You don't agree that the basic premise (that "Movies/TV" and "Music" are unpopular) is false?

yes, i don't agree with that. the numbers do not support the claim. the previous entertainment forum seemed to be quite popular before we split it up into three subforums.

ok let me also bring something else to light here. immediately after we reorganized the forums last time... jusun told us he didnt agree with it. he didn't like it. we implored him to give it a shot as we'd gotten a lot of good feedback from the handful of you. so he very graciously gave us a shot.


when the results came back, they were not in our favor. the numbers don't support the "feedback" we've gotten. obviously something went wrong.

now jusun is asking us to give his idea a shot. we'll see where it takes us, and if the results don't show any improvement, then i guess we need to do more.

if you really think that the proposed change is bad... prove us wrong. a poll won't do you or us any justice here. only 40 or so members will actually partipate in the poll. there are 419,913 members here. let us make the change, and see what happens. if you guys dont like the change i'm sure that the numbers will let us know exactly that. but you can't know for sure unless we try it.

The numbers are misrepresentative of the actual content of "General Entertainment." The majority of topics within "General Entertainment" actually belong in other forums and subforums. This means that the statistics are misrepresentative of the actual popularity of both "General Entertainment" (for it is full of threads that do not belong in it) and all the others subforums and forums that would have more hits if the threads were appropriate distributed.

A simple analysis of the first three pages of "General Entertainment" (pg. 260-262) demonstrates this very fact:

Topics concerning:
Music - 23
Movies/TV - 38
Other - 35
General - 4

That's a rough number (from manual counting) on topics inside "General Entertainment." Most of them belong to subforums and forums that we aren't even discussing here (humor, books, sandbox, pictures, etc), but, hardly any of them at all belong in what is now considered "General Entertainment." Actually, "Movies/TV" and "Music" are very predominant inside most of the "General Entertainment" subforum (that is, if you actually look at the threads).

Remember? Because when we separated the threads there was so much junk that we couldn't, easily, get it all into the right places? All the lost and forgetten threads are still stuck in "General Entertainment" and that is exactly why it is such a popular forum. If you were to actually distribute the threads properly, you would find that while "General Entertainment" would be found as being exceedingly less popular, all sorts of other subforums would suddenly seem more popular (including "Movies/TV" and "Music").

Your premise is false.



THE NUMBERS ARE WRONG (see above).

Everything has improved - the quality of discussion has increased, people seem happier with separation, we're not losing threads to an influx of needless traffic. The feeback was what you should have been paying attention to in the first place, despite the numbers. A happier community is more valuable than a few more hits.

We don't need to give "his idea" a shot. We know where it will take us. Before we separated the threads they were combined. We separated them for a good reason, and those reasons still are relevant. Listen to reason here... review the basis of the numbers, realize that quality is a greater value than quantity, and realize that communal improvement can not be measured in topic views!

Alright like I said, your voice has been heard. Your feedback will be taken into account. We (general 'we') aren't making any immediate changes yet. This subject will be revisited over and over again before a final decision is made. I think everyone gets your point and this really doesn't need to go on for another 5 pages. I will PERSONALLY make sure that the input (which I think is valuable) will be considered during the deliberation of this topic. Maybe my status doesnt hold quite as much weight as it used to but I will harass Jusun and the mods quite deliberately and repeatedly until they think about all angles of this discussion. Does that put your mind at ease, even if it's just a little?

Yes.

Thank you, honestly. It's just that, I was a strong proponent for the separation of forums into subforums. And, truly, I feel that they have really benefited the community. I do not, in any way, want to see such an improvement reversed (especially because of a few misunderstandings). I think if we give the community enough time, you will be able to not just consider my own voice, but the voices of many different people here on CreateBlog.

I don't mean any sort of serious disrespect or "war." I like you Trish; I think you're a very valuable asset to this community. I am certainly pleased by your clear-headedness here. I understand that no rash decisions will be made. This pleases me and demonstrates that we both have an honest care for this community and its members.

But, as always, we will fight for what we care about in our own ways... so, disagreement is inevitable. But, that doesn't mean disagreement has to be painted red or any bullshit. So, for now: Whoo hoo.

I appreciate that this discussion has ended on a civil note, so I definitely don't intend to argue here, but I must say I agree with Nate. I have not visited the "general entertainment" forum at all since it was separated from music and movies/tv, because the topics that are left there are of no interest to me when I know I like music and movies/tv. I am of course only one person, but I do think the separation of those particular forums was for the better, as the purposeful topics don't get buried by celeb gossip. Now, I'm sure the majority much prefers celeb gossip. That makes me inclined to think that, numbers aside, the subforums are very much doing their jobs, because it keeps things apart by interest. This uninvested minority is very unlikely to start making meaningful posts on music and tv/movies if you recombine them with everything else, whereas what we have going is just fine. I hope I'm making sense, because I just woke up, but while I don't oppose reorganization in general, on this particular matter I don't think the decision needs to be based on numbers. Basically, maybe it's better to separate the majority in this case. The other two forums may no be as popular, but that's fine because people are welcome to join in anyway. They're certainly not any harder to access.


(The first time I posted, it hadn't occurred to me that "general entertainment" would be lumped with music/movies/tv.)

Nate, I do very much remember you being pleased with the way the last forum reorganization went, and I also remember you making somewhat of a compromise in going with debate as a top-level forum instead of a subforum (the argument that you didn't want it more visible). That's really what this is about in a way - making a forum more visible doesn't make it more active, as we've seen with moving Debate to the index page. Instead, what Jusun wants to do is move the topics that have shown statistically to be much more popular to the front page to make them more easily accessible. The rest end up being organized into subforums, yes, but there are less clicks needed to get to them.

The reason I say that is not because I think you can't gather that out of the first couple of pages of this thread, because I know you're perfectly capable of doing that. It's really more for my own good, because I was essentially against changing the layout of the forums as well at first, but am open to change if it makes the forums more accessible.

However, I don't think we should do anything that a large amount of people are unhappy with. While it's true that we can't ONLY cater to those few members here who are actively vocal about site concerns (as they make up a very small portion of the actual users of this site), we also can't ignore them completely.

I am going to admit right now that I've only read the first two pages of this thread thoroughly. I will give all your posts a fair read, Nate, and respond accordingly when I'm at home and not at school.

I think my reasoning have been more or less covered, so if it's ok, I won't type them out and give everyone something to read, but I would very much prefer not to see this change.

edit/ hm, nvm

i suppose i don't particularly care either way because i use the view new posts button and just look at all active topics, so it doesn't change much for me.

i don't see how this will help anything or bring in new members, i just don't understand that. then again i've never been frustrated navigating my way around. it just seems like the content and attitude (which i don't believe our community has a good one) is what would keep people coming back, not the fact they have to click an extra time.

i feel like we're trying to find an easy fix for a really complex and not easy problem of keeping new members.

it's worth a try though i guess. even though i think i agree more with nate, maybe trish's solution of letting it play out and looking at the numbers is the way to go.

Absolutely.

No, that wasn't exactly the point. Perhaps you should look at the stats of how many of those views were guests who weren't logged in. If you think about it, there can be instances where there are at least 50 guests reading a topic that is hot. What I'm saying is is the majority of the people that actually post are going to be the ones to speak out. I have yet to really see anyone say "yeah, it needs change" from one of the more well rounded posters.

To be frank, I'm not saying DON'T do it, I just don't understand why. Make it the way it was for years and let's all be friends.

Ok, a lot to cover. This isn't going to be in the exact order of when responses came in, but a lot was said and a great deal of thought has gone into this from a number of individuals.

Jusun knows how I reacted regarding the Debate forum. I argued the quality of quantity idea. Because it could fit in "academia" rather than the vague "Interests", I felt it to be a compromise. Not the best compromise mind you, but it's something.

I agree with Nate in that I don't believe the statistics are true and complete representation. Not only are there topics in that forum that have never been moved, there are moved topics as well. I'm curious about the script you created, Jusun. Are those the results of everything from the beginning of time, or just hits from the time of the most recent reorg on. I apologize if you have already answered this elsewhere. For some reason my mind is blank on it.
Oh and-
I would very much like to see the results of this as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue or take sides but in complete honesty, I like the the Movies/TV and Music forums as main forums. Everything else, EVERYTHING else I agree with as far as the structure goes. I'm just asking that perhaps we can look at all sides, not just what the numbers are saying but what some of us here are saying. I know that it seems like we're in the minority, and right now perhaps we are.

Thing is, in the middle of this you have had a somewhat hostile community towards newer members. I'm sorry to say that guys, but sometimes the things people say here are just wretched, unprovoked and downright mean spirited disguised as humor. I'm not saying that we should all get in a circle and sing kumbaya by the campfire together. We could at least show some respect though, especially to new members. I think that, more than anything else, more than another reorg or reassembling a disorg (lol) will help get and retain membership. Just saying, we should look at other potential causes for the lack of membership and hits.

Having said that, are two additional main forums (Movies/TV, Music) really going to wreck havoc upon the statistics? Can't we try to compromise on this? Have everything go as listed but just those three?

hey guys,

thanks for all your feedback. i took some time today to make a very comprehensive statistics tool that compares pre-reorganization vs post-reorg data.

http://createblog.com/forums/stats.php

if you study the change (relative change in rank after re-organizing), its pretty evident that once a forum isnt a top level forum, it loses a lot of activity (case point: boys locker lost ground 11 positions after the re-org, from #6th most viewed to #17th).

also, i should note that music + movies/tv are actually doing quite well after the re-org, nosex might have been right on this one (although i think his reasoning was flawed as it was based on topics / posts that were psoted BEFORE the re-org when entertainment was still a top level forum). but it turns out that both music and movies/tv are in the top 8. if we separate the proposed combined entertainment into two top level forums (music + movies /tv), i think both of those forums will be popular enough to hold their ground. on the other hand, general entertainment suffered a lot and fell down 14 forums.

i havent eaten all day so im going to go and eat but based on what i see right now heres the new proposal:

introduction
the lounge
-vip lounge
pictures
music
tv / movies
relationships
academia
-books
-debate
-school
-news
recreation (someone wanna come up with a better name?)
-anime
-humor
-sandbox
-sports
interests
-art
-writing
-food
-technology
lifestyle
-boys locker
-girls locker
-health
-fashion


please study the stats carefully before you reply. it took me sometime to aggregrate those and it should be interesting to hear your intrepretation.

as a reminder, subdomains will be linked in teh forum index after the reorg. i wonder if this will positively affect the previously evident decline in activity once a top level forum is moved elsewhere.

Out of interest, if your new system didn't 'improve' your statisics, would you advvocate reorganizing the forums again, back to the way they were? Because at some point we will have to stick with something, and I don't really, truly, see how your new orgnization will make more than the most superficial of changes.

What he's doing here is putting the forums that used to be more popular before the last re-org out as top level forums so that they're more visible from the forum index. So I do see how that would help improve things.

Thank you, Jusun. Those statistics look more realistic to me. I appreciate the time and effort it took for you to get all that together and present it the way you have.

I see you've done completely away with sort of a general entertainment type forum. While I see how having something like that would be convenient, it certainly doesn't require its own forum and the fact that it fell down so many points (lol what is this, a forum election?) shows a lot. We can find ways to make the topics that would otherwise go in a general entertainment forum fit elsewhere.

James, I do not believe things will change after this reorg. At least not for a long time. Changes do happen though, it's part of the game, but this looks like something plausible, a sort of a hybrid of what it was before the latest reorg and what we currently have today.

lol i didnt realize the general entertainment forum was gone. i don't envy you guys, it's going to take a long ass time to move all those threads.

Whatever floats your boat. I mean you are the creator of this site.

This doesn't affect me because I, like JC, just used the View New Posts button all the time anyways. I rarely go into subforums.

Kahlúa and espresso, my friend. Kahlúa and espresso. hehe

We'll have a party. ;)

oh no, as said before, my main goal for the reoganization isn't to increase activity... im working on other stuff that will help take care of that. im using the stats to help identify the more active forums so that they can be placed appropriately for everyone's (or the majority's) convenience.

and i do hope the new organization will stick for sometime. i still do think in terms of organization and consistency, it is much better than what we have now.



oh no problem. i just caught your previous post, and unfortunately its impossible to determine how many page views were made by guests. yea i think as for ht general entertainment, most should fit under music or movies/tv, and as for the rest, we can dump it in the lounge (or where ever fits best).

i still think fashion is an interest, not a lifestyle. i mean, if food's an interest, fashion should be an interest too, am i right or am i right?

if fashion's a lifestyle, food should also be a lifestyle.

but that's just my opinion.

lifestyle

the habits, attitudes, tastes, moral standards, economic level, etc., that together constitute the mode of living of an individual or group.

so yeah micron is right. fashion seems to fit more into this. sorry.

It's debatable, but I think Fashion categorically fits better in Interests. Logically speaking, I've never seen it fit into "lifestyle." It's not what I think when I think fashion.

hmm i agree it is debatable. but with the new organization, we're going to have subforums linked right under the forum index, so that should make it less confusing. books, anime, sports can all be interests, but then we have a forum catagory with too many subforums.

what do you think of this? (im just putting it out there for comparison purposes). lifestlye is removed, lockers are top level, and health and fashion is under interest. we'll have 11 (one more) top level forums, which i think is reasonable.

introduction
the lounge
-vip lounge
pictures
music
tv / movies
relationships
boys locker
girls locker
academia
-books
-debate
-school
-news
interests
-art
-health
-fashion
-food
-technology
-writing
recreation (someone wanna come up with a better name?)
-anime
-humor
-sandbox
-sports

If that's the case, then food and health should also be in lifestyle.


NVM, just saw Micron's post.

yay!

so yes to lifestyle or no? id like to get this done and over with by the end of today.

why should you ask us? we're just the minority right?

like i said jusun. it's your choice. you're the creator. do whatever you feels fit.

can someone explain to me why vip should be a subforum?

I think you should put back lifestyle, but with only the relationships, girl/boy locker subforums under it.

And I think everything under Academia could work in Interests.

^ No, I miss the Relationships and Locker Rooms being on the main page.

haha, i miss the days when it was just

lounge
entertainment
relationships
boy
girl

... that was it, right?

I think it fits better being in the lounge. I mean its like a unmoderated lounge for the OM's. Its not like its really that active of a forum either that it needs to be on the front page.

good luck and have fun to all mods who have to move all of the topics.

.deleteme.

ah, i apologize if i came a bit too strong in the beginning. i value what you guys think too, i do. i was just afraid the proposal would have many complaints, so i came off a bit forceful to compensate.

i asked because although ideally id prefer the latter proposal(where lockerooms are back as top level forums, im not too sure how you guys would find it (considering we'll have one more top level forum from the previous proposal, and several more if compared to the current organization).



i dont think it warrants its own top level forum, considering there's so few who are official members compared to the rest. but then again, its usually the official members that are most active. ...im not too sure about this one. i think in the beginning i wanted to place this as a subforum because ideally, its best to include the entire community rather than a small subset. by being its own top level forum, i worry that many official members will bypass the lounge and exclusively post here. so if we make this a subforum under the lounge, they are atleast forced to look at the topics in the lounge and hopefully be more inclined to participate.



relationships has to be a top level forum. please refer to the stats, it has too much activity to be a subforum (which means youll need to navigate several pages just to get there... cumbersome)



yes, me too. =)

I don't think there's any doubt at this point that that would be an issue.

It's been stated enough times that the VIP Lounge doesn't get much attention, but yet we like it more as its own forum. It's definitely not going to take away from the Lounge in the least bit, as it hasn't before. The fact is, less than 50 people can see it, so why does it matter much if it's visible on the front page? We're accustomed to having it there and haven't really taken a liking to it being in the Lounge the last 2 times it was put there. If anything, it became less noticed when it was actually part of the Lounge than when it was on the top level. So, if that's the case, where exactly is the perk in it? I agree that it's not exactly active, but being on the main list is where we like it.

Please?

^ ok. as long as you guys dont mind have 12 / 13 forums as top level forums under community center.

Personally I think that sounds excessive, but just so long as we don't have a catchall entertainment forum again, I don't care all that much about the rest of it.

That does seem excessive, but whatever works.

ok here we go.

Bwah, its changed. I don't mind, it'll just take some getting used to again.

=[

Everything's so long.

Lounge
Entertainment --> Movies, music
Interests --> everything else
Relationships
Girls locker
Boys locker.

dammit.

I thought you like long things.

true that, but yknow, every girl(or boy) has her(or his) limits.

the length of the forums is lethal.

youre right, i thnk everything is really long. im going to combine interest + rec. and put vip forum as a subforum and see how it looks like.

Are you planning on keeping the links to the subforums on the top page, because they just make it look even more cluttered, IMO.