So there's been an issue with men being paid more than women when it comes to jobs.

Say a girl and a boy around the same age worked at the same store (and were paid equally). Now say they went on a date. Chances are, the girl wouldn't spend a dime and the boy would be spending all of his hard-earned money. The girl would only end up spending her paycheck on herself. The point? Men have more needs for money than women do. Men fundamentally have a need to spend more money than women do.

Generally, men are paid more than women for the same jobs because, well, men have more demands for money than women do. Men want paying jobs. Women want glamorous jobs. Women never seem to demand that half of sewage workers or half of window cleaners are female.


And I'm just going to put it out there now, I don't follow any of the above, but I'm willing to debate with you anyway.

With the date thing, you have a point.
But hey, that's not always the case. If they weren't dating, the women would still argue the fact that they're not making as much $ and may not be living their lives as decent, especially if they're single moms or something along those lines.

Could you be specific?

Really now, maybe it's just me, but I believe that in dating, more and more people are splitting the bill. I personally would split the bill. Having the guy pay for everything is such a chauvinistic thing to do. And could you expand on how:

Men always paying for everything on dates is a little old fashioned. More and more people these days split things.

What about single mothers? Are they just sol, since they're female?

women take their kids everywhere. therefore, needing money for fuel.
women buy groceries. therefore, needing money for food.
women buy their clothes, their husband's clothes, and their kids clothes, therefore needing money for clothing.
women get to go home to a messy house and have a ton of chores to do like unloading the dishwasher, washing/drying clothes, folding clothes, paperwork, vacuming, cleaning in general, therefore needing more time.
women have way more needs for money than men. men usually just go out and spend their money on boats, trucks, ect. that they don't need. not to mention, they want the woman to look pretty all the time, which is just too hard for her with trying to make him happy and do all the things listed above with the short ammount of time given in a day and not getting paid what she's worth. it's ridiculous.

... and women spend a lot of money on cosmetic, fashions, and etc.

I always pay for myself when I go out with a guy. Hell, I actually pay for the both of us more often than he does.

And as stated before, women do much of the shopping for their husbands, kids, & selves.

Why the eff should two people be paid differently for doing the exact same thing? What does it matter if they're male or female?

Traditionally, men are the ones out working for the money while women are at home caring for the house and children.And that's where the money goes.

Winner.

Ok, you guys got that one. There's not too much else for me to say without sounding like a male supremest extremist.

New Question: Male =/= Female
So why are people trying to make them equal?

how are they not equal?
i actually think women are more deserving than men are.
most men do work hard jobs, but that's because their bodies are made to.
most women work hard jobs as well, it's just doesn't deal with as much physical work as the jobs men have.
men complain about their jobs, nontheles. even if they did have an easy job, they'd complain. what makes men so much more valuble than women. nothing at all. they're both valuble to society. without women, there'd be no new people in the world, therefore the population would die out. the same applies for men. without men, there'd be no way to reproduce fertile offspring.that means that even though they were designed to complete different tasks, they were both created equaly and should be treated as such. they're both a big part of reproduction and the world in general.

Be careful, that's not what your Bible says.

1) Physically
2) Mentally
3) It appears you answered your own question.

Fact: Women are better optimized for nurturing a child than a man.
Fact: The male body is better optimized for physical work than a female's.
Thus, they are not equal.

Why do you think there's the NBA, and then the WNBA; PGA, and then LPGA?

Oh, it appears there's a double standard as well. How come it's easier for a woman to attack the system and be allowed to play for the male's league than it is for a man to get into the woman's league?

^ You're right, both genders have their strengths and weaknesses, but overall, one is no better than the other. Both deserve the same rights, and same pay.

I forgot to address this earlier. Women are simply offered a salary (which tends to be lower than if it were a male), and well, they accept it and take the job. It isn't the corporation's problem if the woman is going to accept a lower salary. In fact, that's less money they have to give away.

You know I tell you what women belong in the kitchen and don't deserve the same pay as men.

They're good for vagina and food.

That's it. MEN NUMBER 1!

wtf?

i'm sorry. i know it's a debate but i'm seriously pissed off.

women buy cosmetics. clothes. shoes. etc.

men freaking buy game consoles. media centers. flat screen tvs.

why is it only exclusive to women who buy useless/fun/desired thing?

you know why they should be paid the same? because women have to do the same thing to get to the same place. a women doctor still has to go to medical school, depending on their field, deal with sexism from their colleagues. a women engineer still has to go to school. a women lawyer still has to go to law school.

men AND women have to pay for bills. rent. student loans. mortages.

most women offer to pay but men feel the freaking macho duty to pay for the dinner. if i earned the 100K a year like i'm suppose to when i become a doctor, why wouldn't i pay 50 bucks for my own dinner?

QUOTE

I forgot to address this earlier. Women are simply offered a salary (which tends to be lower than if it were a male), and well, they accept it and take the job. It isn't the corporation's problem if the woman is going to accept a lower salary. In fact, that's less money they have to give away.

obviously that's wrong too. and no. that's only half true. but once the women start doing their job and realize the salary differences, they will address it. but guess what? they won't get it.

married women get paid less than a married man. a married woman with kids earns less than a married man with kids.

if you have a problem with forking over money for dates, then don't ask a girl out. or pick a good, normal girl who would offer to pay. don't you dare say just because men pay for dates, women shouldn't get the same salary. if i go to medical school for nearly 10 years, i should get the same damn pay.

This discussion has too many exceptions. Both women and men have different demands for money, not to mention the various types of women and men.



Although I agree with your argument that men usually pay for the dates (exceptions noted), I completely disagree with this. In fact, I think it's bull shit. You call sitting in your nice, cube office with a computer and music playing not glamorous... while wiping shit from a pissing, crying, stinking, baby is? You think that mopping the floors is seriously more desirable than taking care of multiple screaming, demanding, loud, smelly children?

Yet, there will always be exceptions. Men who take care of their kids. Feminists who demand their way.
Which makes this discussion very difficult to debate.

Arjuna just wants to sound smart. The actual topic he posted here is hardly debatable. Be Pacific, not Atlantic.

Uh-oh.

Caring for your child isn't usually regarded as an actual career.

It's not always what you decide to do as a career, but how well you do it. And to be fair, this factor doesn't effect just women, but even male to male. In the case of the PGA tour, all of the males are playing golf, but obviously, some are playing better than others. Which is why Tiger Woods gets more money from playing golf than many other players.

So, I'm sure we can agree now that men are generally physically more apt than women, simply by looking at the athletic world.
Now I propose, men are smarter than women.

this debate isn't about religion so back off. you don't even know much about "my Bible".
and since you want to sound so educated, please show me the verses that say otherwise.

While I would prefer that this discussion not get too much into religion, I would say mentions of sexual equality (or sexual inequality) in religious scripture would be worth mentioning.

correct, but as far as the Bible goes, i'd say only scriptures in the new testament would be worth listing. in the old testament, everything was different.

So, only things from the New Testament should be noted while the rest of the Bible can be disregarded?

(If you decide to reply, I prefer that you reply in the bible...fairytales? thread.)

Eeeek, sorry Arjuna. I'll respond there then.

[edited]

Actually, a man would probably pay for the first date, maybe the second or even third. But after that, what normal human beings would do is split the bill, unless the guy is a LOT LOT LOT wealthier than the girl.

That aside. Guys have more needs for money? Don't think so. We, women, also have needs - equal or maybe even exceeding the needs of a typical man.

I'll be stereotypical here, but for instance:

- a single mom that has to take care of her child would logically need more money than a single guy, most times.

- money for make up, hair products (some women spend a fortune on these), shaving/waxing equipment, pads/tampons, birth control (pills that we take, etc), clothes (although this goes for both sexes, but most women "need" more shopping there), accessoires (jewelry mostly), perfumes/body lotions/moisturizers/tanning moisturizers, and I can't think of anymore examples. But I'm sure there's more.

- some women don't date.

- what about arranged marriages? The expenses which you mentioned wouldn't be in there, I guess. Could be wrong.

- lesbians. No guys there to pay for the date.

So why should we get paid less?

QUOTE

Now I propose, men are smarter than women.

Any proof on that? Some statistics? Why should I believe that?

So, what you're saying here is, women deserve money because they're a bunch of materialistic hos?

Women don't get as much money because they're a dead investment.

f**kin bitches

Sorry guys, like I said before, I really don't have anything to argue against that sort of logic right now, so I'm letting it rest for the moment. In other words, you win that for now.

Well, did you check the article I linked to, for starters?

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/06...brainy_men.html
(And before someone bites about it, the article was written by a woman.)

Please don't spam.

^and please keep in mind to be respectful to both sides (sexes) of the debate. so don't refer to women as "dead investment" or "bitches".

well. it's been a general assumption that men are more impulsive while women tend to read into things and dwell on them. so, a guy might decide to buy 1000 shares in a company because it's having a good quarter while a girl might wait it out a bit to see if it's safe.

if men are more intelligent than women, and that should be the basis for salary, why can't we pay skinny people more and fat people less? i mean, fat people are just unhealthy and waste all their money on food. hell, they're going to die pretty soon from their blood turning into lard, so they don't deserve the same salary as a skinny person in the same job.

Men pay the bills of the house, the cars, the insurance, the family income, etc. Simply, men get paid more because in a typical family, the husband goes to work while the woman stays at home.

I believe there will never be sexual equality in the world, that God created man before a woman for a reason, taking one part of Adam to make Eve. There should, however, be a fine line for wages and rights though.

The hell?

Women ARE a dead investment. There is no getting around that. That's because women tend to have babies, while men usually don't. Dead investment.

What if, in someone's family, the mother works and the father stays home? That family should get less money simply because the mother works?

And, sorry, but not everyone believes in God.

Women should get paid as much as men do, and chivalry should be burned. That's what I say.

If you want equality, take equality as a whole, not parts of it. If you want to be treated with respect, treat others with the same respect. I despise how feminists argue how men always try to bring them down with their evil penises, while then turning and expecting men to simply get on their knees for them. If you do not see others equally, you yourself will not be seen as equals either.

I'm not saying women aren't equal to men. I'm saying that feminism died in the 90s and that reform is urgently needed to drench feudalism and all it stood for with kerosene and burn it to the ground.

That's a rare occurence; plus you can't fit EVERYONE's needs. Plus it depends on what type of job you have.

Men are never satisfied, are they? If we're not materialistic bitches, we'll be bitches who don't give a shit about their appearance and look extremely unattractive. But that's not good for you either. Then you'll be all like, "Well, hoe, you look like an ape, how do you expect me to date you?!" or "OH MY FREAKIN' GOD, YOU DON'T SHAVE?! YOU THINK WE'RE IN THE JUNGLE OR SOMETHING?!" or "I can't see your face. It's lost in all the hair. Or wait, IS that hair?..."

Make up your mind, will ya?

QUOTE(onewaysalcha @ May 1 2007, 11:58 PM)

Men pay the bills of the house, the cars, the insurance, the family income, etc. Simply, men get paid more because in a typical family, the husband goes to work while the woman stays at home.

I believe there will never be sexual equality in the world, that God created man before a woman for a reason, taking one part of Adam to make Eve. There should, however, be a fine line for wages and rights though.

How's it like to live in the 18th century?

So what does any of this have to do with women deserving more money?

We do need to buy all these things. Hence, we do need just as much money as men.

Need?

You wanna pull this "well we need makeup or men won't like us?" bullshit? Then how about men need more money because they need expensive cars, clothes and houses to impress women? Therefore, men need more money than women and it's totally fair.

Nah, having expensive cars and caring for your appearance are two different things. Honestly, how many times have you gone out with a chick who doesn't do anything for her appearance?

I never said "more". I just said as much ;) If you guys are saying men have to pay for dates and that's why they deserve more money, why shouldn't I use make up to argue the contrary? It's totally fair.

This is pathetic.

1) Society has made it soo that men should pay for dates.

Reality Check: Both should pay, it's not written anywhere in this universe that one should pay

2) Make up for girls, hair products, etc.

Reality Check: I'm a very well groomed guy and I spend money on hair products, clothes, creams, etc to maintain my good looks. So thats no excuse.

3) Men buying houses, cars, etc to impress the ladies?

Reality check: Since when do you buy a car or house to impress the opposite sex. If someone ever did that then they are by far the most stupid and most simple minded human being in the world.

Seriously, get over yourselves, it's retarded when both men and women bitch about eachother. Men and Women are equal whether you like that or not, see that or not, it's the truth. Both have their own weaknesses and strength but both are designed from mother nature as equals. So if a man and woman does the exact same job then they should be payed equally. The only down side is that for some stupid reason women are paid less. It's the 21st century and our society is still like this? what a joke.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Men make more money because they earn more money. They DESERVE more money. Not because they NEED more money.

Women are dead investments in the workplace; that is why they do not deserve as much money as men. That is why they do not make as much money as men.

You can try to pull this artificial need bullshit all you want. You know what, tell your employer, the next time you ask for a raise, use your argument to get the raise. Good luck keeping your job.



You just contradicted yourself. Men and Women are equal whether you like that or not, see that or not, it's the truth. Both have their own weaknesses and strength.... Fail.

Too bad on a whole, men and women DON'T do the same exact job. That's why women tend to get paid less, because they are weaker, usually don't have the required intelligence and companies know they aren't a dependable source of work due to the fact that they have babies.

Basically, MEN ARE BETTAR!!1

kryogenix, you fail Embarrassingly because you some how can't see the point. Men and women have there own qualities. Even on a individual scale, the man to the left isn't the same as the man to the right, simple.

But overall when you add it all up, there equal. It's amusing you couldn't see something that simple. Oh well, life goes on.

Talent in nurturing is for home and the day-care center.The point is that, generally, man is not equal in capability as woman in so-and-so.

This is already evident in athletics (I think I've said that about a thousand times by now) and the military.

"Generally, men are physically stronger than women."
And then you can go on.
"Generally, men are smarter than women."
"Generally, men are more humorous than women."
And to be fair, "Generally, women are better at nurturing than men."

I'm not saying those statements are necessarily true, but you should get the point.

And you fail for once again admitting that men and women are different but equal. Talk about self ownage...



Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone is equally entitled, but men and women are two different fish. You wanna know what's amusing? Your attitude of false bravado.

There's a reason why there are more female gymnasts and male weightlifters. There's a reason why more often than not men are military leaders and women are nurses.

Not to mention no one gives a shit in this debate if it all adds up in the end and they're equal. If you don't have the capacity to understand this, fine, for arguments' sake, I'll agree that men and women have different qualities but are equal in the end. However that means shit when you have a job, because jobs have this thing called specialization. No one gives a shit how well you can sew if your job is to lift heavy concrete blocks every day. No one gives a shit if you can carry heavy concrete blocks every day if your job is to sew pants.

So to summarize:

1) You aren't even on topic on what we're arguing about here (equal wages in jobs)
2) You tell me I fail even though you randomly capitalize words in the middle of sentences
3) You tell me I fail even though you're absolutely wrong
4) You got owned big time, not only by me, but by yourself
5) Go play in your garden or something kid, this isn't for you.

But hey, apparently your philosophy is to lie to yourself and to others about abilities to make you/them feel good, so I'm going to be pessimistic and predict you're going to keep on arguing.

Kryogenix you say i'm totally wrong and all that other jazz, what's that got to do with this debate...nothing. You give no real reasons, heh. Calm down, I can't believe your actually get worked up over something like this.

Oh and wrong again on soo many levels, i'm not arguing, simply debating and apparently you have no idea about my philosophy so lets not go there.

Anyways I agree about the jobs specializations suited for each gender. But it doesn't matter if for example both a man and woman are doing the same job. Both should get paid equally.

Are you f**king serious?



You must be new around here.



Wow. Just wow.

You. Garden. Now.



No they shouldn't. They should get paid whatever the company thinks they are worth to them. If that's not enough for them, renegotiate the contract or find another company to work for. If their services are that necessary, then they'll get the wage they want. But clearly their services aren't worth it, or the women just don't want it enough to go through the trouble.

Discussion on the topic's great, but if you want to continue to talk about who fails and what not, take it to the PMs. Or at least, don't continue here.

No, it's not whatever the company thinks since each company has to work to a certain guideline and regulation put forth by the government. So they can't just pay them whatever they want. Besides the government is trying to reach a more level ground when it comes to wages. Although ability to do the job right and to the company's required standard is an factor in a persons annual wage.




How about you growing some balls and start acting mature.