It baffles me when I see these bumper stickers that say 'Support the Troops End the War.' Is that really supporting the troops? Also, we are not in a war right now. We are in a conflict. Congress never declared war on Iraq, Afganistan, or any other countries since 9.11.

The mentality of the men and women in the service is so extreme, especially in the army and marines, that anyone whose never experienced it, really has no say that has any value. It's like a gym teacher trying to teach philosophy. You have to understand that most of the soldiers in Iraq or any other neighboring countries wanted to be there. That's why they signed up. They are taught to be prepared at all times to go to war. It's a soldiers profession to kill. It's their mission.

Saying that, if we don't support their mission, how can we support the people that are carrying it out? It doesn't make any sense. If you've got people back home saying that the war is stupid and wrong, then that is affecting the soldiers because now they have their leaders telling them what they need to do, and others telling them it's wrong. If anything, we should support the conflict.

That's the great thing about a voluntary military. No one forces you to join. And if some body does force you, then it's your fault that you went forth and gave the oath. They ask you right then and there if anyone is forcing you to join, speak now.

In conclusion, those opposed to the current conflict are only creating more damage to society and other societies. If we have any chance of getting out of the Middle East any faster the best thing to do is support our President and his choices. That's how our country made it through WWII. People decided to participate by building weapons and giving food to the troops. They donated money. Until Pearl Harbor we shouldn't have had any involvement, but the American citizens decided that it would be in the best interest to do something instead of talking about it negatively.

Please give me your comments.

Actually, war hasn't been declared since WWII.

Well, thank you for the clarity.

Just supporting your point.

I agree with you, but I don't think society (any time soon) will come to the realization that everyone opposing everything (as if it's the latest and greatest fad) only makes matters worse.

It reminds me of when I driving around with one my brother's friends, who's a former Marine, and was in Fallujah, and some guy in front of us had that "Freedom isn't Free" bumper sticker and he said "what has he paid?".

I do think that you can support the troops, but not support the "mission". They're two different things and you shouldn't let the line blur. Don't say that you are supporting the troops by not supporting what they're doing.

That's basically what I'm saying. Don't say that you're supporting the troops if you don't support the mission. It looks like that's what you just said.

I kinda support your opinion on this.
But when you said it hasn't been declared
a war, doesn't mean it's not a war.
My brother showed me videos of not even half the stuff
he went through in Iraq for a year and a half.
Don't you think it is sort of a war, when people are
killing eachother every single day to keep the United States
safe?

[War: the waging of armed conflict against an enemy; ]

It is a war, it just hasn't been declared an offical one.

I support the troops who risk their lives

It's not ALL there pro choice to go
Some of them go into the military, because
it pays for some college, gives them a place to live.

My brothers friend went in, because he got kicked out of his house, didn't have money for college, and no place to stay.

i'm not saying the "war" is right, having all those troops killed,
but its life. It does suck, but if they do die, they died fighting for our country. They died with pride.

I respect what you wrote above, i'm just simply giving my comments.

I didn't intend it to come out that way. I fully support the military and everything it's doing. I'm a bit of a pro-military nut, taken 4 years rotc, lots of family in military, etc etc. Even if I didn't support what's going on in Iraq, I still think it would be stupid to pull out because it would show the rest of the world that we can be pushed around and will eventually run away with our tails tucked.

war is defined as a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.

therefore, one can support the troops and want to end the war. you can support the troops by stating that you want the war to end. there are several soldiers/troops who do not believe in the war. by speaking out against the war some are voicing the opinions many troops are afraid to voice.

if everyone held your point of view then there would be no point in living in america. two of the "best" things about this country are freedom of speech and freedom of press. both of which allow citizens and non citizens to voice their grievances against the president, as well as praise him and his efforts.

WWII is completely different from the war on iraq...you cannot compare the war on iraq with WWII because the world and its individual nation states were combatting completely different issues.

I don't care what the hell the definition as you say it is, it's a fact that war has not been declared by congress since world war 2.

i definately don't agree with the "conflict", i don't think we should still be over there, but i have nothing but love and respect for our troops over there... my brother is a marine, one of my best friends just got back from camp taji a couple days ago... i think that you can disagree with the "conflict" but still support the troops... you don't have to be pro-war to show some brave people love and support!

You could support the troops by caring for their general welfare and health. Not necessarily by wanting to send them home, or send more in. Correspondence is a form of support as well.

Well, what I said is that you can support the troops if you don't support the mission.

But then the troops get the sense that they're fighting for something that their country doesn't want, and if they get demoralized, that's the worst possible thing that can happen to them.

at least from my experience with the soldiers that i know, they're there for one or both of 2 reasons... the paycheck and/or courage of conviction... if they're only there because it's a well paying job, then they don't really care why they're there or how the country feels about the conflict... if it's a courage of their convictions, then they shouldn't mind what people are saying about the conflict anyway because they believe in what it is that they're doing...

i believe that alot of the controversy about "support the troops, end the war" is based on america's reactions from vietnam... americans don't want to be somewhere we don't belong and get shat on for it and the troops don't want to come home to boos and protests... you DON'T have to agree with the country's decision to b involved in the middle east, but at least have the common courtesy to support the people that are keeping the draft from happening...

Draft won't happen. America is becoming too pussy-like. They would try some stupid shit like offering amnesty to illegals who joined the military.

You may know a few troops, but I hardly think that speaks for the armed forces. I've spent plenty of time on many bases, many filled with troops destined to Iraq. I spent four years in ROTC. I know a lot of people in the military. A lot of them go in because they're gung ho about joining the military, about fighting for the country. Yes, there are some who join for the paycheck, free college, bettering their lives, but a lot of people join because they want to fight for the country.

i wasn't trying to sound like an expert on the subject, that was just the perspective i've gained from some of the people i know... i'm hoping that the draft won't ever happen again, but i can't trust that it won't if another republican gets his hands on the country

Lololololol. You're media brainwashed.

Actually I can't say that for certain, it just sounds that way, the way you pinned sole responsibility on the republicans. The Republicans are also causing global warming, and they create tsunami's so Bush can put our troops on asian soil. Anyways, sorry to come off as rude if I am, I don't mean it that way, it's just this is a subject that I stand very firm on.

Understood. But just to play devil's advocate for sec here, if you are against the war, but do not wish to dampen the spirits of the troops, should you lie to keep their spirits up? Should you give false hope (if you truly believe that it is a lost cause?)

I understand the sentimentality of condemning the war, not the men fighting the war. I just don't know how one would find a balanced way of doing both.

i don't think you're rude at all... everyone has a right to their own opinion... i'm not trying to convert anyone... as to being media brainwashed, i may be... i don't blame republicans for everything but i do believe that a democrat would have ended this conflict already... it's probably due to the fact that i'm a hardcore masshole



that's the true dilemma i think... if the majority of america is against the conflict, then should the soldiers be lied to about it? i feel for the men and women over there, but the sooner this shit ends, the better...

Hmmmm.
I don't think you should lie, because when the troops find out (and they will) they won't be very happy with that. It's situational, as to what to do. I think in the current situation, we need to get people back home to stop expressing all the negativities making the troops feel like they're fighting a war that they don't want to be in for a country that doesn't think they're supposed to be there in the first place.

I know times have changed, but 70 years back, if the country went to war, everyone pitched in, be it taking up jobs to help produce machinery, fighting on the front line, being a nurse, whatever. The country supported itself, and didn't have all the inner conflict that causes such wishy washy decisions and lack of confidence or unanimity.

It's late, and I'm rambling, so I'm not sure if what I just said made sense, or if I even completed the thought that I was thinking. If I didn't, oops :( I'll finish it tomorrow in between classes.

ahhh... that was a simpler time... a time i wish could be resurrected! it's true that alot has changed... there's too much going on in america that's depressing me right now... i'm not even sure that what we have is worth fighting for...(STOP!! i am NOT a commie bastard... i love this country, i'm just disappointed in what it's become at the moment...) however!! the thing that IS worth fighting for is the country that we want it to become... we should be worrying about bettering our own country before trying to better the others!! AMERICA SHOULD NOT BE MOMMY TO THE REST OF THE WORLD!

Yes, but, back then we declared war

I suppose you could go deeper and see what everyone's idea of "supporting" the troops is. I don't think I've seen anyone actually supporting them, besides giving them moral support and sending them goods and such. I mean, hanging a flag in your front yard doesn't count as supporting the troops; that's just patriotism.

I deffinately wouldn't lie to them and act like I supported it. My brother's on his second tour and he knows that I'm not for the "conflict", but he also knows that I support and care about him. He has to do what he's told and I'm always here to try to keep his spirits as high as I can. That would fall under the moral support.

Alright, all I'm really getting is the same thing. Yes, you can support the troops by not supporting the mission. Why though? I gave a logical explination. It's time to hear the rebuttle.

Jammylise: Okay, Yes, according to your definition, we are in a war, but for the United States to enter into war, Congress needs to declare war on a country first. So, technically we are only in a conflict.

SoEffinMajor: Tell me logically how that stands up? Wanting the war to end, but supporting the troops? What does it do for the soldiers? How does it improve our country? Why should I care about what you're saying? < That's just a real question. Not being disrespectful.

I understand i'm just going by how my friends/ex boyfriend/ and family
feel as well as how i feel.

because my mom grew up in the army bases her father and rest of the guys in the family were in the military
my cousins are in the military, my sister grew up on the military base
my sisters husband is in the army
my brother is in the Marines

& so on and so on lol.

i'm just saying, try telling one of our troops in iraq suffering, without baths, good food, hardly any water, hard heat, rockets almost hitting or hitting them, bombs being blown up, hummvs blown up to pieces, loosing loved ones, carrying fallen troops that are dead hand and hand, blood in there face, with heart aches, that we are not in war.

:(

but i know its not correct that it's a war, but it is in some way, just not offical.

what am I suppost to be telling them? My point was that in order to support the troops we must support their mission. That's it. I don't know why everyone is getting into all these different tangents.

I'm not saying that being in the military is easy, because it's not. I'll be the first one to tell you that.

^go back to the navy you flag hugging repulican

f**k you, I wont do what you tell me
No matter how hard you try you cant stop us now
There is no other pill to take so swallow the one that makes you ill
They dont got to burn the books, they just remove em'
Whatcha say, whatcha say, whatcha say, what!

IMAGE REMOVED.

Whooohhoooo!!! America sucks!! Lets all move to Canada!!

wow... what's with the cock-fest there...

anyway... it really makes me depressed to hear all these young kids saying f**k america, move to canada/europe/whatever... of course this country's gonna suck if you just f**king desert it! what ever happened to making a stand and turning things around? how is it ever going to get better if everyone emmigrates? anything worth having is worth fighting for, and a better america is worth fighting for... i just think we're on the wrong battlefield at the moment... we should be blowing up mexico and brazil and possibly bulgaria...

^Anyone who knows me knows I was just joking. I don't hate America, but I dont love it either. It has many, many, many faults and the idea of most Americans that we are the greatest country in the world is just ridiculous.

I support the troops but not their mission, and it's a mistake to believe them to be the same thing. I support all soldiers, I think it's an honor-worthy position, especially now since it has become 100% voluntary. I respect any man who is willing to die for what they believe in, even terrorists. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I'm going to make a prediction of the oncoming years. We will pull out of the middle-east after a nine-month long standstill. After a few months of deliberation, we will announce war on China. However our troop numbers will have reached an all time low and the draft will take effect again after the institution of martial law.

Now the fact that many Americans no longer support the war may have a negative effect on the morale of the soldiers over there now. I'd like to believe that the scorching hot temperatures and the constant mental and physical fatigue just might have more of an impact than we at home.

As far as "member-bashing" Jake, f uck him, he's an Irish pissant. But he's also one of my best friends and I can say whatever the fu ck I want to say to him, and this includes derogatory statements. In fact, most of the statements I make to Jake are derogatory statements. I'm also not sure how calling him a "flag-hugging Republican" counts as bashing. Connect the dots for me there. He is a flag-hugging republican and he'll be the first to admit it.

Now I'm rollin' down Rodeo with a shotgun. These people ain't seen a brown-skinned man since they grandparents bought one.

ok... i'm still kinda new here, so i don't know everyone's little nuances... where i live, there's sooo many kids that are just so apathetic about the state of this country and they're serious about just letting it rot because it's the easy thing to do, it's hard to see when someone's just being sarcastic... i agree 100% with the rest of that tho!!



also... i agree 100%



i kinda like the idea of martial law, but china? seriously... i thought it was one of the koreas we were going after... the north i think? with all the wmd's... and f**k the draft... i really might emmigrate if that shit happens...



agree...



i don't think i said anything about that i don't think that "flag-hugging republican" is an awful thing to say to someone you can bash whoever you want!



random...

Without troops there would be no mission. Troop are the mission. You cannot separate them, unless we have robots. And we don't have robots like that.

I feel that you're right to a point about we at home not supporting the troops having an effect on them. But what do you think a major part of that metal fatigue is? Family. The people back home. Yes, it is also the disturbing images of people's body parts flying in every which direction. Blood spraying all over your face. People getting slowly getting crushed by tanks and screaming for some one to save them until it runs over their lungs. Yes, but family is also a major factor of mental fatigue.

We are the greatest country in the world, but with many flaws. Why else would every body want to come here to live? Secondly, what do you mean 'especially now that it is 100% voluntary?' The army has always been voluntary. There's only been one draft, and do you think that might have been the reason why we lost that conflict?

Not to be a pain in the ass or something, but there's been a few drafts

Vietnam
Korea
The World Wars
Civil War
Tried during the War of 1812, but failed.

Well if the people are the mission, like how you say that the troops are the mission. Wouldn't it be better to say that the government are the mission. Seeing as they are the ones who decide who to invade and how to invade and when to invade? They're closer to the mission than the troops, because they're the ones who put it together and decide upon it. Not the troops. It's kinda like "don't shoot the messenger"; they're just carrying out their orders.

Die for Oil Sucker.

"We support our troops most because we say, 'Bring them home!'
So say 'no' to army, air force, marines!
Get off your butt before your butts blown off!
Don't die for oil, don't be a sucker."

^whatever the hell that means, its pretty gay.

Afghanistan. That was the original target. We then decided to attack Saddham over the dreaded "WMD's." Uh oh people. The fact is that we're there, doesn't matter why, the only thing that matters now is how long. The country is split down the middle on the topic of War. Liberals hate war and protest, Conservatives love war and support. It all boils down to what's best for the economy, because in our modern times that is really all that matters. Our involvement in WWII took us out of our greatest depression, our involvement in this war just might bring us back into one. War used to be a money making machine, but no longer since the advent of computers and factories run by machines. When computers build war technology faster and more efficiently than humans, there is no profit for our country. Where is the profit of War now?

In the oil.

I'll be the first to admit I hate that we are at war, especially in a country that we shouldn't have been in in the first place. However, to remain a "superpower" and our dominating status as the greatest country in the world we need to control the resource in highest demand. So what is best? What is best in the long run?

Economists want what is best for the country.
Libertarians want what is best for the world.

It is impossible to choose the most beneficial choice because what benefits one group does not benefit another. It is the problem, the first problem, as old as existence. There are two sides to every problem, two sides to every debate. There is never a problem with one specific solution(unless you count mathematics, but we're not, we're talking ethics) that everyone can agree upon. Moral problems come down to majority decision, economical problems come down to what creates the highest capital.

Basically, we don't want to be in Iraq, but we need to be there. We need to keep our standard of living in this country, our multi-million dollar movies, our billions of dollars a year spent on bottled water when countries in Africa don't even have running water. We need our Hot Pockets and our Next Top Model shows, and this will be our eventual downfall.

A solitary killer, the firetruck stalks it's prey. The firetruck can consume eight times it's bodt weight. (horn blares) The ambulances will have to wait their turn.

americans are lazy.

we bitch bitch bitch and we dont do a jack thing about it.

you think buying a sticker helps? ehhh.

you can support the troops and not support the mission because it's not their fault they're out there. Yeah they signed the dotted line when they said they'll join the military but most of them never thought they would be fighting a war. Most of those soldiers oppose of the war in Iraq. I THINK to tend the people that say they can't support troops while you oppose of the mission is that they don't have any service relatives/friends that have been to Iraq and experienced them not coming back.

I truly doubt that any of the servicemen or women in Iraq "want" to be there.

But buying a sticker makes people feel better about themselves, and that's all that they care about.


Wow that was a tough one to read. Okay, we've been over the whole you don't support the mission then the troops get demoralized because they feel they're fighting something that the country doesn't want or care about, making it seem kinda pointless to be there in the first pace. Anywho, even if they signed the dotted line thinking they wouldn't be in a war, they should have anticipated conflict if they were at least watching the news and had a vague clue of what was going on in the world.


That's nice and all, but I don't really think that's under debate.

f**k the troops and the mission.
I don't know why I should respect someone who signs off to kill strangers for a paycheck.
Sounds like shit to me.
If only they knew.

P.S. All your arguments suck. What "Supporting the Troops" is is really relative to the desires and wishes of the troops. If the troops want to stay, supporting them would be letting them stay. If they want to leave, supporting them would be helping them leave. It's not that hard to figure, you f**k heads.

^f**k you too then. The troops don't sign up to go shoot people. They have to do what they're told. They sign up to defend the country, and in my opinion there's nothing more honorable than that. Without the troops and the army/navy/marines/airforce, we wouldn't be where we are right now. All the wars in the past (OMG WORLD WARS!!!) could have taken a different turn and we could very well be speaking german right now. If you knew the least bit about history and involvement with the military, you would understand the importance of having a military that's capable, at all times.

Also by supporting their want to leave, that supports insubordination in the military, and a military who doesn't listen to their commanders and does whatever they want isn't a very organized military. A non-organized military can be easily, very easily, beaten.

Yeah, compare the "War in Iraq" to the World Wars.
You're an idiot. I don't respect people who do things merely because they're told to. Further, I don't buy into the idea that a lot of troops sign up for the sole purpose of protecting our country - I'm sure a few do, but I wouldn't imagine it being a very significant number. And, really, being involved in military action doesn't always mean that said action is in place to protect our country. The mere reality of fighting doesn't mean it has a justified or necessitated point. In the case of Iraq, I would argue that we are definitely fighting, but it isn't a fight designed to protect the American people. Worst of all, I would argue it is making us less safe. So, there is no real defense of the country involved in the Iraq war. None whatsoever.

I support some wars, and I do not support others. I support certain military actions, while I do not support the rest. You seem to be arguing that we should accept all military action, merely because it is military action. This, to me, is not a very convincing argument. We have to look at the context and content of the war - the reasoning behind it, the intended goals. And, then, we have to compare these justifications and goals to the fabric of reality. Here, I'm going to say one word, and you should understand: Vietnam.



Uhmm, it's called "Supporting the Troops" for a reason, jackass.
If you want to call it "Supporting a Strong Military", then go for it. But, they're not the same thing.

ok... i agree with the point that you can't support the military's actions just because they are military actions... there are some things worth fighting for, but i really think that this war is not about what we were told it was about... i am by no means a liberal, but i really think that this war is about oil and a sad attempt to up the economy... it worked in the past, bush thought it would do it again... he was wrong... big surprise...

i also agree that there are most likely very few soldiers who sign up solely for the protection of the country... most of the soldiers that i know signed up for the paycheck and the improvement of their job status...

and i have to second the one word: vietnam... that one word speaks volumes... to me at least

Call him an idiot but I'll call you retarded because thats the most retarded thing Ive ever heard. Joining the military is a job, just like any other. People for the most part join the military for some guidance with their lives because they are unsure of what to do for a living. Which is fine, and the military is definitely a respectful path. But like every job they have to do what their told or they'll get fired, or worse. In the case of the military they will get arrested. So no, they may not want to shoot people, but thats what we as taxpayers paid for them to train to do and thats what they signed up for when they took the job in the first place.

Im guessing you're about 13 with your hand on your cock looking at nudie pics while you type half the bullshit you spew out. When you get a little older, you'll realize that when you have a job with a boss, you either do what he tells you or say goodbye to that job.

When it comes down to shooting at strangers and being shot at by strangers for the insurance of fat cat bank accounts, you're a sick, immoral, weak, and scared fool if you don't leave. What kind of people are you talking about? The kind that get their kicks by blowing up innocent people from the safety and distance of the sea? f**k them. Stand up for what you think is right. Say "no" to the military.

Your miserable attempt at an analogy fails. Of course, cause you're an idiot. What should I expect from a "Ra ra, I love war" moron like yourself?
I wash dishes. I do it for money. It isn't that offensive.
Killing people for oil, not so inoffensive. Moron.

Wage earners everywhere, rejoice! You can get paid to kill!
Stop! Put down that dish! Pick up a gun! Get your legs blown off!

People who have the balls and honor to complete what they signed up for and not run away like cowards.

This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw the other day that made me chuckle:
Excluding nazism, fascism, communism, and slavery, war has never solved anything.

You can come back with a retort saying it's dumb to not be the coward and f**k honor it doesn't mean a damn thing if you're dead, but I'd rather be dead and remembered as a hero than known all my life as a coward who fled combat while my friends were being shot at.

Omg, get out of America. Go move to another country. Jeremy is so completely correct. War is about money. Life is about competition to survive in every aspect. We aren't killing people who aren't shooting at us or others, and please don't give me some horror story about how a very tiny (less than 0.01%) minority of soldiers went crazy and killed some-one for no reason. We're killing terrorists and people who are shooting at us. It's not like were just going into another country running and gunning innocent people.

Nate, oil is definitely one of our goals (it's just not politically correct), but it's not the only one. Since when have we been blowing up innocent people from a "safe" distance. Our soldiers are being shot at, and we are stationed within Iraq itself. You're just throwing out a bunch of falsified information.

You sound like another tool that heard something from someone they know that was really upsetting. LMAO, YOU ARE WASHING DISHES YOU LEMMING.

Also Nate, how can you accuse Jeremy of being immoral. You're an atheist. There is no moral standard for atheism. In atheism, morals are relative to the individual. You're morals are set by a combination of the society you live in and the way it effects you. Seeing as it's impossible for someone to have the life as you, no-one has the same morals as you. No-one gives a fuck about what you deem is immoral or moral because it doesn't matter. Why should we care. It's not like you're part of a religion that sets a moral standard for you interpret or debate.

On a side note:
LMAO, you're just a loose pussy Nate (someone who has been f**ked up by pacifistic bullshit to the point of no return). When this country goes to war on it's homeland you're going to get a bullet in your ass, and I'll put a bullet in your head to ease the pain. I don't want a coward on my side that's not willing to do what's necessary to survive. Pacifism is nothing but an idea that will never happen. It's a dream and nothing more. Keep washing dishes and listening to "John Mayer". You can be one of those morons "Waiting on the World to Change". Aren't you 19 years old... OMG get a new job... looser. xD



AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!!

I'll get back to your dumb ass in a while, I just got back from Bloomington. This recycled bullshit is too boring to comment on when I'm this tired.

I'd like to see what part of your arguments aren't recycled.

Wash those recycled dishes Nate. Don't come back til' you're a man.