With the recent Kennedy-Bush alliance (polar opposites at that) for the naturalization of illegal immigrants, a lot of people have come out strongly opposed to the idea and are quite unhappy that bush just brought it back up after the idea was killed.

Is there anyone out there that thinks it should be something that happens? If yes, please explain as I'm curious to see if there is another side (other than the politicians) to this issue and I want to know what makes you see it that way or where your opinions are derived from.

Keeping in mind taxes, social security (haha as if that's going to last), unemployment, and them taking advantage of what's free in the nation (i.e. medicine/education) without putting back into the system.

Well, I consider myself more of a liberal, but it seems like I'm siding more with the conservatives on this. I'm totally against giving them amnesty. We'd just be rewarding them for breaking the law. It's not like the only way a person can enter this country is illegally - the ones that are here had the opportunity to come here the right way. It'd be like a slap in the face just handing them citizenship to the people who entered this country legally. What about back taxes? They shouldnt be able to escape from that.

So if we actually do end up giving all these illegals amnesty, they'll all end up getting social security - something they havent even been paying into. And we all know that it probably wont even be there for our generation already. And then what about welfare and other services? Most of the Mexican adults here in Florida dont even speak enough English to get a decent job - so my guess most of them would easily qualify for welfare and food stamps.

And they're taking American's jobs, seriously. The illegals dont just pick produce anymore. Most of them have moved up to roofing and construction. According to my parents, when they were kids - you saw AMERICANS building homes, and doing roofs. But when companies can pay illegals such low pay, and dont have to give them insurance - why would they hire an American? Everytime I drive past a new subdivision being built or see someone getting a new roof, all of the workers are illegal Mexicans. Oh, and they're doing landscaping too. I have an uncle who's a general contractor, and a cousin who is a head guy for a lawn service - they admit to having nothing but illegals working under them because they can do the work so cheaply. [/rambling]

Please dont get me wrong or anything, I'm definitely not racist. I just cant stand the idea of seeing them being rewarded for breaking the law, and then having to take care of them.

We need to build a huge 20 foot concrete wall across the ENTIRE border, and arm guards with machine guns. That'll stop them from sneaking in.

I dont belive we owe someone who came here ILLEGALLY anything.

Be f**king gratefull that you get 3.25 an hour and have somesort of place to live in.

Im mexican puerto rican and i get called out for "hating" my own because i feel this way,But when my grandmother came over to texas with nothing and from that she worked her way up and then became LEGALIZED.These other people and im not jsut talking about the mexicans, they come here ILLIEGALLY take all the jobs or my personal favorite are the ones (i have reletives like this) who has like 50 f**king kids and they acnt f**king support them so they go on welfare and live off that and rely on that instead of getting on the welfare and getting a job.

And then they have the nerve to flock up and wave around their countries flags in america and have the nerve to st there and demand more from americans?Thats bullshit.We owe you diddly SHIT.

^ Kudos to you for standing up against some of your own people. I bet the criticism gets old. I've had alot of people call me racist for my opinions, but I too cant stand the idea of rewarding people like that.

Yeah, it annoys the crap out of me to see them protesting on tv, demanding for their "rights". Only CITIZENS deserve rights. I'm not against giving them medical care if they're dying or something, but that's about it. Sorry for mostly just referring to Mexicans, but where I live, they are the only ones that are really illegal. And its not because they're Mexicans... I could care less what color their skin is.

I think we need to work on sending them back home, and then letting them come back in legally if they choose to do so.

The only issue is though, without them here... picking our produce, we're going to have to get it elsewhere, which would end up costing us waaay more. But I surely wouldnt mind paying more... but alot of people are afraid of that.

As long as congress keeps kissing ass on the subject, it will never happen. They do a good job about it too, it has died twice to give them amnesty.

They came here illegally, they do not deserve to be paid minimum wage, and they sure as hell don't deserve the right to ignore INS like that damn DVD tells them too. They are not American Citizens, so they do not have those rights. I also hate how I am paying taxes and I see "illegal" immigrants at school and in the town over, and it PISSES me off to know that I have to pay to go to school, and they get in free, I have to pay for food at lunch, they get it for free, and I have to pay for living in this country, and they get a free GOD DAMN ride.

^ Nevermind, you edited.

But just as a side note, I'm so disappointed in Ted Kennedy siding with Bush on the issue.

That I did, LOL. I do it at least once to all my posts.

I originally got the impression that you were disappointed that it didnt pass, but I realized that wasnt the case as soon as you edited lol.

I really do not care for them. I agree with all of you. One thing I really do not like is you have to learn their language to have more job opportunity because jobs want someone that is by lingo and that is ok. I feel they need to learn english. I hate that this country caters to them. Seems like everything you buy rather it's a car, cell phone, or hair products, etc. You can look at the back of the product or readers manual and they all it translated in Spanish. That's what I mean when I say this country caters to them and it's not fair.

They need to pay taxes. It seems like health care costs went up since they came.

^ Yeah, they're killing us when it comes to healthcare. It makes it more expensive for us to go to the hospital, because every time they break a finger or have some kind of minor illness, they go for free. Hospitals cant deny them care. So when they and even alot of actual Americans do that, it raises prices.

And I dont know how much it costs in other areas, but I've heard that it costs around eight thousand dollars to educate each child per year in the public school system. So what about all these illegals sending their kids to our schools, when they dont even help pay into the system? Could you imagine how much better our schools would be if instead of them taking the money, we put it towards higher teacher salaries? Or even on other things? We'd be able to give kids a better education.

^^ I agree. You know their strategy? They come here and have all these babies and we cannot kick them out because the babies are American citizens. That is why you see almost every Mexican couple with ten kids with them.

^ Yep, that's exactly what they're doing. They just keep on coming because they know we'll give them all these handouts. To me they're just Mexico's trash. Mexico isnt that bad, and you dont see their average citizens trying to leave.

^^ Thank you. I agree 100%

To be completely honest, I don't care if immigration is legal or illegal. Either way, people are still going to immigrate, and that's a good thing. If it were not for all the illegal citizens and immigrants, then who would do all the dirty jobs that no one wants to do?

I mean there are a lot of stereotypes about different cultures doing different work. I'm not racist at all, and don't take this as racism, but stereotypically, there are the Arabs who work at the 7-11s. There are the Mexicans who cut the lawns and do all the landscaping. There are Punjabis who drive taxicabs. Society has placed these races to fit with these jobs, or at least that is the mindset of people who live in my area. Granted, not all Mexicans, Punjabis, Arabs, etc. are immigrants, many aren’t. I know this post will make at least someone mad, but it is a debate, and I’m entitled to my own opinion, and my opinion is that if these immigrants were not here then who would do these jobs? How many so-called average looking Americans (based on society’s views) do you see driving taxicabs? How many people are going to be truly dedicated to landscaping? I have family that has other family who are not legal citizens, and they are Slovaks who come from Czech. They do landscaping and work really hard because they need the money to send it back home to support the rest of their family.

I think that if immigrants are willing to work hard just to help out their families back home, then they should be allowed to. After all, no one else really wants to do their jobs, because the pay is low and it is hard work.

As for healthcare, education, social security, etc... I believe that as long as they are in America they should be able to abide by Human Rights. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 2,

QUOTE

Everyone is entitles to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth, or other status.

[Article cut short due to lengthiness. They are in America... They have the right to their freedoms simply by being a human being, as stated above, their race, colour, etc. doesn't change anything -- they still have their freedoms.

Article 13;

QUOTE

1. Everyone has the right of movement and residence within the borders of each State. 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

So if it is stated clearly in the Declaration of Human Rights that anyone is able to leave their country, then I don’t really see the problem, as long as they do not harm the country they enter.

For Education…

QUOTE

Article 26, number 1. Everyone has the right to education.

Etc., again cut short due to lengthiness. They are allowed to be educated. If they can support that education, then there is no harm in putting them in our schools as long as they can follow.

This post is way too long. Blah. My apologies.

Err, edit; After re-reading the posts before me... I would have to agree with 1angel3 that they should pay taxes. I guess if I believe they should be able to obtain Human Rights, they should be equal to the American citizen in paying taxes as well.

They're already here and there's no way we're going to kick all of them out. Last year, when I was getting Medi-Cal, I realized you don't have to be an American Citizen to receive that aid from California. I thought it was a bit ridiculous.

I'm kind of for it. If they're already here, then they should pay their taxes and all that like we do.

The Joy about what you stated above is that the long list of United States Immigration Acts have actually put those which you quoted out of effect.

Also, that is a UN paper. If we all did what the UN said, all the conflicts in the world that are going on now would not be.

False,They used to be able to do that.But as of 1995 even if you marry a american citizen or have kids that are born american,you still can be deported.

The real reason why mexican familys have many kids lies in making sons to pass on the family name and because mexico is pro-large family if thats how you want to put it.


The issue with that is alot of them will find a way to evade it.So we will still have people falling through the cracks.

Oh they're all over the place in Texas too. If they get put into the system and have to pay taxes, some will find ways around it as Mercy said. Then they'll start to want social security, which is already f**ked up enough as it is. And although I speak a little bit of spanish, I don't want to relearn it and become fluent again lol.

I said it was what I would like to see happen, not what I actually thought would happen. Haha. Obviously my opinion and viewpoints are far different compared to the government. Easily if it was up to U.N. we probably wouldn't have as many problems. Easier said than done though.

Most of the "Arabs" you're referring to dont work in the 7-11's - alot of them OWN them, and other gas stations. Not just Arabs, but Middle Easterners in General. They get all kinds of tax breaks. Either way though, they're usually LEGAL.

That's what's killing us though - they're getting all kinds of hand outs and benefits... and just sending it all back home. They dont even have to pay income taxes, which is alot of money. The pay is low because businesses know they can pay them low wages. They dont have to give them medical insurance, or have to worry about workers comp. Everything's under the table - they dont even get actual "pay checks"... at least around here. They're usually just paid in cash. Besides picking produce, there are still some Americans left who do the same jobs they do. Roofing, landscaping, construction. They just alot of times end up getting fired or cant get the job to begin with, because they can pay a illegal Mexican half of what they would have to pay them. Dont even start to think that equals lower prices for the customer, because it doesnt. That's just more profits for the actual employer.

The Declaration of Human rights is referring to CITIZENS, right? How would they apply to someone who ILLEGALY entered our country?

Yeah, and they're practically invading Florida. Farming is still a fairly big industry, so they flock here to pick the strawberries and oranges. And then they eventually get tired of those jobs, and move on to other things.

My God, if they got social security, that would INSURE that it wont be there for us when we're older.

I agree - there's already tons of billboards and other things in Spanish in alot of places... I cant even imagine what it would be like if they got amnesty. Watch the Spanish language take over. I have no problem with having to learn it in school, but it just bugs me that its needed for alot of jobs these days. ENGLISH is our official language, not Spanish. We need to stop catering to people.

Yeah... The whole 7-11 example wasn't the best, I admit. I was tired, and still tried to get my point across, sadly I merged the ideas of stereotypical jobs and society's illegal races jobs. No excuse, but sorry for that mix-up. There's still the idea of taxi drivers and landscapers, though, that's a given. Especially landscapers; my town is full of them.

Yes, they are getting hand outs and benefits; I later said I believe they should pay some sort of taxes. And as for low pay, cash pay checks, etc, I'm completely aware of that because in my last job the entire kitchen was Illegal Mexicans from Costa Rica. Our pay checks were in cash. However, they still had money taken out for taxes. I'm not sure how that worked out, I tried to stay out of their business and do my job, but hearing about them being paid in cash is nothing new to me. Also, I don't see anything wrong with these people sending their money back home. What people do with their own money that they earned is their own business. As for them being able to just obtain money without having to deal with taxes and such, yeah that's bull. None of what you said in your second paragraph is new to hear. No offense, I'm not trying to be a bitch at all.

As for the DoHR, yes, it applies to citizens, however, if immigrants would just get a red card, then they should be allowed to their Human Rights. Or at least I think so. I also thing that Human Rights applying to only citizens is kind of ridiculous, considering that they are human rights, not citizen rights. However, human rights vs. citizen rights and the idea of immigrants "just getting a red card" [which is idealistic] is slightly off topic. I tend to drift a lot.

So how do they go around it?

Get around taxes? Easy.
You cant filetaxes if you dont have a green card or proof to show you are a citizen.

Geting healthcare?super easy
Anyone and everyone who makes less money is eligleble for their state issued healthcare.

Housing? Section 8 is eligle for everyone under a certain income braquet.Some will find ways to try and fake a green card.


How do i know all of this?My uncle got the f**k thrown out of the US for pulling all this shit.And i really dont think he was the only one.

Whether they're here legally or illegally, they're still going to be here. I honestly think that we need to revise what someone needs to do to become a citizen. A lot of what's happening with the immigrants from Mexico is like history repeating it's self, because the same kind of things happened to people coming through Ellis Island.

If they are legalized, how do they get around not paying taxes?

Well it be what other people do..
"Tax-evasion"
You just dont send ANYTHING.

But there are ways of tracking them down seeing as they are legalized.Its a whole other ball park.

Yeah, so if they can get tracked down, what's the problem? I'm sure they're not the only ones who can or will evade taxes.

Plus, if I'm going to be getting a tax return, I sure as hell have an incentive to file, just as many others will.

Hmmm i never thought about it that way.
Who the hell would want to avoid that??

And at least americans get tax returns

As for the Social Security benefits, from what I understand, you have to have worked to receive them.

I dont understand how they could get out of paying taxes if they become citizens... unless their employer pays them under the table. But that would just be for income taxes.

Well, I know alot of people are wanting them to have to pay back taxes to get citizenship. I wish that would work, but there's no way for us to prove how long they've been here. A person might have been here 10 years, and only claim that they've been here for 2.

Oh I didn't know that. But that was their strategy for awhile. I didn't think that was the only reason they was having so many kids when they got here. I know they into the family thing and passing their name down. Because Philippine women was marrying American soldier so they can live here in America. That's why I didn't think they could deport them out the country.

People who illegally immigrate lived a shitty life, and they illegally immigrate in pursuit of a better life. Seriously, can you blame them? Many people I talk to about this issue ignorantly say "I don't care about illegal immigrates problems in their native land". Imagine if you were the one in their position, in a country of war, poverty, or governmental abuse. EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT LIVE LIFE. I mean, if I was living hard life, and America offered a better life, heck yes I would illegally immigrate, and I bet all of you would if in that position. Example: Comeon who here would not illegally escape and stay in their country working in fields 16 hours a day, living in dirty/cramped tenent housing just to make enough for a minimal diet being constantly on a hungry stomache with no future.

Plus, most illegal immigrates are still living a terrible, harworking life in American standards, holding jobs that most Americans don't want. Hopefully I don't offend anyone here, but if you are out of highschool and competing for jobs taken by illegal immigrates (like crop picking, sewage cleaning), then you don't deserve it, because you are "stupid", you had a key at a better life aka schooling which many illegal immigrates are deprived of.


bottomline, illegal immigration is a problem, but I believe it's wrong to deport, block, or prevent naturalization to illegal immigrants.

^ But we're talking Mexico here, not freaking AFRICA. Mexico is way better off than most, if not all of the countries in Central and South America. Poverty isnt THAT bad in Mexico, and when have they had to deal with war and significant govermental abuse? I've never heard of any of that.

Not every American is mentally capable of obtaining a college degree, or having a better job. Of course no American wants to pick fruit, but come on. They've INVADED the construction, roofing, and landscaping industry.

Why should any of what you said be an excuse to come here illegally? People immigrate from places that are by far worse... and do it LEGALLY. So why cant they?

Then explain to me why they come here, find loopholes around paying taxes, get jobs where they spend half the time sitting around a f**king tree, abuse the medical system, burn the American flag, and have babies when they can't f**king afford to have them.

Also why the hell don't they work on bettering their own damn country? I know it's hard, but if the entire country set it's mind to it, they could pull it off. They're not motivated enough, too lazy, too stupid, or content with their current life. I'm not saying everyone is this way, but as a generality, I would say that.

I live in Texas, there are shitloads of Mexicans here. They're lazy. LAZY.

^ AMEN. I know Florida's bad, but I cant imagine what Texas is like. I hate how most of them refuse to learn freaking English. And then we end up having billboards, signs, commercials, and a bunch of other crap in not English, but Spanish. Why are we cateoring to them?!

I refuse to speak a language other than English in my own country. I dont mind it when a a forigner is here on vacation and cant speak English... but there's no excuse for someone who wants to be an American to NOT speak the language.

It's called their cultural background... If they are Mexican, they speak Spanish. Most illegal immigrants are around themselves in their ghettos, so there is not really a use to learn English since everyone speaks the language they speak, so they way the see it... Why bother to learn English?
But yes I agree that they should attempt to learn English to fit into society.



wow dude, you're ignorant

you make it sound like only illegal immigrants "have babies when they can't f**king afford to have them"... my ass, every race faces that problem. I bet your mother sleeps around too, ah yes Steve that is why her belly got big and she needed an abortion. I can say that about almost everything you mentioned, haha my teacher even got fired for dogding taxes. I agree that illegal immigrants abuse medical systems, dodge taxes more, but they are still in poverty, doing anything to gain money. It's human nature; lying/cheating/stealing. EVERYONE DOES IT. But I somewhat agree, this is a problem, not just for illegal immigrants, but everyone.

I would sure like to know where they "get jobs where they spend half the time sitting around a f**king tree." I want that job. You make it sound like illegal immigrants are lazy... well let me tell you this you ignorant faggot, most Chinese illegal immigrants work 7 days a week, the whole day, in Chinese resturants. Many of them have to work their asses for 20-25 years to repay debts to snakeheads (who smugle them into the US) who threaten to kill their family. Down in California, most crop picking jobs are beening taken by illegal immigrants will to work illegal for under minimum wage for long hours in the blazing sun. Compared to these people we are are "LAZY".

"Also why the hell don't they work on bettering their own damn country?" haha, you really can't see clearly, easier said than done... China for example has a terrible government. Yea, work on improving... IMPOSSIBLE. Seriously, think things out before you type.

Burning the American flag... haha I don't know why, Maybe it's because they hate America and Americans, because people like you are so f**king racist towards them.

Serious Steve? why do you have to swear so much and attack people with your language. This is the third time you did this to me. Atleast this time you didn't call me a "f**king retard". This is an online forum... chill out please. Go dye the rest of your head red, you "f**king retard".

Sorry everyone else for my offensive post, but I hate this kid.

Now chew on this everyone.

In mexico.You would be jailed no quesions asked if you snuck over to their contry.
If you do manage to naturalize into their country,You wont get a job,you wont get any rights or benifits beause you werent born there.

Now tell me
WHY THE f**k SHOULD WE GIVE THEM SHIT,IF ITS THE DOUBLE STANDARD OVER THERE.

Who the hell would want to sneak into Mexico?

Someone who's just commited a crime (like murder), owes someone money, etc.

So how do murderers compare to people who are trying to better the lives of themselves and their families?

Bigger point: Anyone take into account how hard it is and how long it takes to become a citizen? Especially when you're not from a preferred place?

Screw it, close the borders stop allowing immigrants to come in. And fix the problems within our borders. Once things are fixed, then re-open the borders with more security and make sure everyone comes in legally.

Is that just word of mouth? Or do you have an actual legit source? Don't mind if it's in Spanish either, preferably from Mexican government.

Please source your claim :)

There's no way we're going to close our borders.

Also, I would like to see where it says that:

In mexico.You would be jailed no quesions asked if you snuck over to their contry.
If you do manage to naturalize into their country,You wont get a job,you wont get any rights or benifits beause you werent born there.

Does my father who works in law enforcement down there count enough to you or no?


And Please dont double post Tamacracker.God made the Edit button.


Here let me explain that a little bit better.
In mexico they have strict imigration policys about people commming in.US Murderers can enter the contry and be protected because bounty hunting in illegal."Dog the bounty hunter" is in deep shit with the country right now because of it.

Now if you were ever to become an "Ex-Patriot" down there.You would have very little benefits,Because most of them like the health care and welfare system are really only available to natural born citizens.Not to mention the federallies love to f**k with Ex-patriots down there,Especialy in heavy tourist areas like Cancun.

And then its people like arnold (iamnotspellinghislastname) who get called out as being an a-hole for saying the truth "Turn off the spanish TV".I should have to be forced to speak spanish just because of a bunch of people decided to come up here.Again I still have yet to owe you nothing.

Oh I'm very chill my friend.

Also I'm not talking about the Chinese. I have respect for the Asians. They're very hard workers.

As to the being lazy, if you lived down in Texas you might see them sitting around trees all the time. I know I do.

For instance. I saw this group of Hispanics working on a site across from a site I was working at, and they were to go bury a phone line that had came out of the ground. They got out there, dug up a little ditch for it which took about 30 minutes, then they found a shady spot by a fence and took a 2 hour break. After that they buried the phone line, then sat around for another 30 minutes. Sounds kinda lazy to me.

Also I said there was always the exception, which you might have overlooked. I know not every illegal Mexican immigrant is this way, but I feel it's pretty safe to generalize this, well, in Texas at least.

As to the comment about my mother needing an abortion, way to make yourself look ignorant. You see, my mother worked her way through college and got a job before she even considered having kids. Now there's me and I have two younger brothers and we live just fine because both my parents did the smart thing and found a steady income before they had us. GG.

If they hate Americans so much why do they come over here? After all, this is America.

I know all the cussing was probably unnecessary, so I apologize for that as in hindsight I do agree that it made my post a little bit trashy, I was just in the heat of the moment, you should understand that :)

I didn't call you a f**king retard this time because I am interested to hear your point of view. I do apologize for typing irrationally on an online forum. Continue please :)

Naaah... not good enough. I need actual documentation. Ask your dad where online can you look up the info he's providing you with.

And sorry about the double post... I don't have the privilege to delete my own posts.

You might want to calm down, don't you think?


No, he didn't.