"Oh, people f**king despise atheists. I've gotten a lot of guff in my life for all sorts of absurd things (being a rapist, a drug dealer, a devil worshiper, etc. etc.)"

i remember when i "came out" in 6th grade during lunch and everyone swarmed around me like i had a disease and said, "what??? you don't believe in god? wtf? how do you?... [more questions]"
fast forward like 7 years and 90% of them don't believe anymore or if they do they never go to church like they once proclaimed.

I'm not trying. I'm sure that there are people who are Christians and like you. I never said that there weren't I didn't even imply that there weren't. The only thing I am trying to get across is:

You go out of your way to make religious people look dumb here on cB. What makes me think you don't do this in real life. I'm sure there are people who hate you because you're an atheist, but there are probably more who hate you because of the way you carry yourself. Don't play the charity case. It's not that hard being an atheist. It's not your atheism that bothers people; it's your attitude. I only say this based upon your actions here on cB.

I don't know you in real life, but you sound like a pussy. Talking abotu how "difficult" it is to be an atheist. You make it sound like you're being pressured into Christianity because you face so many hardships as an atheist. Let me tell you, you're not alone. Even as a Christian I get ripped up by the people in my own church. Turns out, I'm not as "religious" as they expect me to be. I'm sure we share some of the same issues with Christians. I haven't been called a rapist, but have been told I'm going to hell several times. While those things may "hurt"; I don't bitch about it. It's actually not that difficult to suck it up and move on. It's not my place to judge them. God will do that for me, and the God that they believe in will judge them for what they've done to you.



They were young and immature Jeanna. They were probably just repeating what their parents told them.

Sorry for the late response, I don't come here often anymore.

(lol at how pissed some people are getting in this topic)



Do you think you might be interpreting the argument wrong?

If all temporal things that move must first be moved by something else, this requires that must be something be something that came first that wasn't, something that exists OUTSIDE of the temporal universe, to which the first statement does not apply. This is what is called God (or a god if you prefer, since it doesn't necessarily prove the Christian God).

I believe that is what Aquinas was trying to say and I believe that he actually addressed this in his original writings, so I disagree that it is self defeating.

Maybe the reason you get asked this question so often is the fact that you feel it necessary to bring attention to yourself to people who don't care to begin with. It's incredibly annoying when these christian wackos come up to me trying to cleanse my sinful soul, but it's much much more annoying when an Atheist dickhead wants it known he is an atheist just so he can stand out. Dude, no one gives a fucking shit, if they did, they'd fucking ask you.

So, my question to the atheist is "Why do you think you are so fucking important that you think people actually care about your one-sided opinions?"

Could someone please acknowledge us Agnostics?

Anyway, I'm going to respond as an Atheist. I don't really care if people don't consider my views as important, what the hell, they might not be important. That isn't the matter. What f**king bothers me is when Christians preach and argue just for the sake of wanting to change my opinion.

Most of the time, Christians start these debates.

I'm replying to this post even though Im not 100% that it was in response to my post. I'm not saying Atheist opinion's aren't important, I'm an atheist and I find my opinions important. What I dont like is when an atheist wants it known they're an atheist. Same with christians, your religious beliefs arent important to anyone but you so shut the f**k up. Why would I go up to someone and say "I'm an atheist, lets pointlessly argue about something that's not even a debate so that I can think Im smarter than you." A debate goes somewhere, it has an ending. An argument can go on forever without either side making any headway. That's all religious "debates" are, arguments.

well obviously people are interested if this thread has responses. he isn't going up to people and saying "im atheist, let's fight". it's an online forum, loosen up.

He made this topic in response to Podo's. Did you see that thread?

Yeah, but honestly... atheism. There's not much to ask. Christianity is a religion. There are hundreds of questions you can ask about a religion. It's a learning experience. Atheism is simple, you don't believe in a god. How much more do you need to understand.

Also, I agree with Jeremy in the sense that it doesn't make sense for an atheist to preach about not having a religion. But sense this topic is in response to Podo's topic (which I have taken charge of) I can't speak to poorly about it.

The thing I don't like this topic is that it seems to have become a charity case topic for one of the meanest/bitchiest/spiteful athiests I have ever known. It's pretty clear (to me) that it's not his atheism that's the problem.

Jeremy, how hard is it for you to be an atheist? I sure as hell don't give you a hard time with it. I did give you a hard time when I immature and only believed what my parents told me, but that was the past. Now that you have pretty much cleared the high-school stage and people are (for the most part) thinking on their own, how hard is it for you to be an atheist?

1. I don't think being an atheist is "hard."
2. If I were afraid of discrimination why would I be so vocal about my atheism? (you people can't have your cake and eat it too)
3. Some people feel passionate about their atheism, and some people feel passionate about their theism - I encourage both parties to speak about them as such. They're important, interesting, and effecting philosophies and ideas. A dialogue is very useful.
4. My character and personality is not what America has been polled on. It's true; atheists are the most hated minority in the U.S. Read the statistics I posted.
5. How about we stop talking about my character as it is irrelevant to the issues at hand here? Unless we're desperately interested in me as opposed to more philosophically poignant ideas? Someone said something about high school and immaturity?
6. Apparently atheism is a point of interest to some people here - if you don't feel like engaging in the discussion, maybe you shouldn't?
7. You don't have to have a clearly defined "winner" in order to have a debate. Such a condition just isn't a requirement. In fact, I would argue the most interesting debates are of such a variety - without deductive end.
8. Yeah, you don't like me, we get it. So, if no one is supposed to care about my "one-sided opinions" why do you assume I'll care about yours? This is an online forum - it's an open discussion. People can freely engage or not, you don't have to be anyone's parent.

Jeesh.

1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Agreed
4. Agreed, the only reason I brought it up was because I thought it related to why you were personally treated poorly as an atheist. If you were referring to the statistics then I was wrong and I apologize.
5. Agreed, I said something abotu high school and it was a personal comment to Jeremy. In high school people aren't as open minded as they should be. I gave Jeremy a hard time about his atheism in high school.
6. Agreed
7. Agreed
8. Agreed

But I am not held up to any standards though, so if I feel like killing off a human race because it is "beneficial" to the human population, would that be alright?

^i don't get ur point there

^ it wasn't really a point. It was more like a question to Mistfits.

right, but i think it's safe to say that she is going to say no it's not right to kill off a human race because u feel like it. so then after she says it's not right to kill off a human race, what are u pointing out?


and why are u not held up to any standards?

Well, would you say that murder is wrong?

edit: Athiest are not held up to any standards because they believe the world came into exsistences on accident and beyond the grave there is nothing. So morals and beliefs are relative. Essentially, whatever you say/think/do is right for you.

for the most part, yes


edit:
are u saying atheists don't have to follow the law?

Question:

If I were an athiest also, and I thought that killing you would be beneficial to human society because it is "helping" the evolutionary process (survival of the fittest, right?) than it would be alright essentially, right?

no. why would i ever agree that u killing me is alright?

u murdering people just because u feel like it is not the evolutionary process

what the f**k? are you saying atheists don't have morals, values or guilt? you think they can go around killing people and not feel anything?
funny thing is i have more morals than my very veryyy religious friends. i mean i'm not saying it's the same for everyone but my friend said she would basically go against her religion just to get the stupid crush she has liked for years to pay attention to her.
oh and i mean, people who have religion neverrr kill anyone. they are angels.

JC haha. No I'm not saying that,, okay let's make it someone else then, I was just using you as an example.

To the evolutionary thing, in survival of the fittest, isn't it basically stating that once one species evolves from another, it becomes better (apes - humans) and has to ultimately kill it off. If I am "fitter" than someone else and I think that in the sense that it is bettering our world and helping the world rid "the outdated species," that would be okay in a sense right?

But who is there to say that I am wrong if I think that killing someone is alright?

JENNA: No, I am not saying anything of that sort. I apologize from not clarifying. I am just saying, what is right for one pperson may not be right for another. So if killing people is right for me, thats okay, right?

that seems to me to be what she's saying
so hopefully she'll hurry up and get to the point she's attempting to make so we can't find out if this is what she's saying or not


edit:
why would u think u are fitter than someone else? and why would ur personal opinion on that be grounds to murder someone? how would killing me help ur survival at all? once again, do u not think atheists have to follow the law?

this is 2007, i dont believe it has a relevance today..
and im sure back then they did kill each other because they feared they would go extinct.

who says it is OK to kill someone?? do you know how evolution works?

ok, you're going in a whole other boat with this killing thing. you'll have to look into psychology and not religion.

No, this is not what I am saying at all.

But if one thing is right for me, and it makes me feel good, isn't it okay for me to do?

If one thing is right for you, and it makes you feel good, isn't it okay for you to do?

No, I'm not stating that athiests are not bound to the law, we all are of course. I was simply using an example. Would it be better if i said "stealing something." And in the fitter thing, again it was an example, like lets say......

The neanderthals killed the species that pre-dated them. They were really doing the world good from eliminating an inferior species right?

you know, you might think by atheists not having a book to guide their life by that they have no common sense, that makes sense. but in reality, it doesn't work that way and it's not a black and white case.
atheists are evil!

"During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious."

if you can tell, i have no idea what you're talking about. i like staying in the present.

Granted that U.S. Prisons are filled to the brim with non-violent, victimless "offenders", it is still interesting that only 0.2% of the U.S. prison population is atheist.

Judeo-Christian Total 62,594 (83.761%)
Atheist Total 156 (0.2%)

Number of Judeo-Christians in the U.S. = 159,030,000 + 2,831,000 = 161,861,000
Number of Atheist/Agnostics in the U.S. = 1,893,000

U.S. Population: Ratio % = 0.01% - Decimal Ratio = 0.0001 - Fraction = 1/10,000
Prison Population: Ratio % = .002% - Decimal Ratio = 0.00002 - Fraction = 1/50,000

1 Atheist in the U.S. for every 10,000 Judeo-Christians
1 Atheist in Prison for every 50,000 Judeo-Christians
---------------------------- --------

Catholic 29267 (39.164%)

Protestant 26162 (35.008%)

Muslim 5435 (7.273%)

Nation 1734 (2.320%)

Jewish 1325 (1.773%)

Church of Christ 1303 (1.744%)

Buddhist 882 (1.180%)

Jehovah Witness 665 (0.890%)

Orthodox 375 (0.502%)

Mormon 298 (0.399%)

Scientology 190 (0.254%)

Atheist 156 (0.209%)

Hindu 119 (0.159%)

^
Again no. I am saying that since we have no Creator, there are no absolutes, correct?

What is right for me is right for me right?

Ect,, for you.

You may have the principles in your life that you follow like, don't steal, cheat, or kill and be nice, and those are the standards you follow, but that may not be the case for me.

I may have the principles in my life that I follow like, I steal and cheat and am mean to everyone, but I think that you shouldn't murder (just an example).

The actual question: What "law" say what is right and wrong and how do you decide? Simply; wouldn't it be okay to steal, cheat, lie, whatever as long as you live to your morals

(In no way am I trying to say that atheists don't have morals, I am simply asking where you get yours from and how you know they are right)

Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't intend to do so. Same for clarifying.

Anyways, I can't stay. The bolded is the ultimate question I am trying to ask.

well society and environment plays a large part. i got mine from my dad, i guess? he isn't religious either. well, the laws i pertain to are the ones by the government lol, and not a bible.

but i see your point.

this is my post from another thread, we seem to have differing beliefs on morals




the bold part is what applies. i don't think morals depend on god, so i think these basic morals apply to everyone. i think is rape is wrong, whether or not u happen to like to rape people.

what i enjoy is when people go into drugs and stuff then saying it is defended in the bible like saying, "noo jesus drank red wine! it's not a sin to drink!" or "jesus put opium on the earth and pot, it's ok"

idk but drugs are another story all together i think.

You could have just asked that in the first place instead of turning this into a debate on Anarchism.

I would consider myself to be a utilitarian for the most part; essentially, the best action is the one that creates the most beneficial results to the most amount of people. I probably don't give a shit what you do as long it isn't particularly harmful to others. I generally try to treat people with the same amount of respect I would want from them. I guess you're right; no part of that is absolute. I'm not going to pretend like I have an answer to every situation you can think of or that I can always give an answer that fits within those broad guidelines.

I couldn't possibly name any single source (composing a list of sources would be asking too much as well) where I got these ideas from. On the other hand, I can tell you with the utmost certainty that twelve years of church didn't teach me anything close to that.

I hope that answers your question.

seriously, instead of running around in a circle with examples that make no sense whatsoever

^
Well I thought that you'd understand my first statement, obviously; no.

JC- Yes, it kind of pertains to what I was saying. I wasn't stating that God makes right and wrong, I was just asking where you get your morals from. Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But isn't that then making "guidelines" of what is right and wrong? I thought nothing was absolute, isn't that what evolution states since we have nothing to put these laws into place?


Choices are relative right?

My earlier question was and I'll try to state it the best possible;

Since we don't have morals that we ABSOLUTELY have to obide by (right? We are able to pick and choose), then would you consider lying, stealing, cheating, etc. to be alright? Remember; who decides what is right or wrong? If I think the government is wrong, I could basically do whatever I want, right? (This does not mean I am not aware that I will suffer consequences, but if I think if it is in the name of what I think is right, wouldn't it be okay for me to steal money, etc?)

yes, i guess. since atheists don't really have a BOOK to guide their lives like religious people do, you could say that.
idk about the government question but i all comes back down to guilt, i believe.

the only thing my atheism asserts is that i don't believe in god. my atheism says nothing about my morals or where i get them. i don't get why are u assuming that since i'm atheist then i think this and that and don't believe in this and that. u've never asked me if i think morals are absolute or relative, u've just assumed that based on the fact that i'm an atheist, which makes no sense. also u claim i believe this because it's what evolution says. again, do u not see that u are ASSUMING these things? the fact that im an atheist, says nothing about my belief in evolution. the ONLY thing my atheism tells u is that i don't believe in a god. i don't even understand how u want me to answer this, because ur entire argument is based on assumptions that u've made.


are ur morals absolute?
give me some examples of ur absolute morals

I have been meaning to say what you're saying for quite some time, but I haven't been able to find the correct wording for the argument.

I'd say that we are all relative, in a manner of speaking. Since you believe there is no god, you choose to follow another set of morals and standards. As goes with each of us. But, considering we as individuals are apart of a greater whole, we follow a certain set of rules. Society would not exist if we lived one hundred percent as individuals.

I really think that's what it comes down to. Society. We all have our cultures, and to each culture, certain things are deemed right and wrong. And I also think that's where the conflict comes into play. Eachothers morals and bounderies.

Okay, I really don't know what I'm talking about anymore. But, that's how I see it.

Most of the main morals in the Bible are fairly basic. I can't disagree with them. the majority of the rules in the Bible are there to help you. Just look at the ten commandments:

1. Don't put anything before God.
2. Don't worship any image.
3. Don't belittle the name of God.
4. Set one day aside for rest.
5. Live a life that honors your parents.
6. Don't murder people.
7. Don't have sex with someone if you're married.
8. Don't steal someones stuff.
9. Don't spread lies that harm people.
10. Don't get jealous of the things that others own.

What are the biggest morals that you guys have a problem with? The homosexual thing? The Bible doesn't clearly condemn a "loving" homosexual relationship. People just interpret the Bible that way. The Bible usually talks about homosexuality when it's referring to acts of rape or derogatory sexual acts. Personally, I don't know for sure how God will judge homosexuality. I just stay away from the act. I'm not a homosexual so it's not difficult, but if people so easily interpret it that way then I don't want to bother with it.

I do believe that there is an absolute right and wrong decision in every case. I believe that in every decision there is only one correct choice. We are only left to try our best in everything we do.

Sorry it took so long to reply to this, havent been on in a while. I'd say for me, it's pretty easy to be an atheist. It's not like I organize picnics in the park or set up atheist social functions, I just go about my life without even really thinking about the subject until it comes up at some point. I've never been one for obstinance, I usually just let the cards fall as they may and in doing so I've become one of the most mellow, laid back people I know, which occasionally bites me in the ass. I live a fairly worry-free life for the most part though.
I don't bother myself with questions of faith, if I had any I wouldnt have to question it. As far as faith establishing morals, that can be true to an extent. I grew up in a semi-religious family. My mother, like myself, is fairly laid back and stopped going to church when it became an inconvenience for her. My extended family is very involved with their religion; my uncle has helped build and fund churches in New York and Florida. I have the morals and convictions I have because of the fact that I grew up in a religious environment. As many children do, I've adopted my parent's way of thinking when it comes to religion, politics, and manners. Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm one of the most polite people you will ever meet, at times, so in that regard my mother didnt do too bad a job.
Religion is based around conviction; if you have it, you believe, if you don't, chances are you will lose your faith. Which is fine, every man's journey is their own. Atheism is much easier than religion, but it gives you the opportunity to question what religions already have their own answers to.

I thought it was an "educated guess" to say that since you are and athiest and therefore there is no god, I don't understand where you get right and wrong from.

edit: anyways to fully answer your question.
Yes, I believe in absolutes.
I believe there is a God, made the earth in 6 literal days, rested on the 7th to observe and wonder at His creation.

Basically what Uronacid has said (sorry I forgot your name).
Don't cheat, lie, murder, steal, etc.

Thank you Jeremy and Jeanna, it cleared up some of my quesiton.



Yes! That is why I had to go in a "circle" as some have said.

I also have another question, but that'll have to wait. Sorry, I have a whole lot of things to do.

so are ur morals absolute or not? if so, give me an example of some


oh ok, u edited.
well i don't know, i suppose my morals are relative, because they depend on the situation. i think murdering for the fun of it is wrong, but if someone was to murder someone like hitler, i don't think that's wrong. i think stealing is wrong, if someone steals because their kid hasn't eaten in three days, well...that's a different story to me. so i dont know


edit again:
yea, basically the post below mine

Anyone can "basically do whatever" one "wants." This is despite the fact that one is religious or not - several of us have already demonstrated this fact by presenting to you the disproportional level of religiosity and irreligiosity within our prison system. Essentially, we all do whatever we want. I would argue that most men and women are not compelled by their religious sentiments anymore than they are compelled by duty in any other field. We do, generally, what we believe, either subconsciously or consciously, will be most pragmatic for ourselves - we attempt to accomplish our goals. With happiness as a rather popular goal it becomes quite easy to see where our moral sentiments, feelings, and convictions most fundamentally arise from. We do what is "right" in order to secure ourselves, protect ourselves, and accomplish our goals. Further, we could argue that things such as the "moral conscience" arises from the evolutionary process. We already know that assimilation is quite a universal human and animalistic characteristic, but beyond that - guilt and the conscience would be useful in maintaining civility. With these traits men would be less likely to quarrel and more likely to work together in order to increase longevity and progress their species.

You see, morality is something which has been analyzed and studied on numerous academic fronts - it isn't something that is entirely alien to our psychological and sociological understandings. People act in their supposed benefit - generally. And, in a sociality context, doing what is generally considered "right" is often in one's supposed benefit. It isn't unusual that people take this course of action and I posit that with or without religion this sort of morality would still persist.

Sure, there may not be any absolute values, but that is beyond that fact that actions still hold consequences, people still have evolutionary echoes, and society is a functioning, lively, body. We act accordingly, and we formulate ideas in regards to our goals and society in which we live. That's where you get your morals, and that's where I get mine too. But, I don't even really believe in morality (at least no as an objective entity), so, whatever.

But, just to make fun of your infantile and totalitarian view of ethics:
"If I were to speak your kind of language, I would say that man's only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a "moral commandment" is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments."
-- Ayn Rand: John Galt's radio address in Atlas Shrugged

How precious is your morality if you follow it merely because it is commanded of you? I build my own morality - I consider all angles. I am the creator of my ethical system. You don't make moral choices, hell, some might say you don't make choices at all. You have simply accepted a law for which you have no understanding, and for what? Don't start reading books, lest you find the true roots of your so-called "morality."

It's not like morality is a new idea. Just because someone doesn't have a God to tell them what to do doesn't mean they revert to cavemen, and even cavemen had morals. Religions are made by people. Morals and values arise from observation of society -- when something is not going very well, people look at it and pinpoint what about it is not going well. Then they tell everyone to not do it. It's just like observing a bunch of children for a week and seeing them fall from the plastic house that they climb on. They keep getting hurt. Eventually you're going to realize that maybe climbing on the house isn't such a good idea, so you'll tell them not to, and they'll see that it is wrong. It's not a very complex concept...atheists get their morals the same way anybody else does.

Anyone can really do anything as long as it doesn't hurt a living thing (and don't get all technical like, "Isn't eating animals hurting them?", shut up).

^

LOL at the last thing.

But what says that harming a living thing is wrong, if some person doesn't believe that keeping laws are important?

Also, just to add, atheism is a religeon, so you can add that into your statement.

Anyways, to your example, (let me play along ) what if someone believes that they can climb that house without falling off? See if you apply that principle to everything, we wouldn't have all of the mechanicisms and electronics if people just followed your example.

I don't know, but wouldn't you imagine if you saw kids trying new things and continually failing, in which they experience self doubt, does that mean that no one should try something new?

-"Hey billy"
"hey"
-"whats wrong?"
"nothing"
-"no seriously dude."
"i dont know. Im just a failure. I can't get anything right"

lol. I thought dialogue would help the effect.. anyways.


I've put in my two-cents.

ummmmm
wanna explain how atheism is a religion?

do you know what common sense is? like i said before, look into mental states before assuming things.

^ I'm not saying killing is right. I am just using a person who may think killing is okay. I think there are plenty of examples that I don't have to give. Wait, how about Hitler?

Anyways;

Well to put it simply how I see it;

It offers how you were created.
-BANG!
Where you go and what happens when you die.
-Nothing. Dirt.
What you live by.
-As some have said, observance of society, others have said friends, family etc.
Faith,, right?
-Evolution hasn't completely been proven, there are still many gaps in fossil records and etc (of course I am not saying all other religions are perfect..) If you can tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution is true, PM me.

Hm, sounds a lot like what Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, etc does,
it gives answers. (edit)

1. hitler was not an atheist, so what's ur point? i don't get it

2. what is so hard for u to understand? atheism means u don't believe in god. THAT'S IT. THAT'S ALL, THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO IT. atheism does not offer an explanation to how we were created. it's been repeated multiple times in this thread and u can look it up wherever u would like. atheism does not say any such thing about how we were created. so, u're either stupid or u're lying, which one is it?

3. once again, ur apparent lack of understanding for what atheism is.

4. we live by the same things u live by, minus a being in the sky looking over us

5. evolution is a theory and a fact. same thing as with atheism, i don't even think u know what u're talking about. ( and again, atheism doesn't = belief in evolution, so throwing that in as a proof of atheism as a religion makes no sense)

u haven't made one point that made any sense at all. i'm done responding to u, it's like talking to a brick wall. u don't even know what atheism is and u've been told over and over.

atheist: : one who believes that there is no deity

THE END

exactly.
now i understand why i couldn't understand THEM lol. i mean, do i really have to go back and show you the statistics for religion in jail? now who doesn't know the difference between wrong and right?

Peanups

I find this kind of funny to read. I think it is very reasonable to assume that atheist believe in evolution. There is no other alternate choice unless you choose to believe in,, whatever is good for you? I really don't understand then :/

Anyways, I should change my phrasing. I really can't find a way to make myself clearer. If I can think of better wording I will come back, but all i have is this to change in phrasing:

Evolutionist believe...

Anyways, same can be said to anyone else in the forum. (brick wall statement)

It has been educating talking to you guys. -bows out-