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mipadi
My supervisor's Toshiba laptop, immediately after restoring with the Toshiba restoration software:



(And I couldn't use our non-crufty Windows XP automagic installer, because it isn't made for tablet PCs, and Microsoft won't let you just download the extra stuff you need to turn Windows XP into Windows XP Tablet PC Edition.)
Harp
Wooow.
Uronacid
That's not Microsoft's fault though. It's the manufacturer. Hate Toshiba for that bloatware problem ;).
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 1 2009, 03:06 PM) *
That's not Microsoft's fault though. It's the manufacturer. Hate Toshiba for that bloatware problem ;).

Hence why the title is "Another reason why I hate PCs", not "Another reason why I hate Microsoft".

Microsoft still sucks for other reasons (today I hate them for the Tablet PC Edition bullshit), but that's not the focus of this thread.
butre
Microsoft monopoly etc.
Amaranthus
Toshiba has a habit of sucking.
Maccabee
its an easy fix but unfortunately 90% percent of pc users dont know how to do it... instead of coming out with vista why didnt microsoft decide to just sell their own pc's using their hardware and software and not added extra crud and done all the modification that all people should do as soon as they get a pc.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 1 2009, 03:31 PM) *
Hence why the title is "Another reason why I hate PCs", not "Another reason why I hate Microsoft".

Microsoft still sucks for other reasons (today I hate them for the Tablet PC Edition bullshit), but that's not the focus of this thread.


Not all PCs are bad. I own a great PC. Don't hate what you don't understand. I don't hate MACs.

QUOTE(jcp @ Sep 1 2009, 10:35 PM) *
its an easy fix but unfortunately 90% percent of pc users dont know how to do it... instead of coming out with vista why didnt microsoft decide to just sell their own pc's using their hardware and software and not added extra crud and done all the modification that all people should do as soon as they get a pc.


Actually...
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 09:37 AM) *
Not all PCs are bad. I own a great PC. Don't hate what you don't understand. I don't hate MACs.

Well, isn't that kind of presumptuous to assume I don't understand PCs? It's not as though I haven't worked with PCs, or used them, or written software for them.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 2 2009, 09:42 AM) *
Well, isn't that kind of presumptuous to assume I don't understand PCs? It's not as though I haven't worked with PCs, or used them, or written software for them.


Considering you didn't just torrent a Tablet Edition CD ISO. I share your frustration with bloatware, but it's not PCs it's Toshiba.
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 10:00 AM) *
Considering you didn't just torrent a Tablet Edition CD ISO. I share your frustration with bloatware, but it's not PCs it's Toshiba.


I manage the IT operations for a research lab. I wasn't fixing my supervisor's computer for fun. When you manage the IT operations in a corporate environment, you don't have the luxury of "just torrent[ing] a Tablet PC Edition CD ISO". You have to maintain documentation for licensing, because if the BSA or another entity decides to audit your software and you don't have a legitimate license, your organization can get into a lot of trouble, and by extension, you can get into a lot of trouble. And yes, our lab gets audited from time to time.

And no, even though we have a volume license for Windows XP, we don't have an explicit license for Tablet PC Edition, which is required by Microsoft.

So no, I can't just simply torrent Tablet PC Edition.

Finally, I'm not going to trust some pirated version of XP on my equipment, which is critical to the operation of the lab.

At any rate, this was more of a tongue-in-cheek/"I had a frustrating day at work" kind of comment. I think you're taking it too personally.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 2 2009, 10:09 AM) *
I manage the IT operations for a research lab. I wasn't fixing my supervisor's computer for fun. When you manage the IT operations in a corporate environment, you don't have the luxury of "just torrent[ing] a Tablet PC Edition CD ISO". You have to maintain documentation for licensing, because if the BSA or another entity decides to audit your software and you don't have a legitimate license, your organization can get into a lot of trouble, and by extension, you can get into a lot of trouble. And yes, our lab gets audited from time to time.

And no, even though we have a volume license for Windows XP, we don't have an explicit license for Tablet PC Edition, which is required by Microsoft.

So no, I can't just simply torrent Tablet PC Edition.

Finally, I'm not going to trust some pirated version of XP on my equipment, which is critical to the operation of the lab.


You aren't pirating the license. The CD doesn't have a license. In fact the CD means nothing. The laptop has a sticker on it that contains a Product Key. That is what costs money.

Also, you can download the CD directly from Microsoft if your IT department has a tech-net subscription.

I will go down with this ship. I won't put my flag up and surrender. When are you going to play Magic the Gathering! I want to destroy you!!!
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 10:23 AM) *
You aren't pirating the license. The CD doesn't have a license. In fact the CD means nothing. The laptop has a sticker on it that contains a Product Key. That is what costs money.


What part of "I don't have a license for Tablet PC Edition" is difficult for you to understand? The laptop doesn't have the sticker on it. Maybe it was rubbed off, maybe it was pulled off, I have no idea. It's an old machine. I don't even know why it's still in use.

And the point still stands: I'm not going to put a torrented copy of software on a semi-critical piece of hardware. Maybe I'd be okay with doing that on my own machine, but not on a machine that matters.

QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 10:23 AM) *
Also, you can download the CD directly from Microsoft if your IT department has a tech-net subscription.


We don't, but thanks for the tip.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point: that this situation is annoying for two reasons:
  1. A lot of PC manufacturers -- not just Toshiba -- put a lot of stupid shit on their laptops, shit that no one finds to be useful.
  2. Microsoft should just bundle the Tablet PC stuff with XP, and automatically enable it when XP is installed on a Tablet PC. For example, Apple bundles tablet functionality with OS X -- they have since OS X 10.0 -- and Apple doesn't even make a tablet PC. Which brings up another valid point: packaging Windows in different bundles is f*cking annoying. How many varieties of XP are there? Let's see: XP Home, XP Pro, XP Tablet PC, XP Media Center, XP Pro 64-bit... I won't even bother counting the number of Vista editions on the market. That's bullshit.
The fact that there are workarounds for the issue aren't the point; the point is that I shouldn't have to fight with the PC and Windows to reinstall software, and with other systems (Mac OS X, Linux, etc.), I don't. Maybe this sounds arrogant, but only Windows users seem willing to put up with this crap. I feel like this is a sort of "shadows on the walls of Plato's cave" situation. You look at the situation and say, "Meh, I'll deal with it, I'm used to jumping through hoops to get a PC up and running." I look at the situation and say, "There must be some way this can be better." At the risk of sounding arrogant again, I'll point out that it's the second mindset that actually promotes innovation.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 2 2009, 10:35 AM) *
What part of "I don't have a license for Tablet PC Edition" is difficult for you to understand? The laptop doesn't have the sticker on it. Maybe it was rubbed off, maybe it was pulled off, I have no idea. It's an old machine. I don't even know why it's still in use.

And the point still stands: I'm not going to put a torrented copy of software on a semi-critical piece of hardware. Maybe I'd be okay with doing that on my own machine, but not on a machine that matters.
We don't, but thanks for the tip.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point: that this situation is annoying for two reasons:
  1. A lot of PC manufacturers -- not just Toshiba -- put a lot of stupid shit on their laptops, shit that no one finds to be useful.
  2. Microsoft should just bundle the Tablet PC stuff with XP, and automatically enable it when XP is installed on a Tablet PC. For example, Apple bundles tablet functionality with OS X -- they have since OS X 10.0 -- and Apple doesn't even make a tablet PC. Which brings up another valid point: packaging Windows in different bundles is f*cking annoying. How many varieties of XP are there? Let's see: XP Home, XP Pro, XP Tablet PC, XP Media Center, XP Pro 64-bit... I won't even bother counting the number of Vista editions on the market. That's bullshit.
The fact that there are workarounds for the issue aren't the point; the point is that I shouldn't have to fight with the PC and Windows to reinstall software, and with other systems (Mac OS X, Linux, etc.), I don't. Maybe this sounds arrogant, but only Windows users seem willing to put up with this crap. I feel like this is a sort of "shadows on the walls of Plato's cave" situation. You look at the situation and say, "Meh, I'll deal with it, I'm used to jumping through hoops to get a PC up and running." I look at the situation and say, "There must be some way this can be better." At the risk of sounding arrogant again, I'll point out that it's the second mindset that actually promotes innovation.


You need to use ProduKey to rip the Product Key off the machine.

As an admin of a network with windows on it, you should always have an install disc for each service pack and version of the Microsoft operating systems. At home I have one clean installation disc for each OS, and upon purchasing a new computer I always reformat and reinstall the OS for that very reason.

I guess I don't consider reinstalling windows a problem with PCs, but a problem with the manufactures. Am I used to jumping through hoops? Yes, but it's not Microsoft's fault.

There are 5 versions of vista. Although, they placed all the versions of vista on one disk. The product key you use determines the version installed.
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 11:12 AM) *
You need to use ProduKey to rip the Product Key off the machine.

As an admin of a network with windows on it, you should always have an install disc for each service pack and version of the Microsoft operating systems. At home I have one clean installation disc for each OS, and upon purchasing a new computer I always reformat and reinstall the OS for that very reason.


You're not really "getting" the problem.

That would be cool if the laptop had Tablet PC edition on it...but it didn't, which is why I had to (a) dig up a copy (from a Toshiba restore CD), and (b) reinstall it. (That's why I had to use a crappy Toshiba restore CD, instead of my usual streamlined, "clean" XP install DVD that also auto-installs goodies like Acrobat Reader, Firefox, Office, etc.) Before, the laptop had Win XP Pro installed on it, rendering the tablet functionality useless. Yeah, that makes sense -- why would anyone want to use the tablet functionality in their tablet PC? And yes, I am a bit frustrated with Microsoft, because Microsoft could just put all the functionality for tablet PCs into Windows, and then automagically enable it on tablet PCs. Apple does this with OS X, for example; the tablet functionality is built-in but disabled until you plug in a tablet, and then it just magically works. Microsoft could do the same.

Secondly, yeah, it'd be great if I had a version of each Windows OS with all the service packs on it, nicely filed away in an organized fashion. Unfortunately, the lab doesn't have a whole staff to manage this, and there have been two other admins in the last eight months, so I'll still rifling though filing cabinets and boxes to find the stuff I need. And this isn't really my job -- I'm a systems programmer, not an IT manager -- but the lab is understaffed so I get stuck doing the IT stuff, too.

QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 11:12 AM) *
I guess I don't consider reinstalling windows a problem with PCs, but a problem with the manufactures. Am I used to jumping through hoops? Yes, but it's not Microsoft's fault.


Isn't that kind of the problem? PC users just expect their PCs to come loaded up with a lot of crap, they expect Windows to come in eight different flavors and maybe not have basic services like tablet functionality built in, and they just accept that and shrug and think that computers are just supposed to work that way and be a pain in the ass to use. Like I said, shadows on the walls of Plato's cave. I just can't accept the fact that it should be a pain in the ass to install a tablet-enabled OS on a tablet PC.

The extra crap on the PC isn't Microsoft's fault at all (I never said it was), but the fact that there're multiple editions of essentially the same operating system is Microsoft's fault. It's especially frustrating since Tablet PC Edition is nothing more than XP Pro + software for tablet functionality, and it would be very easy to just allow people to download that additional software.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 2 2009, 01:01 PM) *
You're not really "getting" the problem.

That would be cool if the laptop had Tablet PC edition on it...but it didn't, which is why I had to (a) dig up a copy (from a Toshiba restore CD), and (b) reinstall it. (That's why I had to use a crappy Toshiba restore CD, instead of my usual streamlined, "clean" XP install DVD that also auto-installs goodies like Acrobat Reader, Firefox, Office, etc.) Before, the laptop had Win XP Pro installed on it, rendering the tablet functionality useless. Yeah, that makes sense -- why would anyone want to use the tablet functionality in their tablet PC? And yes, I am a bit frustrated with Microsoft, because Microsoft could just put all the functionality for tablet PCs into Windows, and then automagically enable it on tablet PCs. Apple does this with OS X, for example; the tablet functionality is built-in but disabled until you plug in a tablet, and then it just magically works. Microsoft could do the same.

Secondly, yeah, it'd be great if I had a version of each Windows OS with all the service packs on it, nicely filed away in an organized fashion. Unfortunately, the lab doesn't have a whole staff to manage this, and there have been two other admins in the last eight months, so I'll still rifling though filing cabinets and boxes to find the stuff I need. And this isn't really my job -- I'm a systems programmer, not an IT manager -- but the lab is understaffed so I get stuck doing the IT stuff, too.
Isn't that kind of the problem? PC users just expect their PCs to come loaded up with a lot of crap, they expect Windows to come in eight different flavors and maybe not have basic services like tablet functionality built in, and they just accept that and shrug and think that computers are just supposed to work that way and be a pain in the ass to use. Like I said, shadows on the walls of Plato's cave. I just can't accept the fact that it should be a pain in the ass to install a tablet-enabled OS on a tablet PC.

The extra crap on the PC isn't Microsoft's fault at all (I never said it was), but the fact that there're multiple editions of essentially the same operating system is Microsoft's fault. It's especially frustrating since Tablet PC Edition is nothing more than XP Pro + software for tablet functionality, and it would be very easy to just allow people to download that additional software.


Whoa, then how did you activate windows if you didn't have a product key. Even with the restore disk you still need to have a product key.

Also, tablets weren't available up until midway through the release of windows xp. They should however at least have the tablet edition functionality available for download. All versions of Vista and Win7 have tablet functionality.
mipadi
QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 01:17 PM) *
Whoa, then how did you activate windows if you didn't have a product key. Even with the restore disk you still need to have a product key.


I do have a product key. Let me summarize the situation:
  1. The install DVD that I use to install XP on all machines -- a nice, pristine copy of XP, which all necessary software like Office 2007, Firefox, etc., auto-installed -- doesn't have tablet PC functionality.
  2. The restore CD for this particular Toshiba laptop does have tablet PC functionality -- but it also installs all the stupid shit that you see on the desktop screenshot, above.

So this leaves two options: (a) install regular XP with no tablet PC functionality, which isn't really an option (since the user wants tablet PC functionality, else should wouldn't have bought a tablet PC; or (b) install with Toshiba's restore CD, which installs a bunch of crap that I don't want on the laptop.

To reiterate: the situation wasn't impossible, just frustrating. I got XP Tablet PC Edition installed. I just feel it could've been easier. Because, you know, on other systems, this is a pretty clean process. It raises two key frustrating points:
  1. PC manufacturers put too much stupid shit on their machines.
  2. XP could and should just have tablet PC functionality enabled if on a tablet PC.

QUOTE(Uronacid @ Sep 2 2009, 01:17 PM) *
Also, tablets weren't available up until midway through the release of windows xp. They should however at least have the tablet edition functionality available for download. All versions of Vista and Win7 have tablet functionality.

Cool, but XP != Vista, unfortunately. Microsoft should allow you to download the Tablet PC stuff and allow you to install it on top of a "genuine" installation of XP...but they don't. sad.gif And I'd love to get people on board with using Vista, since it solves a couple of problems (another perennial problem is with SATA drives -- XP's installer won't always detect SATA hard drives), but no one in the lab likes Vista, so no one will let me install it. Of course, Vista wouldn't run that great on an old Toshiba laptop, anyway.
Uronacid
QUOTE(mipadi @ Sep 2 2009, 02:12 PM) *
I do have a product key. Let me summarize the situation:
  1. The install DVD that I use to install XP on all machines -- a nice, pristine copy of XP, which all necessary software like Office 2007, Firefox, etc., auto-installed -- doesn't have tablet PC functionality.
  2. The restore CD for this particular Toshiba laptop does have tablet PC functionality -- but it also installs all the stupid shit that you see on the desktop screenshot, above.
So this leaves two options: (a) install regular XP with no tablet PC functionality, which isn't really an option (since the user wants tablet PC functionality, else should wouldn't have bought a tablet PC; or (b) install with Toshiba's restore CD, which installs a bunch of crap that I don't want on the laptop.

To reiterate: the situation wasn't impossible, just frustrating. I got XP Tablet PC Edition installed. I just feel it could've been easier. Because, you know, on other systems, this is a pretty clean process. It raises two key frustrating points:
  1. PC manufacturers put too much stupid shit on their machines.
  2. XP could and should just have tablet PC functionality enabled if on a tablet PC.

Cool, but XP != Vista, unfortunately. Microsoft should allow you to download the Tablet PC stuff and allow you to install it on top of a "genuine" installation of XP...but they don't. sad.gif And I'd love to get people on board with using Vista, since it solves a couple of problems (another perennial problem is with SATA drives -- XP's installer won't always detect SATA hard drives), but no one in the lab likes Vista, so no one will let me install it. Of course, Vista wouldn't run that great on an old Toshiba laptop, anyway.


Best wait until windows 7... :/
Jghelfi
haha HELL YEA! WINDOWS 7!! yahoo.gif

hahaha..

i really hate how when you first restore your computer, there are all these programs, that are completly useless, and then you have to go through your whole computer and find them and delete them.. its such a pain for me.. XD.gif
Maccabee
See these are some good things you can use in a mac vs. pc debate. Of course it isnt really the "pc's" fault. It is the company loading it with crap. I think the only good pc's are the ones you make yourself. But most people dont know how.
butre
The major issue in the Macintosh vs Windows debate is that Mac != Windows. Even Mac vs Linux would be a better argument, because they use similar kernels. Comparing BSD to NT is worse than comparing apples to oranges, it's more like comparing apples to steak, in that they both do essentially the same thing (run your computer/make you less hungry), but are completely different (BSD is so far away from NT that it's useless to be in this argument).
sixfive
Steak is better
Jghelfi
hahha
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