

Anti School Prayer Positions:
1)State-Sponsored School Prayer is Unconstitutional
2)Prayer in School is Already Legal
3)State-Sponsored Prayer Will Lead to Religious Intolerance
4)Moral Decline and School Prayer are Unrelated
TO SEE THESE ARGUMENTS IN DEPTH GO HERE


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i am against school prayer. big surprise. lol. public schools exist to educate, not to proselytize. children in public schools are a captive audience. making prayer an official part of the school day is coercive and invasive. what 5, 8, or 10-year-old could view prayers recited as part of class routine as "voluntary"? religion is private, and schools are public, so it is appropriate that the two should not mix. our schools are for all children, whether catholic, baptist, quaker, atheist, buddhist, wiccan, jewish, agnostic. the schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances and coercion. when religion has invaded our public school system, it has singled out the lone jewish student, the children in the minority. families who protest state/church violations in our public schools invariably experience persecution. it was common prior to the court decision against school prayer to put non-religious or nonorthodox children in places of detention during bible-reading or prayer recitation. the children of supreme court plaintiffs against religion in schools were beaten up on the way to and from school, their families subjected to community harassment and death threats for speaking out in defense of a constitutional right. we know from history how harmful and destructive religion is in our public schools. individual, silent, personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools. it is coercive for schools to schedule worship as an official part of the schoo day, school sports or activities, or to use prayer to formalize graduation ceremonies. such prayers are more "mandatory" than "voluntary." the radical school prayer amendment would negate the first amendment's guarantee against government establishment of religion. most distressing, it would be at the expense of the civil rights of children, america's most vulnerable class. it would attack the heart of the bill of rights, which safeguards the rights of the individual from the tyranny of the majority. those in the minority would be compelled to conform to a religion or ritual n which they disbelieve, to suffer the humiliation and imposition of submitting to a daily religious exercise against their will, or be singled out by orthodox classmates and teachers as "heretics" or "sinners" for not participating. should the government become "prayer police"? the school prayer debate seems calculated to deflect attention away from the more pressing economic questions facing our nation. some politicians like to blame everything bad in america upon the absence of school prayer. it is a quick fix. it is irrational to charge that the complicated sociological problems facing our everchanging population stem from lack of prayer in schools. our political system is a democratic republic in which we use majority vote to elect certain officials or pass laws. but, we do not use majority vote to decide what religion, if any, our neighbors must follow. imposing prayer-by-majority-vote is flagrant and insensitive abuse of school authority. such schools should be teaching students about the purpose of the bill of rights, instead of teaching them to be religious bullies.

Heh I don't have time to read that long paragraph, but I will, but I just don't mind it as long as I'm not forced to. I'm an atheist, too.

I think having a seperate time just for prayer during school hours is useless, because not everyone follows the same religion. I personally pray before I eat my lunch in school, and it's totally upto the people whether they want to pray or not.

You might think I might be for it, seeing i go to a Catholic School and dont have a choice to pray

But I say that if you have prayer, have the option to not pray, and allows all relegions to pray....just because Christians are the majority dosent mean we can disrespect the minority

i totally agree.

It would be nice for some people to have. But what about all the rest that dont follow that religion, or people that dont even beleive in having a religion? I think its useless when you look through all the pros and cons.

oh we had a debate worth 200 on this before@!!
like we all took a paper and wrote if we were pro or anti, and then like our s.s teacher randomly passed them out.
i chose pro, but i had to debate for the anti side... but i ended up getting 250 points instead of 200 because i was the only one speaking out for the anti side... and my side won MWOOHAHAHA
anwanys, im pro for it. not in the mood for being all like supportive of my details... but okay. haha ^^

I say no. Because not everyone's Christian you know? They have Christian/Catholic schools for that.

But I think it's stupid how they tried to take out " under God " from the Pledge of Allegiance. I think that's just stupid.

- Chinkieeyedpnoi

I SAY YES. WE NEED PRAYER AT SCHOOLS.

this country was made on the principles of christianity and we should always have stuck my them. sometimes i wish i could go back in time to the Constitutional COnvention of 1787 and make the founding fathers be more specific cause i hate it that people say the constitution says its wrong. "separation of church and state" haha. dumb people who use that as an excuse. the people who made the constituion were christians in one denomination or another...they would have been okay with that fact that there are different types of christianity HOWEVER they would not have been okay with other religions especially taking PRAYER out of SCHOOLS. they might have let the other religions be free to worship on their own but i hardly doubt that they would have wanted prayer out of schools. this country needs to go back to its christian roots.. im tired of people who try to do otherwise

ALSO WHEN they wrote separation of church and state they meant it in the point that the government couldn't stop a form of the Christian denomination. they probably would want them to stop the weird religions that has come into this country.

I mean seriously. if they truly truly wanted separation of church and state and took that literally as some dumb puck holes do now why did they still allow school prayers to go on

dunno know for sure but you ever think of why the Kennedy family has no heir now...ever think about which president was in office when the decision came to stop school prayers...it should make you think

so that is my topic...about the fact what has heppened to the kennedy family in realation cause there is already a topic for school prayer

However I believe it is TOTTALLY UNFAIR that my parents taxes go to funding public schools and the government does not fund Private/catholic/christian/jewish/muslim schools out there.

And its a big $7000 tuition every year for me. I believe its unfair that the public school system does not give options to religious studies in school and are basically restricting people optional education to their faith. Notice i said optional.

Also, prayers said effectivly well will only take a minute of class time. In fact thats how it is here in my school it only takes 1 minute to make a short prayer. The prayers are generic that they would fit under all religions. The students would not be obliged to say prayers but just listen silently or choose to ignore if they are athiest. But Its not fair when a majority of our nation is of some form of religous faith to be stripped of the oppertunity to encorporate their faith in their daily lives which they spend most of the time in school because of the rather few non religous persons.

THen again to what i said above. The world isnt fair. And thank you other californians for voting no on that prop. that would allow vouchers to go to parents in private schools. A return of $2000 would've helped alot.

You're really religious, huh?

And also, prayer? What about those people who are NOT Christian or Catholic? I'm Buddhist, and I follow different beliefs. Now, if it was a prayer of a variety of religions, I guess it's okay. Personally, I don't care, because I'm not that much of a religious person. I haven't been to a temple in a while, and I only go once in a while. I've only been to one temple ONCE this year =T

So it wouldn't really mean anything to me. But that's just my opinion

"dunno know for sure but you ever think of why the Kennedy family has no heir now...ever think about which president was in office when the decision came to stop school prayers...it should make you think"

Are you implying God had something to do with it?

I am not saying that God DID do that because i do not know for sure

what im saying is that yes He could have a part in it...a God that strikes a person dead for lying and cheating will have no problem doing that to someone who took his faith out of schools

Um... that would imply God is vengeful. And from what I've learned from Christians, God doesn't kill you, but he will judge you at the day of judgment. Cuz, what happens if I lie and cheat but then repent for my sins through Jesus? If God struck me down before I had the opportunity to repent then that doesn't seem very fair. And as far as I know God is just.

The God that struck down a man and woman (husband and wife) dead for lying and cheating were in the old testament days. Don't know the chapter. And see aren't you glad that He gave Jesus to die for us so you have the opportunity to do just that?

So that means God shouldn't have anything to do with the Kennedys

why did you make a new topic for this when all you had to do was post on the prayer post? merging topic.

Thats what "predestination" is

some people are saved and some are damned to hell

its a hard concept to grasp because you hear that God is suppose to be just and predistination doesn't seem like it is just. but that is just the way it works...so people that even heard about christianity and had a chance to become Christian..congrats because you had a chance and its up to you if you made the right choice or not

as for the Kennedy's, If God killed them because he wanted to punish and make an example of them so be it. The president was Catholic so they all had their chances to repent and what not. And what is there to say that God can't kill you just because you repent. He might love you so much that He wants you to be with you in heaven right?


xjjajeengx
my bad...but i normally don't read the posts that anyone writes beside for the topic and a few after and the last person to comment anda few before...i mean who cares about the middle...i thought most people did that and no one would read the kenedy thing...and there you butted into my posts, topic again

uh... just doing my job? sorry...

So people that have not heard about jesus and couldn't repent are going to hell? And to what degree of predestination is there? If God knows every minute movement we are doing now and in the future , then he already knows whether we will be saved or not. That would mean he puts people onto this earth knowing full well they will be damned to hell.

I am atheist...and a prayer in school im sorry isnt right...there are soo many religions that you have to pray for each one it would talk up soo much time....and teacher always complain there is no time....plus i dont go to school to be preached to if i wanted that i would was my butt up early sunday morning and go to the chrurch down the street...DAMN THERE BELLS!!!!.....But if a school wants to have a prayer then set it aside in a separate room..and liet those that want to go...join

not everyone's Christian / Catholic, but no one's saying that if you pray, it has to be a Christian / Catholic prayer. It's up to everyone to decide how they want to pray, or if they even want to. In my school, we had a moment of silence every morning. That way the kids who wanted to pray could, and the kids who didn't want to didn't have to, they could use that time to collect their thoughts or what have you.

However, I feel that there are certain morals and standards from religion that would benefit everyone. "Thou shall not cheat, steal, lie, murder, covet thy neighbor's possessions..."(to paraphrase.) yeah. good things to know. especially in today's society.

This country was founded on certain religious standards. it's says 'In God We Trust" on the money, and every state thanks God or another 'Almighty power' in their constitution. But not one of them says "In the Christian God We Trust." or "In the Jewish God We Trust." It's up to you to decide what you believe in-- I'm not forcing you to pray to my God. But don't take my choice to pray in school away from me.

I think that having moments of silence for people that choose to pray can pray is fine. But if the principal hops onto the intercom and starts a Christian prayer then that's going too far.

we have the "moment of silence" in school here.. its supposed to be reflection or prayer time.. I am a christian and a few years ago i probably would have argued that prayer should be in school. However, now that i am older i realize why it isnt. I mean, if we prayed, we'd have to pray to God, mohammed, allah [sp?], and ALL other gods and deitys[sp?] that everyone else in the school belived in. And, the kids who have no religion would be forced to pray when its against what they believe in also. So, i think that the moment of silence is a good thing to have. The ppl that want to pray are allowed and the others can just sit there and continue with their work...

Some schools don't even have the moment of silence

And also those people with no religion or not Christian they don't have to participate. they could just sit there and just sit there.

haha thats so funny.... i just did my report on this and we have the exact same information... did you search google!?!? well my speech went over well and i hope yours does too...

Everyone assumes that when you are praying to "God" that it's the Christian God. Doens't have to be that way. There are nondenominational prayers out there, ones that cover all the bases. When you pray, pray to whatever God you believe in. I'm not forcing you to pray to the Christian God, and no one's forcing me to pray to Mohammed, so... everyone can do their own thing.

I say yes there should be prayer in schools. Freedom of Religion is one of the reasons this nation was founded. To take that out is like to take out a reason for why this nation was founed. I wish there was a time for prayer because God knows what I go through at school and it would be nice to have some prayer time for me to be one on one with God. However, to tell you the truth NOBODY is going to tell me when to pray and when not to pray.

Honestly, I'm for it. I go to a Catholic school and we pray every morning. Maybe it's because I'm so used to it, but I really don't mind taking 2 minutes out of my morning to pray.

One problem with prayer in schools though is that people are very rude. They talk, wisper, giggle, bounce the bleachers, make faces, and do almost anything to be rude. I'm in 8th grade and some people can't sit still to pray. When you're younger you don't concentrate as hard as you do when you're older, but then is it fair for some people to pray and others not to just because of age?

Maybe, they should just give people time in the morning, right before classes start. You could pray, if you don't want to, you can just sit there for a minute or two. I don't think that praying is bad though, and I think that most kids in public schools could definatly stand a prayer once a day.

Basically, don't make it mandatory, but don't rule it out completly.

I'm a lil opposed to it. You shouldn't be praying in school. Pray at home or at church=\

eh.. is this about the pledge of alligence because that's another topic... anyway... i have never really prayed at school... i'm atheist...
and no one forces us... eh.. it's not a big problem like the pledge

Well it depends if the students are religious are not I suppose...

I have a question for you. Does prayer offend you? I've gotten the impression that public school does have prayer because it might offend people, so I was just curious if you are offended or even affected when people pray around you.

most of you still lose the point. Prayers can be said generally with no specific ties to any religion and support most religions. Our school prayer usually goes somewhat like this: Dear God, please let our students continue to strive well in their studies and continue to remain focused on their daily goals. (note, doesnt take that long) As im concerned msot religions have a God if not gods or goddesses and a prayer of petition is a part of many religions. May not be ritual or traditional but it does agree with most religions practiced in the USA. Unless theres a specific religion which specifically states praying is against it's faith.

As someone said this country was built to practice religion freely as you choose. WHat were doing now is stripping this made right from not allowing prayers for those who want/need/support it. Those who dont believe or dont want to do it can plainly not say or believe in it. Everyone's statisfied.

prayer does offend me personally. if i wanted to see and hear people pray then i would go to church. like i stated before. religion is private, school is public. the two should not mix. now if you go to a private school and don't like the fact that there's prayer then there's really nothing you can do about it because you choose to go there and it's a PRIVATE school. it has it's own set of "special" rules. now, if people pray around me and do it silently then i don't care. it's the same thing as me meditating and chanting to the bountiful goddess. it would offend you. the only way i'm against prayer in school is if they do it how they did "back in the day" (that sounds so funny ) and the principal comes over the intercom and reads a scripture from the bible and a prayer. it is impossible to compose a prayer that will reflect the religious beliefs of all students. even non-sectarian prayer infringes upon students who follow no religion. at my school we have the moment of silence and it doesn't bother me AT ALL. and it's funny because just today i was looking at all the people in my english class who said they want prayer in school and during this moment they were talking or doing classwork.


"i pledge allegiance to the flage of the united states of america, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
the "godless" pledge of allegiance, as it was recited by generations of school children before congress inserted a religious phrase, "under god," in 1954. 1954?!?! the congress had no right to do that. separation of church and state! so i think it should be taken out. i don't think it'll happen though...

OH MY GODDESS!do you hear yourself when you speak. i have never heard such ridiculous or ignorant arguments. ah, this shall be fun. first of all, you can not interpret what our forefathers meant and what they did not mean. it says "separation of church and state" there are no loopholes. 2ndly, i hope you understand a little about government because i'm going to explain it to you. the establishment clause proscribes the establishment of religion IN GENERAL-including religious practices. since prayer is a religious exercise, state-supported prayer amounts to the establishment of a religious practice and therefore is unconstitutional! you basically are saying what are forefathers would have allowed and would not have liked. how can you possibly know any of that? that's right... you can't. you're naive and letting your belief clog your mind and ears and all you can see is your opinion and no one else's. lol.

your school chose to separate itself from the government and become a private school. it is a PRIVATE school. therefore it is in no way unfair that the goverment doesn't fund it. taxes are already high enuff as it is. if we were to fund the rich kids' schools as well then it would be financially draining...
i agree with you on the religious studies though. i wish they offered religious classes in high school.
prayers WILL NOT fit under all religions. what about atheists??? to subject someone to listen to prayers that they don't believe in is so selfish to even suggest. you have 16+ hours outside of school to pray. so there goes your "i spend most of the time in school" argument...

i found something today that was very interesting...
even jesus was against school prayer
"thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... but thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret." - Matt. 6:5-6

here are faith groups that oppose government-sponsored prayer in public schools:
national council of churches; american baptist churches, usa; christian church (disciples of christ); the episcopal church; evangelical luteran church in america; friends committee on national legislation; mennonite central committee usa; presbyterian church (usa); general conference of seventh day adventists; united church of christ; united methodist church; unitarian universalist association; american jewish congress; anti-defamation league; central conference of american rabbis; national council of jewish women; north american council of muslim women; soka gakkai international--usa.

athiests do not believe in a god so your prayer would not work. no prayer would work and satisfy every single person....

and just because "most" religions have a god or goddess does not mean prayer should be in school. the only time majority rules in this country is in politics. goddess. i'd hate to think what u people would do if homosexuals outnumbered heterosexuals. lmao. "majority rules" bullshit.

and you can pray!!! just do it silently.

As I said on my first post...

THEY DONT HAVE TO SAY THE PRAYERS!!! or believe in it!


What schools systems are doing is soley beneficial to Athiests. Allowing a time of prayer would satisfy both. Prayer to some is considered sacred time and should be done in a moment of silence. Its very hard to get silence while doing it silently in a class where a lecture is going on or in break when everyone is moving about, lockers clanking, people talking.

If prayers are said religous peoples are satisfied, and athiest dont have to believe or say anything. Their not being forced to. Its like if you guyz have channel one or morning news. You can watch it if you want to. Or you can just sit there and wait for its over if you dont please. But it still gives the benefit to the people who want to know or watch the news. Same as prayers. You can say them and believe in them as their said. Or you can just sit there and wait till their over if you refuse or dont believe in them. But it still gives the benefit to the people who want to say prayers.

There shouldn't be prayer in school. Freedom FROM religion is more like it.

i like to say, live and let live. if the doods praying leave him alone. he doesnt bother you. so dont bother him. if your a christian and before you eat at lunch you pray. so what? people dont start screaming that hes bothering him.

i agree too. i pray before taking tests, i wouldn't want to be discriminated against because i pray, but i wouldn't want to force my classmates to pray either.

i dont really think so because people have different religions and may not think it is right or think it is right. I think it is not right because i believe school is more about learning than praying.

word. :] took the words right out of my mouth.

people don't want to be forced to pray if they don't believe in God, but who are those same people to say that someone else isn't allowed to pray at all? it's a 'live and let live' situation. no one is ever going to be happy if one thing or another is forced upon them. but don't take the coice to pray away from the people who want to do so.

Im kinna for it and against it... If yooh go to a catholic or religious school then yooh should... but if not then dont!!!

it doesnt matter!
prayer can never be banned
its like a thought

you cant discriminate against what someone thinks
the only condition is that it has to be silent
so it will not disrupt anyone or offend anyone

The government cannot support or ban religion

it must be neutral to ALL religions

there's a whole list of guidelines in the United States Department of Education website

search google for it

of course since do not beleive in prayer, you wouldnt understand fully . Jesus is referring this to the hypocrites who try to look all good and holy by fake praying and trying to pray loudly so that people will realize how "holy" they are. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO THE SCHOOL PRAYERS HOWEVER because school prayers are for students who would like to pray at school for school and to be closer with God. not to show off and be hypocritical. and JESUS definetly was NOT against praying in school. did he ever SAY THAT?! no. and besides. desperate times call for desperate measures. like it could almost be the end of the world because it is so chaotic. christians need to pray and ask God for help daily and whenever they possibly can.

sorry if i offended you, but this really ticked me off. if you do not understand the bible, dont repeat what it says and interpret it in such a way that it might confuse fellow christians. To me, this is very insulting.
and also:


these do not oppose prayer in schools. believe me. all the churches i went to in my life were presbyterian, untied methodiest, or chirsitan church. and believe me, i've been to MANY churches in my lifetime. also, if they opposed prayer in school, why would some of the presbyterian churches encourage prayer at schools by teaching students to do so via bible study? same with christian churches. as a matter of fact, i go to a christian church that is also a christian school. and all of them pray at school, and the church itself proposed a required bible study program for students in high school and junior high to learn how to pray for people and how to pray, period. My church is a HUGE korean christian church, known throughtout korea and many other hucrches look up to our pastor and how much our church has done for other churches, etc. Our church is also one of the largest korean churches and one of the leading in missionary funding and direct missionary sending, church building in other foreign countries, etc. within the lessons, they taought us that even if people discriminate you for praying, you should still pray. true, they said that being hypocritical is wrong and praying just for the sake of fame is being wrong, but if you truly were praying for the sake of praying, you should at school, at home, at church, everywhere and anywhere when you need God's support or you want to thank him, etc.


sorry if im being rela b!tchy and all, but this is how i feel about it

I was reading most of the posts..and some of ‘em I wanted to show my views or what I thought was right...i can be wrong..so >.<



God is the only being who has the RIGHT to be whatever he wants to be. God is just. God is also jealous (stated in Bible) because he has the RIGHT to be. We can’t set rules for Him on what he can or can’t do...or what he will or will not do. I’m not saying that God had to do with any of this striking-down-vengeances, but whatever the reason they dropped dead...we have to leave the options open..and not cross off any possibilities just cause it doesn’t make sense to US.



Old Testament is different. In the old testament it states “An eye for an eye” or something like that..but Jesus came and said exactly the opposite..telling us to “turn the other cheek” So..perhaps Jesus dying wasn’t for us to take the opportunity to be dishonest, but it doesn’t mean Jesus’ death didn’t have any effect on how we are now judged.



certain christian leaders of those specified Christian faith groups may have opposed prayer in public schools..but how do you know that even the GENERAL people of those groups opposed prayer in school? The big Christian leaders of our time have loud voices..and often drown many others’.



like Dr3aMeR said..it’s a REALLY hard concept to grasp..if you want to understand it fully ask a really wise Christian leader...i’m not sure if there are people in this forum that would be able to explain it to you..especially through internet.

And something else I’ve been noticing. It seems as if people are picking out the faults and acts of hypocrisy of those who want prayer in public schools are around that area...welps..BIG NEWS we’re not perfect..you’re not either...

Now..myyy views. ^^ At first I thought this topic was asking if prayer should be allowed AT ALL during school...and of course I voted yes without reading the first post...so sorry for my ignorance. Well, now I think that there shouldn’t be specific prayer-time for the whole school to participate in because a certain prayer-time may remind some to pray but it means nothing when it isn’t being used properly..which is often the case. So, if you choose to pray..goshers..PLEASE PRAY and I think that in putting aside your own social/study/etc. time during school would be a lot more meaningful to you and those who are constantly observing you and your actions. Prayer is a step from religion to relationship. It can’t be forced..and I really don’t see the BIG idea as to why it’s ubberly important in having a separate time for it during school..perhaps it's just me..but i tend to pray a lot better alone....o.O

He gave us choices. We make them; whether it be right or wrong.

Co.Oky me has made some very intelligent statements about the core belief on christianity.

But I suggest all of you before you actually do post ignorant posts about christianity interpretation especialy catholic interpretation and our core belief I urge you to look up the CCC or Catholic Catechism of the Church. DOnt worry it has a nice index or you can go here: www.usccb.org

CCC page on prayer

"2650
Prayer cannot be reduced to the spontaneous outpouring of interior impulse: in order to pray, one must have the will to pray. Nor is it enough to know what the Scriptures reveal about prayer: one must also learn how to pray. Through a living transmission (Sacred Tradition) within "the believing and praying Church,"1 the Holy Spirit teaches the children of God how to pray."

The church also supports that people should not be forced to pray. But, not giving the benefit of school time to allow those who will to pray is indirectly forcing people not to pray.

im not against it, but the students that qot no religion...they might be against wit it... buh i dun mind if someone prays in skool... heh............... i dun' usualy pray these days at skool...like my meals...but i pray for my illness and my stomache pain................heh...^^; i dun pray for thankful stuff..but i pray for the pain i have... i think thats not good lols....heh i shuld still thank God...and not complain...but i did complain...so sad