I read in some books that Christians used to not consider people who married outside of church is really married. In other words, if you're parents aren't Christians they're living in sin, thus, you and I are conceived in sin. I don't know if that belief still holds today.

Jews and christians have a common founder and jews were here first, so i guess the credit does go to them rather than the christians who brought the ritual to the US. My bad.

Blindly worshipping the church is not what i or my associates have anything to do with. The church and fellowship with fellow christians and curious non-christians has very little to do with the actual religion of christianity. The church's role is minute, but important don't get me wrong. Marriage is just a public way of showing that two people have been joined together. Have you ever seen "The Fiddler on the Roof"?
The first daughter questioned the tradition of a match maker and he concluded that God was their match maker. If two people join together under God with or without the church they are still married. That is my belief. The legality still may not hold water, but that was not the question.

wanna run that by me again? because i have no idea what you just said. you also called "the first daughter" a he..or..i don't know..

also, i believe "associates" are "business partners", not people of your religion.

No people i associate with. GEEZ.

The father is the HE.

Not everyone homosexual has a choice of being homosexual. Some people have imbalanced hormones and that makes them homosexual.. there would be .. male-ish hormones than female hormones in a girl.. that makes her like ... other girls.

So you're saying that just because some biased scientist says so, criminals don't have to be accountable for their actions. It happens, but it is unjust. People alter their chemical balances themselves. Did you know that? They do

This is true...

sikdragon, you're being ignorant... Can you HONESTLY sit there and LIKE another male in a SEXUAL manner and ENJOY it and not be DISGUSTED with yourself... Could you do this without me telling you to? As if you were to do this on your own on your own instinct?

im being ignorant? anyone can live any way the want, its all a matter of will power.

but can you do it.. and be happy with yourself? and like it... and will have a sexual relationship with another homosexual? Could you do it? WILL you do it and still not look down on yourself?

they don't choose to be gay! why would they WANT to with all the riticule people give them? i'm sure no one WANTS to. it's not their choice.

My best friend is a homosexual... and he's told me that he's always known that he wasn't like all the other boys in his classes.. He told me that he liked boys when he was in 3rd grade... It wasn't some boy puppy loving some girl two rows to the right of him... He liked other boys!... Now, please tell me... how a 3rd grader could just DECIDE out of nowhere that he was going to be homosexual... He didn't even know what it MEANT! No one wants to be shunned by society... No one wants to risk being murdered for being who they are... No one WANTS to be set apart from society, discriminated, or harrassed.

They still choose to do it. Just like a person who steals money from seven-eleven. they do it even though they risk being caught and thrown in jail.

Choice or not, it's their right.

When you steal money from a 7-11, you cause involuntary harm to someone.

When you screw someone consensually, there is no crime involved.

when you lie to someone noone gets hurt, but that is still wrong.

That depends on the situation.

^ Do you not get it? Homosexuality has been around before your mother's mother has been born. People get imbalanced hormones.. HORMONES meaning.. like tosterones and all those things.. those things that make YOU up. The ones that give you puberty and make up who YOU are.

First of all, would you know why people turn gay or are gay? No, you probably don't because you probably, most likely are not gay so you have never seen it through a homosexual person's point of view and don't say that I haven't because I know what I'm talking about.

i disagree with sikdragon. do you thinki will wake up the next day and say to myself, 'i'm going to les today!'?
uhh no.

i got this from a site which the owner is (ohh, gasp) gay;

http://lavished.net/scott.html

thats not the point im not talking about reproduction im talking about rights.

no they don't! they can't control it. it's just like if you like someone, you can't help but like them. it's not like you like anyone you want to. i'm sure if we could control who we like, we'd be a lot happier. trust me, i wish i didn't like the person i do but i can't help it. gay people can't help that they like someone of the same sex.

1. How do you feel about it? Is it okay? Is it wrong? I think it is ok, because they r human just like everyone else,and the only way they r different is because of their sexual orientation.

2. What if you knew someone for years... and then you find out that they were gay/lesbian... would that change the way you feel about them? Would you still respect them? yes i would. i have a gay friend,and that doesnt change our relationship at all.

3. Should it be legal for them to marry? i think it should,because the only difference in their relation ship is they will be married. they alrady have the right to kiss,and to live together.

like what i said before.... you dont choose to be gay . you are born gay


what about straight people ? did you choose to be straight no. you were born straight.... and dont say being straight is normal or shit like that... thats how gay people are made fun of and hide their homosexuality because straight people think its regular to be straight ohh yea..

isn't sodomy a crime?



my bad, i thought this was a gay marriage debate. yes, they should be entitled to life, liberty and property.



So, if you're born gay, it's a defect then. Down's Syndrome is a defect. There's a law saying that mentally retarded people can't own a firearm, because their judgement skills aren't good enough. According to you, homosexuality is a birth defect, yet it's normal?

Where in the first statement do you see me saying being homosexual is a defect? i only said its normal i dont kno where you are coming up with these words...

[quote=pandamonium,Nov 6 2004, 1:09 PM] [/QUOTE]QUOTE
like what i said before.... you dont choose to be gay . you are born gay


what about straight people ? did you choose to be straight no.atleast i kno i didnt. you were born straight.... and dont say being straight is normal or shit like that... thats how gay people are made fun of and hide their homosexuality because straight people think its regular to be straight ohh yea.. [/QUOTE]





Where in the first statement do you see me saying being homosexual is a defect? i only said its normal i dont kno where you are coming up with these words... [/quote]
You say you're born with it. It's detrimental. Hence it's a defect. You acknowledge this. Hence you pretty much say it's a defect. Common sense dude.

[quote=kryogenix,Nov 6 2004, 1:14 PM] QUOTE
like what i said before.... you dont choose to be gay . you are born gay


what about straight people ? did you choose to be straight no.atleast i kno i didnt. you were born straight.... and dont say being straight is normal or shit like that... thats how gay people are made fun of and hide their homosexuality because straight people think its regular to be straight ohh yea.. [/QUOTE]





Where in the first statement do you see me saying being homosexual is a defect? i only said its normal i dont kno where you are coming up with these words... [/QUOTE]
You say you're born with it. It's detrimental. Hence it's a defect. You acknowledge this. Hence you pretty much say it's a defect. Common sense dude. [/quote]
I didnt mean ,in anyway or anyhow, that being born homosexual is a defect. all i meant to say was being homosexual is normal just like being straight... you are born straight arent you? then what about the people born gay they have no choice.. they were born like that... the only reason why people think its bad cause of their religion .. if their religion states that its bad to be homosexual thats when its considered bad. like if you were a christian then probably most christians would think its bad.

And i really dont know how you got being born a homosexual is a defect out of my post..

Kryo, if you twist his words like that, it would also mean you're suggesting that being born straight is a defect. Because you were "born" being straight, right? Hey, you were born with a perfectly normal brain. You were born with it! That's a defect. Born with a perfectly working foot? Defect. Arm? Defect. Tongue? Defect.

Looks like a pretty heated debate.. I can see the logic of both sides of the argument.

1) Deep down, I personally don't like it. Doesn't mean I can't accept it.

2) Respect? Of course.

3) Legalization of gay marriage? From a humanistic point of view, yes I agree it should be.

I guess the thing I don't like is that some like to use it as an excuse for special treatment, and I'm not saying the majority of gay people do.

Coming from a traditional Catholic family, I couldn't see myself turning/becoming/born gay. I guess it's because the "natural" way is to be heterosexual. Being gay doesn't help you survive. From a scientific point of view of natural selection, you basically live in order to pass on your own genes to the next generation. Those with the best adaptations will survive and reproduce. Therefore homosexually isn't logical from a scientific sense.

I guess humans are different with the power of cognition and "feelings." I guess those were the circumstances and conditions that I was born into. But I've learned through being a Catholic that you shouldn't hold things against people. In the end, a human being is a human being. Religion is suppose to fit the people with the times and conditions. And, whether most of us like it or not, times are changing. Maybe religion should too. That's why religion was created wasn't it? To fit the needs of the people it governs. It doesn't mean that the traditional values need to be shifted. It doesn't need to say that the majority of people during biblical times were homosexual. In fact.. I don't think it ever mentions homosexually specifically in the Bible.. But I couldn't be wrong, so if someone finds out, then let me know.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say in the end is that it's not my niche. There are things far worse about people that we accept (i.e. killing, abuse, etc). This is a small thing about people we can learn to accept. Homosexuality doesn't entail killing or anything else. It's just.. Their position they stand in. I don't like homosexuality as a way of living, but it doesn't have to mean I need that as an excuse to not like how they live their life and the person in general. As long as they respect those around them for their positions and not hold it against them, I'm okay. Life is good.

[quote=pandamonium,Nov 6 2004, 1:23 PM]




Where in the first statement do you see me saying being homosexual is a defect? i only said its normal i dont kno where you are coming up with these words... [/QUOTE]
You say you're born with it. It's detrimental. Hence it's a defect. You acknowledge this. Hence you pretty much say it's a defect. Common sense dude. [/QUOTE]
I didnt mean ,in anyway or anyhow, that being born homosexual is a defect. all i meant to say was being homosexual is normal just like being straight... you are born straight arent you? then what about the people born gay they have no choice.. they were born like that... the only reason why people think its bad cause of their religion .. if their religion states that its bad to be homosexual thats when its considered bad. like if you were a christian then probably most christians would think its bad.

And i really dont know how you got being born a homosexual is a defect out of my post.. [/quote]
Have you no common sense? Read my post again. Read it 10 times even. Try to make sense out of it.

Here, I'll save you the trouble of scrolling up.

[quote=kryogenix] You say you're born with it. It's detrimental. Hence it's a defect. You acknowledge this. Hence you pretty much say it's a defect. Common sense dude.[/quote]

read it again. slowly. several times. until you understand what i'm trying to say.


[quote=atpx]  Kryo, if you twist his words like that, it would also mean you're suggesting that being born straight is a defect. Because you were "born" being straight, right? Hey, you were born with a perfectly normal brain. You were born with it! That's a defect. Born with a perfectly working foot? Defect. Arm? Defect. Tongue? Defect.[/quote]

Look at my definition of defect again. DETRIMENTAL. How is a perfectly working arm/foot/brain/tongue detrimental? How is being straight detrimental.?

Jeez, you guys really should read my posts, you don't seem to understand them too well...

Anyway.

Rushx: I feel pretty much the same way. If they don't bother me, why should I hate them? But, many of these guys are hypocrites. They like expressing their gay pride. If I started a hetero pride parade, I would be called a bigot. They tell me to be open minded, but many people i've argued with call the bible "worthless" and "a bundle of lies."

who are we to say what is "normal"... being heterosexual is "normal" now?

in the sense that it's not detrimental to the survivability of the human race, yes, it is normal.

What about bisexuals?

ahaha oooo she gotcha there buddy .. lol maybe using the word detrimental one more time will help. lol

Okay.. What about bisexuals? They're not one or the other. They are the grey area. It's not heaven but it's not hell. It's purgatory. They're not completely aiding the human race so to speak but they're not hindering it either. They are officially the grey area. From an evolutionary point of view, undecidedly useless, so to speak.

Okay okay.. I think what Kryo is trying to point out is just because they're gay doesn't mean they need act high and mighty (does not apply to all homosexuals). They are the minority. They should be protected and given the same rights. Not projected above everyone else. For example, just because I'm smart doesn't mean that I need special treatment. In the end, I think he just wants them to be humble.

That's a defect as well. It's an abnormality in sex drive. They're flip flopping between hetero and homosexual.



HAHAHAH, no. Your point is? How does this help the debate? Just because you can't argue your side doesn't mean you can be a jerk.



Yes, that's exactly what I mean. They have some special double standard because they are the minority. Why should they be allowed to hold up traffic by marching in parades, when if I had a hetero pride parade, people would think I was bigoted?

lol.

2nd quote
i kno what your talking about..being straight and not having a hetero parade but i guess they just want to be heard... they want to be like everyone else and have the same rights. thats all. they dont mean to do anything wrong they are just fighting for what they believe in... just like what your doing right now.. saying what you believe in.. thats why we are in the debate forum.

Maybe when they're granted the rights a hetero person is granted, they'll stop parading for their right for human rights, eh?

well, kryo, there are people who get killed for being gay.

are there people who get killed for being straight?

there's a reason for the double standard.

they're inconveniencing the wrong people then. I don't kill gay people. But I suffer if they hold up traffic in New York. By law, they have equal rights, it's not the government's fault that people want to kill them.



Which rights do you speak of?

if they apply for a parade licence, they cannot be denied it because they are gay.

if you were to deny them the parade licence, you must deny all parade licences.

which means no thanksgiving day parade. no fourth of july parade, no parades, not for anything.

when were they denied a licensce just because they were gay? i recall them marching without a licensce and getting arrested, but I don't remember them getting denied a licensce just because they were gay.

Human rights, kryo.

That all men are created equal.

exactly. they were arrested because they didn't have a licence. so would have anyone.

you complain, but they were arrested for it. what's to complain about?

Okay.. Everyone agrees that they should get equal rights even Kryo. I agree to that too. What the issue is about is marriage, not love. They have all the right in the world to love one another. That's a natural, human right and so that isn't the problem is it? The problem is the government recognizing the union of a homosexual marriage for the purpose of providing the benefits of being married.

So basically, there can be no law saying that they can't love one another or even be together.

I don't understand what demonstrations and parades have to do with this debate? I guess it just goes to say that if you go through the right channels, then there is no reason to be angry at them. I hold up a bank and rob it. So? I get arrested and they complain and suffer. That's just the way things are. You do something wrong, you get punished. I guess what everyone else is trying to say is that they are just fighting for what they believe in, which is perfectly. And I guess the point Kryo is trying to make that their cause shouldn't be at the expense of other people. Do it properly and no one has to complain about anything.

Religion has no place in a discussion like this that applies to a wide variety of people. Religion if only effective on an individual basis for the benefit of the person. Period. (General statement.)

i truly believe that it is wrong... mostly because of my religious beliefs..

they're just trying to get people to think about giving them the same treatment they would a straight person. they don't want to be discriminated against.

and why not civil unions?


civil unions, where they get all they benifits a married couple would get?
marriage would still be between a man and a woman

they want to be able to be married. that's a right. if they're not allowed to get married, it is NOT the same rights as married couples. a benefit they would recieve is knowing that they can legally show their love for eachother with a marraige.

equal rights other people who are straight have, maybe? you say which rights... which other rights do they not have?


I would join in a gay parade even if i weren't gay.... why? because i support them and also believe they should be treated as an equal.

i pretty much agree with that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay... All these people who are against gay marriages.. Let's just pretend that you were denied a right everyone else of a different group still maintained... Let's say... All people who have brown eyes may not eat in a public restaurant... And that included you... How would you feel about this? Or let's say all people with brown eyes are not allowed to buy a car.. or even get married.... !! [gasp]