earlier today, i was debating with another cber about the bible. she seemed to believe that jesus walked the earth, but she doesn't believe in god, nor any of the historical stories in the bible, such as the flood that god sent to rid the world of all evil.
i believe in god, as well as the stories in the bible.
i just think that over the many years people have made the stories into fairytales. perhaps they overdid it on the describing details by using dramatic hyperboles. people are the ones that leave us wondering about our faith, not god.
i believe that they all happened the original way that god planned them, but there isn't very much proof anymore because of people. although, god could also be testing our faithfulnes toward him being in control. what do you think?

There's definitely at least some truth in the Bible. How accurate and reliable it is? I can't quite say.

there's obviously some truth in it, but which parts?

Some of the "essentials" of Christianity. Say, God being the Supreme Being, Jesus being God incarnated, and so on.

Details and events such as the flood and all that aren't exactly necessary, however.
One thing when it comes to the Bible.

but you see, i'm lost behind her reasoning. she said that she believed that jesus walked the earth. but she doesn't believe in god or the stories in the bible. i'm lost as to how that can be. i thought that jesus was god in human form. so how could she believe that jesus was real but god wasn't. isn't that trinity? i asked her about her reasoning but at that point it just seemed that she wanted to tell me that all christians were alike. from then on, she proceeded to tell me how closed-minded i was because i told her that her belifs was warped because she couldn't back up her ridiculous argument and she kept saying the same comment over and over and trying to change the subject. that is, after she told me that my reasoning for actually beliving in god and having a religion at all was "f**ked up". gah. i dislike trends.

Sounds like denial if she's not backing her reasoning up.

Anyhow, some people believe that Jesus was an actual person, sure, but wasn't at all an incarnate of God (though some say, maybe a prophet, or maybe no one special at all).

THere are truths in the bible, like that Jesus was the son of God and that he rose from the dead, but not all of it is true. After all the bible was written by man, not God or Jesus himself.

There's some factual truths involving historical characters and events, but we're talking about general knowledge such as recognizing the existence of King Solomon, or the division of the Jewish tribes. Most probably due to the time in which the texts the bible is based upon were written.

The rest is cannon fodder for moderate skepticism and positive science.

Some of the prophecies made in the Bible have actually happend and have been proved that they have happend. I dont exactly remember, but there was a prophecy of a wall falling (back in biblical times) and it has been proven that the prophecy was actually made before the wall actually coming down. Because that prophecy was written in the dead sea scrolls and then some scientists used science to find out when the scrolls have been written; which turned out to be before the falling of this "wall". If anybody would like to go and actually research anything about this, correct me if i'm wrong. I'm just remembering things that I learned from church.

But think about it.. Most people that dont believe in a God or a Supreme being, if you listen to what they have to say most of it sounds more like excuses than explanations.

ALSO.. in the book of Revelations alot of the stuff happening now adds up to what It predicts. Like it saying that when the anti-christ actually comes to power there will be a way for him to massly produce his teachings. What better time than now? I mean with the internet and televisions, satelite radio o.o.

Just keep your faith in God. I think satan purposely gets those kinds of people to manipulate Christians into thinking that God isnt real.

the bible was written by man, but god lead them and told themwhat to actually put in it. if the facts that the authors wrote weren't true, wouldn't he have had someone else do it?

I know many people who believe that Jesus lived. Isn't that a fact? But they also believe that Jesus' existence doesn't prove anything he claimed to be. Sure, the Bible has historical events, but to believe EVERYTHING in the Bible is faith.

Wowee Zowee. Glad to be on Satan's side (not that I was aware I had picked one until you posted anyway).

that is what jewish people believe if i'm not mistaken. correct me if i'm wrong.
they believe that jesus lived and that he was a very good man that walked on earth, but they don't believe that he performed miracles, got crusified, ect.
you are right. to believe everything in the bible is faith, which is a large factor and portion of christianity.

Um, I'm not sure. I don't know much about Judaism. I meant that some people that are athiest, agnostic, etc, believe that Jesus was, in fact, a man on earth, just like George Washington, who existed.

Jewish people believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. The foundation of Judiasm is "the lord our god is one," so really, how could he be in the eyes of Jews? Many Jews (non-Orthodox) believe that the stories in the bible are supposed to be valued for their message, and not to be taken as fact. They're just stories that teach lessons.

Yeah, they just believe in the Old Testament. They believe a messiah will eventually come, but they don't believe it was Jesus, mostly because he changed old Jewish law with the writtings in the New Testament. They dont believe God's law EVER changes.

And aside from that, they believe worshiping Jesus is Paganism (the belief/worship in more than one God). As far as I know, whenever the messiah does actually come, they dont believe he should be worshiped and placed as high as God (which in a sense is what Christianity does).

Not all Jews believe that about him - there's some who believe he never even existed. It just varies within the different "denominations", or sects.

There was a news article on the BBC a couple weeks back about how scientists said that there was absolutely no evidence that the Red Sea had been parted before. So therefore, the story of Moses parting the Red Sea could not have been true.

I haven't read the article, but I know there's a fine line between scientists finding no evidence that something ever happened and finding evidence against something proving that something could have never happened.

^ Actually, I found it on the International Herald Tribune. But here's the link if you want to read it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/03/afr...b-0403moses.php

i know. i really question some athiest and agnostic people's beliefs though because they believe that jesus isn't real but they believe people like george washington are. however, they back up their arguments by saying how are they supposed to believe in someone they've never met. if i'm not mistaken, i don't think any of them have met george washington either. so aren't they contradicting themselves a bit in saying that?

so if secular jews believe that what do orthodox jews believe?
like mish, i'm not educated on judaism very much.
in christian's eyes, secular jews are halfway correct. the stories in the bible do, in fact, teach lessons. they were written to teach lessons, but they were also written to tell his about history and miracles that jesus performed in the past so that christians wouldn't has to solely believe with only faith.

i actually think that judaism is alot like christianity in some ways. in fact, it seems very reasonable.
so jews don't believe in trinity?
and as far as the new testament goes, jesus didn't change it, he updated it.

i shall read the link you posted and comment later.
edit:i read the article link that you posted. the archaeologist didn't have very many facts to back up his findings, just his opinions.

^ Just look Judaism up on Wikipedia.

A person CANT believe in the Trinity unless they at least believe in Jesus. Jews dont believe in him, so how can they believe in the Trinity? lol.

In a sense he kinda did change it. Before, in the Old Testament, Jews were promised eternal life just for being Jewish. But then with the New Testament, it says you have to believe in Jesus (and do other things, depending on the denomination). So now, instead of a Jew automatically being saved, they have to do all this other crap that they dont believe in to begin with. And if they dont, they're damned. So yeah, God's law/promise changed for them.

now you're including the New Testament. Jews don't believe in the New Testament at all, so if you're going to make a comment about Judiasm and the Bible, you should be referring strictly to the Old Testament.
Non-orthodox jews are not Secular. There are many sects of Judiasm, but the main ones are: Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Hassidic. Reform and Conservative Jews are less observant than Orthodox Jews. The religion doesn't change.


Of course not.
And Jesus had nothing to do with the New Testament. Saul, who later changed his name to Paul, decided to tell the "history" of Jesus.

Other than the Bible, where else has Jesus appeared in, in terms of proof of his existence?

so in the old testament, jews were automatically saved and promised eternal life? that doesn't make much sence. jesus was jewish though, correct?
so they didn't believe that he was the messiah so he didn't have the power to change the law?

there are no jews who believe in the new testament, even just believing them to be stories?
secular jews aren't included in the old testament? i didn't know that.

he is all through history, as well as all the historical figures that people believe in.

No. The Old Testament is the Jew's covenant with God. The New Testament came after Christianity, and has nothing to do with Judiasm, except that it spawned from Judiasm.


I have no idea what you mean.
The sects I listed are recent. They formally started in the 20th century. The Old Testament was written thousands of years before jesus was even born, so I really don't understand what you mean.

I kind of skimmed through the posts, so sorry if someone said this already:

I think what she means that she believes Jesus was a real person, just not the son of God. I'd have to see what she said exactly, but she could be saying that he was just a good person and that he inspired a lot of people to do good things, plus that he was still crucified by the Roman and Pilate and stuff like that.

Quite a few Jews believe this. You could either believe in God or not believe in God and still take this view.

To the post above:

Funny, we just recently talked about this in Confirmation class (I'm Jewish).

Back during biblical times, there was only one form of Judaism, what today we call "Orthodox." Except, back then, they didn't call it that because, well, they didn't need to since there weren't any other sects yet. In the 20th Century, a group of Jews decided to reform the Jewish ideas and laws (hence "Reform Judaism") in order to apply Judaism to the modernisms of today. Then followed Conservative Judaism, which agreed that there needed to be some changes, yet still some preservation of the old ways. So the Jews who decided to not change and felt that they needed to keep the traditional ways were called "Orthodox."

So "secular Jews" and the different sects weren't even around until the 20th Century.

Oh, you mean historical Christian figures?
I don't doubt that he wasn't a real person. I just don't believe the whole "son of God" business, nor do I believe in a Christian God.

???

eh. you answered my question.


well, i was starting to think she was jewish after hearing her arguments, but she said that she didn't have a religion. maybe she was just going for that whole "i'm an atheist emo kid" fad.

no, i mean all historical figures throughout history.
and i'm in no way trying to be rude, but when did this board come about your sole belifs?

Well, God established a covenant with them.

God's coventants are found in the Torah (Jewish Old Testament), and say that the Israelites are His chosen people. Jews are Israelites. I'm pretty sure not all Jews believe they are automatically saved, but some do. It just depends on the denomination.

This topic is incredibly offensive and I think we shouldn't be dealing with this controversy.

Just because I'm putting out my beliefs doesn't mean that this thread is solely about them. Like James (kyrogenix) has said, this topic is offensive, and I find it so. I feel that you're trying to convert all of us to Christianity. I used to be Christian and went to a Christian school for 8 years. I know what the Bible teaches so don't try to pull shit on me. Just because some of us here don't believe in God doesn't mean that you have to go all Bible-thumping on us and try to prove whatever argument we have wrong.

please, keep this to one of your many threads.


and please, let's remember that we all have different opinions. What the bible teaches is different for each of us, and if you find someone else's opinion offensive, then don't post in this topic.

Well, she was the one who attacked me for posting on this thread that I don't believe in a Christian God. How am I not supposed to feel offended by that?

Alright then, I'll keep this in mind for later.

you only find it offensive because i don't agree with you.
i'm not trying to force my belifs on you. it's called a debate. look it up.
and i wasn't attacking you. i don't understand your reasoning. when did i say anything about "posting on this thread that I don't believe in a Christian God"? i was just pointing out that the entire point of the board wasn't about your beliefs as an individual, yet you were trying to make it out as so. seriously. some people get "offended" too easily when people don't agree with them.

I don't care if you're a Christian. I was only offended because you tried to make it seem like I was saying that this whole thread had to do with me. Just because I point my beliefs out doesn't mean that. It's like me telling you that you're making this thread all about you because you're Christian. Big f**king deal.

What exactly are you confused about?




As for the "atheist emo kid fad" comment, I really hope that people are not becoming atheist to be cool. I happen to be an atheist as well, so that just makes me frown.

Debate! Where!?

Good luck with trying to prove a man came back from the dead 2,000 years ago. Come on, don't shift the burden of proof on us; nothing impressive about it.

oh, and so stating my beliefs makes me direct the entire thread so that it was about me is it? So all the opinions I have posted on this thread have also directed the whole thread so that it revolves around me? Posting a news link to the International Herald Tribune also makes it about me. Seriously wtf. You're the one here who wants everyone to give evidence to the stories in the Bible as being "fairytales". And then, instead of actually debating, you just try to revoke every argument by Bible-thumping. I feel that this thread is more of you just trying to convert us to Christianity.

if i wanting to make a thread all about being a christian, i would. no need to worry about that.

i believe some are. i do respect you for standing up for your belifs to be your own person, rather than trying to fit in.[/size=1]

QUOTE

Debate! Where!?

Good luck with trying to prove a man came back from the dead 2,000 years ago. Come on, don't shift the burden of proof on us; nothing impressive about it.

[size=1]and how exactally are you adding to this board?
i'm not trying to prove anything, just debating.
also, when did i say i was trying to impress anyone?

if you feel that, oh well.
i'm not trying to get people to post evidence for the bible being fairytales. i'm trying to see if people can give proof of their belifs.

^ Misoshiru is right though... you are attacking her.

She's contributing just as much as you are.

Seriously, wtf.

just as much as she is attacking me.
but everyone bashes christians nowa'days so i understand.

Oh, did it strike you that maybe you were attacking me first? Maybe that's why I retaliated.

Well if you didn't want people to post evidence about the Bible being a "fairytale", maybe you shouldn't have made that as the topic title.

again, this is called a debate. in a debate, you state your opinions. that's what i'm asking on this board. i just wanted to see if people agreed with her or not and their reasoning so that i could dig into it more.
and honestly, i wasn't trying to be rude when i first said that statement, i just didn't know how to word it. i didn't mean it exactally as it came.

Religion is my most favorite subject to discuss.

Heres what I say.Its ridiculous to believe everything in the bible REALLY happened.Take for instance, noahs ark.Its been scientifically proven that there was no such thing as a global flood.It is, however, possible to be a local flood which couldve been mistaken for a global flood.

Every story in the bible has a realistic problem.The resolutions teach us important life lessons.The characters, setting, stories are fiction.Just like any other bedtime story.

The definition of a fairytale is "a folk story about real-life problems, usually with imaginary characters and magical events".That pretty much sums up the bible for me.

well, obviously some of them are pretty ridiculous to believe. but they do teach lessons on faith. so they do have a meaning.

So some of them are fairytales, then?
That's basically what you just said.

some of them make not have been written to be literal is what i'm saying.
if someone believs that everything in the bible is to be taken literal and not over-exagerating, they're crazy. some of them are symbolic.
for example.
in revelations,

QUOTE

1:20 the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.

this isn't to be taken literal. do you actually think that god was holding seven stars? he wasn't.
no one knows fully what it means, but i'm pretty sure it represnts the seven continents.

Okay, I see what you're saying.

So we can come to the agreement that at least some of the stories in the bible arent to be taken literally. But then who's to say what stories can and cannot be taken literally? If one story is flawed, then that makes the whole book questionable.

Maybe God was over-exaggerating when he said that those who are blasphemous are damned, and that those who dont choose to believe in him are damned too? Hey, it's possible. Personally, I dont believe that anything in the Bible is the word of God, so it doesnt matter to me either way.

I really hope you dont think I'm trying to attack you or anything, because I'm honestly not trying to.