Of course; consequences imposed by the government are what keep people from committing any illegal actions.

No, I choose not to. If someone really wanted to kill someone, you think they would really care about the punishments? How many serial killers do you know, how many murders do you hear about everyday? Laws are just there to make sure you certain what you want to do.


Well I brought up the killing of your parents to see your response, which is no, meaning you wouldn't kill your parents if the government told you to, which is good. But then, your very own government is funding wars, killing people, and most people don't seem to know about it.


Also, your last statement is kind of...well....obvious. Since prob 8 didn't pass, its kinda assumed that majority voted for, so there was no need for you to assert that statement. You might as well as just said "I am typing right now." Since this conversation seems a bit heated...


thats me and my ho sandy

awwww I want a cute little animal!!! <3

/spam, since this topic has taken an uninteresting turn

PAPERPLANE YOU HAVE ONCE AGAIN SPAMMED

but this topic won't get anymore interesting since in the end its going to to be the same arguement

I'm following/participating in similar debates on other forums, and the arguments do actually vary while staying largely relevant to the topic. Not that I have particularly high standards for our debate forum anymore, you're primarily arguing semantics now, and it's dull. As much as I disagree with everything dosomething888 has to say, at least she gives up something to argue.

Shrug, tbh I think prop 8 is just semantics, word choice. The entire argument isn't about equal rights. The government should just remove marriage and let everyone have civil unions. Then Christians keep marriage sacred among themselves and the homosexuals get "equality."

when the hell did i say the government has no power? my mere statement was that your idea of how the government is so right seems naive as f*ck. and why do you type to me like im a teacher or some shit. "i am beyond harmonize" wtf is this? reflects society? there are countries burning our flags cause they hate us so much, you think our society wants that?

I think it's funny how we're even voting on this. Legally, we [citizens voting] aren't allowed to amend the state constition by our votes at all. It has to pass through the votes of the state legislators without the votes of citizens.

you seem to misunderstand my definition of government power, Laws =/= all the power government has. i still don't understand why you won't get that point. have you ever heard of jeffrey dahmer? or anyother serial killer? you think they give a shit about laws? however, would i kill someone? NO, it depends on the person

i highly doubt that our society DOES not care that every other country mocks us, you said yourself that our "government is reflected by society" so by your definition, our society does not give a f*ck about other countries

i can't even understand what you two are fighting about anymore. don't you have the same stance on this anyway?

basically, she claims that my views of government goes on the lines of "government has no power." what im trying to say is that her faith in our government is too strong. I tried to give examples like under the table situations. For instance, she says government is a microcosm of our society. However, we are still torturing people at guantanamo boy, yet i highly doubt that our society would want that.

i dont want to read the board. i'll just answer the question/ prompt.

In my firm belief, marriage shouldn't be brought up in the first place. Many people who are against gay marriage justified their actions with religious reasons. I find religious reasons are so hypothetical and hypocritical. Although the bible states homosexual marriage is wrong, it shouldn't be qualify as a reason. Why? The bible states the 7 deadly sins. That’s not surprising. But guess what? Many people already have sins. You have people stealing stuff. You have children lying to each other. You have rude and mean people in your community. All of these violate the way of true Christian’s religion. Yet, people are against gay marriage when no one does anything for other things.

The question is why are you against gay marriage when you should be against yourself for not being a good Christian and breaking the “law” from bible?

I don't understand gay marriage issues spend the most money on this pointless campaign, when there are many things that we, us, as American, should worry about ourselves and economic issues. This isn’t the right time to talk about gay marriage, if you ask me. It should be after the economy is solved. All that money spends on the campaign is utterly useless and pointless at this moment which should had spend on better things.

Yup, I agree with Whinoa. ^ I'ma just answer the prompt.

I may be a little too young to be talking about this, BUT I do know a few things & I'd like to speak out for gay marriage. Correct me if I'm wrong;

First of all , most people that I know vote yes on prop 8 only because they're afraid that their children will be exposed to books and lessons about gays & lesbians. Wrong. No child can be forced against their will or their parents to be taught anything like this in school. Besides, not one word in Prop 8 mentions education. ++ I was reading the replies that everyone was posting. Something about fieldtrips to weddings? Ok, now that's just awkward. If you don't want your child to go to a wedding as a fieldtrip, then just don't sign their permission slip! Plus religion shouldn't be taught in public schools. Sooo yeah.

And about the bible stating that marriage is between a man and a woman? ...or something like that? Okay, there's this thing called seperation between church and state. Your religious beliefs shouldn't have anything to do with Prop 8.

And what irritates me the most is that California use to allow gay marriage, & yet they're banning it now. BS.

Grrr, but yeah. Regardless of how you feel about this, we shouldn't ban any rights from any person. Prop 8 mandates that one group of people would be treated differently from others, and that's just unfair. Don't you think?

What would be the purpose of going on a field trip to any kind of wedding?....

marriage is too legally involved these days to even be considered a religious thing anymore.

marriage is too legally involved these days to even be considered a religious thing anymore.

^ its mostly legal now.

My Opinion: Love is love; gay or straight. We shouldn't stop them.

i love dogs too, doesn't mean i can marry one

Why would you want to marry your dog?

i wasn't being literal, the thing is, once you open the door for fair rights to gays, you have to do it with everyone, including polygamy, 3 way marriages, etc. However, limiting to only straight couples is also not fair so this subject is just a big cycle of unequality

that's a slippery slope fallacy. it's not relevant to the question at hand... not really. but, as goes the dog thing... consent. consent. consent. duh. as goes the issue of polygamy: whatever, i don't care. nonetheless, like i said, each of those concerns are independent of the issue of gay marriage, any rebuttal of same-sex marriage should be phrased in direct association with same-sex couples & marriage (not dogs & mormons).

its not a slippery slope fallacy if the chain of events are likely, most of these points are what republicans against gay marriage are going to say

no. it's a slippery slope fallacy because it makes an unfounded leap from point A (the legalization of same-sex marriage) to point Q (the legalization of non-human/human marriage). you assume that the transitory points are all bound to occur, & are naturally occurring, given A. the reality of the matter is that A & Q are completely independent instances that are, in no real way, bound to a causal chain. Even if Q were to occur, the points between A & Q would be individually addressed & scrutinized, on their own merits. anyone who makes this argument isn't arguing against gay marriage, they're stating a disfavorable opinion of point Q. if you want to legitimize the argument, you would have to argue for each point between A & Q.

I'll play your game. Lets say gay marriage is legalized. Here come the mormons with their bikes, saying how they want their polygamy. They use the same argument as gays. Whats your response?

that's still not an argument against gay marriage.
not to mention, it doesn't necessitate that polygamist marriage would be allowed.

Why wouldn't it? Ill admit, there is no real argument against gay marriage. But i think it is in the best interest of this debate to incorporate future problems that are likely to happen if gay marriage were to be passed.

you're arguing that if A happens, P must. but you aren't explaining any of the points between A & P. i'm saying that even if A is passed, there are fourteen points between A & P that each require specific detail & attention. generally, i'm arguing that the transition between A & P is too drastic, removed, & involved, to claim point P as a legitimate reason for avoiding point A.

Scratch it, we won't get anywhere. Since we both can't foresee the future, its just assumptions now, whether or not this chain, independent or not, will happen.

Yes, and that's what makes it a slippery slope fallacy. (I know you're already established this, but I'm in a logic and critical thinking class that has been all about the fallacies, so just had to give my bit of input, regardless of redundancy.)

I think that marriage is religious practice. I don't give a hoot about gay people getting married, but they shouldn't call it marriage as it is offensive to many religious groups around the world. They can have all their rights, but they should call it something else. If it's about rights then give them their rights.

atheists shouldnt be married either

what kind of bullshit is that?

like it or not marriage has become a social arrangement, and to label it as a religious only thing at this point in history, idk mang.

It doesn't matter if atheists get married. As long as they're not gay. Marriage is between a man and a woman. I guess it really doesn't make sense though. Seeing as how they're both taking part in something that has religious context behind it.

Seriously, why not just stand by your partner the rest of your life. What is the real purpose of getting married? You can be just as committed with marriage as you can be without it. What significance does marraige hold when 50%+ of all marraige ends in divorce.

Marriage holds a significance when combined with people who believe in a religion because they both believe in the sacred bond that marriage offers (at least they're supposed to).



It's grounded in religious roots. Call it whatever you want. Homosexuals cannot be "married". It makes no sense. Marriage in the religious context is between a man and a woman. Religion cannot be changed. It wouldn't make sense if it were.

marriage holds legal benefits, duh. that's the whole problem. if it didn't, then what would be the point of marriage through the state in the first place? religious people can just stand by their partner their whole life too, and atheists and gay people. but they don't want to, because they want their legal bond with that person and the benefits that come along with it.

marriage in a legal sense, which is what the debate is over, is NOT religious. why on earth would a man and a woman have to go through the state to be united in god? that makes no sense either to me. if people wanna think they are united in god or whatever, then they should be going to a church for that. but the reality is i can go get my marriage license, as an atheist, and there's not going to be anything religious about it. i don't care about religious context, because if my goal was to avoid anything that ever historically had any religious context it would be a really tough life for me lol.



this just sounds like wishful thinking man. i mean even if it's supposed to be this way, you know it's not. and once again, why would god want you to go through government to get your sacred bond? that alone says something is wrong here in my opinion.

Like I said, give them the legal benefits and not the name. Religious people are the ones who are really fighting against gay marriage in the first place. They just don't want Gays to call it marriage because by their definition IT IS NOT MARRIAGE. It's a mockery to their belief. It's offensive to them.



Call it what you like. While I agree that many people in this day and age have taken marriage for granted. There are many Religious people who still believe this way (myself included). I will continue to believe this way, because it's the only reason to get married.

I don't believe God wanted people to go through the gov't to get the sacred bond. In fact, to be truly married I don't believe you have to go through any gov't process at all. You only need to go through the gov't process to receive the legal benefits of marriage. Again, I don't believe Christians and other religions oppose homosexual marriage because they want to infringe upon the rights of another. They oppose it because homosexuals are calling it marriage. Marriage has already been scared enough. Call it something else.

how is marriage soley religious? what about in other cultures?

Many traditions stem from religious concepts. For example, the Holiday Season which was XMas, which was Christmas, which was the celebration of the birth of Christ. Was changed as to be politically correct. Why cant' this be changed?

Our culture probably has some of the most tolerant views on homosexuality. In fact, many of the eastern countries kill homosexuals. What point are you trying to make.

not really part of yours.

im saying just because many traditions stem from religious concepts, thats not the same in other places and cultures. marriage is not a religious act, at least not always.

Not anymore.

Prop 8 should never have even been thought of.
Giving people rights then suddenly deciding to take them away is worse than not giving them the rights at all.

Marriage, legally, should be put as two people that are legally recognized as 'married' - not married in a Church, or in any other religious way. This is because the people helping Prop 8 pass believe that gay people will 'infiltrate' their religion, and this isn't the case. Gay people generally realize where they're not wanted, and they usually stay away from any situation that could cause conflict.
Just because gay marriage might be taught in school as an accepted way to love, doesn't mean children will automatically turn gay. It will just teach them to be more accepting of people's differences - something that I believe all religions want their followers to follow.
Saying that by allowing gay marriage, you're paving the way for human-animal marriages and polygamy,is stupid. You have to consider the fact that people involved in a gay marriage are consenting - neither the animal or the multiple husbands/wives are usually consenting. Besides, those issues need to be voted on depending on their own merits, and they don't really share the same merits as gay marriage.

&& For all you Christians who think being gay is a sin:
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to hetrosexuals. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love hetrosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision." Lynn Lavner

"War. Rape. Murder. Poverty. Equal Rights for Gays. Guess which one the Southern Baptist Convention is protesting?" The Value of Families

I'm actually annoyed at Obama. He said he promoted equal rights for everyone and yet, PROP 8 STILL PASSED.
Thank you people in Iowa who showed that the United States isn't made up of bigoted idiots.
There are many more things in this world that require more attention than gay rights. Let them have their rights and focus on the worse things in life. You're focusing too much time fighting something that won't affect any other people, yet you're completely ignoring other things that ARE going to affect people.


"Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that many Americans consider it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality." James Baldwin

I have to agree with you there, but just as homosexuality was proposed to be voted in. The people in our country have to option to propose to vote it out.



Definitions don't have rights. Marriage (from a religious point of view) is to be between a man and a woman. Keep calling it marriage and it will keep getting voted down. This has nothing to do with infiltration.



Marriage isn't taught in school



This statement just as stupid as the quote you posted by Lynn Lavner.
I agree, it's a bit extreme. Except for polygamy, that's a cultural thing. To someone somewhere I'm sure it holds merit. The matter of how much merit an individual matter holds is entirely a matter of opinion.



If you had ever read the bible it would be pretty clear that the Bible doesn't refer to homosexuality as a life style. It refers to homosexuality as an act. Lynn Lavner was being extremely ignorant when saying this, and you're being ignorant for quoting it. If I were you I wouldn't tell people about the Bible. You obviously know very little about it.

EDIT: You could also say that god admonishes heterosexuals more because he loves them more and expects better from them.



How can you protest Rape? How can you protest Murder? How can you protest Poverty? We as a people have no control over some idiot who decides to Rape or Murder. I don't think that protests will have any effect on who gets raped or murdered. Poverty will always exist.



PROP 8 passed because democracy ruled. Obama is not a dictator and cannot change the outcome of PROP 8. Homosexuals need to face facts. There are many many many religious people in this country. If they want the same rights as a married couple then they'll have to call their unions something other than marriage.



I don't know why you quoted this. I don't have feelings.

Cut through the bullshit and this is the best answer.

i didn't read any of this (only a few posts that brought up religion as a basis to their belief) because i'm not here to debate, but my only question is is who wrote the bible? MAN. yeah, it's said to be the word of god and in your religious beliefs, you're taught to know and trust that it is the word of god, but WHO is to say that it IS the word of god? who is to say that man, who wrote the bible, didn't add their own bias?

The Bible is said to be inspired by God. The words are written through man by God. They really didn't "write" any of it.

Agreed. Basically, whatever your views on gay marriage are, its a hot topic. So, the fact that Prop 8 was formed is not surprising. People voted it in and that should be the end of it. And if anyone can overturn it, even Obama, simply by pissing and moaning because they didnt get their way, means that we arent living in a democracy. You can say all you want about why its okay to be gay and I can say all I want about why its not okay to be gay, but when you get down to it, Prop 8 was voted in and shows the views of the majority of the people of California.

Have you ever heard of tyranny of the majority? Essentially, the majority opinion isn't always right, and can infringe of the rights of a minority.

^true true, but i personally believe Prop 8 was passed because america, at least california just isn't ready to accept gay marriage, within 5-10 years, it will eventually happen

Well, what the majority believes is right to some and wrong to others. So, either way, we do live in a democracy and the majority does rule. In view of Prop 8, I think the majority was right. And others think it was wrong. It doesnt change anything. And if you are implying that the majority was wrong, that is only your opinion.

Separation of church and state? Pssssh the U.S. was founded and built on Christian principles. You can try to be objective all you want but a man's religion strongly shapes his beliefs, morals, values and priorities which translates into policies and whatnot. Christians defend marriage as their own because that's where our social practice stemmed from, the holy union between a man and a woman; you can't blame them for trying to honor their values.

I don't see why so many people are surprised civil union passages don't pass in some states.. yes we are heading in a more liberal direction and we have quite a few cosmopolitan cities but what about the rest of the nation??? Even within those big cities, there are still strong Christian populations. I'm not saying that gay marriages are wrong (even though I should as I am a baby Christian.. ) but I'm tired of people painting such ugly irrational pictures of Christian people and their beliefs, often misrepresented by shallow, pretentious internat Christians who THINK they know their bible. Man is flawed so religion is flawed. If you don't understand their religion, how do you expect to really understand their political stance built on these beliefs? Bluuuurgh ramble ramble but I had to get it off my chest....