Full Version: you can't have it both ways!
mm well christmas was orginally a pagan holiday...the birthdate of the sun god mithras. jesus' real birthday was during the springtime. and easter symbols such as eggs and bunnies were all part of pagan religions. but yea, in the context of the spiritual and celebratory part, i dont feel its right for non-christians to "celebrate". heck, they can give each other as many gifts as they want for no reason just as long as they dont claim to be doing in "the christmas spirit" or the "easter holiday"
QUOTE(Arimalka @ Jul 22 2004, 4:51 PM)
Holidays may have become commercial, but that doesn't mean they're any less special. I mean, aren't the delighted faces of children all around the world opening up presents on Christmas just as special, loving and joyous as the birth of Jeus Christ? Are you saying that just because people don't believe in God, they shouldn't have that great experience? Maybe the "true" meaning of Christmas is being slowly erased, but that's all part of time. When you were a little kid, did you even think of Halloween as an ancient pagan celebration? No, I didn't think so. People have to just go with the flow..
And that's all I have to say..
-Sarah
And that's all I have to say..
-Sarah
And it's very well said.
alright. i won't celebrate christmas. i won't celebrate easter.
on december 25th, i will celebrate pine tree day by spending the day with my family and old st. nick., who has nothing to do with christ (the commercialized verson.
on easter i will celebrate egg day and look for hidden eggs.
and you will not celebrate halloween, valentine's day, christmas, or easter because they are fundementally pagan.
on december 25th, i will celebrate pine tree day by spending the day with my family and old st. nick., who has nothing to do with christ (the commercialized verson.
on easter i will celebrate egg day and look for hidden eggs.
and you will not celebrate halloween, valentine's day, christmas, or easter because they are fundementally pagan.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Jul 22 2004, 5:22 PM)
alright. i won't celebrate christmas. i won't celebrate easter.
on december 25th, i will celebrate pine tree day by spending the day with my family and old st. nick., who has nothing to do with christ (the commercialized verson.
on easter i will celebrate egg day and look for hidden eggs.
and you will not celebrate halloween, valentine's day, christmas, or easter because they are fundementally pagan.
on december 25th, i will celebrate pine tree day by spending the day with my family and old st. nick., who has nothing to do with christ (the commercialized verson.
on easter i will celebrate egg day and look for hidden eggs.
and you will not celebrate halloween, valentine's day, christmas, or easter because they are fundementally pagan.
Geez, now I have to celebrate 'pine tree day' just because some Christians think I'm undeserving to celebrate their holidays... This is so discriminating, it's not even funny anymore.
haha. but they can't celebrate christmas at all.
and they can't celebrate valentine's day, halloween, and easter.
the thing is, christmas and easter aren't christian holidays, originally. the christians stole them from the pagans.
and they can't celebrate valentine's day, halloween, and easter.
the thing is, christmas and easter aren't christian holidays, originally. the christians stole them from the pagans.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Jul 22 2004, 8:10 PM)
haha. but they can't celebrate christmas at all.
and they can't celebrate valentine's day, halloween, and easter.
the thing is, christmas and easter aren't christian holidays, originally. the christians stole them from the pagans.
and they can't celebrate valentine's day, halloween, and easter.
the thing is, christmas and easter aren't christian holidays, originally. the christians stole them from the pagans.
And yet it's okay for them to say heathens are undeserving of celebrating such holidays... Oh, I never knew Christmas and the likes were pagan holidays... I only look forward to Christmas for presents and I used to believe in Santa.
Does anyone know the real history of these holidays? Please enlighten us all on their histories so that each of us, as a human who seek happiness and freedom, can enjoy the holiday seasons together.
I'm serious! This is very discriminating...
Christmas is now more like... national holiday now... really, if it was a religious holiday, we shouldn't get a day off, right? Even though it's meant to be religious one, it's kinda cultural.
I'm an atheist, and I don't celebrate Christmas. I used to when I was actually a Christian, and really believed in salvation and all that stuff.
It's not fair that non-Christian people forget and never seize to recognize the actual meaning of Christmas; but you can't stop those people from not celebrating Christmas.
I'm an atheist, and I don't celebrate Christmas. I used to when I was actually a Christian, and really believed in salvation and all that stuff.
It's not fair that non-Christian people forget and never seize to recognize the actual meaning of Christmas; but you can't stop those people from not celebrating Christmas.
QUOTE
Geez, now I have to celebrate 'pine tree day' just because some Christians think I'm undeserving to celebrate their holidays...
hahaha...uninspiredfae i LOVE ur humor
QUOTE
This is so discriminating, it's not even funny anymore.
don't listen to them. who care's what other ppl think? especially if they're ppl you've never seen before
who cares if other people celebrate it the "wrong" way? i'm Christian, and i celebrate it because it's a day that was set to commemorate Jesus's birth. We still give each other presents, but that's all just the traditional/cultural part of it. i go to church on xmas eve (to celebrate his birth), but besides that, the rest of my xmas holiday is mostly traditional
for those who say that its not fair that non-Christians get to celebrate Christmas...keep crying and keep whining. if you're really that serious about it. don't put up Christmas lights, don't give/receive any gifts....don't do anything except celebrate his birth by praying/worshipping (which is perfectly fine w/ me...but i'm not one of the people who says its unfair)
the only way i'd be pissed about the Christmas issue is if they got rid of the holiday all together (kinda like how they're trying to get rid of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance). if people wanna celebrate it, let them celebrate it. but if they don't want to, then they don't have to.
i think the reason christmas and easter are festive and include presents, trees, eggs, santa, and the bunny is because parents wanted their kids to enjoy christmas/easter, so when they grew up, they could hopefully gain an understanding for what those 2 days really meant. but now, some just celebrate it because its fun, and i have no problem with that (as long as they don't make fun of the religious aspect of it)
i know some people who's parents stopped with the christmas (that we know, gifts and a tree and all) and just prayed.
they hate it.
they hate it.
im buddhists..we celebrate all holidays of ne religion..we're taught to respect all other religions.
so i'd give mai kid a choice of religions he would wanna celebrate..it doesnt have to be Christmas..
so yea i can have it both ways..do u, being a christian, not respect mai religion?
so i'd give mai kid a choice of religions he would wanna celebrate..it doesnt have to be Christmas..
so yea i can have it both ways..do u, being a christian, not respect mai religion?
QUOTE(kryogenix @ Jul 2 2004, 7:33 PM)
Good for you! I'm glad you realize that this is unfair. People at school ridicule religion yet they look forward to getting Christmas presents.
i knoe exactly wut u mean.. theres no point in sayin no i hate religion but then agen turn around and celebrate a RELIGIOUS holiday i dont get it.. but ya knoe let them do that and see wut happens after they die
QUOTE([i)
LLMATiC,Aug 5 2004, 1:37 PM] i knoe exactly wut u mean.. theres no point in sayin no i hate religion but then agen turn around and celebrate a RELIGIOUS holiday i dont get it.. but ya knoe let them do that and see wut happens after they die
Hehe, sorry to be rude but please... SHUT THE HECK UP.
My Christian friends don't even say that to me because they know that GOOD Christians do not judge others because only God can do that! It's the MOST basic, BASIC, basic rule in Christianity.
which makes most the world not good christains.
there is no such thing as a good christian. if you're human, and were born, then you aren't good. simple as that. right?
i maintian, the whole idea of HEAVEN and HELL IS and ADVERTISMENT!!!!! LOOOK AT IT WITHOUT BLIND FAITH AND YOU WILL SEEEEEE.
if you don't belive in me, you'll burn in eternity. if you do belive in me, you'll be in paradise.
ADVERTISMENT!!!!
ahh, the rantings of a madman.
there is no such thing as a good christian. if you're human, and were born, then you aren't good. simple as that. right?
i maintian, the whole idea of HEAVEN and HELL IS and ADVERTISMENT!!!!! LOOOK AT IT WITHOUT BLIND FAITH AND YOU WILL SEEEEEE.
if you don't belive in me, you'll burn in eternity. if you do belive in me, you'll be in paradise.
ADVERTISMENT!!!!
ahh, the rantings of a madman.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Aug 5 2004, 2:06 PM)
which makes most the world not good christains.
there is no such thing as a good christian. if you're human, and were born, then you aren't good. simple as that. right?
i maintian, the whole idea of HEAVEN and HELL IS and ADVERTISMENT!!!!! LOOOK AT IT WITHOUT BLIND FAITH AND YOU WILL SEEEEEE.
if you don't belive in me, you'll burn in eternity. if you do belive in me, you'll be in paradise.
ADVERTISMENT!!!!
ahh, the rantings of a madman.
there is no such thing as a good christian. if you're human, and were born, then you aren't good. simple as that. right?
i maintian, the whole idea of HEAVEN and HELL IS and ADVERTISMENT!!!!! LOOOK AT IT WITHOUT BLIND FAITH AND YOU WILL SEEEEEE.
if you don't belive in me, you'll burn in eternity. if you do belive in me, you'll be in paradise.
ADVERTISMENT!!!!
ahh, the rantings of a madman.
u make a good point..
enlightenment is da way fo me..buddhism rocks! :]
even in certain sects of buddhism there is a heaven and hell..its juss advertisement..as u so eloquently put it..
... christmas ... so youre saying ... only CHRiSTiANS can celebrate christmas ? well .. what about muh presents ? 
no, we've proven that christians that think only they can celebrate christmas and easter, exc are just stupid. in fact, they shouldn't 'celebrate' them anyways.
waht if jesus isnt real and never was heard? and somehow someone made up the national day called christmas but didnt know what christ mean jsut another word and its a day to give presents and be happy huh? would it matter to you if you were the only one on this universe to know that there is a god im pretty sure u dont get what i mean
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Aug 6 2004, 4:08 PM)
no, we've proven that christians that think only they can celebrate christmas and easter, exc are just stupid. in fact, they shouldn't 'celebrate' them anyways.
A pretty damn good Christian confirmed that the Winter Holidays were, indeed, the Pagan's tradition. In fact, he said that Christ was born sometime in September and not in December at all. Christians decided to celebrate "Christmas" during the Winter Holidays because they wanted Pagans to forget their traditions and celebrate Christians traditions instead... Or something like that.
Interesting... no? So, who wants to challenge my source? He wants to be a frickin Minister, so I think he has a pretty firm grasp of his faith. I haven't researched anything to confirm his words, but I trust him enough for now.
yea, i know the christians stole a lot of pagan holidays, to convince pagans to convert.
and that's why the christians shouldn't celebrate them. they aren't truely christian holidays.
and that's why the christians shouldn't celebrate them. they aren't truely christian holidays.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Aug 7 2004, 10:24 AM)
yea, i know the christians stole a lot of pagan holidays, to convince pagans to convert.
and that's why the christians shouldn't celebrate them. they aren't truely christian holidays.
and that's why the christians shouldn't celebrate them. they aren't truely christian holidays.
So Hah! We shouldn't even have this topic... this title should be changed to: "How Christians STOLE Christmas".
I don't mean to offend Christians out there, but saying that non-Christians shouldn't celebrate the Winter Holidays because we don't have a right is... ridiculous, because this holiday simply doesn't belong to Christians.
well, seeing as how it's nearing holidays, let's ressurect this topic.
there are two christmasses in america, the christan one and the american one.
in the christian one you attend mass.
in the american one, you give gifts, recieve, set up christmas trees, etc.
furthermore, both holidays are stolen from the roman "saturnalia" festival.
so if fact it should be all non romans should not celebrate christmas.
there are two christmasses in america, the christan one and the american one.
in the christian one you attend mass.
in the american one, you give gifts, recieve, set up christmas trees, etc.
furthermore, both holidays are stolen from the roman "saturnalia" festival.
so if fact it should be all non romans should not celebrate christmas.
I guess it doesn't really matter if non-Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter, does it? Well but sadly, X'mas and Easter has turned materialistic. =(
http://www.chestnutcafe.com/cafe/X-Mas.html
[Edited by me to get rid of some expletives]
QUOTE
Merry Christmas, boys and girls!
THIS is the story of Christmas and how it all began!
A long, long time ago, Germanic, Roman, and Celtic people celebrated the Winter Solstice. Once a year, they dressed their homes up with Holly, mistletoe, yule logs, and wassail bowls and even decorated a tree! Today, we call these people Pagans. The word "Yule-tide", meaning "wheel time" (the cycles of time) is a term that refers to these old Pagan celebrations.
During the 3rd and 4th centuries B.C.E., the Persian Mithras would sacrifice a bull on December 25 to celebrate the Sol Invictus (the Invincible Sun). The ceremony signaled the birth of a young Sun God who sprang from a rock or a cave in the form of a newborn infant.
The ancient Romans celebrated the festival of the Saturnalia from December 17th to the 24th to honor Saturn, the god of grain and agriculture. The festival consisted of a period of goodwill, devoted to visiting friends and the giving of gifts. Then, on December 25th, the Romans would celebrate the Winter Solstice in a ceremony of the annual renewing of the Sun.
On December 25th 354 C.E., Pope Liberus introduced the Nativity - a celebration of the birth of the Christ Child. He chose December 25th in order to Christianize the Pagan rituals of the time. Thus, Pope Liberus began the custom of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, and this celebration grew in popularity as the Pagan rituals of Mithra and Saturnalia that were formerly celebrated on the 25th of December slowly faded in popularity.
Today, we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ with ornaments on trees, with mistletoe, and with the giving of gifts. And THAT, boys and girls, is the story of how the Christians stole the perfectly good Pagan holiday of the Winter Solstice, stuck it up the *** of a 300 year old dead guy named Jesus who probably wasn't even born on the 25th, and called it Christmas. Merry Christmas! The End.
THIS is the story of Christmas and how it all began!
A long, long time ago, Germanic, Roman, and Celtic people celebrated the Winter Solstice. Once a year, they dressed their homes up with Holly, mistletoe, yule logs, and wassail bowls and even decorated a tree! Today, we call these people Pagans. The word "Yule-tide", meaning "wheel time" (the cycles of time) is a term that refers to these old Pagan celebrations.
During the 3rd and 4th centuries B.C.E., the Persian Mithras would sacrifice a bull on December 25 to celebrate the Sol Invictus (the Invincible Sun). The ceremony signaled the birth of a young Sun God who sprang from a rock or a cave in the form of a newborn infant.
The ancient Romans celebrated the festival of the Saturnalia from December 17th to the 24th to honor Saturn, the god of grain and agriculture. The festival consisted of a period of goodwill, devoted to visiting friends and the giving of gifts. Then, on December 25th, the Romans would celebrate the Winter Solstice in a ceremony of the annual renewing of the Sun.
On December 25th 354 C.E., Pope Liberus introduced the Nativity - a celebration of the birth of the Christ Child. He chose December 25th in order to Christianize the Pagan rituals of the time. Thus, Pope Liberus began the custom of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, and this celebration grew in popularity as the Pagan rituals of Mithra and Saturnalia that were formerly celebrated on the 25th of December slowly faded in popularity.
Today, we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ with ornaments on trees, with mistletoe, and with the giving of gifts. And THAT, boys and girls, is the story of how the Christians stole the perfectly good Pagan holiday of the Winter Solstice, stuck it up the *** of a 300 year old dead guy named Jesus who probably wasn't even born on the 25th, and called it Christmas. Merry Christmas! The End.
[Edited by me to get rid of some expletives]
i feel like this about Christmas. Yeah Christians celebrate it as the day in which Jesus was born on to this planet. And Easter is the day in which Jesus was born again. But i feel that for christmas there is more things to celebrate. Giving, Being with your family and loved ones, and showing you over all love for those close to you. Easter on the other hand can really be taken for face value and that is the religous side. So i dont celebrate it with the rest of my family....i usually spend the day in my room...but i do go and meet with my family for dinner. As for Christmas being a Christian thing.....did you kno the Santa Claus is an Islamic belief. He started in Turkey as father Winter. Yet we throw him into our christmas and call it a christian holiday...i find that interesting
wow... harsh... do you celebrate halloween? because thats not christian holiday thats the pagan new year.... people celebrate christmas because it was probly originally part of their religion since the christians and catholics stole it like they stole most of their other holiedays, (including easter, originally Estraa)... i will openly admit that i dont belive in religion, i belive religion weakens you, and i always reject and badmouth jesus because to me if i dont belive in him thats like me saying somthin bad about the sky... my point... people should get offended...
well i hope you understand this, have a nutty, bloody dead-mas.
well i hope you understand this, have a nutty, bloody dead-mas.
It does seems strange that everyone is given christmas off from work, when it's a christian celebration. Yet no other religion is given that standing in society.
We delebrate the comercialised form of Christmas, I dont think it counts as a religious experience or is exclusively religious unless you have something in your celebration to recognise the birth of christ. Christmas is about santa comming and leaving gifts and thats not religious at all.
We delebrate the comercialised form of Christmas, I dont think it counts as a religious experience or is exclusively religious unless you have something in your celebration to recognise the birth of christ. Christmas is about santa comming and leaving gifts and thats not religious at all.
QUOTE(xtrashx @ Dec 9 2004, 8:53 AM)
wow... harsh... do you celebrate halloween? because thats not christian holiday thats the pagan new year.... people celebrate christmas because it was probly originally part of their religion since the christians and catholics stole it like they stole most of their other holiedays, (including easter, originally Estraa)... i will openly admit that i dont belive in religion, i belive religion weakens you, and i always reject and badmouth jesus because to me if i dont belive in him thats like me saying somthin bad about the sky... my point... people should get offended...
well i hope you understand this, have a nutty, bloody dead-mas.
well i hope you understand this, have a nutty, bloody dead-mas.
I don't, I go to church and celebrate All Saint's Day eve. We do give candy though.
Don't accuse Catholics for stealing holidays. The celebrations are warranted (Birth of Christ, Ressurection of Christ). The Church moved it to the present dates to make it easier to convert pagans.
What I don't understaned is, if people claim that God doesn't exist, why do they badmouth him? Why is your intent to offend, rather than enlight?
all saints day's eve is another stolen holiday.
the church didn't just 'move' the holidays... they took the holidays. if the holidays were simply moved, all you would do on christmas is attend mass, which i know some people who are devot christians do that.
the church didn't just 'move' the holidays... they took the holidays. if the holidays were simply moved, all you would do on christmas is attend mass, which i know some people who are devot christians do that.
I say if non-christian want to celebrate santa insted of Christ they give it a new name... Santamas?? It's not right to take a religous holiday and turn it into an excuse to buy junk. It's disrespectful.
I also think that (in schools at least) days with any religous significance should be given off. Take a few weeks off summer vacation. That way it won't be a problem if you have a date to celebrate, and if you don't-- hey you gegt the day off! Children won't feel so different if everyone gets the same days off.
I also think that (in schools at least) days with any religous significance should be given off. Take a few weeks off summer vacation. That way it won't be a problem if you have a date to celebrate, and if you don't-- hey you gegt the day off! Children won't feel so different if everyone gets the same days off.
it disrespectful to steal a holiday, call it your own, name it for your religon, and tell everyone else they can't celebrate it.
QUOTE(picaso_smile @ Dec 9 2004, 8:15 PM)
I say if non-christian want to celebrate santa insted of Christ they give it a new name... Santamas?? It's not right to take a religous holiday and turn it into an excuse to buy junk. It's disrespectful.
Read the whole thread, please?
Christmas wasn't originally a Christian holiday. You're the one who's being disrespectful and not to mention, a jerk. Why must you be prejudiced about how non-Christians celebrate the holiday season? What happened to free will?
QUOTE
Don't accuse Catholics for stealing holidays. The celebrations are warranted (Birth of Christ, Ressurection of Christ). The Church moved it to the present dates to make it easier to convert pagans.
Christ is said to be born in September and resurrected in April (?) though, so what does anything has to do with December? If the Church moved it to the present dates to make it easier on pagan conversion, then why criticize those who celebrate it for what it originally was and NOT for the purpose of the birth of Christ? I don't see a problem with different groups of people celebrating different beliefs, ideals, fun at the same time of the year. It's the season that brings different groups of people together. People call it Christmas because it's almost a commercialized term, a word that has integrated into the American mainstream that signifies the Winter holidays in general.
QUOTE
What I don't understaned is, if people claim that God doesn't exist, why do they badmouth him? Why is your intent to offend, rather than enlight?
Who would badmouth Him for no apparent reason? Usually, I only offend when I feel offended.
QUOTE
Read the whole thread, please?
Christmas wasn't originally a Christian holiday. You're the one who's being disrespectful and not to mention, a jerk. Why must you be prejudiced about how non-Christians celebrate the holiday season? What happened to free will?
Christmas wasn't originally a Christian holiday. You're the one who's being disrespectful and not to mention, a jerk. Why must you be prejudiced about how non-Christians celebrate the holiday season? What happened to free will?
She wasnt being prejudice about anything, she was only pointing out the reason for this topic.... "you can't have it both ways!" as kryogenix made.
QUOTE
it disrespectful to steal a holiday, call it your own, name it for your religon, and tell everyone else they can't celebrate it.
Accordingly, it wasnt stolen...... they were just celebrating the winter holiday... it just so happens it is advertised as "Christmas" through America, just like uninspired fae said below
QUOTE
Christ is said to be born in September and resurrected in April (?) though, so what does anything has to do with December? If the Church moved it to the present dates to make it easier on pagan conversion, then why criticize those who celebrate it for what it originally was and NOT for the purpose of the birth of Christ? I don't see a problem with different groups of people celebrating different beliefs, ideals, fun at the same time of the year. It's the season that brings different groups of people together. People call it Christmas because it's almost a commercialized term, a word that has integrated into the American mainstream that signifies the Winter holidays in general.
QUOTE(pandamonium @ Dec 9 2004, 9:45 PM)
She wasnt being prejudice about anything, she was only pointing out the reason for this topic.... "you can't have it both ways!" as kryogenix made.
I don't think you understand the situation here. What's being said is that some Christians and Catholics tend to resent those who celebrate the holiday season because they think that it's for the wrong reason.
What I'm saying is that there IS NOT a right reason to celebrate the holidays because it doesn't solely belong to any one religion, faith, or culture. To resent for such a reason would be prejudice. Explain to me why you think that it's not prejudice for people to resent those who celebrate Christmas while not believing in Christ because that fact is VERY clear to me.
QUOTE
Accordingly, it wasnt stolen...... they were just celebrating the winter holiday... it just so happens it is advertised as "Christmas" through America, just like uninspired fae said below
What Mr. Acid meant was to retaliate to the person who said those who celebrate Christmas as an "excuse to buy junk" is disrespectful. It's disrespectful that people claim that Christ was born on December 25th, when the truth is that He wasn't.
There isn't a need for one solid reason to celebrate the Winter Holidays. There can be many reasons and it doesn't matter who is right because no one has a "right" to own the holiday seasons.
i dont take things so literally. i think of xmas as a time to give and get together with friends and family, i dont understand how people doing this can bother you so much?
QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Dec 9 2004, 10:35 PM)
What I'm saying is that there IS NOT a right reason to celebrate the holidays because it doesn't solely belong to any one religion, faith, or culture.
How does Christmas not belong to Christians? How does Hanakah not belnog to the Jewish? Please explain this reasoning to me.
Also, some holidays may have been started to over shadow or compete with rival pagen religions way back when, but the meaning of those holidays still remains.
christmas in american does not belong to christians.
christmas mass belongs to christians. christmas belongs to everyone.
Christmas started as a harvest/ winter solstice festival, and was adopted by christian leaders in an effort to make christianity more appealing. however, the old pagan festivals remained, making it rather unchristian.
as time went on, people added customs, etc. to christmas. for example the christmas tree was a german ( i think) tradition what was brought over by immigrants.
however, by now christmas has become something else. christmas is a time to help people, a time for caring and giving, a time for family. this is what christmas in america is about. it's about having fun making gingerbread houses with your parents (i still remeber it from 1st grade... one of my favorite memories), it's about giving money to charitys, it's about giving gifts to give them. getting gifts doesn't hurt either. it's about trimming the tree with your family, and having a day totally devoted to family. that's what christmas in america is about.
now, catholic christmas does not involve that. it involves going to christmas mass, and that's all that it includes.
why should not americans celebrate christmas in america, which has changed it's meaning? (many times)
the meaning of christmas does not remain. it was not started to overshadow pagan festivals, it was to give pagans a reasurance that the church would not prohibit thier festivals if they converted, therefore making christanity more appealing as pagans could keep thier festivals.
christmas mass belongs to christians. christmas belongs to everyone.
Christmas started as a harvest/ winter solstice festival, and was adopted by christian leaders in an effort to make christianity more appealing. however, the old pagan festivals remained, making it rather unchristian.
as time went on, people added customs, etc. to christmas. for example the christmas tree was a german ( i think) tradition what was brought over by immigrants.
however, by now christmas has become something else. christmas is a time to help people, a time for caring and giving, a time for family. this is what christmas in america is about. it's about having fun making gingerbread houses with your parents (i still remeber it from 1st grade... one of my favorite memories), it's about giving money to charitys, it's about giving gifts to give them. getting gifts doesn't hurt either. it's about trimming the tree with your family, and having a day totally devoted to family. that's what christmas in america is about.
now, catholic christmas does not involve that. it involves going to christmas mass, and that's all that it includes.
why should not americans celebrate christmas in america, which has changed it's meaning? (many times)
the meaning of christmas does not remain. it was not started to overshadow pagan festivals, it was to give pagans a reasurance that the church would not prohibit thier festivals if they converted, therefore making christanity more appealing as pagans could keep thier festivals.
QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Dec 9 2004, 9:29 PM)
Christ is said to be born in September and resurrected in April (?) though, so what does anything has to do with December? If the Church moved it to the present dates to make it easier on pagan conversion, then why criticize those who celebrate it for what it originally was and NOT for the purpose of the birth of Christ? I don't see a problem with different groups of people celebrating different beliefs, ideals, fun at the same time of the year. It's the season that brings different groups of people together. People call it Christmas because it's almost a commercialized term, a word that has integrated into the American mainstream that signifies the Winter holidays in general.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say. Christmas is not Christmas without Christ. Although, it can be said that giving gifts and getting together can represent the Nativity. Still, it is not right to call it Christmas when one does not believe in Jesus Christ. That would be like celebrating Martin Luther King Jr. Day while denying MLK JR ever existed. In fact, if I remember correctly we don't celebrate MLK day on his birthday, it's like the first monday of the first week of the month. Does that take away from the good MLK has done? Does that take away the reason for celebration?
It's the commercialization of Christmas that bothers me. People who ARE Christians forget the real meaning. That is what really scares me. This is the reason why we must reclaim the name of Christmas, to avoid confusion.
QUOTE
Who would badmouth Him for no apparent reason? Usually, I only offend when I feel offended.
xtrashx does.
What about Jesus Christ offends you? (not sure if that is what you meant by your last line)
Really, people at my school badmouth God and Jesus, as if they were criminals. Why hate people who have (in the bible) done so much good? Just because one thinks they are made up doesn't justify their contempt for God. If they must hate someone, hate the false prophets and the ones who give incorrect information (like the people who exploited christianity to make money or the sex offenders). Just don't hate everyone who follows a particular religion.
QUOTE(picaso_smile @ Dec 10 2004, 5:01 PM)
How does Christmas not belong to Christians? How does Hanakah not belnog to the Jewish? Please explain this reasoning to me.
That's why I asked you to read the whole damn thread, the answer was already said many times.
Once again, the term Christmas may belong to Christians but it has become commercialized and intergrated into the mainstream to define the winter holidays in general. We can say Christmas or Winter Holidays, who gives a shit? The Holiday itself isn't Christian unless you want to celebrate for Christian purposes. If a person want to celebrate it for Winter holiday purposes then what's it to you?
And while you think that it's disrespectful for us to celebrate the Winter holidays while calling it Christmas, we think it's disrespectful for you to change the month of birth of Jesus Christ from September to December.
QUOTE
Also, some holidays may have been started to over shadow or compete with rival pagen religions way back when, but the meaning of those holidays still remains.
Uh, what the hell do you mean? Yes, the meaning of those holiday still remains. The fact Christians called Yule or Mithras Christmas doen't mean that December 25th's only purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christ. It's also to celebrate Yule and Mithras and other ORIGINAL holidays. So, yes you're right that the meaning of thet those holidays remain.
Once again, Christians DO NOT OWN December 25th.
QUOTE
Really, people at my school badmouth God and Jesus, as if they were criminals. Why hate people who have (in the bible) done so much good? Just because one thinks they are made up doesn't justify their contempt for God. If they must hate someone, hate the false prophets and the ones who give incorrect information (like the people who exploited christianity to make money or the sex offenders). Just don't hate everyone who follows a particular religion.
my contempt for god and jesus stems not directly from them. it stems from:
1. the fact that nonchristians are viewed as inferior by them and the bible
2. a non christian has no changce of geting into heaven in the bible
3. people touting jesus and shoving it in people's faces.
don't get me wrong, i do not hate all christians. my two best friends are devout catholics. i just hate christains who think nonchristians are inferior, etc.
and no, although i hvae not read the bible, i do know more about christianity than some 'christains'.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Dec 10 2004, 5:25 PM)
my contempt for god and jesus stems not directly from them. it stems from:
1. the fact that nonchristians are viewed as inferior by them and the bible
2. a non christian has no changce of geting into heaven in the bible
3. people touting jesus and shoving it in people's faces.
don't get me wrong, i do not hate all christians. my two best friends are devout catholics. i just hate christains who think nonchristians are inferior, etc.
1. the fact that nonchristians are viewed as inferior by them and the bible
2. a non christian has no changce of geting into heaven in the bible
3. people touting jesus and shoving it in people's faces.
don't get me wrong, i do not hate all christians. my two best friends are devout catholics. i just hate christains who think nonchristians are inferior, etc.
can you cite lines that prove this?
As far as I believe, Jesus and God love EVERYONE equally. In fact, Jesus dined with sinners, rather with the Jewish priests. And to prove he loves all of us, he died on a cross.
I don't believe in saying "I believe in Jesus, i'm better than you."
QUOTE
I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say. Christmas is not Christmas without Christ. Although, it can be said that giving gifts and getting together can represent the Nativity. Still, it is not right to call it Christmas when one does not believe in Jesus Christ. That would be like celebrating Martin Luther King Jr. Day while denying MLK JR ever existed. In fact, if I remember correctly we don't celebrate MLK day on his birthday, it's like the first monday of the first week of the month. Does that take away from the good MLK has done? Does that take away the reason for celebration?
So are you bothered with people using the now seemingly patented term "Christmas" instead of Winter Holidays because that's what I am feeling. It seems that while people want to spread the word and love of Christ, they also want the love of Christ to be exclusive. Meaning, only Christians are allowed to say Christmas... If that's the case, then blame the Pope for choosing Christmas to be on December 25th.
QUOTE
It's the commercialization of Christmas that bothers me. People who ARE Christians forget the real meaning. That is what really scares me. This is the reason why we must reclaim the name of Christmas, to avoid confusion.
Then it's okay to say that Christians are forgetting the meaning of Christmas but the rest of us are just using Christmas in place for Winter holidays. Once again, blame the pope for using a day that's already celebrated, instead of using Jesus Christ's real birthday, for the motive of conversion.
QUOTE
xtrashx does.
What about Jesus Christ offends you? (not sure if that is what you meant by your last line)
Really, people at my school badmouth God and Jesus, as if they were criminals. Why hate people who have (in the bible) done so much good? Just because one thinks they are made up doesn't justify their contempt for God. If they must hate someone, hate the false prophets and the ones who give incorrect information (like the people who exploited christianity to make money or the sex offenders). Just don't hate everyone who follows a particular religion.
What about Jesus Christ offends you? (not sure if that is what you meant by your last line)
Really, people at my school badmouth God and Jesus, as if they were criminals. Why hate people who have (in the bible) done so much good? Just because one thinks they are made up doesn't justify their contempt for God. If they must hate someone, hate the false prophets and the ones who give incorrect information (like the people who exploited christianity to make money or the sex offenders). Just don't hate everyone who follows a particular religion.
Christ doesn't offend me until people push His words in my face. I wrote a little note to you in another thread about what kind of things tick me off when people talk about religion.
Personally, I don't think discussing God and Jesus as pushing but things like "God is the ONLY truth" would set me off a little.
I'll have to write later, must get back to work.
i celebrate christmas, but we don't like, pray or anything for it. we just decorate and give presents. i also celebrate hannukah. my mom's jewish, my dad's christian, i'm agnostic and my sister doesn't know what the heck she believes in. we celebrate both to be fair to both sides of our family. my mom's side is heavily jewish, and my dad's side is christian. it's a family thing, not a religious one.
edit;;
the world is heavily influenced by christmas. our school calls our winter break "christmas break". kids can't go to school and sit there while all their friends talk about christmas when they don't celebrate it. people are influenced when they're young. little johnny would go home and be like "how come i didn't get any presents for christmas?" little kids can't choose whether they're christian or not, it's whatever their parent believes until they get enough information to believe otherwise. you can't tell them they can't celebrate christmas and all their friends can - that could traumatize a small child.
edit;;
the world is heavily influenced by christmas. our school calls our winter break "christmas break". kids can't go to school and sit there while all their friends talk about christmas when they don't celebrate it. people are influenced when they're young. little johnny would go home and be like "how come i didn't get any presents for christmas?" little kids can't choose whether they're christian or not, it's whatever their parent believes until they get enough information to believe otherwise. you can't tell them they can't celebrate christmas and all their friends can - that could traumatize a small child.
I may not believe, really. I don't have a religion of sorts, or care to in the near future. What I do, though, is celebrate the time to be with friends and family.
You don't have to be really religious, per say, to celebrate in activities that involve friends and family. It is move over a tradition that has been marked so people can put them selves aside for a moment to share themselves with others, and enjoy what time they do have.
I do have to say I don't agree that you have to be religious to celebrate a religious holiday, such as Christmas, or Easter.
Afterwards, some people may even think of joining a religion. Seems kind of odd, but it is possible.
You really need to think of everyone, and anyone. There is a type of person who probably has a family of Mormons and celebrates Hannukah.
It really doesn't matter.
What does matter, though, is the time you spend with loved ones, and to let them know you care.
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You don't have to be really religious, per say, to celebrate in activities that involve friends and family. It is move over a tradition that has been marked so people can put them selves aside for a moment to share themselves with others, and enjoy what time they do have.
I do have to say I don't agree that you have to be religious to celebrate a religious holiday, such as Christmas, or Easter.
Afterwards, some people may even think of joining a religion. Seems kind of odd, but it is possible.
You really need to think of everyone, and anyone. There is a type of person who probably has a family of Mormons and celebrates Hannukah.
It really doesn't matter.
What does matter, though, is the time you spend with loved ones, and to let them know you care.
-
QUOTE
As far as I believe, Jesus and God love EVERYONE equally. In fact, Jesus dined with sinners, rather with the Jewish priests. And to prove he loves all of us, he died on a cross.
if this is true and he loves everyone equally, then when everyone is dead wouldnt god and jesus let everyone comeup and party wit them? so why is there a hell, i dont think your gonna let somoone you"love" go to tthe flames that burn but doesnot consume.
I dont hate the people, i just hate the religion, i dont understand the fact taht supposedly if god is everywehre then why do you have to go to this church every sunday and listen to someguy that looks like dracula tell you wut you must belive in..... YOUR HUMANS!!!... belive in wut you wanna belive, personally i choose no religion.... spirituality is key
its funny...the first presents were the ones that the wise men(there were more than 3 and they didnt reach bethlehem until jesus was around 2) brought to the young child. Atheists and other religions complain when christians pray and incorporate religion into the govt or school, but yet in reality...they actually celebrate our holidays!
QUOTE(Oh4SuChSwEeTnEsS @ Dec 13 2004, 10:23 PM)
its funny...the first presents were the ones that the wise men(there were more than 3 and they didnt reach bethlehem until jesus was around 2) brought to the young child. Atheists and other religions complain when christians pray and incorporate religion into the govt or school, but yet in reality...they actually celebrate our holidays!
Read the thread... December 25th isn't solely a Christian holiday.
QUOTE(Oh4SuChSwEeTnEsS @ Dec 13 2004, 9:23 PM)
its funny...the first presents were the ones that the wise men(there were more than 3 and they didnt reach bethlehem until jesus was around 2) brought to the young child. Atheists and other religions complain when christians pray and incorporate religion into the govt or school, but yet in reality...they actually celebrate our holidays!
i'm sure there were presents before that.
we will complain that you stole someone's holiday and now won't give it back.
celebrate jesus's birth in september, please, if you don't want non-christians celebrating christmas.
QUOTE(sadolakced acid @ Dec 13 2004, 10:41 PM)
i'm sure there were presents before that.
we will complain that you stole someone's holiday and now won't give it back.
celebrate jesus's birth in september, please, if you don't want non-christians celebrating christmas.
we will complain that you stole someone's holiday and now won't give it back.
celebrate jesus's birth in september, please, if you don't want non-christians celebrating christmas.
How would there be Christmas presents before that if that if those presents were given on Christmas, starting the tradition of the Christmas gift.
I think we should celebrate Christmas in September. But, then people would still celebrate Christmas on the 25 and call it Christmas................ Maybe December 25 should be called Presentmas? Or Giftmas??
QUOTE
if this is true and he loves everyone equally, then when everyone is dead wouldnt god and jesus let everyone comeup and party wit them? so why is there a hell, i dont think your gonna let somoone you"love" go to tthe flames that burn but doesnot consume.
I dont hate the people, i just hate the religion, i dont understand the fact taht supposedly if god is everywehre then why do you have to go to this church every sunday and listen to someguy that looks like dracula tell you wut you must belive in..... YOUR HUMANS!!!... belive in wut you wanna belive, personally i choose no religion.... spirituality is key
I dont hate the people, i just hate the religion, i dont understand the fact taht supposedly if god is everywehre then why do you have to go to this church every sunday and listen to someguy that looks like dracula tell you wut you must belive in..... YOUR HUMANS!!!... belive in wut you wanna belive, personally i choose no religion.... spirituality is key
But if you reject God and don't belive in him why would you even want to go "party with him"?
God is everywhere. The church is his 'house". You go to church to be closer with God and to have fellowship with other Christians.
QUOTE
So are you bothered with people using the now seemingly patented term "Christmas" instead of Winter Holidays because that's what I am feeling. It seems that while people want to spread the word and love of Christ, they also want the love of Christ to be exclusive. Meaning, only Christians are allowed to say Christmas... If that's the case, then blame the Pope for choosing Christmas to be on December 25th
Christians are not bothered because they don't want to share Jesus or anything... The idea is that people are taking a religious holiday and shoving the religious part out of the window. Then, using it as a secular holdiday and a reason to accept and accumulate mountains of physical possessions insted of just accepting Jesus.
I think that's the point, not that we want the holiday to ourselves.
QUOTE(picaso_smile @ Dec 14 2004, 6:01 PM)
How would there be Christmas presents before that if that if those presents were given on Christmas, starting the tradition of the Christmas gift.
Uh, no.
Why is it that you think gifts are given for Christmas purposes?
Why is that the world and its holidays must seemingly revolve around Christmas?
Do some research. You know what, I've done it for you, all you people need to do is just read this, okay? Scroll down to the section where it says "Why do we give gifts at this time of year?". It's THAT SIMPLE.
Sunday School doesn't teach you about the world, you need to really look out there on your own.
Christians originally did NOT approve of giving gifts, therefore, it is NOT a Christian tradition, but rather, it was ADOPTED from Pagans.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!
QUOTE
I think we should celebrate Christmas in September. But, then people would still celebrate Christmas on the 25 and call it Christmas................ Maybe December 25 should be called Presentmas? Or Giftmas??
Why don't you then? Who cares what's it's called. You people are the ones who don't want us calling Christmas, Christmas. We don't care either. Just QUIT HOGGING IN DECEMBER 25th saying that we don't have a right to hold celebration. That's RIDICULOUSLY DISCRIMINATING.
QUOTE
Christians are not bothered because they don't want to share Jesus or anything... The idea is that people are taking a religious holiday and shoving the religious part out of the window. Then, using it as a secular holdiday and a reason to accept and accumulate mountains of physical possessions insted of just accepting Jesus.
Those who taking the religious holiday and shoving the religious part out of the window ARE CHRISTIANS. PERIOD. Please do not say that it's the fault of Non-Christians that Christmas is what it is today because it isn't. Since BEFORE Christianity, Non-Christians already established a tradition of celebration on Dec. 25th, thus there is NO right or wrong way for us to celebrate it. It is CHRISTIANS who forget themselves and celebrate the day as they like.
QUOTE
I think that's the point, not that we want the holiday to ourselves.
No, I think the point is quite clear, or else I and others wouldn't come on as strongly as we are now.
QUOTE(uninspiredfae @ Dec 14 2004, 11:59 PM)
Uh, no.
Why is it that you think gifts are given for Christmas purposes?
Why is that the world and its holidays must seemingly revolve around Christmas?
Do some research. You know what, I've done it for you, all you people need to do is just read this, okay? Scroll down to the section where it says "Why do we give gifts at this time of year?". It's THAT SIMPLE.
Sunday School doesn't teach you about the world, you need to really look out there on your own.
Christians originally did NOT approve of giving gifts, therefore, it is NOT a Christian tradition, but rather, it was ADOPTED from Pagans.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!
Why don't you then? Who cares what's it's called. You people are the ones who don't want us calling Christmas, Christmas. We don't care either. Just QUIT HOGGING IN DECEMBER 25th saying that we don't have a right to hold celebration. That's RIDICULOUSLY DISCRIMINATING.
Those who taking the religious holiday and shoving the religious part out of the window ARE CHRISTIANS. PERIOD. Please do not say that it's the fault of Non-Christians that Christmas is what it is today because it isn't. Since BEFORE Christianity, Non-Christians already established a tradition of celebration on Dec. 25th, thus there is NO right or wrong way for us to celebrate it. It is CHRISTIANS who forget themselves and celebrate the day as they like.
No, I think the point is quite clear, or else I and others wouldn't come on as strongly as we are now.
Why is it that you think gifts are given for Christmas purposes?
Why is that the world and its holidays must seemingly revolve around Christmas?
Do some research. You know what, I've done it for you, all you people need to do is just read this, okay? Scroll down to the section where it says "Why do we give gifts at this time of year?". It's THAT SIMPLE.
Sunday School doesn't teach you about the world, you need to really look out there on your own.
Christians originally did NOT approve of giving gifts, therefore, it is NOT a Christian tradition, but rather, it was ADOPTED from Pagans.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!
Why don't you then? Who cares what's it's called. You people are the ones who don't want us calling Christmas, Christmas. We don't care either. Just QUIT HOGGING IN DECEMBER 25th saying that we don't have a right to hold celebration. That's RIDICULOUSLY DISCRIMINATING.
Those who taking the religious holiday and shoving the religious part out of the window ARE CHRISTIANS. PERIOD. Please do not say that it's the fault of Non-Christians that Christmas is what it is today because it isn't. Since BEFORE Christianity, Non-Christians already established a tradition of celebration on Dec. 25th, thus there is NO right or wrong way for us to celebrate it. It is CHRISTIANS who forget themselves and celebrate the day as they like.
No, I think the point is quite clear, or else I and others wouldn't come on as strongly as we are now.
Ummm.... first of all, you're giving gifts on Christmas. THat would make it Christmas gift. The occasion [I]is Christmas. The reason the world "seemingly revolves around Christams" is that it's been so commercialized. Retailers see it as a prime way or turning a higher profit. People get convinced they need to buy more and more presents.
It doesn't matter when gift giving was invented. Really it doesn't. I'm sure before the pagen there was someone who gave someone something in an act of goodwill. What matters is that they're CHRISTMAS gifts. You don't say, "Here's you're winter holiday gift"
Sunday school teaches you about your religion.............
The reason they didn't approve right away is that they thought the holiday should be about Jesus, not getting stuff. Well now look at the holiday... And it IS a Christian tradition. Why else have Christians been doing it for hundreds of years? If my family only started making cookies on Christmas anually 10 years ago, it's still a tradition.
No one is hogging it. No one is stopping you. All we're saying is that it seems wrong. And why don't athiests just celebrate their family and everything on the New Year? Surely that won't be much different if it has nothing to do with the religous significance of it. It seems like a good way to bring in the New Year... celebrate family and friends and exchanging gifts in preparation for the comming year.
How can Christians be the ones solely shoving the religous part out the window? Christian means you celebrate Christ. If you don't, you're not Christian.
Ok so other religions celebrated on Dec. 25? Are you now converted to Mithraism? The differenace is, their celebrating thier god, Mithris. They have thier holiday. Christians celebrate Christ. THat is thier holiday. You're celebrating getting stuff on a Christian holiday.
And lastly, how would you know what my point is?
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